Select to expand quote

marck140 said..
Hi recently ordered the 980 and just wanted to get some insight. I've read about the "takuma pump" in several forums but haven't found a good description of it. What is the technique? How is it different than pumping a lift setup? Also what tail do most find the best fit for pumping efficiency with the 980? Thanks!

I have the Takuma 980, 1095HA and 1210. I also have the Lift 120.

For all the foils, I use the same technique, but my pump cadence changes. I use a faster cadence with the 980. For the 980, my favorite tail was the KDMaui classic 13.5" tail. It's looser and pumps better than the stock tail that came with the 980

With the 980, I use two of the Takuma baseplate shims (thick part in the back). The 1210, one baseplate shim. With the 1095 and Lift 120, I ride with flat baseplate.

When I started riding the 980, I used the 2x baseplate shims because that seemed to be the consensus and it did feel better. Check out KDMaui's tuning guide, kdfoils.myshopify.com/blogs/foil-info/hydrofoil-balance-tuning

Do you have a board with a lot of rocker Jonnie?
Aboard with a lot of rocker needs one or more baseplate shims, a board without doesn't...

And do you shim the tails?

Select to expand quote

Camarillo said..
Do you have a board with a lot of rocker Jonnie?
Aboard with a lot of rocker needs one or more baseplate shims, a board without doesn't...

And do you shim the tails?

My favorite board is an Amundson Super Model 4'4", no tail rocker.

With the Takuma 75cm carbon mast, I don't shim the tails.

With the Lift 120, I shim the tail depending on the mast that I use. When I use the longer lift mast, 32", I add shim to increase negative angle (leading edge pointing more downwards) to prevent nose diving at higher speeds. I use the FoilParts tail adapter for the Lift 120.

Some interesting info on tubercles for those interested.

Great find ! super interesting ,I've been paragliding since the early 90s and the big leaps in design happened early on ,then small changes of the last 10 years, but this seems like another significant change. Makes designing foils look like a walk in the park compared to paragliders. I wonder if anyone other than takuma are going to use this on foils ,because the concept occurs in nature its not an original design so it can't be protected,therefore anyone can freely use it.

Select to expand quote

kobo said..
Great find ! super interesting ,I've been paragliding since the early 90s and the big leaps in design happened early on ,then small changes of the last 10 years, but this seems like another significant change. Makes designing foils look like a walk in the park compared to paragliders. I wonder if anyone other than takuma are going to use this on foils ,because the concept occurs in nature its not an original design so it can't be protected,therefore anyone can freely use it.

Dunno how the Kujiras will evolve.
The 1095ha has wider spaced "tubercles" and they do not seem to affect the upper surface at all,only the leading edge.

The Heliums on the other hand look more like the earlier 1210 & 980.

Maybe the tubercles will be more present in beginner and surf oriented wings and less in speed & perfo models.

This would fit with what i have read about hydrofoil tubercles, they add drag but decrease stall speed.

The Gin vid says that they are getting the same glide from smaller Aspect Ratio wings by adding their paraglider version of the bumps.This i find a bit surprising but PGliding is pretty high tech nowadays and they race for keeps so i'll buy it.

I was wondering if the trade off with tubercles was loss at the top end of the speed range , and maybe that's why you don't see them on faster aircraft wings.

Select to expand quote

kobo said..
I was wondering if the trade off with tubercles was loss at the top end of the speed range , and maybe that's why you don't see them on faster aircraft wings.

This is the paper i read a while ago,it is pretty good.

www.researchgate.net/publication/258246710_THE_EFFECT_OF_LEADING_EDGE_TUBERCLE_GEOMETRY_ON_THE_PERFORMANCE_OF_DIFFERENT_AIRFOILS

Problem i have with research papers is they can get quite deep quite quickly , i do not have engineer level aerodynamics knowledge so i have to painfully wade through them trying to understand the gist of it.

Thanks mrct , like you said heavy reading but it appears tubercles work on some foil sections but not on others.

Select to expand quote

kobo said..
Thanks mrct , like you said heavy reading but it appears tubercles work on some foil sections but not on others.

