BTW what do people think of Joel Fitzs Cosmic Twin that I linked?

I'm kinda smitten by it ATM, as if that wasn't obvious.

The only thing that I would likely change is the fin placement.

Another set of Futures 3/4" box a fin length forward and out wider.

Would allow you to mix it up a bit or even set it up quad style.

Would likely also whack in one FCS slot for a tail biter if needed.

But that's just me loving experimenting with fin options.

Other than that board I'm intrigued by Gary McNeils torus twinnies. But they only go up to 6'6 and are hitting 46L. Would like that in a 6'8 or 6'10 at around 45L, and again with some fin placement options

Select to expand quote

Hydromann said..
BTW what do people think of Joel Fitzs Cosmic Twin that I linked?

I'm kinda smitten by it ATM, as if that wasn't obvious.

The only thing that I would likely change is the fin placement.

Another set of Futures 3/4" box a fin length forward and out wider.

Would allow you to mix it up a bit or even set it up quad style.

Would likely also whack in one FCS slot for a tail biter if needed.

But that's just me loving experimenting with fin options.

Other than that board I'm intrigued by Gary McNeils torus twinnies. But they only go up to 6'6 and are hitting 46L. Would like that in a 6'8 or 6'10 at around 45L, and again with some fin placement options

**** sounds like you need to order a custom....be sure not to get sucked in by any marketing and tell them exactly how much you know...they will love you

Select to expand quote

Tux said..

Hydromann said..
BTW what do people think of Joel Fitzs Cosmic Twin that I linked?

I'm kinda smitten by it ATM, as if that wasn't obvious.

The only thing that I would likely change is the fin placement.

Another set of Futures 3/4" box a fin length forward and out wider.

Would allow you to mix it up a bit or even set it up quad style.

Would likely also whack in one FCS slot for a tail biter if needed.

But that's just me loving experimenting with fin options.

Other than that board I'm intrigued by Gary McNeils torus twinnies. But they only go up to 6'6 and are hitting 46L. Would like that in a 6'8 or 6'10 at around 45L, and again with some fin placement options

**** sounds like you need to order a custom....be sure not to get sucked in by any marketing and tell them exactly how much you know...they will love you

I'll be sure to do that, just wont be happening anytime soon.

Select to expand quote

Hydromann said..
BTW what do people think of Joel Fitzs Cosmic Twin that I linked?

I'm kinda smitten by it ATM, as if that wasn't obvious.

The only thing that I would likely change is the fin placement.

Another set of Futures 3/4" box a fin length forward and out wider.

Would allow you to mix it up a bit or even set it up quad style.

Would likely also whack in one FCS slot for a tail biter if needed.

But that's just me loving experimenting with fin options.

Other than that board I'm intrigued by Gary McNeils torus twinnies. But they only go up to 6'6 and are hitting 46L. Would like that in a 6'8 or 6'10 at around 45L, and again with some fin placement options

I had a torus twin (suprise, suprise) 6'er with probably 40-41 litres.
Much prefer the CV2's which are quad but I ran with twins and small trailers. Had a custom 6'6" at 45 litres.
The best one was a super high volume 7'2" that was made for an old longboarder. The bigger it got the better it went. Had a continuous rocker through the bottom but a fairly flat deck and rails that Geoff McCoy would be proud of (or a sup shaper) but holy **** did that beast turn.

Select to expand quote

Hydromann said..
BTW what do people think of Joel Fitzs Cosmic Twin that I linked?

I'm kinda smitten by it ATM, as if that wasn't obvious.

The only thing that I would likely change is the fin placement.

Another set of Futures 3/4" box a fin length forward and out wider.

Would allow you to mix it up a bit or even set it up quad style.

Would likely also whack in one FCS slot for a tail biter if needed.

But that's just me loving experimenting with fin options.

Other than that board I'm intrigued by Gary McNeils torus twinnies. But they only go up to 6'6 and are hitting 46L. Would like that in a 6'8 or 6'10 at around 45L, and again with some fin placement options

Do you walk into a restaurant and go straight to the kitchen and tell the chef how to cook his food or to change his recipies ?

If a shaper offers customs he must be open to customer ideas.
If hes not . Dont offer the service .
His job is to correlate all the input and make it work.

Select to expand quote

laceys lane said..
If a shaper offers customs he must be open to customer ideas.
If hes not . Dont offer the service .
His job is to correlate all the input and make it work.

