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Flying Dutchman said..

lotofwind said..

You'd think if you guys really believed what you are preaching, you'd be trying to do something more about it other than spending hundreds of hours and posts over the last year trying to spread your propaganda on a windsport forum.??
I didnt think there would ever be a more annoying small minority group than the vegans, but I stand corrected.
At least the vegans get out in the community and try and do something about their beliefs and not target a water sports forum.

Please dont say you guys are hard core vegan as well, that would be too funny. but would explain a lot. lol

I'm not strictly vegan but if someone annoys you because they are making a concerted effort to cause less harm to animals & the environment then you might want to wonder why that annoys you. Out of all the things that could annoy you in this world that surely would have to be at the bottom of the list.

Its when they dont stop after you have read their pamphlets and listened to what they have to say, but they dont give up telling you about it.
When every conversation seems to somehow lead to them telling you they are a vegan,
Like the religious crew knocking on your door non stop trying to convert you.

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Flying Dutchman said..
I'll admit it's a fringe view right now but gaining traction is the idea that vaccinating in the middle of a pandemic could lead to vaccine resistant strains. ....

There is a lot of value in vaccines. It has saved millions of lives throughout history. We are in the middle of an experiment; mass vaccinations in the middle of a pandemic. The results of this experiment are yet to be written.

How do you know WHEN you are in the middle of a pandemic? Is your idea that you should vaccinate at the end of a pandemic? At the beginning?

Nothing else makes sense. You vaccinate when you have the vaccines. There are enough unvaccinated people around in developing countries that there will be other strains developing.

If we all got the vaccine, then there would be minimal opportunity for vaccine resistant strains to develop. But if a 10% group don't get vaccinated and carry it, sure, we could end up with a vaccine resistant strain.

I am not sure you understand the idea of vaccine resistant. A virus can be resistant to a particular vaccination, but not all. It just needs to have a new vaccine created to match the profile of the virus. Its not like antibiotic resistance.

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Flying Dutchman said..
I'm not comfortable to try to do something more than posting on Seabreeze because I'm not 100% confident my views & opinions are correct. We share a love of surf sports & I thought there were enough intelligent people on here to have an interesting discussion about it.
.

Good point. I hope we all view it the same.

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lotofwind said..

Flying Dutchman said..

lotofwind said..

You'd think if you guys really believed what you are preaching, you'd be trying to do something more about it other than spending hundreds of hours and posts over the last year trying to spread your propaganda on a windsport forum.??
I didnt think there would ever be a more annoying small minority group than the vegans, but I stand corrected.
At least the vegans get out in the community and try and do something about their beliefs and not target a water sports forum.

Please dont say you guys are hard core vegan as well, that would be too funny. but would explain a lot. lol

I'm not strictly vegan but if someone annoys you because they are making a concerted effort to cause less harm to animals & the environment then you might want to wonder why that annoys you. Out of all the things that could annoy you in this world that surely would have to be at the bottom of the list.

Its when they dont stop after you have read their pamphlets and listened to what they have to say, but they dont give up telling you about it.
When every conversation seems to somehow lead to them telling you they are a vegan,
Like the religious crew knocking on your door non stop trying to convert you.

I know it's annoying, it's like when people keep calling me an 'anti-vaxxer'.
What can I do? I just try not to let it ruin my day.

FormulaNova I'm having technical problems with the 'Quote' function so I'll reply like this;

"How do you know WHEN you are in the middle of a pandemic?"

Well it seems that most commentators refer to the current time as being in the middle of the pandemic so I guess I'm just going along with that narrative.

"I am not sure you understand the idea of vaccine resistant."

It's true I don't understand the topic with any authority at all. I've been listening to a few speakers on the subject including Geert Vanden Bossche who seems to put up a convincing argument. I'll link one of his videos below. The video is dated 1st June just for reference.

(I have to add that Geert could be spouting false views or is an outlier genius either way I don't have the medical background to say but am keeping an open mind.)

