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Mr Milk said..

Kamikuza said..

Mr Milk said..

Kamikuza said..

Mr Milk said..
Explain smallpox then. It was around for thousands of years and kills about 30% of its hosts. I half saw something a few months ago that suggested it was a less lethal disease until some time in the last few centuries.
As long as women have plenty of kids it doesn't matter if a few diseases kill plenty of people. That's how evolution works

It's not a respiratory infection.

We went over all this months back, didn't we?

So what if it's not respiratory. The proposal is that viruses evolve to get along in harmony with the host organism. Nothing about where it enters the body

It's about where it resides, and the traits of the virus.

Some viruses tend to deescalate themselves as they spread. Better?

It's still conjecture

On whose part? The medical professionals who study these things and hold these opinions based on observation and research?

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myscreenname said..

Flying Dutchman said..
I like how you think power lifters are roid free athletes.

Is making up stories and having fun at the expense of the dead helping your mate with the dicky chest?

Is failing to acknowledge the risks of the vaccine helping... At all?

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Kamikuza said..
Is failing to acknowledge the risks of the vaccine helping... At all?

I acknowledge the risks, as I've experienced side effects of the vaccines personally.

After my Moderna booster last week my arm hurt when I raised it above 10 oclock.

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Mr Milk said..

psychojoe said..
I can't remember where Mr. Milk posted about synthesizing vitamin K2 for vegans. Surely it was this thread, the new general everything thread. Can't find it in any medical journals and I'm wondering which menaquinone they've achieved.

False memories created by an alien visitation perhaps?
Maybe you're referring to the link I gave you a few days ago to Impossible Foods technique for synthesising heme from soy via fungus and fermentation

impossiblefoods.com/au-en/heme

thanks

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Isn't Florida a sunny state that people move to to retire and die; a bit like a retirement village.
Without checking facts I'm willing to suggest that retirement villages fair worse in terms of health outcomes.

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myscreenname said..

Kamikuza said..
Is failing to acknowledge the risks of the vaccine helping... At all?

I acknowledge the risks, as I've experienced side effects of the vaccines personally.

After my Moderna booster last week my arm hurt when I raised it above 10 oclock.

A boo-boo on your arm indicating the vaccine is working isn't myopericarditis though is it.

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psychojoe said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Isn't Florida a sunny state that people move to to retire and die; a bit like a retirement village.
Without checking facts I'm willing to suggest that retirement villages fair worse in terms of health outcomes.

Yes, but it's warmer and they get more sunshine. There are factors involved that make such reductionists arguments as "top ten!" spurious.

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myscreenname said..
Is making up stories and having fun at the expense of the dead helping your mate with the dicky chest?

I'm not making fun of dead people. That's just wrong mate.

I'm just giving one possible solution as to why a 23 year old male with 2 vaccinations dies with Covid. The mainstream media are unlikely to report anything like this. Steroids, vaccines & Covid all support inflammation. Add the 3 together & it's not a huge stretch that some people could be affected. I'm not saying this young man did steroids however it would be naive to completely rule it out since he was a world class power lifter & steroids are very common in that sport.

Even just the vaccines will cause inflammation hence why you're seeing many young men getting heart problems & some dying.

And may I ask you kindly to stop questioning if I'm helping my 2 friends with 'dicky heart' due to adverse reactions to the vaccine. It's getting tiresome.

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Kamikuza said..

psychojoe said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Isn't Florida a sunny state that people move to to retire and die; a bit like a retirement village.
Without checking facts I'm willing to suggest that retirement villages fair worse in terms of health outcomes.

Yes, but it's warmer and they get more sunshine. There are factors involved that make such reductionists arguments as "top ten!" spurious.

Agree that it is difficult to compare different states, countries, demographics - but in terms of the metrics of cumulative cases and cumulative deaths, labelling the response of Florida as a success is unjustified. It is objectively below average (at least from the health perspective).