I offer my art

Their greatest challenge mac

Select to expand quote

laceys lane said..
Their greatest challenge mac

You know my I like to keep it simple

Select to expand quote

laceys lane said..
If a shaper offers customs he must be open to customer ideas.
If hes not . Dont offer the service .
His job is to correlate all the input and make it work.

I know a shaper who was not going to put his labels on a customers board as a certain customer wanted certain models butchered to their liking and the shaper knew they would be dogs

Correlate not butcher

Select to expand quote

chrispy said..

laceys lane said..
If a shaper offers customs he must be open to customer ideas.
If hes not . Dont offer the service .
His job is to correlate all the input and make it work.

I know a shaper who was not going to put his labels on a customers board as a certain customer wanted certain models butchered to their liking and the shaper knew they would be dogs

Correlate not butcher

Nothing wrong with that either
.
Most people would go to a shaper with an idea.
If hes smart he'll ask the shaper if he thinks it will work.
If hes smart hell take the shapers advice.

A inquisitive shaper doesnt mind doing something a little different.
R and d at someones else cost.
Why wouldnt shaper do customs

The succes rate of customs isnt that great imo but then it does its a good feeling.
God knows i have my big share of dogs with race sup ideas

Select to expand quote

chrispy said..

Hydromann said..
BTW what do people think of Joel Fitzs Cosmic Twin that I linked?

I'm kinda smitten by it ATM, as if that wasn't obvious.

The only thing that I would likely change is the fin placement.

Another set of Futures 3/4" box a fin length forward and out wider.

Would allow you to mix it up a bit or even set it up quad style.

Would likely also whack in one FCS slot for a tail biter if needed.

But that's just me loving experimenting with fin options.

Other than that board I'm intrigued by Gary McNeils torus twinnies. But they only go up to 6'6 and are hitting 46L. Would like that in a 6'8 or 6'10 at around 45L, and again with some fin placement options

Do you walk into a restaurant and go straight to the kitchen and tell the chef how to cook his food or to change his recipies ?

No because I don't eat out much.

But if I didn't like the food I would send it back and tell them why.

So to me it seems fair and reasonable to discuss with a shaper exactly what I do and don't like in a meaningful way, and to also accept back qualified exceptions to anything that I have discussed based on facts and not just subjective assertions or perceptions.

I'm fairly sure that just about any shaper would want to get it right for a client first up rather than risk having it sent back to his kitchen?

And more so if I am not ordering the generic sweet and sour pork version of what he does.

If that offends then that shaper will never be my chef ......... sorry shaper.

Agree hydro. I always go to my doctor and tell him how to operate on me.

My lawyer about the law.

My accountant how to do my taxes

And my hooker how to ****.

Good to see you tell your hooker what gets you off SP
But lets just keep that between you and your hooker

Select to expand quote

laceys lane said..
Good to see you tell your hooker what gets you off SP
But lets just keep that between you and your hooker

Select to expand quote

Hydromann said..

chrispy said..

Hydromann said..
BTW what do people think of Joel Fitzs Cosmic Twin that I linked?

I'm kinda smitten by it ATM, as if that wasn't obvious.

The only thing that I would likely change is the fin placement.

Another set of Futures 3/4" box a fin length forward and out wider.

Would allow you to mix it up a bit or even set it up quad style.

Would likely also whack in one FCS slot for a tail biter if needed.

But that's just me loving experimenting with fin options.

Other than that board I'm intrigued by Gary McNeils torus twinnies. But they only go up to 6'6 and are hitting 46L. Would like that in a 6'8 or 6'10 at around 45L, and again with some fin placement options

Do you walk into a restaurant and go straight to the kitchen and tell the chef how to cook his food or to change his recipies ?

No because I don't eat out much.

But if I didn't like the food I would send it back and tell them why.

So to me it seems fair and reasonable to discuss with a shaper exactly what I do and don't like in a meaningful way, and to also accept back qualified exceptions to anything that I have discussed based on facts and not just subjective assertions or perceptions.

I'm fairly sure that just about any shaper would want to get it right for a client first up rather than risk having it sent back to his kitchen?

And more so if I am not ordering the generic sweet and sour pork version of what he does.

If that offends then that shaper will never be my chef ......... sorry shaper.

You say all shapers are idiots and snake oil salesmen without any proof of design or concept and should not be trusted....and you come up with that

Ok

Select to expand quote

chrispy said..

Hydromann said..

chrispy said..

Hydromann said..
BTW what do people think of Joel Fitzs Cosmic Twin that I linked?