I am still reading & understanding it all but it appears to me that tubercles work better at different angles & speeds and also the size of the tubercle/s in relation to the wing size all plays a part, but I think that tubercles are of more benefit then not, and in relation to aircraft wings I think it is probably to costly & difficult to make & incorporate on an most aircraftwing in my option:-)

Select to expand quote

Johndesu said..

I am still reading & understanding it all but it appears to me that tubercles work better at different angles & speeds and also the size of the tubercle/s in relation to the wing size all plays a part, but I think that tubercles are of more benefit then not, and in relation to aircraft wings I think it is probably to costly & difficult to make & incorporate on an most aircraftwing in my option:-)

Airliners have a better solution to decrease stall speed: High lift devices like spoilers (leading edge) and flaps (trailing edge).

With the cost of very high engineering complexity you get a "morphing" wing that will adapt its shape to the range of speeds you want , so a B737 can take off or land at around 120kt , accelerate to 340kt at sea level or cruise at M.76 at 30.000 with good fuel economy.

Putting flaps or slats on our foils would be a nightmare,salt,sand,impacts,cost,weight etc...there was a project but i don't know if they gave up.

The tubercles are a simple design in comparison, they have a penalty in glide (or that is my take on that brainy paper) but they give some improvement in decreased stall speed, stall behaviour and stall recovery.

And like the GoFoil "step" i think they help with tip breaches.

Select to expand quote

kobo said..
I was wondering if the trade off with tubercles was loss at the top end of the speed range , and maybe that's why you don't see them on faster aircraft wings.

Topspeed is definitely not what the tubercles excel at in my experience, but they more than make up for it in lift, glide, pump and turnability.

Select to expand quote

PeterP said..

kobo said..
I was wondering if the trade off with tubercles was loss at the top end of the speed range , and maybe that's why you don't see them on faster aircraft wings.

Topspeed is definitely not what the tubercles excel at in my experience, but they more than make up for it in lift, glide, pump and turnability.

Agreed^^^that's why I'm looking at getting a smallish HA setup & keeping the 980/1210 Kujira's.

The KJ1095 & KJ750 weren't my cup of tea.

What didn't you like about the KJ1095&KJ750 was it the lack of top speed only ?

Select to expand quote

kobo said..
What didn't you like about the KJ1095&KJ750 was it the lack of top speed only ?

To be fair I think the 1095 needed a stiffer & longer mast than 75cm Takuma T-bar, from my experience I could feel the mast/wing? flexing & it would unexpectedly get locked into a direction & I'd have to bail.
The 750 turned really well but didn't pump or glide anything like the Cab 800...this is for prone only.

I think it's a little interesting that the unifoil progression foils don't have them, since Erik is such a fan of the 1095, and it seems like many prototypes exploring "variables" were tried. It'll be interesting to learn if there were identical prototypes but one with tubercles and one without.

My Takuma 1210 was getting pretty beat up, so that was a good excuse to get the 1095HA!

The Takuma 1095HA feels like a more user friendly version of the Lift 120. I've been able to takeoff on CH/HH waves on the 1095 with about the same ease as I did with the Lift 120. With the classic KD13.5" tail on both foils, the 1095HA feels almost as loose as the Lift 120. Turns on the 1095HA feel less pitch sensitive than the Lift 120. I have gotten my best turns ever on the 1095! When I've done tips out turns on the Lift 120, I was barely in control on the exit. With the 1095, tips out turns have felt totally smooth and in control. The Lift 120 is probably too turny for my current skill level. The Takuma 1210 has felt too stiff when I've tried a full wrap cutback.

When pumping out the back, I'm still tapping out on cardio at around 120 yards, no matter what foil I use. However, it seems I'm making just as many double dips with the 1095 as I did with the 1210. With the Lift 120, I was more likely to stall on the connection turn.

With an Amundson 4'4" foilboard that has zero tail rocker, I was using 1 Takuma baseplate shim (thick part at the back) with the 1210. With the 1095HA and baseplate shim, I was stalling out a lot. After I removed the baseplate shim to ride the 1095 more nose up, my pumping improved and the unexpected stalls stopped happening (tip from KDMaui). I ride the 1095 mast a 1/2" forward of where I rode the 1210 mast.

The 1095HA is definitely my new favorite foil.