Here is Geert's bio;

Geert Vanden Bossche received his DVM from the University of Ghent, Belgium, and his PhD degree in Virology from the University of Hohenheim, Germany. He held adjunct faculty appointments at universities in Belgium and Germany. After his career in Academia, Geert joined several vaccine companies (GSK Biologicals, Novartis Vaccines, Solvay Biologicals) to serve various roles in vaccine R&D as well as in late vaccine development.

Geert then moved on to join the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation's Global Health Discovery team in Seattle (USA) as Senior Program Officer; he then worked with the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization (GAVI) in Geneva as Senior Ebola Program Manager. At GAVI he tracked efforts to develop an Ebola vaccine. He also represented GAVI in fora with other partners, including WHO, to review progress on the fight against Ebola and to build plans for global pandemic preparedness.

Back in 2015, Geert scrutinized and questioned the safety of the Ebola vaccine that was used in ring vaccination trials conducted by WHO in Guinea. His critical scientific analysis and report on the data published by WHO in the Lancet in 2015 was sent to all international health and regulatory authorities involved in the Ebola vaccination program. After working for GAVI, Geert joined the German Center for Infection Research in Cologne as Head of the Vaccine Development Office. He is at present primarily serving as a Biotech / Vaccine consultant while also conducting his own research on Natural Killer cell-based vaccines.

NSW government has come out today saying that we are all going to get it (covid) sooner or later, which is a big turnaround from when we were trying to get to covid zero last year.

I'm guessing, this virus isn't going away and eventually we'll just try to manage it with an annual jab, like the flu shot. Restrictions for unvaccinated people will probably be relaxed, maybe they wont be allowed in certain settings, like nursing homes and government may deny them certain benefits.

Without vaccines, I'm confident that we would be in a far worse place than we are now finding ourselves in.

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Flying Dutchman said..

lotofwind said..

You'd think if you guys really believed what you are preaching, you'd be trying to do something more about it other than spending hundreds of hours and posts over the last year trying to spread your propaganda on a windsport forum.??
I didnt think there would ever be a more annoying small minority group than the vegans, but I stand corrected.
At least the vegans get out in the community and try and do something about their beliefs and not target a water sports forum.

Please dont say you guys are hard core vegan as well, that would be too funny. but would explain a lot. lol

I'm not comfortable to try to do something more than posting on Seabreeze because I'm not 100% confident my views & opinions are correct. We share a love of surf sports & I thought there were enough intelligent people on here to have an interesting discussion about it.

As for vegans, if they annoy you because they are making a concerted effort to cause less harm to animals & the environment then you might want to wonder why that triggers you. Out of all the things that could annoy you in this world that surely would have to be at the bottom of the list.

Ethically speaking I like the vegan ethos however a long term deficiency of vitamin K2 and heme iron is going to cause cardio, blood and skeletal problems. And a glycine deficiency will expose them to free radical occupation.

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psychojoe said..

Flying Dutchman said..

lotofwind said..

You'd think if you guys really believed what you are preaching, you'd be trying to do something more about it other than spending hundreds of hours and posts over the last year trying to spread your propaganda on a windsport forum.??
I didnt think there would ever be a more annoying small minority group than the vegans, but I stand corrected.
At least the vegans get out in the community and try and do something about their beliefs and not target a water sports forum.

Please dont say you guys are hard core vegan as well, that would be too funny. but would explain a lot. lol

I'm not comfortable to try to do something more than posting on Seabreeze because I'm not 100% confident my views & opinions are correct. We share a love of surf sports & I thought there were enough intelligent people on here to have an interesting discussion about it.

As for vegans, if they annoy you because they are making a concerted effort to cause less harm to animals & the environment then you might want to wonder why that triggers you. Out of all the things that could annoy you in this world that surely would have to be at the bottom of the list.

Ethically speaking I like the vegan ethos however a long term deficiency of vitamin K2 and heme iron is going to cause cardio, blood and skeletal problems. And a glycine deficiency will expose them to free radical occupation.