I'm kinda smitten by it ATM, as if that wasn't obvious.

The only thing that I would likely change is the fin placement.

Another set of Futures 3/4" box a fin length forward and out wider.

Would allow you to mix it up a bit or even set it up quad style.

Would likely also whack in one FCS slot for a tail biter if needed.

But that's just me loving experimenting with fin options.

Other than that board I'm intrigued by Gary McNeils torus twinnies. But they only go up to 6'6 and are hitting 46L. Would like that in a 6'8 or 6'10 at around 45L, and again with some fin placement options

Do you walk into a restaurant and go straight to the kitchen and tell the chef how to cook his food or to change his recipies ?

No because I don't eat out much.

But if I didn't like the food I would send it back and tell them why.

So to me it seems fair and reasonable to discuss with a shaper exactly what I do and don't like in a meaningful way, and to also accept back qualified exceptions to anything that I have discussed based on facts and not just subjective assertions or perceptions.

I'm fairly sure that just about any shaper would want to get it right for a client first up rather than risk having it sent back to his kitchen?

And more so if I am not ordering the generic sweet and sour pork version of what he does.

If that offends then that shaper will never be my chef ......... sorry shaper.

You say all shapers are idiots and snake oil salesmen without any proof of design or concept and should not be trusted....and you come up with that

Ok

Haha, yeah righto mate whatever.

I said there where a lot of snake oil sales men out there, and that everyone needs to check the facts attached to any claims made.

i also said that this was difficult to do and that it was hard to know who to believe in this regard because so many shapers seem to have their perspective on what makes a good board, and then try to come up with some sort of marketing hubba bubba around that to make it a niche product. I also stated that even among shapers there is dissent on who actually knows what, and then CW boards pops up a priceless add stating just that, exactly the point that I was trying to make, shapers bagging out other shapers.

I also recall stating that Webber and others seemed to have a very good intuitive although non engineering based understanding of hydrodynamics and the effect of subtle differences in geometry on the performance outcomes.

So please do not try to classify me as being completely anti shapers or the industry, or of classifying them all as idiots and snake oil sales men, That is a misrepresentation of the context of my statements and a fallacy of your own imagining evidenced by my actual praise of shapers whos designs and concepts make hydrodynamic and engineering sense.

So if I still **** you to tears try Isle 9, I'll show you how to get there old mate.

And for anyone else....

Not all shapers are the amazing shaping gods that their web sites and marketing would have you believe. As I have stated very clearly in the past the real ones that have proven their worth have stood the test of time.

And any new shaper gods that are presenting product to the market do not need to justify or validate to anyone the effectiveness of their product, it will speak for itself.

The point being that only you will ultimately know what works best for you, so don't get snake oiled by a whole lot of marketing mumbo jumbo and fake claims. Do a little research, find out what does work and does not work, and 9/10 time you will discover that simplicity of form beats supposed innovation and shaper specific design concepts.

And as per my past example put Bob McT and Mr McCoy in a room together and let them argue which form is better. Because based on their historical differences in design concepts and the product outcomes I think this proves my point. Also feel free to add in as many in betweeners including Mr Myerhoffer's sexy looking hour glass, I guarantee if you asked Bob McT to shape that for you way back when he would have kicked you outta the shop.

And then if I mix in the fourth dimension of time and say let's compare a 70's state of the art board to a modern one as well as different styles of riding and expected performance outcomes of each board............ the answer is always going to be very very subjective.

And no I'm not against experimentation, just saying that that is all it is. Not tried, not tested, and not proven to meet the claims attached to it just like so many so called design innovations of specific shapers.

McNeils Torus is a classic example, a design concept that he applied experimentally and then allowed significant feedback and testing of before making it a standard concept in his design offering. And take a good hard look at what he applied it to, tried, tested and proven shapes and design concepts.

In other words simplicity of form and tried and tested over unverified claims. Which I don't think as a consumer is too bad advice.

So are we all clear now? Can we please move on from past offence and hurts and be big kids again?

Cheers.

What sort of forum are you talking about.
Some new mind blowing concept of being adults.
It will never work

Select to expand quote

SP said..
Agree hydro. I always go to my doctor and tell him how to operate on me.

My lawyer about the law.

My accountant how to do my taxes

And my hooker how to ****.

Really?

When did I say tell the shaper how to shape?

I have encouraged people to challenge shapers claims.

I have encouraged people to tell the shaper what they are after and what they have found from past experience works for them.