Select to expand quote

JonnieTyler said..
My Takuma 1210 was getting pretty beat up, so that was a good excuse to get the 1095HA!

The Takuma 1095HA feels like a more user friendly version of the Lift 120. I've been able to takeoff on CH/HH waves on the 1095 with about the same ease as I did with the Lift 120. With the classic KD13.5" tail on both foils, the 1095HA feels almost as loose as the Lift 120. Turns on the 1095HA feel less pitch sensitive than the Lift 120. I have gotten my best turns ever on the 1095! When I've done tips out turns on the Lift 120, I was barely in control on the exit. With the 1095, tips out turns have felt totally smooth and in control. The Lift 120 is probably too turny for my current skill level. The Takuma 1210 has felt too stiff when I've tried a full wrap cutback.

When pumping out the back, I'm still tapping out on cardio at around 120 yards, no matter what foil I use. However, it seems I'm making just as many double dips with the 1095 as I did with the 1210. With the Lift 120, I was more likely to stall on the connection turn.

With an Amundson 4'4" foilboard that has zero tail rocker, I was using 1 Takuma baseplate shim (thick part at the back) with the 1210. With the 1095HA and baseplate shim, I was stalling out a lot. After I removed the baseplate shim to ride the 1095 more nose up, my pumping improved and the unexpected stalls stopped happening (tip from KDMaui). I ride the 1095 mast a 1/2" forward of where I rode the 1210 mast.

The 1095HA is definitely my new favorite foil.

The kdtail is great introduction to the 1095, stable and lots of back foot. If you feel adventurous, I would highly recommend the 178 with half degree shim back bolt for less front foot pressure, or the kd 13R no shim, both unlock a lot of speed and glide, but are a bit more pitch sensitive.

Select to expand quote

foilstate said..

JonnieTyler said..
My Takuma 1210 was getting pretty beat up, so that was a good excuse to get the 1095HA!

The Takuma 1095HA feels like a more user friendly version of the Lift 120. I've been able to takeoff on CH/HH waves on the 1095 with about the same ease as I did with the Lift 120. With the classic KD13.5" tail on both foils, the 1095HA feels almost as loose as the Lift 120. Turns on the 1095HA feel less pitch sensitive than the Lift 120. I have gotten my best turns ever on the 1095! When I've done tips out turns on the Lift 120, I was barely in control on the exit. With the 1095, tips out turns have felt totally smooth and in control. The Lift 120 is probably too turny for my current skill level. The Takuma 1210 has felt too stiff when I've tried a full wrap cutback.

When pumping out the back, I'm still tapping out on cardio at around 120 yards, no matter what foil I use. However, it seems I'm making just as many double dips with the 1095 as I did with the 1210. With the Lift 120, I was more likely to stall on the connection turn.

With an Amundson 4'4" foilboard that has zero tail rocker, I was using 1 Takuma baseplate shim (thick part at the back) with the 1210. With the 1095HA and baseplate shim, I was stalling out a lot. After I removed the baseplate shim to ride the 1095 more nose up, my pumping improved and the unexpected stalls stopped happening (tip from KDMaui). I ride the 1095 mast a 1/2" forward of where I rode the 1210 mast.

The 1095HA is definitely my new favorite foil.

The kdtail is great introduction to the 1095, stable and lots of back foot. If you feel adventurous, I would highly recommend the 178 with half degree shim back bolt for less front foot pressure, or the kd 13R no shim, both unlock a lot of speed and glide, but are a bit more pitch sensitive.

the kd 13R is the foiling equivalent of a computer game cheat code... I almost feel bad pumping all over the place with it :)

The 158 stab is a good improvement over the 178. A bit looser but more top end speed. It's all I use now.
It has less pump than the 178 if you're doing surf foil but for wing 158 is magic

I tried the 1440 on my SIC Mako board and unfortunately the tracks aren't forward enough
I need more front foot pressure, my toes touch the inserts of the back of forward straps.

I tried a 1deg plate shim but my friend said the board was too nose up.

I guess I should try shim the 178 stab next? Any advice?

Select to expand quote

Alysum said..
I tried the 1440 on my SIC Mako board and unfortunately the tracks aren't forward enough
I need more front foot pressure, my toes touch the inserts of the back of forward straps.

