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Kamikuza said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..

i am open to any metrics what is a successful covid response in general, balancing public health with other societal outcomes - but you need to define what that is to measure and compare it.

Deaths and cases are a pretty good metric of the effectiveness of the public health response, because thats sort of the whole point. if more of your population are dying proportionally than others, you're not successful, whatever the underlying factors are.

if the metric is that Florida have had very few restrictions, well we have had less lockdowns and less mandated mask wearing in WA than in Florida. And less cases. So why is Florida the best response?

i'm not bashing Florida (although i am not a fan of the place!), the start of this debate was around people saying Florida had a great response, and I don't think it did on any metric. Happy to listen to arguments as to why it was better, but it seems to be a statement rather than a consideration.

if there was one better response, everyone would have followed it- different states/countries had different start points and experiences and none of them have been that effective as to be the be-all and end-all.

www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/22456544/covid-19-mask-mandates-lockdown-debate-evidence

Deaths due to COVID and cases is only a metric of deaths due to COVID and cases. Public health is more than deaths due to COVID and cases. We could very easily reduce both metrics to zero, y'know...

As this is the metric you've settled on lets stick with it, and taking the worst-case data you presented before (not the "right in the middle" position from Vox)..
If what Florida has done is completely opposite the prevailing "wisdom" then why aren't they leading the negative outcomes.
If restrictions and lockdowns and mask mandates and vaccine mandates and arrests and prosecutions and fines are so effective, why isn't Florida leading the negative outcomes.

That's the point. That's it.

Is it the best policy? No, nobody here is saying that so far as I can tell. But there's a conversation to be had about what may be better than what's been done, and it isn't limited to deaths due to COVID and case numbers.

But by your own selection of metric, it isn't the WORST policy.

Vox can sod off -- they spent half the article declaring it was complicated and unpredictable, then declared that masks make a difference even though all the evidence they'vejust statedmakes nonsense of this. And considering the restaurant mandates are "wear the mask until you're sitting at the table" I'm calling BS on that, and the rest of their spurious correlations and unfounded conjecture. And I doubt they actually read the studies *ugh* thanks for making me read Vox NOT.

I'm not presenting Florida as the worst response. The previous posts that started my rants stated that it had the best response- as i stated in my post, it was, at most, average (again using public health numbers as a simple metric but open to other data). So to answer your question, as to why they are not the worst, they had an average response and got below average results.

Maine for example has a higher median age than Florida and has had a tiny death rate. They didn't have a lot of lockdowns and had a population that seems to be generally happy with their response from both a health and an economic perspective. They put in lots of stuff like early financial support including disaster pay for critical workers, childcare payments, social workers and psychologists to support frontline workers, small business loans and eviction moratoriums.

by comparison, DeSantis literally ordered the counties to do nothing.

The reason they can't support their claims that Florida had the best response to the pandemic is because there is no evidence.

Why do they get so triggered about it?

They should just roll over and say: "You are spot on Ch3mmy, Florida's response was below average. We apologise for getting triggered, truth is we a shuttering at the thought of getting ill from covid".

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tarquin1 said..
Quite a long article but explains what happened here.
www.france24.com/en/europe/20220104-schoolchildren-face-fraught-return-to-class-as-omicron-runs-amok-in-france
The education minister was warned that Omni would rip through schools. They put a pretty hard core vaccination campaign out for kids just as the 2 week school holidays were starting. At the same time only a few new restrictions over the holidays. Everyone went off and had Christmas as normal. Omni spread massively over the holidays. The kids were vaccinated too late and didn't have antibodies. Teachers were told on Sunday night before going back too school of the new protocols. The education minister said there is no point giving teachers FFP2 masks as its too difficult to talk with them and the protocols, distancing etc work fine. He was warned by doctors that Omni was different.
At the same time everyone else is told to work from home for a minimum of 3 days per week and stricter laws are bought in for restaurants etc.
Result, over 9000 classes closed and lots of teachers and kids with Covid. Kids that were vaccinated still got Covid because they didnt have time to build up antibodies, again the education minister was warned about this.
I know the vaccine dosn't stop you from getting it. Maybe it would have been worse?
The education minister keeps saying he will keep schools open at all costs!

