Anyone have any thoughts/experience regarding the Lift 200 HA vs the Kujira 1210 for pumping? Want something for a 90kg prone for small days and itching to get my pumping squared away and consistent.

Regarding the changes in 2021 versions,this is what Takuma emailed me recently:

Aluminum mast 2020, use a 3mm top plate shim (the 3mm at the back of your top plate).

Aluminum mast 2021 , no need for a top plate shim, we have not only an angle on the wings but also added some angle between fuselage and mast.

Carbon mast 2020, use a 3mm top plate shim.
It is the same Carbon mast in 2021.

I've heard some people saying Takuma created this top plate shim because they made mistakes when making their mast. It is not it at all. It is a bit deeper if I can say it like that... basically we keep on testing all kinds of options, a lot of them seem tiny details but at the end they change your entire set up. Example our developed top plate shim can (should) be used even with other foils than Takuma's, it simply gives the front wing the right angle to accelerate, a perfect fluid flow, less turbulences, control, comfort.

Back wing (stab) shims:
Profoil foils (LOL), use the back wing shim 1mm or 1,5mm, start with 1mm then test 1,5mm it is very personal.
Kujira foils, don't use a back wing shim.
Kind regards

IMHO mast plate shimming has a huge effect in how the board goes into the wave and rises up on foil.
I use a LOL 1600, unshimmed for the wing but shimmed for surfing (thick side at front of plate) to make wave entry and rise a lot easier.

Good pumpers say they notice a big improvement when shimming the Kujira 980 ,some are going with as much as 9mm lift on the back of the plate (carbon or old alu mast).This might be a biomechanical thingy.

Board rocker at the mast box has the same effect as shimming the front of the mast plate.So what works on one board might be awful on another.

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mcrt said..
Regarding the changes in 2021 versions,this is what Takuma emailed me recently:

Aluminum mast 2020, use a 3mm top plate shim (the 3mm at the back of your top plate).

Aluminum mast 2021 , no need for a top plate shim, we have not only an angle on the wings but also added some angle between fuselage and mast.

Carbon mast 2020, use a 3mm top plate shim.
It is the same Carbon mast in 2021.

I've heard some people saying Takuma created this top plate shim because they made mistakes when making their mast. It is not it at all. It is a bit deeper if I can say it like that... basically we keep on testing all kinds of options, a lot of them seem tiny details but at the end they change your entire set up. Example our developed top plate shim can (should) be used even with other foils than Takuma's, it simply gives the front wing the right angle to accelerate, a perfect fluid flow, less turbulences, control, comfort.

Back wing (stab) shims:
Profoil foils (LOL), use the back wing shim 1mm or 1,5mm, start with 1mm then test 1,5mm it is very personal.
Kujira foils, don't use a back wing shim.
Kind regards

IMHO mast plate shimming has a huge effect in how the board goes into the wave and rises up on foil.
I use a LOL 1600, unshimmed for the wing but shimmed for surfing (thick side at front of plate) to make wave entry and rise a lot easier.

Good pumpers say they notice a big improvement when shimming the Kujira 980 ,some are going with as much as 9mm lift on the back of the plate (carbon or old alu mast).This might be a biomechanical thingy.

Board rocker at the mast box has the same effect as shimming the front of the mast plate.So what works on one board might be awful on another.

Thanks for the great info, soon to have my 1210 & plan to use a KD 13" tail to loosen it up.
PS, if anyone would like to buy a new 220 Kujira tail wing - pm me.

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Holoholo said..
Anyone have any thoughts/experience regarding the Lift 200 HA vs the Kujira 1210 for pumping? Want something for a 90kg prone for small days and itching to get my pumping squared away and consistent.

I tried both, Lift has tones of glide vs kujira ,kujira turns a little easier although I am 68 kg and my go to is lift HA 170 with 25 tail this thing for my weight is amazing even better glide than the 200 ,less drag and better turning I believe for your size the 200 is spot on

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Dpap said..

Holoholo said..
Anyone have any thoughts/experience regarding the Lift 200 HA vs the Kujira 1210 for pumping? Want something for a 90kg prone for small days and itching to get my pumping squared away and consistent.