I have told people to be discerning about what they are spending hard earned coin on and to not believe or get caught up in unsubstantiated claims.

And when I order my fish and chips I don't tell them how to cut each chip or fry it up, but I do tell them that I don't want chicken salt and to hold the vinegar.

Just like if a doctor was going to operate on me and in fact will be doing next Monday to remove a cancer I will make sure that I am fully informed of exactly what is happening and what the outcome will be. Because the size of the chunk they will cut outta my back will effect my ability to paddle, and I will make that very clear to the doctor.

Just like the lawyer that is handling my civil action case against a family member who has stolen hundreds of thousands from us is being told by me what laws and legal principles apply to the case based on two years of research that I have done.

And just like I should have been more discerning and attentive to my bookkeeper who has incorrectly entered over 4 years worth of BAS and tax data. But guess what, the onus is on me to make sure that she did the job right and did not derive an outcome based on incompetence. So I should have told them what to do, or scutinised their work more closely, or even challenged them on the claims that they made on my behalf.

As for my hooker... I don't have one.

But I'm sure if yours bit your bits off you would have wished that you explained to him what you wanted instead of assuming he would know

And if your comments were not cynical my sincere apologies.

Select to expand quote

laceys lane said..

What sort of forum are you talking about.
Some new mind blowing concept of being adults.
It will never work

Select to expand quote

chrispy said..

laceys lane said..
If a shaper offers customs he must be open to customer ideas.
If hes not . Dont offer the service .
His job is to correlate all the input and make it work.

I know a shaper who was not going to put his labels on a customers board as a certain customer wanted certain models butchered to their liking and the shaper knew they would be dogs

Correlate not butcher

Fair call on that one.

Hey hydro,

Happy to talk long fish, I have two ..... There you go, it's not just cuttlefish who is a board whore (in my defence, I am a boutique hipster board whore rather than just the common variety)

I got an 8-oh vouch vish last winter to replace a 9ft single fin.. it's a great Longboard replacement and I rode it a lot through spring and early summer. I find it quicker and as a consequence more responsive- but you do have to surf it off the tail.

It's such a barrel of fun I ordered a 6"10 vouch mid vish with glassed on keels for Xmas. For a 6'10 it's very refined and has a nice curve to the planshape. Cuttles has had a fondle and I am sure will agree.

The reason I mentioned the curves is because curvey boards turn, right? So when I want to rip and tear ... Or carve shall we say, I grab the 6'10. Nice amount of foam under my chest and the pulled in tail ensures there is no slide... Well the massive glassed in keels also help no doubt. I ride it thigh and up, with a bit of shape and push. The 8-oh generally softer conditions up to chest high- too much foam for me to duck dive.

The Fitzy long fish looks nice, I saw the footage at ulu s and it was flying. One I personally would stay away from is the Christensen phish.,. Too chunky and the tail is too wide IMO.

I saw cuttles in action on his mega cv2 and it was a board he should not have sold. Gary is great to deal with, he LL make you whatever and it will be light and high performance. I have seen his long fish up to 7"5

Hope this helps

My stretched McNeill Torus twinny is one of the best boards I've had, pulled in round tail though.
If you hit Gary up for a board and question his fin placement please let us know his response .

Select to expand quote

onefin said..
Hey hydro,

Happy to talk long fish, I have two ..... There you go, it's not just cuttlefish who is a board whore (in my defence, I am a boutique hipster board whore rather than just the common variety)

I got an 8-oh vouch vish last winter to replace a 9ft single fin.. it's a great Longboard replacement and I rode it a lot through spring and early summer. I find it quicker and as a consequence more responsive- but you do have to surf it off the tail.

It's such a barrel of fun I ordered a 6"10 vouch mid vish with glassed on keels for Xmas. For a 6'10 it's very refined and has a nice curve to the planshape. Cuttles has had a fondle and I am sure will agree.

The reason I mentioned the curves is because curvey boards turn, right? So when I want to rip and tear ... Or carve shall we say, I grab the 6'10. Nice amount of foam under my chest and the pulled in tail ensures there is no slide... Well the massive glassed in keels also help no doubt. I ride it thigh and up, with a bit of shape and push. The 8-oh generally softer conditions up to chest high- too much foam for me to duck dive.

The Fitzy long fish looks nice, I saw the footage at ulu s and it was flying. One I personally would stay away from is the Christensen phish.,. Too chunky and the tail is too wide IMO.