Vaccination is so ineffective to prevent spread of Omicron it is irrelevent. Rushing to boost the hell out of kids is dumb. Keeping them out of school is dumb.

Omicron is significantly less dangerous than influenza, the stats are very clear on that. No one shut schools when flu season was on.

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I'm not presenting Florida as the worst response. The previous posts that started my rants stated that it had the best response- as i stated in my post, it was, at most, average (again using public health numbers as a simple metric but open to other data). So to answer your question, as to why they are not the worst, they had an average response and got below average results.

Maine for example has a higher median age than Florida and has had a tiny death rate. They didn't have a lot of lockdowns and had a population that seems to be generally happy with their response from both a health and an economic perspective. They put in lots of stuff like early financial support including disaster pay for critical workers, childcare payments, social workers and psychologists to support frontline workers, small business loans and eviction moratoriums.

by comparison, DeSantis literally ordered the counties to do nothing.

Of the two groups of data you provided, I chose the worst case scenario to base my question to you on.

So why did Maine do "better" than other places with better demographics?

So then doing nothing gives an average result (Florida), and doing lots of lockdowns does worse (New York), and doing a little works better (Maine). What is the mechanism?

That's really what we all want to know, surely? What works when and why...

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myscreenname said..
The reason they can't support their claims that Florida had the best response to the pandemic is because there is no evidence.

Why do they get so triggered about it?

They should just roll over and say: "You are spot on Ch3mmy, Florida's response was below average. We apologise for getting triggered, truth is we a shuttering at the thought of getting ill from covid".

Nice bit of gas lighting there For the second time, I'm pretty sure nobody has claimed Florida had the "best" response...

But ok, lets play your game: Florida has had a below average -- but by no means the worst -- when you look solely at deaths per.

So why is "literally doing nothing" not providing the worst results? And providing better results than the "science" of lockdowns and mask mandates?

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Paradox said..

tarquin1 said..
Quite a long article but explains what happened here.
www.france24.com/en/europe/20220104-schoolchildren-face-fraught-return-to-class-as-omicron-runs-amok-in-france
The education minister was warned that Omni would rip through schools. They put a pretty hard core vaccination campaign out for kids just as the 2 week school holidays were starting. At the same time only a few new restrictions over the holidays. Everyone went off and had Christmas as normal. Omni spread massively over the holidays. The kids were vaccinated too late and didn't have antibodies. Teachers were told on Sunday night before going back too school of the new protocols. The education minister said there is no point giving teachers FFP2 masks as its too difficult to talk with them and the protocols, distancing etc work fine. He was warned by doctors that Omni was different.
At the same time everyone else is told to work from home for a minimum of 3 days per week and stricter laws are bought in for restaurants etc.
Result, over 9000 classes closed and lots of teachers and kids with Covid. Kids that were vaccinated still got Covid because they didnt have time to build up antibodies, again the education minister was warned about this.
I know the vaccine dosn't stop you from getting it. Maybe it would have been worse?
The education minister keeps saying he will keep schools open at all costs!

Vaccination is so ineffective to prevent spread of Omicron it is irrelevent. Rushing to boost the hell out of kids is dumb. Keeping them out of school is dumb.

Omicron is significantly less dangerous than influenza, the stats are very clear on that. No one shut schools when flu season was on.

I've noticed there's a greater focus on advertising case numbers and then bleating about overwhelming hospitals... nobody seems to mention deaths anymore unless it's some outlier that supports the scaremongering.

Looking at the hospitalization numbers for France, there seems to be an uptick recently so it may pay to watch.

But with the revelation that people who go to hospital for other things and test positive in there, or people who catch it while hospitalized, are included in the stats then once again we're left being unable to completely trust official "data"...

3 posts in a row Kamikuza...

In relation to the 'Florida best' response, that was sparked by the NY post article posted by Paradox back on page 17 which essentially stated that Florida had the best outcomes and best response.

In terms of what works when and why? My personal feel is that the concepts of keeping it out early, slowing the spread when it first starts, economic support so people don't panic, vaccinating and preparing your medical systems to cope was a sound strategy. I don't think there are many countries/counties/states that have done that who have really suffered (Hong Kong, WA, Maine, NZ).