I tried a 1deg plate shim but my friend said the board was too nose up.

I guess I should try shim the 178 stab next? Any advice?

If you shim the fuse instead of the plate (so mast/fuse is closer to 90 degrees ), the top of the mast moves aft, so you can then move everything forward by an inch or so depending on mast length. That and bigger tail or positive tail shim?

Select to expand quote

Alysum said..
I tried the 1440 on my SIC Mako board and unfortunately the tracks aren't forward enough
I need more front foot pressure, my toes touch the inserts of the back of forward straps.

I tried a 1deg plate shim but my friend said the board was too nose up.

I guess I should try shim the 178 stab next? Any advice?

I found that the 1440 paired with the 178 tends to dive forward a bit. 0.5 degree tail shim under the front bolt does the trick.

Any news of what is coming for 2023 ?

Select to expand quote

randomfoiler said..

foilstate said..

JonnieTyler said..
My Takuma 1210 was getting pretty beat up, so that was a good excuse to get the 1095HA!

The Takuma 1095HA feels like a more user friendly version of the Lift 120. I've been able to takeoff on CH/HH waves on the 1095 with about the same ease as I did with the Lift 120. With the classic KD13.5" tail on both foils, the 1095HA feels almost as loose as the Lift 120. Turns on the 1095HA feel less pitch sensitive than the Lift 120. I have gotten my best turns ever on the 1095! When I've done tips out turns on the Lift 120, I was barely in control on the exit. With the 1095, tips out turns have felt totally smooth and in control. The Lift 120 is probably too turny for my current skill level. The Takuma 1210 has felt too stiff when I've tried a full wrap cutback.

When pumping out the back, I'm still tapping out on cardio at around 120 yards, no matter what foil I use. However, it seems I'm making just as many double dips with the 1095 as I did with the 1210. With the Lift 120, I was more likely to stall on the connection turn.

With an Amundson 4'4" foilboard that has zero tail rocker, I was using 1 Takuma baseplate shim (thick part at the back) with the 1210. With the 1095HA and baseplate shim, I was stalling out a lot. After I removed the baseplate shim to ride the 1095 more nose up, my pumping improved and the unexpected stalls stopped happening (tip from KDMaui). I ride the 1095 mast a 1/2" forward of where I rode the 1210 mast.

The 1095HA is definitely my new favorite foil.

The kdtail is great introduction to the 1095, stable and lots of back foot. If you feel adventurous, I would highly recommend the 178 with half degree shim back bolt for less front foot pressure, or the kd 13R no shim, both unlock a lot of speed and glide, but are a bit more pitch sensitive.

the kd 13R is the foiling equivalent of a computer game cheat code... I almost feel bad pumping all over the place with it :)

What other tail wings have you used on the Takuma as a comparison vs the KD 13R?

Select to expand quote

JonnieTyler said..

randomfoiler said..

foilstate said..

JonnieTyler said..
My Takuma 1210 was getting pretty beat up, so that was a good excuse to get the 1095HA!

The Takuma 1095HA feels like a more user friendly version of the Lift 120. I've been able to takeoff on CH/HH waves on the 1095 with about the same ease as I did with the Lift 120. With the classic KD13.5" tail on both foils, the 1095HA feels almost as loose as the Lift 120. Turns on the 1095HA feel less pitch sensitive than the Lift 120. I have gotten my best turns ever on the 1095! When I've done tips out turns on the Lift 120, I was barely in control on the exit. With the 1095, tips out turns have felt totally smooth and in control. The Lift 120 is probably too turny for my current skill level. The Takuma 1210 has felt too stiff when I've tried a full wrap cutback.

When pumping out the back, I'm still tapping out on cardio at around 120 yards, no matter what foil I use. However, it seems I'm making just as many double dips with the 1095 as I did with the 1210. With the Lift 120, I was more likely to stall on the connection turn.

With an Amundson 4'4" foilboard that has zero tail rocker, I was using 1 Takuma baseplate shim (thick part at the back) with the 1210. With the 1095HA and baseplate shim, I was stalling out a lot. After I removed the baseplate shim to ride the 1095 more nose up, my pumping improved and the unexpected stalls stopped happening (tip from KDMaui). I ride the 1095 mast a 1/2" forward of where I rode the 1210 mast.