Oh well if they are educated on it I guess there's supplements or alternatives?

Like a steak, bacon and egg breakfast maybe ? lol

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Flying Dutchman said..

psychojoe said..

Flying Dutchman said..

lotofwind said..

You'd think if you guys really believed what you are preaching, you'd be trying to do something more about it other than spending hundreds of hours and posts over the last year trying to spread your propaganda on a windsport forum.??
I didnt think there would ever be a more annoying small minority group than the vegans, but I stand corrected.
At least the vegans get out in the community and try and do something about their beliefs and not target a water sports forum.

Please dont say you guys are hard core vegan as well, that would be too funny. but would explain a lot. lol

I'm not comfortable to try to do something more than posting on Seabreeze because I'm not 100% confident my views & opinions are correct. We share a love of surf sports & I thought there were enough intelligent people on here to have an interesting discussion about it.

As for vegans, if they annoy you because they are making a concerted effort to cause less harm to animals & the environment then you might want to wonder why that triggers you. Out of all the things that could annoy you in this world that surely would have to be at the bottom of the list.

Ethically speaking I like the vegan ethos however a long term deficiency of vitamin K2 and heme iron is going to cause cardio, blood and skeletal problems. And a glycine deficiency will expose them to free radical occupation.

Oh well if they are educated on it I guess there's supplements or alternatives?

supplements for K2mk4 and heme iron can't be extracted from non animal sources.

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psychojoe said..

Flying Dutchman said..

psychojoe said..

Flying Dutchman said..

lotofwind said..

You'd think if you guys really believed what you are preaching, you'd be trying to do something more about it other than spending hundreds of hours and posts over the last year trying to spread your propaganda on a windsport forum.??
I didnt think there would ever be a more annoying small minority group than the vegans, but I stand corrected.
At least the vegans get out in the community and try and do something about their beliefs and not target a water sports forum.

Please dont say you guys are hard core vegan as well, that would be too funny. but would explain a lot. lol

I'm not comfortable to try to do something more than posting on Seabreeze because I'm not 100% confident my views & opinions are correct. We share a love of surf sports & I thought there were enough intelligent people on here to have an interesting discussion about it.

As for vegans, if they annoy you because they are making a concerted effort to cause less harm to animals & the environment then you might want to wonder why that triggers you. Out of all the things that could annoy you in this world that surely would have to be at the bottom of the list.

Ethically speaking I like the vegan ethos however a long term deficiency of vitamin K2 and heme iron is going to cause cardio, blood and skeletal problems. And a glycine deficiency will expose them to free radical occupation.

Oh well if they are educated on it I guess there's supplements or alternatives?

supplements for K2mk4 and heme iron can't be extracted from non animal sources.

Oh well I guess if you're going to go vegan you'll need to be flexible & become 99% vegan

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psychojoe said..

supplements for K2mk4 and heme iron can't be extracted from non animal sources.

Listening to this podcast while driving this afternoon I learned otherwise
gastropod.com/are-plant-and-fungus-based-fake-meats-really-better-than-the-real-thing/

They say that the company that makes Impossible Burgers uses bacteria to synthesise heme

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I must have had my mind on driving through heavy rain when they were talking about heme production. It's not bacteria they use, but yeast.

impossiblefoods.com/au-en/heme

MAKING HEME
We started by extracting heme from the root nodules of soybean plants, but we knew there was a better way. So we took the DNA from these soy plants and inserted it into a genetically engineered yeast. We ferment this yeast (very similar to the way Belgian beer is made) to produce heme.

But I don't know that I've managed to shift the discussion much towards Bitcoin. Calling corporate hamburgers Bitecoin mining is a bloody awful pun. Millipedes a few days ago was definitely about digital, but clearly not enough of a nudge.
Sorry, Harrow.

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Mr Milk said..

psychojoe said..

supplements for K2mk4 and heme iron can't be extracted from non animal sources.