The concept of vaccination and slow opening seemed like a pretty good strategy but got tanked by Omicron. That's where WA dropped the ball, I reckon the internal thought process was that we'll get everyone to 90%, and then we can open up and there will be a few thousand cases and it is basically over. Now we are with our pants down with no exit strategy for Omicron.

With the benefit of hindsight - lock borders early, increase social support services, invest massively in healthcare systems and accelerated graduate nurse programs etc, put in place moderate social distancing measures and controls, open up in as controlled manner as you can and try and sustainably manage the case increase.

WA could have spent billions on healthcare and being sitting around with empty hospitals and bored staff if they wanted to, but the prevailing wisdom was we could vaccinate our way out of it and it would all be over by the time we opened up.

To reiterate previous positions, 100% supportive of vaccination, my whole family is vaccinated, I don't know anyone who has had an adverse reaction (I work in industry where everyone has to), but it doesn't look like it is helping as an exit strategy for Omicron.

I for one can't wait for booster #4 to roll around.
Imagine how quiet the line ups are going to be.
All the cheap, hardly used 2nd hand gear coming up for sale in deceased estates.
oh what joy

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..
3 posts in a row Kamikuza...

In relation to the 'Florida best' response, that was sparked by the NY post article posted by Paradox back on page 17 which essentially stated that Florida had the best outcomes and best response.

In terms of what works when and why? My personal feel is that the concepts of keeping it out early, slowing the spread when it first starts, economic support so people don't panic, vaccinating and preparing your medical systems to cope was a sound strategy. I don't think there are many countries/counties/states that have done that who have really suffered (Hong Kong, WA, Maine, NZ).

The concept of vaccination and slow opening seemed like a pretty good strategy but got tanked by Omicron. That's where WA dropped the ball, I reckon the internal thought process was that we'll get everyone to 90%, and then we can open up and there will be a few thousand cases and it is basically over. Now we are with our pants down with no exit strategy for Omicron.

With the benefit of hindsight - lock borders early, increase social support services, invest massively in healthcare systems and accelerated graduate nurse programs etc, put in place moderate social distancing measures and controls, open up in as controlled manner as you can and try and sustainably manage the case increase.

WA could have spent billions on healthcare and being sitting around with empty hospitals and bored staff if they wanted to, but the prevailing wisdom was we could vaccinate our way out of it and it would all be over by the time we opened up.

To reiterate previous positions, 100% supportive of vaccination, my whole family is vaccinated, I don't know anyone who has had an adverse reaction (I work in industry where everyone has to), but it doesn't look like it is helping as an exit strategy for Omicron.

That's because I tend to only check the forum once or twice a day, rather than sit there pushing refresh, waiting for replies

That's paradox's problem then. Your problem is explaining Florida isn't the worst despite doing "literally nothing"

Those are the general goals, but it's the specific details that matter.
NZ... has intentionally closed its borders even to its citizens which is not a good outcome at all.

Again, I'm assuming you're focusing on case numbers. So what if the case numbers are high?

Show us the data.
"Invest in healthcare" how? The UK built a bunch of hospitals and they all closed a few months later without being used. They spent millions on tracking software they never used. Details matter, because "it seems like a good idea" seldom pans out to be a good idea when you look at the actual data.

I'm 100% supportive of sensible vaccination strategies, 100% against unscientific mandates and government overreach.

If people aren't being put in hospital at a greater rate than things we were fine with until now ie. the flu, then why do we care about case numbers?

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Kamikuza said..

That's because I tend to only check the forum once or twice a day, rather than sit there pushing refresh, waiting for replies

That's paradox's problem then. Your problem is explaining Florida isn't the worst despite doing "literally nothing"

Those are the general goals, but it's the specific details that matter.
NZ... has intentionally closed its borders even to its citizens which is not a good outcome at all.

Again, I'm assuming you're focusing on case numbers. So what if the case numbers are high?

Show us the data.
"Invest in healthcare" how? The UK built a bunch of hospitals and they all closed a few months later without being used. They spent millions on tracking software they never used. Details matter, because "it seems like a good idea" seldom pans out to be a good idea when you look at the actual data.

I'm 100% supportive of sensible vaccination strategies, 100% against unscientific mandates and government overreach.

If people aren't being put in hospital at a greater rate than things we were fine with until now ie. the flu, then why do we care about case numbers?