I saw cuttles in action on his mega cv2 and it was a board he should not have sold. Gary is great to deal with, he LL make you whatever and it will be light and high performance. I have seen his long fish up to 7"5

Hope this helps

I have a christenson nautilus. Not chunky at all. I guess you mean the actual fish not the nautilus. Don't think the fish are really designed to be stretched out to mid length size. They are a proper fish, short and wide is the go.

Nautilus Surfs really good. Great all round board. Paddles great, generates speed easy and turns great. Quad not twin though. There is some footage of a twin version with pros riding it in Hawaii and looks good. I'm not a big fan of twins.

Cheers boys, great replies and insight into direct first hand experience on these weapons.

My size range is around 6'8 to 7'6 with a volume target between 43 to 46L.

I am loving looking at big fish shapes and trying to contemplate the difference in fin placements from one shaper to the next.

Fitz on the Cosmic Twin has them set right back yet others seem to creep them forward a bit and I think McNeil said he started further back and found it worked way better setting them forward more.

My limited experience on twins has been based around the Cjet I had and now the Webber with only one surf under my feet. Hope to hit a 2m swell with offshore on a left and right reef tomorrow to get some real feelz for the twinny thing happening and either fuel or quench the desire to pursue it further.

Again thanks for the write ups and feed back guys.

One thing about the McNeill's I've had with the prints covering the deck with PU foam but carbon rails and wide carbon stripes along the bottoms with carbon rails is they are very durable.

Select to expand quote

SP said..

onefin said..
Hey hydro,

Happy to talk long fish, I have two ..... There you go, it's not just cuttlefish who is a board whore (in my defence, I am a boutique hipster board whore rather than just the common variety)

I got an 8-oh vouch vish last winter to replace a 9ft single fin.. it's a great Longboard replacement and I rode it a lot through spring and early summer. I find it quicker and as a consequence more responsive- but you do have to surf it off the tail.

It's such a barrel of fun I ordered a 6"10 vouch mid vish with glassed on keels for Xmas. For a 6'10 it's very refined and has a nice curve to the planshape. Cuttles has had a fondle and I am sure will agree.

The reason I mentioned the curves is because curvey boards turn, right? So when I want to rip and tear ... Or carve shall we say, I grab the 6'10. Nice amount of foam under my chest and the pulled in tail ensures there is no slide... Well the massive glassed in keels also help no doubt. I ride it thigh and up, with a bit of shape and push. The 8-oh generally softer conditions up to chest high- too much foam for me to duck dive.

The Fitzy long fish looks nice, I saw the footage at ulu s and it was flying. One I personally would stay away from is the Christensen phish.,. Too chunky and the tail is too wide IMO.

I saw cuttles in action on his mega cv2 and it was a board he should not have sold. Gary is great to deal with, he LL make you whatever and it will be light and high performance. I have seen his long fish up to 7"5

Hope this helps

I have a christenson nautilus. Not chunky at all. I guess you mean the actual fish not the nautilus. Don't think the fish are really designed to be stretched out to mid length size. They are a proper fish, short and wide is the go.

Nautilus Surfs really good. Great all round board. Paddles great, generates speed easy and turns great. Quad not twin though. There is some footage of a twin version with pros riding it in Hawaii and looks good. I'm not a big fan of twins.

I like the look of the nautilus and fondled a few in onboard, I was referring to a long fish that Christensen has just started making called the phish.... It's probably designed for a flatter San Diego wave than an East coast beachie anyways

Select to expand quote

Cuttlefish said..
One thing about the McNeill's I've had with the prints covering the deck with PU foam but carbon rails and wide carbon stripes along the bottoms with carbon rails is they are very durable.

Very true dat

Select to expand quote

Cuttlefish said..
One thing about the McNeill's I've had with the prints covering the deck with PU foam but carbon rails and wide carbon stripes along the bottoms with carbon rails is they are very durable.

Yeah in one of his interviews he was saying that the eco series had 10 ounce top and bottom to deal with Rasta's heavy foots. Or something to the effect of someone having size 13 clod hoppers?

His whole philosophy was to make them as durable and heavy duty as the tech allowed whilst still being absolute performance weapons. To double or triple the life of a high performing board over the disposal of mediocre environmentally damaging boards and building techniques.

More power to him.

Just a bit on shapers - years ago I made the decision that if a shaper didn't have grey hair, then I wouldn't waste my time with them. Experience and longevity doesn't come easy or early.