The 1095HA is definitely my new favorite foil.

The kdtail is great introduction to the 1095, stable and lots of back foot. If you feel adventurous, I would highly recommend the 178 with half degree shim back bolt for less front foot pressure, or the kd 13R no shim, both unlock a lot of speed and glide, but are a bit more pitch sensitive.

the kd 13R is the foiling equivalent of a computer game cheat code... I almost feel bad pumping all over the place with it :)

What other tail wings have you used on the Takuma as a comparison vs the KD 13R?

I have the 1440/1095 - they came with 220/178. I used them with lots of different shims until I wanted the 158 and was told I needed to buy a set with the 780 to get it ... got annoyed with Takuma and ordered the KD 13R ... Now only using that - still hoping to try the 158 at some point ...

Select to expand quote

randomfoiler said..

JonnieTyler said..

randomfoiler said..

foilstate said..

JonnieTyler said..
My Takuma 1210 was getting pretty beat up, so that was a good excuse to get the 1095HA!

The Takuma 1095HA feels like a more user friendly version of the Lift 120. I've been able to takeoff on CH/HH waves on the 1095 with about the same ease as I did with the Lift 120. With the classic KD13.5" tail on both foils, the 1095HA feels almost as loose as the Lift 120. Turns on the 1095HA feel less pitch sensitive than the Lift 120. I have gotten my best turns ever on the 1095! When I've done tips out turns on the Lift 120, I was barely in control on the exit. With the 1095, tips out turns have felt totally smooth and in control. The Lift 120 is probably too turny for my current skill level. The Takuma 1210 has felt too stiff when I've tried a full wrap cutback.

When pumping out the back, I'm still tapping out on cardio at around 120 yards, no matter what foil I use. However, it seems I'm making just as many double dips with the 1095 as I did with the 1210. With the Lift 120, I was more likely to stall on the connection turn.

With an Amundson 4'4" foilboard that has zero tail rocker, I was using 1 Takuma baseplate shim (thick part at the back) with the 1210. With the 1095HA and baseplate shim, I was stalling out a lot. After I removed the baseplate shim to ride the 1095 more nose up, my pumping improved and the unexpected stalls stopped happening (tip from KDMaui). I ride the 1095 mast a 1/2" forward of where I rode the 1210 mast.

The 1095HA is definitely my new favorite foil.

The kdtail is great introduction to the 1095, stable and lots of back foot. If you feel adventurous, I would highly recommend the 178 with half degree shim back bolt for less front foot pressure, or the kd 13R no shim, both unlock a lot of speed and glide, but are a bit more pitch sensitive.

the kd 13R is the foiling equivalent of a computer game cheat code... I almost feel bad pumping all over the place with it :)

What other tail wings have you used on the Takuma as a comparison vs the KD 13R?

I have the 1440/1095 - they came with 220/178. I used them with lots of different shims until I wanted the 158 and was told I needed to buy a set with the 780 to get it ... got annoyed with Takuma and ordered the KD 13R ... Now only using that - still hoping to try the 158 at some point ...

No you are no longer forced to buy a set to get a stab. That's changed. I bought the 158 separately...

I'm finding the 13R has better pump/glide than the 158....wasn't a fan of the 178.

Damn, everybody's glowing reports on the KD 13R tail tail just cost me some money. I just put in my order and hopefully I get it sometime next week!

Select to expand quote

JonnieTyler said..
Damn, everybody's glowing reports on the KD 13R tail tail just cost me some money. I just put in my order and hopefully I get it sometime next week!

I have one, use it with the Kuj 1210 and 980.
Not surffoiled with it yet.
Dockstart&pump with the 1210 are definitely improved, great low end,much less effort overall, easier to recover from low or slow situations.

With the wing i am growing into it.At first it felt slow and hummed like crazy.
Slowly sanding trailing edge and the hum has almost disappeared, also driving it a bit faster.Downwinds very good and turns great.
Need getting used to its reactions, i spent a lot of time with a cut down Kuj 220 so this one feels very different.

But i would buy again, no doubt.I think linking waves on the surffoil is going to be way easier with this stab and without loosing any agility.