Select to expand quote

Kamikuza said..

psychojoe said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Isn't Florida a sunny state that people move to to retire and die; a bit like a retirement village.
Without checking facts I'm willing to suggest that retirement villages fair worse in terms of health outcomes.

Yes, but it's warmer and they get more sunshine. There are factors involved that make such reductionists arguments as "top ten!" spurious.

I think lotofwind is right..... you guys need to buy some more straws to clutch on to.

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Flying Dutchman said..
I'm not making fun of dead people. Don't be silly. I'm just giving one possible solution as to why a 23 year old male with 2 vaccinations dies with Covid. The mainstream media are unlikely to report anything like this.

Just thinking out loud.

I knew this roadie who had a dickie heart, but he got it from taking large amounts of low grade, yellowish, trucky speed. Are you certain your mate never dabbled with hard drugs?

Lots of people experimented with drugs in their youth.

parents.au.reachout.com/common-concerns/everyday-issues/drugs-and-teenagers#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20Aussies%20first%20try,cent%20of%20the%20general%20population).

Select to expand quote

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Florida currently sits at 16th on a per capita basis for COVID deaths in the US. As others have pointed out it is a large, densely packed population, much of them elderly. Considering many states are much less densely populated 16th is certainly not a position to suggest anything they did overtly influenced the death rate.

There are lots of factors involved to compare states and I never said that their approach was any better for reducing deaths, only that other states strategies involving hard lockdowns and restrictions plainly gave no benefit to reducing the death rate and resulted in significant other harm. Many of the them are higher on the list.

The point was that the data shows absolutely no evidence of benefit for hard lockdowns and restrictions and closures of schools etc etc.

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

www.flgov.com/2021/10/22/floridas-september-job-growth-rate-is-three-times-faster-than-the-nation/

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myscreenname said..
Lots of people experimented with drugs in their youth.

All past illegal & legal drug & alcohol use has to taken into account when looking at health outcomes I agree with you.

Select to expand quote

CH3MTR4IL5 said..

Kamikuza said..

psychojoe said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Isn't Florida a sunny state that people move to to retire and die; a bit like a retirement village.
Without checking facts I'm willing to suggest that retirement villages fair worse in terms of health outcomes.

Yes, but it's warmer and they get more sunshine. There are factors involved that make such reductionists arguments as "top ten!" spurious.

Agree that it is difficult to compare different states, countries, demographics - but in terms of the metrics of cumulative cases and cumulative deaths, labelling the response of Florida as a success is unjustified. It is objectively below average (at least from the health perspective).

Do live in FLA?

They fared much better than NY. No lockdowns, kids where never barred from school etc.

Got family there and speak w them everyday.

Select to expand quote

myscreenname said..

Kamikuza said..

psychojoe said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Isn't Florida a sunny state that people move to to retire and die; a bit like a retirement village.
Without checking facts I'm willing to suggest that retirement villages fair worse in terms of health outcomes.

Yes, but it's warmer and they get more sunshine. There are factors involved that make such reductionists arguments as "top ten!" spurious.

I think lotofwind is right..... you guys need to buy some more straws to clutch on to.

Oh really? So how do you account for the different outcomes? Surely Florida and Texas should be first and second place in deaths per?

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..

Kamikuza said..

psychojoe said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Isn't Florida a sunny state that people move to to retire and die; a bit like a retirement village.
Without checking facts I'm willing to suggest that retirement villages fair worse in terms of health outcomes.

Yes, but it's warmer and they get more sunshine. There are factors involved that make such reductionists arguments as "top ten!" spurious.

Agree that it is difficult to compare different states, countries, demographics - but in terms of the metrics of cumulative cases and cumulative deaths, labelling the response of Florida as a success is unjustified. It is objectively below average (at least from the health perspective).

We're doing averages now?

So how do you account for the rest of the states that are above average that did the opposite of Florida?

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myscreenname said..