Listening to this podcast while driving this afternoon I learned otherwise
gastropod.com/are-plant-and-fungus-based-fake-meats-really-better-than-the-real-thing/

They say that the company that makes Impossible Burgers uses bacteria to synthesise heme

well that's an interesting new development.
I'll have to look into it.

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Flying Dutchman said..
FormulaNova I'm having technical problems with the 'Quote' function so I'll reply like this;

"How do you know WHEN you are in the middle of a pandemic?"

Well it seems that most commentators refer to the current time as being in the middle of the pandemic so I guess I'm just going along with that narrative.

"I am not sure you understand the idea of vaccine resistant."

It's true I don't understand the topic with any authority at all. I've been listening to a few speakers on the subject including Geert Vanden Bossche who seems to put up a convincing argument. I'll link one of his videos below. The video is dated 1st June just for reference.

If I understand this guy's viewpoint, he is saying that because there are lots of vaccinated, they could hold a reservoir of the virus, and therefore result in a variant developing that would be more infectious or immune to the current vaccines at that time.

The problem with this logic is that he is ignoring that if a lot of people are vaccinated, there is not much virus circulating at all.

If the majority are vaccinated, there just are not enough cases to continually pass virus to the vaccinated. Reach high enough vaccination rates and there will be no virus transmission, except where you have small clusters of unvaccinated people where they can pass it amongst themselves.

Therefore, if you have a substantial level of unvaccinated WITH infection in the unvaccinated, you could get a problem.

The alternative? No vaccination, and let variants evolve in the survivors? Well, this lets a lot of people die and still results in the same problem he argues about. Clearly, if few people are unvaccinated, lots of people will catch the virus, and amongst the survivors, you could end up with the same problem of a more infectious version evolving.

We have seen this, and this is probably how Omicron evolved in southern Africa.

To clear up the question of virus immunity to (all) vaccination, in my understanding it cannot happen. A virus can evolve to be immune to the vaccination present in a person or population. It changes enough that the antibodies in your body do not recognise it as an invader straight away. This happens in "natural" immune systems where someone has had the virus before, the same as if they have had their immune system primed by a particular vaccine.

In order for this evolution to happen you need a large number of people with the virus, and if the majority are vaccinated, you don't have this.

If the virus evolves to a new type, you vaccinate against that type. If you still have a huge number of people that are unvaccinated, then this will continue to be a problem.

"The problem with this logic is that he is ignoring that if a lot of people are vaccinated, there is not much virus circulating at all."

Is that true though? Infections are rising throughout the world. The virus is circulating amongst everybody vaccinated or not.

"If the majority are vaccinated, there just are not enough cases to continually pass virus to the vaccinated."

Doesn't seem to playing out in the real world. It's continually being passed around & setting record case numbers in some countries.

"Reach high enough vaccination rates and there will be no virus transmission, except where you have small clusters of unvaccinated people where they can pass it amongst themselves."

Even in countries with 100% vaccination rates we see the virus is spreading. The vaccines are not doing a great job of stopping the spread. Omicron has spread all around the world by vaccinated people in planes.

"The alternative? No vaccination, and let variants evolve in the survivors?"

His argument is don't vaccinate people that have a low risk of disease like the young & healthy. Give them a chance to develop natural immunity leading to herd immunity in the population.

"In order for this evolution to happen you need a large number of people with the virus, and if the majority are vaccinated, you don't have this."

Yeah exactly, so don't vaccinate the healthy & the young is his argument.

What does 'fully vaccinated' even mean anymore. There's new evidence coming in the efficacy of the 3rd dose of the jab is waning after 10 weeks. It's clear these vaccines are not inhibiting virus transmission very effectively. I think you'll see less & less people willing to constantly get jabbed. They won't be able to maintain the vaccination rates as more & more people tire of the pandemic & increasingly will witness adverse problems with the vaccines. Like one of my friends who was an enthusiastic taker of the vaccine initially, now is suffering Pericarditis and won't touch any boosters. His wife doesn't want the vaccine now & neither do some of his friends & some family members. So one adverse event effects many people. There are tens of thousands of these cases around Australia.