If you leave this thread for a day how can you keep up with the latest in ivermectin/vitamin D/hydroxychlorquine/cloth masks/iodine snorting. That's just dangerous mate.

Why isn't Florida the worst? I think I've explained that already - Florida had a below-average response and got below-average results. Florida isn't the worst because other states did crap things as well, or other factors worked to Florida's benefit. For example, most of Florida is in low-density living without large multigenerational shared households, the weather is warmer which means people spend more time outdoors, there is less public transport infrastructure so more people own and drive cars rather than use taxis or uber.

In general, the US strategy went to hell because it started late and turned into a partisan debate rather than a health response.

I am not really inclined to get the data to rank individual health responses by country/state, I noted above my personal feel on it, and in terms of the data for Florida have already provided that.

Ref - invest in healthcare, I guess my comment was thinking around the WA scenario, where our response times for ED are woeful state-wide, and this seemed like a perfect excuse to get a huge amount of funding into more beds and more staff. Not just for pandemics but in general to increase the capacity of the healthcare system so there is significant capacity to surge. Improves working conditions, lets people take leave, increases general population wellbeing. it looks to me that covid controls are in place for longer than is necessary and at a higher level because a lot of nations have not invested in healthcare so their healthcare systems can't respond to even small increases because they are overloaded.

I don't think we're on different sides of this debate, I agree that case numbers don't matter - the levels of seriously ill people and deaths are what matter. If you can control that effectively without having to put in force draconian social measures then that would be the right response.

I never fully understood the need to mandate vaccination, it could have been incentivised easily - for example, if you get a vaccination you don't pay the medicare levy. Then there is a benefit to those who choose to do so and no negative impact for those who don't.

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eppo said..
Well let's see you unqualified douches try and pull some more irrational crap out of your holes with yet another world acclaimed and published scientist - the inventor of the MRNA technologies used for these so called vaccines (who has just been banned from twitter go figure).

open.spotify.com/episode/3SCsueX2bZdbEzRtKOCEyT?si=JS3UVVlUQ8GtKG9w_d4pdw&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A4rOoJ6Egrf8K2IrywzwOMk

honestly if you don't think something fishy is going on then you are either dead, blind or just down right stupid.

now listen carefully formulanova (however you spell your weird name) I don't want have to correct you twice again mis representing what is actually being said. Listen dude . someone way smarter, at the forefront of all of this, with way more runs in the board is speaking..

Hey! I am an unqualified douche, with a bit more time right now. Can I play this game?

It is in serious doubt that Peter Malone is 'the inventor of mRNA technologies'. He has contributed, as have hundreds of other researchers, but 'the' inventor? No. Yet he seems to call himself that and likes to be interviewed by people that don't challenge that self-appointed title.

This seems impartial:
healthfeedback.org/claimreview/the-development-of-mrna-vaccines-was-a-collaborative-effort-robert-malone-contributed-to-their-development-but-he-is-not-their-inventor/

As with lots of things, when you start with the premise that 'something is fishy' you can loop back to all sorts of things that add to your view of what you already believe, and try and bolster your case. It doesn't mean you are right though.

Like science, a lot of life is about interpreting the information that people tell you. You listen to it, evaluate it, see if it makes sense. If you really care about it, you go looking for information to corroborate it or disagree with it, and evaluate that.

I think some conspiracy theorists would listen to some guy at a pub on what he says, as long as it agrees with what they want to believe. If the same guy at the pub thinks that its a genuine pandemic, he is not worth listening to. If the guy at the pub starts going on about how it is clearly a conspiracy by the government and big pharma, then anything he says is clearly correct and you are an idiot for not believing it.

I hate being 'corrected', twice even, but when its from someone that can't even read the transcript, and filters out all the references to conspiracy in someone's 3 hour interview, I don't know what to think. I am not even sure what 'corrected' means as I have yet to read any correction, just a claim that I have been 'corrected'. Is this CT nutter speak for 'you are wrong, nerr, nerr, nerr?'

I must go now, I am due to receive an award for being the inventor of yellow and bicycles. Thank you.

This guy understands

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Flying Dutchman said..
People are losing the plot in general.

Has there been any confirmed cases of people catching covid twice?

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TonyAbbott said..

Flying Dutchman said..
People are losing the plot in general.

Has there been any confirmed cases of people catching covid twice?