Flying Dutchman said..
I'm not making fun of dead people. Don't be silly. I'm just giving one possible solution as to why a 23 year old male with 2 vaccinations dies with Covid. The mainstream media are unlikely to report anything like this.

Just thinking out loud.

I knew this roadie who had a dickie heart, but he got it from taking large amounts of low grade, yellowish, trucky speed. Are you certain your mate never dabbled with hard drugs?

Lots of people experimented with drugs in their youth.

parents.au.reachout.com/common-concerns/everyday-issues/drugs-and-teenagers#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20Aussies%20first%20try,cent%20of%20the%20general%20population).

Clutching at straws, he said

Some of these treatments are banned in Australia.

See 'Conclusion'

www.cureus.com/articles/76496-therapies-to-prevent-progression-of-covid-19-including-hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin-zinc-and-vitamin-d3-with-or-without-intravenous-vitamin-c-an-international-multicenter-randomized-trial

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Mr Milk said..

psychojoe said..
I can't remember where Mr. Milk posted about synthesizing vitamin K2 for vegans. Surely it was this thread, the new general everything thread. Can't find it in any medical journals and I'm wondering which menaquinone they've achieved.

False memories created by an alien visitation perhaps?
Maybe you're referring to the link I gave you a few days ago to Impossible Foods technique for synthesising heme from soy via fungus and fermentation

impossiblefoods.com/au-en/heme

I think it's fair to suggest that they've minced their words more than their product in an attempt to fool vegans into believing that non-heme iron derived from soy is the same as heme iron derived from animals. This will only lead to further malnutrition in vegans.
Also, they didn't bother to touch on the volume of estrogenic isoflavones in soy, while most vegans rely heavily on soy, unless they're menopausal they probably shouldn't, and the studies that do exist regarding menopausal benefits have mixed results for that point anyway.

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Kamikuza said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..

Kamikuza said..

psychojoe said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Isn't Florida a sunny state that people move to to retire and die; a bit like a retirement village.
Without checking facts I'm willing to suggest that retirement villages fair worse in terms of health outcomes.

Yes, but it's warmer and they get more sunshine. There are factors involved that make such reductionists arguments as "top ten!" spurious.

Agree that it is difficult to compare different states, countries, demographics - but in terms of the metrics of cumulative cases and cumulative deaths, labelling the response of Florida as a success is unjustified. It is objectively below average (at least from the health perspective).

We're doing averages now?

So how do you account for the rest of the states that are above average that did the opposite of Florida?

I am not sure what you mean. I think the states that performed above average from a health perspective that did the opposite of Florida speak for themselves.

as i noted I am looking at the cumulative death rate and cumulative case rate - from the perspective of a health response, Florida has performed poorly.

I acknowledge that FlyingDutchman / Tequila is looking at the impacts of other factors in terms of personal restrictions and job impacts - but from the data I don't see how you can call the health response successful.

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Tequila ! said..

Do live in FLA?

They fared much better than NY. No lockdowns, kids where never barred from school etc.

Got family there and speak w them everyday.

Again, using the metric of total cases per capita and deaths per capita, they haven't performed better overall.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/new-york/36/

This is really the point I am taking issue with. If you're going to say something is 'better', then define it with data. I also have family who were in Florida (snowbirds), and they went back to Canada because they couldn't get vaccinations for months and the case numbers were way higher.

In WA, I have had no impacts to my life, no lockdowns, no kids barred from school, and have made more money than in other years. So is WA response better than Florida? For me and my family, sure. For others, maybe not. Does it mean that the government did the right thing, or was it just because we have a sparse population who don't live in high-density housing and an outdoor lifestyle?

Florida's economy has improved markedly, but that is also because it was the most affected at the start of the pandemic.

www.thecentersquare.com/florida/florida-economy-ranked-highest-in-its-exposure-to-covid-19-disruptions/article_0eb1077e-b091-11ea-857e-4f5f2209307a.html

Latest discussion on Omicron from Zogg. He reinforces a lot of what I have said.