Here's some info on booster efficacy waning after 10 weeks (and read the last sentence in that article);

Source: www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/12/23/health/booster-protection-omicron.amp.html

"If the virus evolves to a new type, you vaccinate against that type. If you still have a huge number of people that are unvaccinated, then this will continue to be a problem."

Constant vaccinations can run you into the risk of the vaccinated getting immune exhaustion. This idea that we will vaccinate enough of the world is this really realistic? There are still countries in the world where 96% of the population are unvaccinated.

Here's some quotes about immune exhaustion;

"Each additional shot also brings with it the risk of immune exhaustion, meaning that the immune system learns to tolerate the virus rather than recognising it as a threat and working to destroy it.

"There's obviously some risk in continuously trying to ramp up an immune response," Dr Marion Pepper, an immunologist and associate professor at the University of Washington, told The New York Times. "If we get into this cycle of boosting every six months, it's possible that this could work against us."

Source: www.straitstimes.com/world/the-science-behind-covid-19-vaccine-boosters-do-we-really-need-an-extra-shot


In the SMH today this was reported;

"Shattock insists that, from a physiological perspective, there is no limit to how many boosters the body can take."

Now I'm no Dr but I find it hard to believe you can just keep jabbing people and it has no physiological consequences.

Source: www.smh.com.au/world/europe/will-anyone-ever-be-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-20211227-p59k9f.html

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Flying Dutchman said..
What's the definition of fully vaccinated? 2 or 3 doses?

They need to overlay the vaccines adverse events on the vaccinated side with a cumulative number so you get a better idea of the risk profile.

My assumption at the moment fully vaccinated would be 2 doses as that's what people are required to show proof of to gain entry and also based on 3rd dose being brought forward and still largely to be given.

The TGA put out a adverse event report (www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-02-12-2021)

Note its not doctors reporting but individuals straight from the population being vaccinated (you get prompted by phone) so I believe it to be reliable also confirmed from a family member who has worked in the area.

And as you have noted there are risks getting vaccinated for COVID, no vaccine is risk free and I believe the risk for COVID vaccines is slightly higher.

My own opinion is if you are over 50 years old its a no brainier get vaccinated as you are entering the time of higher probability of having a medical condition or comorbidities that are still to reveal themselves but COVID will find.

Unvaccinated hospital cases run at around 10% of cases tested positive and they tend to be in that age group above 50.

Also note being young isn't being bullet proof around 5% hospitalised are 0 to 11 years old.

Hope everyone had a great Xmas, stay safe on the roads, good luck for 2022.

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Flying Dutchman said..
Now I'm no Dr but I find it hard to believe you can just keep jabbing people and it has no physiological consequences.

I think that's all valid, but I'm glad we have some vaccines available. They are not perfect but there is a lot of work still going on and we have to see how it pans out. You are free not to take vaccine.

It's a fact that just under 80% of those in ICU in NSW are unvaccinated. If 92% of the population in NSW are fully vaccinated it doesn't sound like a good argument to me not to take the available vaccinations.

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IFocus said...

Also note being young isn't being bullet proof around 5% hospitalised are 0 to 11 years old.

It's not serious for this age group unless someone has severe underlying health conditions in which case a vaccination may be preferable.

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myscreenname ...

I think that's all valid, but I'm glad we have some vaccines available. They are not perfect but there is a lot of work still going on and we have to see how it pans out. You are free not to take vaccine.

It's a fact that just under 80% of those in ICU in NSW are unvaccinated. If 92% of the population in NSW are fully vaccinated it doesn't sound like a good argument to me not to take the available vaccinations.

Yeah for sure the vaccines are helping a lot of people.

As for me, I'm a healthy 44 year old who doesn't drink alcohol, doesn't smoke, eats very healthy, exercises and has no underlying health conditions, I have 100% protection from any vaccine adverse reactions & a 99.98% survival rate of Covid. I'll take those odds.