I tried both, Lift has tones of glide vs kujira ,kujira turns a little easier although I am 68 kg and my go to is lift HA 170 with 25 tail this thing for my weight is amazing even better glide than the 200 ,less drag and better turning I believe for your size the 200 is spot on

Thanks much Dpap. Kind of what I suspected as the Kujira is more midaspect, but by all reviews the Kujira defies expectations and... you know.... we all want the best of both worlds- tight turns and glide for days.

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Holoholo said..

Dpap said..

Holoholo said..
Anyone have any thoughts/experience regarding the Lift 200 HA vs the Kujira 1210 for pumping? Want something for a 90kg prone for small days and itching to get my pumping squared away and consistent.

I tried both, Lift has tones of glide vs kujira ,kujira turns a little easier although I am 68 kg and my go to is lift HA 170 with 25 tail this thing for my weight is amazing even better glide than the 200 ,less drag and better turning I believe for your size the 200 is spot on

Thanks much Dpap. Kind of what I suspected as the Kujira is more midaspect, but by all reviews the Kujira defies expectations and... you know.... we all want the best of both worlds- tight turns and glide for days.

Select to expand quote

Holoholo said..

Dpap said..

Holoholo said..
Anyone have any thoughts/experience regarding the Lift 200 HA vs the Kujira 1210 for pumping? Want something for a 90kg prone for small days and itching to get my pumping squared away and consistent.

I tried both, Lift has tones of glide vs kujira ,kujira turns a little easier although I am 68 kg and my go to is lift HA 170 with 25 tail this thing for my weight is amazing even better glide than the 200 ,less drag and better turning I believe for your size the 200 is spot on

Thanks much Dpap. Kind of what I suspected as the Kujira is more midaspect, but by all reviews the Kujira defies expectations and... you know.... we all want the best of both worlds- tight turns and glide for days.

I've ridden both as well. Lift definitely feels faster but kujira has better low end speed. They both pump really well. Judging by what everyone was riding at Kahana last week the kujira is clearly the current favorite here.

I found this interesting review ... posted today . As like many am intrigued with the reports of the Kujira lift abilities.

(Cant post the link so look at YouTube"2021 Takuma LOL Pro Foil and Kujira REAL Review")

So maybe the reason the "980" pumps like a much larger wing ... is because its actually 1200+ ?

The 980 is "projected area" not the wing area?

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bjhjames said..
I found this interesting review ... posted today . As like many am intrigued with the reports of the Kujira lift abilities.

(Cant post the link so look at YouTube"2021 Takuma LOL Pro Foil and Kujira REAL Review")

So maybe the reason the "980" pumps like a much larger wing ... is because its actually 1200+ ?

The 980 is "projected area" not the wing area?

Though it is true that they use projected area, I don't think the difference is really that great, as the wings really do not have that much curvature. He might be thinking that because when you look at something like a kite which has a ton of curvature compared to the projected outline it make a huge difference.

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gorgesailor said..

bjhjames said..
I found this interesting review ... posted today . As like many am intrigued with the reports of the Kujira lift abilities.

(Cant post the link so look at YouTube"2021 Takuma LOL Pro Foil and Kujira REAL Review")

So maybe the reason the "980" pumps like a much larger wing ... is because its actually 1200+ ?

The 980 is "projected area" not the wing area?

Though it is true that they use projected area, I don't think the difference is really that great, as the wings really do not have that much curvature. He might be thinking that because when you look at something like a kite which has a ton of curvature compared to the projected outline it make a huge difference.

810mm Carbon WingTechnical Data:
WINGSPAN: 810 mm / 32 inches
MAX CHORD: 155mm / 6/1inches
ASPECT RATIO: 6.42
ACTUAL AREA 1070 square cm / 166 square inches
PROJECTED AREA: 1022 square cm / 158 square inches

As a guide, using the above Axis 810 wing that has both measurements Actual/Projected area. Therefore the Actual Area of the Kujira 980 should be approx 1030 square cm.

Ok according to the above measurements the AR is the projected area AR not the true although the difference is small 6,1 to 6,4 but again it becomes very confusing for all of us....!!!!!!!!!