Government intervention is now useless. Restrictions, vaccine passports, cloth masks and even vaccinations he now says are irrelevent to public health and make no difference to anyone but individuals. It's compelling stuff.

Omi is a cold/flu level event. R0 of 10 he reckons, that is a huge transmissibility.

fb.watch/anxouZL4YK/

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..

Kamikuza said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..

Kamikuza said..

psychojoe said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
I know you just make stuff up to fit your narrative, but for the sake of any sane people still reading this, Florida has consistently performed worse than the US average and has always been in the top 10 for cases and deaths (per capita as well as outright).

Even in the most generous reading of the data, 85% of US states are doing better than Florida.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/united-states/00/

www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2022/01/03/covid-florida-omicron-list-states-virus-spreading-fastest/9076265002/

Isn't Florida a sunny state that people move to to retire and die; a bit like a retirement village.
Without checking facts I'm willing to suggest that retirement villages fair worse in terms of health outcomes.

Yes, but it's warmer and they get more sunshine. There are factors involved that make such reductionists arguments as "top ten!" spurious.

Agree that it is difficult to compare different states, countries, demographics - but in terms of the metrics of cumulative cases and cumulative deaths, labelling the response of Florida as a success is unjustified. It is objectively below average (at least from the health perspective).

We're doing averages now?

So how do you account for the rest of the states that are above average that did the opposite of Florida?

I am not sure what you mean. I think the states that performed above average from a health perspective that did the opposite of Florida speak for themselves.

as i noted I am looking at the cumulative death rate and cumulative case rate - from the perspective of a health response, Florida has performed poorly.

I acknowledge that FlyingDutchman / Tequila is looking at the impacts of other factors in terms of personal restrictions and job impacts - but from the data I don't see how you can call the health response successful.

Now it's health outcomes.

If what Florida did was the opposite of what "above average" started did, why is Florida not number one in "poor health outcomes" ie. deaths per? And why are states that did "the correct thing" like NY performing worse than Florida?

Why have you chosen that metric as the sole determinate of a successful public health policy?

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..

Tequila ! said..

Do live in FLA?

They fared much better than NY. No lockdowns, kids where never barred from school etc.

Got family there and speak w them everyday.

Again, using the metric of total cases per capita and deaths per capita, they haven't performed better overall.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/new-york/36/

This is really the point I am taking issue with. If you're going to say something is 'better', then define it with data. I also have family who were in Florida (snowbirds), and they went back to Canada because they couldn't get vaccinations for months and the case numbers were way higher.

In WA, I have had no impacts to my life, no lockdowns, no kids barred from school, and have made more money than in other years. So is WA response better than Florida? For me and my family, sure. For others, maybe not. Does it mean that the government did the right thing, or was it just because we have a sparse population who don't live in high-density housing and an outdoor lifestyle?

Florida's economy has improved markedly, but that is also because it was the most affected at the start of the pandemic.

www.thecentersquare.com/florida/florida-economy-ranked-highest-in-its-exposure-to-covid-19-disruptions/article_0eb1077e-b091-11ea-857e-4f5f2209307a.html

"Data"
What data would convince you that focusing solely on deaths gives no indication of successful public health policies?

And what exactly and how was that survey measuring?

i am open to any metrics what is a successful covid response in general, balancing public health with other societal outcomes - but you need to define what that is to measure and compare it.

Deaths and cases are a pretty good metric of the effectiveness of the public health response, because thats sort of the whole point. if more of your population are dying proportionally than others, you're not successful, whatever the underlying factors are.

if the metric is that Florida have had very few restrictions, well we have had less lockdowns and less mandated mask wearing in WA than in Florida. And less cases. So why is Florida the best response?

i'm not bashing Florida (although i am not a fan of the place!), the start of this debate was around people saying Florida had a great response, and I don't think it did on any metric. Happy to listen to arguments as to why it was better, but it seems to be a statement rather than a consideration.

if there was one better response, everyone would have followed it- different states/countries had different start points and experiences and none of them have been that effective as to be the be-all and end-all.

www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/22456544/covid-19-mask-mandates-lockdown-debate-evidence

tldr for the link above - indoor mask mandates most effective in reducing transmission, then reducing people's mobility.