If you have any underlying health problems or are over 65 then I can fully understand why the vaccine makes sense.

67% of Australians are overweight and 31% are obese. This would be classed as a health problem. Add in drinkers, smokers, processed food diets, stress, lack of exercise, etc & it's not surprising Covid can cause so many problems for many people.

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myscreenname said..

You are free not to take vaccine.

Yeah, sure.
Tell that to the industries that have been mandated to get the experimental shot.

You've got a choice, get the jab or go homeless.

Great choice.

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Flying Dutchman said..
"The problem with this logic is that he is ignoring that if a lot of people are vaccinated, there is not much virus circulating at all."

Is that true though? Infections are rising throughout the world. The virus is circulating amongst everybody vaccinated or not.

"If the majority are vaccinated, there just are not enough cases to continually pass virus to the vaccinated."

Doesn't seem to playing out in the real world. It's continually being passed around & setting record case numbers in some countries.

"Reach high enough vaccination rates and there will be no virus transmission, except where you have small clusters of unvaccinated people where they can pass it amongst themselves."

Even in countries with 100% vaccination rates we see the virus is spreading. The vaccines are not doing a great job of stopping the spread. Omicron has spread all around the world by vaccinated people in planes.

"The alternative? No vaccination, and let variants evolve in the survivors?"

His argument is don't vaccinate people that have a low risk of disease like the young & healthy. Give them a chance to develop natural immunity leading to herd immunity in the population.

"In order for this evolution to happen you need a large number of people with the virus, and if the majority are vaccinated, you don't have this."

Yeah exactly, so don't vaccinate the healthy & the young is his argument.

I don't know if we have enough data to show if the virus is circulating commonly around the vaccinated. The places in the world with high vaccination rates seem to be getting it from external sources coming in, not from a local circulation. The whole argument was that the virus circulates in vaccinated groups and evolves resistance to that vaccine. If it is circulated in unvaccinated people, that argument goes away BUT it evolves anyway, just in the unvaccinated majority.

I think it would be pretty clear that without external sources, a population with high vaccination rates, the virus would peter out. The vaccines stop it sufficiently by lowering the viral load and chances of passing it on.

If you then draw out the argument to include the unvaccinated, then you start arguing something else.

The argument of young people developing natural immunity and herd immunity doesn't fly. If natural immunity doesn't afford you immunity from a different variant, then those young people are going to just get another dose of it, and meanwhile become a factory for spreading it to others. From what I have read, the vaccines seem to give better immunity against variants than a "natural" dose does. I.e. a case of Delta may not protect you from infection from Omicron, but a RNA vaccine provides a better rate of protection. People go on about 'only' a 30 to 40% rate of protection, which I have no doubt is a lot better than 'natural' infection protecting you.

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FormulaNova said..

Flying Dutchman said..
"The problem with this logic is that he is ignoring that if a lot of people are vaccinated, there is not much virus circulating at all."

Is that true though? Infections are rising throughout the world. The virus is circulating amongst everybody vaccinated or not.

"If the majority are vaccinated, there just are not enough cases to continually pass virus to the vaccinated."

Doesn't seem to playing out in the real world. It's continually being passed around & setting record case numbers in some countries.

"Reach high enough vaccination rates and there will be no virus transmission, except where you have small clusters of unvaccinated people where they can pass it amongst themselves."

Even in countries with 100% vaccination rates we see the virus is spreading. The vaccines are not doing a great job of stopping the spread. Omicron has spread all around the world by vaccinated people in planes.

"The alternative? No vaccination, and let variants evolve in the survivors?"

His argument is don't vaccinate people that have a low risk of disease like the young & healthy. Give them a chance to develop natural immunity leading to herd immunity in the population.

"In order for this evolution to happen you need a large number of people with the virus, and if the majority are vaccinated, you don't have this."

Yeah exactly, so don't vaccinate the healthy & the young is his argument.