Yes. Not many though.

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TonyAbbott said..

Flying Dutchman said..
People are losing the plot in general.

Has there been any confirmed cases of people catching covid twice?

This guy seems to have caught it twice.
www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/novak-djokovic-court-documents-confirmed-he-tested-positive-for-covid-in-december/news-story/8bf69b691cc5734c6c08a2d6e4120351

Bullturn has it. Friedburg too.

Waiting for the day Mao Clown will catch Rona then his mistress in this forum will bring him some soup...

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Tequila ! said..
Bullturn has it. Friedburg too.

Waiting for the day Mao Clown will catch Rona then his mistress in this forum will bring him some soup...

I laugh at kooks who are so caught up in the name calling they have learnt from all the conspiracy propaganda that they worship

The self proclaimed doctor and you being the biggest sheep

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..
1. If you leave this thread for a day how can you keep up with the latest in ivermectin/vitamin D/hydroxychlorquine/cloth masks/iodine snorting. That's just dangerous mate.

2. Why isn't Florida the worst? I think I've explained that already - Florida had a below-average response and got below-average results. Florida isn't the worst because other states did crap things as well, or other factors worked to Florida's benefit. For example, most of Florida is in low-density living without large multigenerational shared households, the weather is warmer which means people spend more time outdoors, there is less public transport infrastructure so more people own and drive cars rather than use taxis or uber.

3. In general, the US strategy went to hell because it started late and turned into a partisan debate rather than a health response.

I am not really inclined to get the data to rank individual health responses by country/state, I noted above my personal feel on it, and in terms of the data for Florida have already provided that.

4, Ref - invest in healthcare, I guess my comment was thinking around the WA scenario, where our response times for ED are woeful state-wide, and this seemed like a perfect excuse to get a huge amount of funding into more beds and more staff. Not just for pandemics but in general to increase the capacity of the healthcare system so there is significant capacity to surge. Improves working conditions, lets people take leave, increases general population wellbeing. it looks to me that covid controls are in place for longer than is necessary and at a higher level because a lot of nations have not invested in healthcare so their healthcare systems can't respond to even small increases because they are overloaded.

5. I don't think we're on different sides of this debate, I agree that case numbers don't matter - the levels of seriously ill people and deaths are what matter. If you can control that effectively without having to put in force draconian social measures then that would be the right response.

6. I never fully understood the need to mandate vaccination, it could have been incentivised easily - for example, if you get a vaccination you don't pay the medicare levy. Then there is a benefit to those who choose to do so and no negative impact for those who don't.

1. Doesn't bother me, and I don't want to turn into lotofwind who has a pathological need to comment in every thread like this. I might scan the thread to see if there's anything interesting but knowing I just can't keep up with the thousands of posts by loto, I just pass on it.

2. But Florida is not worse than other states that did the "best" responses, andwhy isn't the ranking by states not related to those that did progressively worse responses? So clearly "best" responses don't guarantee the best outcomes. I don't think you've explained it at all, although now you've acknowledgethat there are factors beyond "lockdown/mandate masks" that affect results. So that's a step in the right direction

3. Yeah, but Trump wanted to close borders immediately and the democratic process ie. Democrat bipartisan retards blocked that as "racist". Then they went on TV to state they wouldn't take Trump's vaccine. Then they promised that if you vote for us, we'll have sorted in 90 days. Ho ho ho.

I feel you're wrong about Florida

4. How are response times before of the pandemic? Dunno about Australia but I agree, health care funding needs to be a lot better. Yet another reason I'm happy to stay here.

5. But ... that's what Florida did

6. They tried that in NZ -- bags of cold KFC and petrol vouchers. All that does is incentivize holding out for betterhandouts.

If one is vaccinated, with the protection from serious illness and death that provides,what does it matter if someone else isn't? The burden of risk is on the unvaccinated and that's their choice, same as what they do in their free time.

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chrispy said..

Tequila ! said..
Bullturn has it. Friedburg too.

Waiting for the day Mao Clown will catch Rona then his mistress in this forum will bring him some soup...

I laugh at kooks who are so caught up in the name calling they have learnt from all the conspiracy propaganda that they worship

The self proclaimed doctor and you being the biggest sheep

Pull up your head mate...Mao Clown want to sit down in a chair a bit

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Tequila ! said..

chrispy said..