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..

Tequila ! said..

Do live in FLA?

They fared much better than NY. No lockdowns, kids where never barred from school etc.

Got family there and speak w them everyday.

Again, using the metric of total cases per capita and deaths per capita, they haven't performed better overall.

data.jacksonville.com/coronavirus-curve/florida/12/new-york/36/

This is really the point I am taking issue with. If you're going to say something is 'better', then define it with data. I also have family who were in Florida (snowbirds), and they went back to Canada because they couldn't get vaccinations for months and the case numbers were way higher.

In WA, I have had no impacts to my life, no lockdowns, no kids barred from school, and have made more money than in other years. So is WA response better than Florida? For me and my family, sure. For others, maybe not. Does it mean that the government did the right thing, or was it just because we have a sparse population who don't live in high-density housing and an outdoor lifestyle?

Florida's economy has improved markedly, but that is also because it was the most affected at the start of the pandemic.

www.thecentersquare.com/florida/florida-economy-ranked-highest-in-its-exposure-to-covid-19-disruptions/article_0eb1077e-b091-11ea-857e-4f5f2209307a.html

Sheepies +1
Anti-vaxxers -1

We are winning the war on the spread of disinformation. On that note anyone know where I can go to get another booster?

Select to expand quote

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
i'm not bashing Florida (although i am not a fan of the place!), the start of this debate was around people saying Florida had a great response, and I don't think it did on any metric. Happy to listen to arguments as to why it was better, but it seems to be a statement rather than a consideration.

if there was one better response, everyone would have followed it- different states/countries had different start points and experiences and none of them have been that effective as to be the be-all and end-all.

www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/22456544/covid-19-mask-mandates-lockdown-debate-evidence

The statements have been that Florida's response has been better than many others, not because it had less deaths. It didn't, it had a statistically similar death rate from COVID than elsewhere in the US.

Florida's response is considered better because the measures they put in place to address covid were no where near as restrictive as elsewhere and achieved a similar result. The lack of restrictions meant significantly less interference in all aspects of peoples lives and avoided much of the costs to lives, mental and physical health, freedom and economy severly effected by those that pursued strict ongoing lockdown.

No one is comparing Florida with WA. WA is an isolationist state in normal times.

That article from Vox is reasonably good, but I can't agree with the view on masks. I have seen no study which gives any statistically relevent benefit to cloth masks. Expert opinion: www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

caldronpool.com/heres-a-list-of-the-published-side-effects-of-lockdowns/

My wife is a teacher here in France. She did 13 hours overtime this week. There are so many teachers that either have Covid or are direct contact. Same with my kids. Going to 1 out of 5 classes per day. Over 9000 classes closed in France now.
So although not as bad as Delta health wise its definitely messing with "the system".
They are expecting 500 000 cases a day next week.

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Paradox said..

That article from Vox is reasonably good, but I can't agree with the view on masks. I have seen no study which gives any statistically relevent benefit to cloth masks. Expert opinion: www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

caldronpool.com/heres-a-list-of-the-published-side-effects-of-lockdowns/

the references don't entirely support the commentary though- cloth masks do reduce the amount of viral material expelled to a significant degree. But the bigger point is that surgical masks do work, and much better than cloth masks.

www.nejm.org/do/10.1056/NEJMdo005745/full/?requestType=popUp&relatedArticle=10.1056%2FNEJMc2007800

It does feel like cloth masks are a 'hey this is better than nothing', rather than an actual response. I am surprised that there is not more push to wear surgical masks now that they are readily available.

enviro impact vs health benefit. depends on whether you're a bird or not i guess