I don't know if we have enough data to show if the virus is circulating commonly around the vaccinated. The places in the world with high vaccination rates seem to be getting it from external sources coming in, not from a local circulation. The whole argument was that the virus circulates in vaccinated groups and evolves resistance to that vaccine. If it is circulated in unvaccinated people, that argument goes away BUT it evolves anyway, just in the unvaccinated majority.

I think it would be pretty clear that without external sources, a population with high vaccination rates, the virus would peter out. The vaccines stop it sufficiently by lowering the viral load and chances of passing it on.

If you then draw out the argument to include the unvaccinated, then you start arguing something else.

The argument of young people developing natural immunity and herd immunity doesn't fly. If natural immunity doesn't afford you immunity from a different variant, then those young people are going to just get another dose of it, and meanwhile become a factory for spreading it to others. From what I have read, the vaccines seem to give better immunity against variants than a "natural" dose does. I.e. a case of Delta may not protect you from infection from Omicron, but a RNA vaccine provides a better rate of protection. People go on about 'only' a 30 to 40% rate of protection, which I have no doubt is a lot better than 'natural' infection protecting you.

Yeah, sure.

Omicron came into Aus by all the unvaccinated travellers flying in.

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FormulaNova said..

I don't know if we have enough data to show if the virus is circulating commonly around the vaccinated. The places in the world with high vaccination rates seem to be getting it from external sources coming in, not from a local circulation. The whole argument was that the virus circulates in vaccinated groups and evolves resistance to that vaccine. If it is circulated in unvaccinated people, that argument goes away BUT it evolves anyway, just in the unvaccinated majority.

I think it would be pretty clear that without external sources, a population with high vaccination rates, the virus would peter out. The vaccines stop it sufficiently by lowering the viral load and chances of passing it on.

If you then draw out the argument to include the unvaccinated, then you start arguing something else.

The argument of young people developing natural immunity and herd immunity doesn't fly. If natural immunity doesn't afford you immunity from a different variant, then those young people are going to just get another dose of it, and meanwhile become a factory for spreading it to others. From what I have read, the vaccines seem to give better immunity against variants than a "natural" dose does. I.e. a case of Delta may not protect you from infection from Omicron, but a RNA vaccine provides a better rate of protection. People go on about 'only' a 30 to 40% rate of protection, which I have no doubt is a lot better than 'natural' infection protecting you.

Here's an article talking about vaccinated spreading Covid;

www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-risk-of-vaccinated-covid-transmission-is-not-low/%3famp=true

As for your other points you might be right, I honestly don't know. I'm just trying to relay what some outlier scientists & drs are saying. I'm probably making some mistakes in the way I present it because of my lack of technical knowledge!

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FormulaNova said..

The argument of young people developing natural immunity and herd immunity doesn't fly. If natural immunity doesn't afford you immunity from a different variant, then those young people are going to just get another dose of it, and meanwhile become a factory for spreading it to others.

One of the major factors for the level of protection developing natural immunity is the level of viral load that you recover from, natural immunity level varies depending on the viral load levels.

Anecdotally I always got what ever flu was going around getting the flu did SFA for resisting the next boult of flu unlike the flu shot I started getting which reduced my exposure considerably.

FD another issue around COVID and hospitalisation is if you have COVID and need to go to hospital for any reason you are going to end up in a COVID ward regardless simply for infection control. Hospitals are obviously full of people who if exposed will knock them over.

End result is hospitals full of COVID patients crowding out other urgent medical care.

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IFocus said..

End result is hospitals full of COVID patients crowding out other urgent medical care.

You know what the hospitals are actually full of?

Where's the daily blanket media coverage of this issue?

157,132 hospital admissions in 1 year.

Year on year on year. No end to it.

As a tax payer we are all paying for this crap.

"Up to 15 people die and more than 430 are admitted to hospital every day in Australia due to alcohol-related illnesses, new research shows."

I won't even get into domestic violence, family break downs & how it's farked our indigenous community.