Tequila ! said..
Bullturn has it. Friedburg too.

Waiting for the day Mao Clown will catch Rona then his mistress in this forum will bring him some soup...

I laugh at kooks who are so caught up in the name calling they have learnt from all the conspiracy propaganda that they worship

The self proclaimed doctor and you being the biggest sheep

Pull up your head mate...Mao Clown want to sit down in a chair a bit

Bahaha that's all I expected from a sheep

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chrispy said..

Tequila ! said..

chrispy said..

Tequila ! said..
Bullturn has it. Friedburg too.

Waiting for the day Mao Clown will catch Rona then his mistress in this forum will bring him some soup...

I laugh at kooks who are so caught up in the name calling they have learnt from all the conspiracy propaganda that they worship

The self proclaimed doctor and you being the biggest sheep

Pull up your head mate...Mao Clown want to sit down in a chair a bit

Bahaha that's all I expected from a sheep

No probs...glad I make a clown happy.

BTW 5th of Feb is coming. Borders Open.
Tadaa

Does anyone know if our prime minister Mr scomo will be attending the cricket on Monday like he did on Friday or will he be addressing Our country on the current Disaster situation we are currently experiencing ?? ??

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southace said..
Does anyone know if our prime minister Mr scomo will be attending the cricket on Monday like he did on Friday or will he be addressing Our country on the current Disaster situation we are currently experiencing ?? ??

Which current disaster news item dominating the headlines?
The 100,000 vaccinated Aussies getting Covid every day or that unvaccinated elite athlete without Covid struggling to get in?

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Flying Dutchman said..

southace said..
Does anyone know if our prime minister Mr scomo will be attending the cricket on Monday like he did on Friday or will he be addressing Our country on the current Disaster situation we are currently experiencing ?? ??

Which current disaster news item dominating the headlines?
The 100,000 vaccinated Aussies getting Covid every day or that unvaccinated elite athlete without Covid struggling to get in?

The one the rest of the country is currently experiencing apart from WA. Everyone in Regional towns around me are absolutely crapping themselves scarred hell. And shops are running out of supplies and many hospitality closing there doors.

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southace said..
The one the rest of the country is currently experiencing apart from WA. Everyone in Regional towns around me are absolutely crapping themselves scarred hell. And shops are running out of supplies and many hospitality closing there doors.

It's unfortunate mate.... 2 years of spreading fear by the media & authorities has primed the population to freak the fark out without understanding the actual risks. Dunny paper has run out in some supermarkets over east again.

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Flying Dutchman said..

southace said..
The one the rest of the country is currently experiencing apart from WA. Everyone in Regional towns around me are absolutely crapping themselves scarred hell. And shops are running out of supplies and many hospitality closing there doors.

It's unfortunate mate.... 2 years of spreading fear by the media & authorities has primed the population to freak the fark out without understanding the actual risks. Dunny paper has run out in some supermarkets over east again.

Mate it's not a conspiracy, other country's are shutting down we are opening up because we are 6 months behind down under. WA should keep there borders closed and filter covid free people to enter when they do open. The way they just opened up free for all in the rest of Australia is a disgrace. It was working reasonably well the way it was set up previously.

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southace said..
Mate it's not a conspiracy, other country's are shutting down we are opening up because we are 6 months behind down under. WA should keep there borders closed and filter covid free people to enter when they do open. The way they just opened up free for all in the rest of Australia is a disgrace. It was working reasonably well the way it was set up previously.

I didn't mention a conspiracy.... it's what's been happening, a lot of fear has been spread around the world for various reasons including through people with good intentions. What we are witnessing is incompetency & the fact that nature will win out in the end. Humans can't control everything.

Also if you look at the Media's business model it's obviously all about getting the consumers attention so they sell advertising space. Before it was Trump & now Covid... the media companies love it!

And yes we are definately behind in Australia. I still talk to people today in Australia that think you can't spread Covid if you're vaccinated.

Great interview with Professor Mattias Demet elaborating on the mechanisms of mass formation.(That's the same phenomenon that brought about Nazism and Stalin's atrocities amongst others).
Sorry about the platform. I realise some of the Phiistines on here find it unacceptable unless it's spruiking their bias.