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toppleover said..

gorgesailor said..

bjhjames said..
I found this interesting review ... posted today . As like many am intrigued with the reports of the Kujira lift abilities.

(Cant post the link so look at YouTube"2021 Takuma LOL Pro Foil and Kujira REAL Review")

So maybe the reason the "980" pumps like a much larger wing ... is because its actually 1200+ ?

The 980 is "projected area" not the wing area?

Though it is true that they use projected area, I don't think the difference is really that great, as the wings really do not have that much curvature. He might be thinking that because when you look at something like a kite which has a ton of curvature compared to the projected outline it make a huge difference.

810mm Carbon WingTechnical Data:
WINGSPAN: 810 mm / 32 inches
MAX CHORD: 155mm / 6/1inches
ASPECT RATIO: 6.42
ACTUAL AREA 1070 square cm / 166 square inches
PROJECTED AREA: 1022 square cm / 158 square inches

As a guide, using the above Axis 810 wing that has both measurements Actual/Projected area. Therefore the Actual Area of the Kujira 980 should be approx 1030 square cm.

Makes sense, I would guess that's about right, so really fairly negligible.

I think I figured out why the Kujira feels like it rides so smoothly. For whatever design reason, the amount of lift doesn't change quickly with angle of attack. In my experience with other foils, this isn't the case with most high aspect foils - they are pretty sensitive to angle of attack. This means a little weight shift makes an instant change in height with most high performance high aspect wings - but with the Kujira, the response to weight changes are a lot more "soft". This means we can run with a tiny tail and still have pretty good pitch stability.

At the same time that it is soft in pitch, it'll go rail-to-rail really fast and responsive. What a killer combination! I've found the Kujira really nice in hard carving turns - I don't have to manage the depth of the foil in the water nearly as much as other high performance foils.

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jondrums said..
I think I figured out why the Kujira feels like it rides so smoothly. For whatever design reason, the amount of lift doesn't change quickly with angle of attack. In my experience with other foils, this isn't the case with most high aspect foils - they are pretty sensitive to angle of attack. This means a little weight shift makes an instant change in height with most high performance high aspect wings - but with the Kujira, the response to weight changes are a lot more "soft". This means we can run with a tiny tail and still have pretty good pitch stability.

At the same time that it is soft in pitch, it'll go rail-to-rail really fast and responsive. What a killer combination! I've found the Kujira really nice in hard carving turns - I don't have to manage the depth of the foil in the water nearly as much as other high performance foils.

I think the long fuselage also adds to it's pitch stability, weird how the Kujira (980 in particular) turns so well with this length fuse & it carves like it's on rails. It was good with the 220 stock tail and blew my mind with the KD 13".

Only downside I'm finding with the longer fuse (prone) is getting hung up easier on the bottom if shallow & it also can pop out the back of a wave more than if you were using a shorter fuse.

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jondrums said..
I think I figured out why the Kujira feels like it rides so smoothly. For whatever design reason, the amount of lift doesn't change quickly with angle of attack. In my experience with other foils, this isn't the case with most high aspect foils - they are pretty sensitive to angle of attack. This means a little weight shift makes an instant change in height with most high performance high aspect wings - but with the Kujira, the response to weight changes are a lot more "soft". This means we can run with a tiny tail and still have pretty good pitch stability.

At the same time that it is soft in pitch, it'll go rail-to-rail really fast and responsive. What a killer combination! I've found the Kujira really nice in hard carving turns - I don't have to manage the depth of the foil in the water nearly as much as other high performance foils.

Well put - I completely agree.

Select to expand quote

toppleover said..

jondrums said..
I think I figured out why the Kujira feels like it rides so smoothly. For whatever design reason, the amount of lift doesn't change quickly with angle of attack. In my experience with other foils, this isn't the case with most high aspect foils - they are pretty sensitive to angle of attack. This means a little weight shift makes an instant change in height with most high performance high aspect wings - but with the Kujira, the response to weight changes are a lot more "soft". This means we can run with a tiny tail and still have pretty good pitch stability.