Source: www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-31/15-australians-die-each-day-from-alcohol-related-illness:-study/5637050?nw=0&r=HtmlFragment

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kiterboy said..
Yeah, sure.
Tell that to the industries that have been mandated to get the experimental shot.

You've got a choice, get the jab or go homeless.

Great choice.

That was brought in prior to Omicron, when unvaxxed were 10x more likely to get the virus and 20x more likely to spread it.

I think Omicron has changed that, hopefully the vaccinating mandates will be reviewed over the next few months. We'll I guess they have to as now we are on our third jab.

I like to try to keep things as simple as possible because I realised a long time ago that complication is used largely to confuse.

The mortality rate from this disease is no longer (hasn't been for me for a long time), something to be concerned about and I realise that it will be with us forever.

The disease has been demonstrated to be easily treatable reducing the mortality rates by roughly 80%.

The vaccines were introduced under emergency authorisation on the basis that there was no treatment.

We've been sold a great big lemon.

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Flying Dutchman said..

FormulaNova said..

I don't know if we have enough data to show if the virus is circulating commonly around the vaccinated. The places in the world with high vaccination rates seem to be getting it from external sources coming in, not from a local circulation. The whole argument was that the virus circulates in vaccinated groups and evolves resistance to that vaccine. If it is circulated in unvaccinated people, that argument goes away BUT it evolves anyway, just in the unvaccinated majority.

I think it would be pretty clear that without external sources, a population with high vaccination rates, the virus would peter out. The vaccines stop it sufficiently by lowering the viral load and chances of passing it on.

If you then draw out the argument to include the unvaccinated, then you start arguing something else.

The argument of young people developing natural immunity and herd immunity doesn't fly. If natural immunity doesn't afford you immunity from a different variant, then those young people are going to just get another dose of it, and meanwhile become a factory for spreading it to others. From what I have read, the vaccines seem to give better immunity against variants than a "natural" dose does. I.e. a case of Delta may not protect you from infection from Omicron, but a RNA vaccine provides a better rate of protection. People go on about 'only' a 30 to 40% rate of protection, which I have no doubt is a lot better than 'natural' infection protecting you.

Here's an article talking about vaccinated spreading Covid;

www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-risk-of-vaccinated-covid-transmission-is-not-low/%3famp=true

As for your other points you might be right, I honestly don't know. I'm just trying to relay what some outlier scientists & drs are saying. I'm probably making some mistakes in the way I present it because of my lack of technical knowledge!

That article talks about a 2 year old catching Covid, presumably from an infected vaccinated person. I am sure the immune system of a 2 year old is going to catch anything quicker than an adult would. Probably not a great example, unless you are focusing on that age group.

The study that she refers to talks about infected vaccinated and unvaccinated people passing on the virus in the same number to their household contacts. Does this apply to other people in less close contact? Does this hold true for people walking past in the street? Or is it more likely in a household environment?

The article agrees that vaccinated people are much less likely to contract the virus in the first place. Does this then suggest that the optimal is having people vaccinated as that way they reduce the chance of getting it, and then other people are also going to have a reduced chance of catching it?

So, we seem to have arrived at a position where vaccination reduces the chances of catching the virus. Even if we assume that the ability to pass it on is the same between vaccinated and unvaccinated, that still means that vaccinated people are less likely to get it in the first place, and therefore not pass it on to anyone.

The author of that article describes taking the vaccine as a 'no-brainer', despite that the vaccinated can pass it on. Sounds reasonable to me.

Don't shy away from understanding this stuff. Its not rocket science and maybe understanding more of it can help you arrive at a level you are comfortable with instead of having to side with people that have arguments you may not be 100% with?

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japie said..
The disease has been demonstrated to be easily treatable reducing the mortality rates by roughly 80%.

The vaccines were introduced under emergency authorisation on the basis that there was no treatment.

We've been sold a great big lemon.

Easily treated by the vaccines or something else? What's the big lemon we were sold?