At the same time that it is soft in pitch, it'll go rail-to-rail really fast and responsive. What a killer combination! I've found the Kujira really nice in hard carving turns - I don't have to manage the depth of the foil in the water nearly as much as other high performance foils.

I think the long fuselage also adds to it's pitch stability, weird how the Kujira (980 in particular) turns so well with this length fuse & it carves like it's on rails. It was good with the 220 stock tail and blew my mind with the KD 13".

Only downside I'm finding with the longer fuse (prone) is getting hung up easier on the bottom if shallow & it also can pop out the back of a wave more than if you were using a shorter fuse.

Yeah - shame Takuma don't do a shorter fuselage - it would be great to see what that brings!

I've heard rumours that Takuma may be bringing out some new fuselages etc. Anyone heard anything?

I wonder if the mast being further back on the fuse than other foils makes the turning good ? It would explain the lifty feeling as well.

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kobo said..
I wonder if the mast being further back on the fuse than other foils makes the turning good ? It would explain the lifty feeling as well.

There is definitely some magic sauce on the Kujira , it's gotta be either the tubercles or mast position - or foil section?, there's no way it's the long fuse .

Fecked if I know

Quick video of a wake run on the Kujira 980 & KD 13" on the Ali 85cm mast.

I went thru most of the post on this thread I think and did not find the answer, hope I don't ask a question that already been answered. Does the shape of the Kujira is a weed magnet? We can foil in the area even if we have weeds, we even need weed fin for windsurfing...but for i reason I do not know, we can foil. So is someone noticed any difference with that Kujira, thanks in advance.

For me it works ok in water with weeds and grass floating around. My old GoFoil GL series wings completely **** the bed with any kind of weed or particulate in the water, but the kujira seems to do fine. You can feel a difference, but still ridable.

Big fan of the Kujira 980 with Kane 13.5 with one or two mast shims. (2 mast shims for more pump and/or smaller waves)

This to me, so far has been the best all around speed/ turn/ pump/ glide foil set up!
comparing to/ have riden: (all of the below foils I have enjoyed and are very good also)
Armstrong 1250 with Kane 14 tail (own and sold)
Cloud 9 f32 with Kane 13.5 tail (own and sold)
Lift new v2 surf 200 with 25 tail (borrowed demo and was going to buy, but 150 v2 worked way better for me)
Lift new v2 surf 150 with 25, 32, and 34 tail (own)
(still need to try Signature game changer and Unifoil set ups... foiling is way to expensive)

Kujira 1210 with kane 13.5 and one or no mast shim is amazing pump/ glide/ mixed with still good turning.
Would give it the slight nod over lift ha 170 but is very close... down to preference not performance.
(have not tried Signature or Unifoil wings)

prone foil surfing 90 kg/ 200lbs on 4ft 5 board

There seems to be a lot of support for this foil!

I now have the 1210 & KD 13" the glide & pump on the 1210 is unreal but the 980 is still my fav @ 73kg.

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toppleover said..
I now have the 1210 & KD 13" the glide & pump on the 1210 is unreal but the 980 is still my fav @ 73kg.

They are great but man are they crazy sharp, sand those tips, trailing edge of foil and mast if riding carbon.

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db541 said..

toppleover said..
I now have the 1210 & KD 13" the glide & pump on the 1210 is unreal but the 980 is still my fav @ 73kg.

They are great but man are they crazy sharp, sand those tips, trailing edge of foil and mast if riding carbon.

Yes, I totally agree to sand - especially the winglets & back of carbon mast.

Just click on cc for a reasonably good English translation.

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dejavu said..
Just click on cc for a reasonably good English translation.

Even though I speak French I need the captions, he speaks too fast

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toppleover said..
I now have the 1210 & KD 13" the glide & pump on the 1210 is unreal but the 980 is still my fav @ 73kg.

Now had a couple of epic sessions on the 1210/KD 13" & no mast shim.
I think conditions when I first tried the 1210 were more suited for me (73kg) to be on the 980 (bigger/more powerful waves).

The 1210 has nice gradual lift, pumps/glides about 2x easier/longer for me than the 980 & has a much lower stall speed. It's extremely fast & still turns really well for it's 935cm wingspan.