As there is no second hand foil section.. mine is for sale in surfboards as it screws to a surfboard

www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Kitesurfing-Surfboards/~vtf27/2013-Mhl-Foilboard-Is-Also-Quad-Surfboard-5-9.aspx?search=RCUCXWrvXuja5HgJBjy7Dg==

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Cygnify said..
Looking at jumping into the foil game. Probably will pick up my kit in a couple months or more. I got my eye set on the aluminum zeeko foil to start off with I reckon. Looking at pairing it with a shinnester foil board or maybe shinn el stubbo. I really want a fun board that will be just as awesome without the foil as with. Do either of this boards look overly difficult to learn on for foiling?

I think they will be fine but double checking before I get my heart set on one of these options. Any other similar recommendations?

I just attached a slingshot hoverglide to a BRM paipo (shinnster equivalent) and added a front foot strap. Works a treat.

Using a single inline front strap was the best advice Nico from Zeeko gave me to learn with.
That and think more about moving your body's CoG rather than thinking about feet.

Also maybe starting with the surfboard option may smooth out the nose dive phase.

If you have solid nice breeze and kite sits steady then strapless learning is probably fine, but if you have to put effort into controlling kite then that front strap is worth its weight in gold.
Using a single strap helps you keep board flatter which is best in learning stage, as you move to being able to lean board then two front straps come into it or you could be ready for strapless.

These are thoughts conveyed by Nico that worked for me.

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RAL INN said..
Using a single inline front strap was the best advice Nico from Zeeko gave me to learn with.
That and think more about moving your body's CoG rather than thinking about feet.

Also maybe starting with the surfboard option may smooth out the nose dive phase.

If you have solid nice breeze and kite sits steady then strapless learning is probably fine, but if you have to put effort into controlling kite then that front strap is worth its weight in gold.
Using a single strap helps you keep board flatter which is best in learning stage, as you move to being able to lean board then two front straps come into it or you could be ready for strapless.

These are thoughts conveyed by Nico that worked for me.

How does that work?!

Which bit?

Using straps to keep the board flatter . . .

It was more to do with using the single strap rather than 2 for beginning in order to promote keeping the board flatter which is supposedly the way to start getting going on foil.
It about foot position closer to centre of board rather than using the strap.

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RAL INN said..

It about foot position closer to centre of board rather than using the strap.

Right. And the other thing about controlling the kite with the strap is in regards to water starting, yeah?

Yeah was having a wording dislexia issue last night.
I thought sucking another JB down would help but......

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RAL INN said..
Yeah was having a wording dislexia issue last night.
I thought sucking another JB down would help but......

Har! Filtered through a Black Russian didn't help . . .

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INTHELOOP said..

Loftywinds said...

dachopper said..
$200 carbon foil MOD 2 nearly completed
Added removable mast to this one, longer fuselage.

Where did you get the carbon material from may I ask? PM if necessary. Cheers

We got source carbon ask Clint. Cheaper then anywhere else


$200 carbon is not much carbon in a foil.

The KFA foil is 3.3kg of solid carbon!

Sollar Composites . com

I tried buying in Aus and was going to get absolutely slaughtered. I mean it was something like 49 Cents a meter for Carbon Tow in Aus , vs 12 USD for 2000 feet of it from Sollar !




3.3Kg is quite heavy for a carbon foil ! Solid carbon is always going to be heavier and $$$ because of more carbon than using a laminate,

If you were worried abut weight, you should have made it hollow ;)

Or used less carbon

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dachopper said..



Sollar Composites . com

I tried buying in Aus and was going to get absolutely slaughtered. I mean it was something like 49 Cents a meter for Carbon Tow in Aus , vs 12 USD for 2000 feet of it from Sollar !




3.3Kg is quite heavy for a carbon foil ! Solid carbon is always going to be heavier and $$$ because of more carbon than using a laminate,

If you were worried abut weight, you should have made it hollow ;)

Or used less carbon

As much as I dislike KFA for their "know it all" attitude, it would be difficult to argue on their building techniques. These guys use both a press and an airbag system to apply pressure on both the inner and outer surfaces of the mast. I think they are the only one using this process. They also use only HM pre preg carbon fiber.

3.3 kg is rather heavy however it wouldn't matter too much for racing which is the sole purpose of their Foil. They were aiming at the stiffest mast on the market and it looks like they got there.

The boys at HORUE have designed a freestyle carbon foil that weights 1.4kg however they've had heaps of issues with it (breakage). They are now coming out with new construction techniques on their H14 model which should weight just around 1.3kg. You wouldn't be racing on that one though.....

It's good to see some brands innovating and bringing an alternative to racing products as most of us are probably not attracted by that side of the sport.

Now $200 for a full build sounds way too cheap, plus Carbon tow does not have the same mechanical properties as a bi-axial weave. $400-600 would sound a lot more realistic (material only). Time will tell but good to see you are stoked about building your own.

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Livit said..

dachopper said..



Sollar Composites . com

I tried buying in Aus and was going to get absolutely slaughtered. I mean it was something like 49 Cents a meter for Carbon Tow in Aus , vs 12 USD for 2000 feet of it from Sollar !




3.3Kg is quite heavy for a carbon foil ! Solid carbon is always going to be heavier and $$$ because of more carbon than using a laminate,

If you were worried abut weight, you should have made it hollow ;)

Or used less carbon

As much as I dislike KFA for their "know it all" attitude.....
3.3 kg is rather heavy however it wouldn't matter too much for racing which is the sole purpose of their Foil.

It's good to see some brands innovating and bringing an alternative to racing products as most of us are probably not attracted by that side of the sport.

A good race foil is also a good free-ride foil.... i'm happy to debate that all day long.
The newer entry level ali foils are a good mix of free-ride and entry level racing at a good rate, cant argue that.
you have some biases views as do most forum users based on their interests, interest and preferences. You have links to brands i suspect that you promote.

You seem to think you speak on behalf of everybody with your assumptive quotes.

Majority of foilers are still racers/free-riders.
Going out for a nice long cruising exploring a water space with a group is not a bad way to spend an afternoon... all racers are first and foremost free-riders.
They race possibly only 1in every 20 or 30 sessions.

The foil has evolved & gained traction due largely to the support & R&D by the race brands, now that the band wagon is bigger everybody else jumping on board.
Look back pre-race brands and you have some seriously questionable examples of what a foil was and a clear example of why it didn't have mass appeal.

In the European Kitefoil championships KFA had Florian Trittel come 3rd outright and Alejandro and Marvin came 11 and 12th respectively. That's not too shabby for a relatively tiny company from Australia.

www.kitecagliari.com/results-ec-2016/22-may-2016-overall-after-m4.pdf

The results prove that the rider makes the most difference, and that no single manufacturer has a compelling advantage over the others.

My KFA Mako weighs 3.3kg complete compared to my Liquid Force at 3.8kg. 500 grams is a pretty significant weight difference (although the price difference is pretty substantial).

At our local beach we are about 50:50 low performance foils vs high performance. I suspect everybody thinks of themselves as free riders. There's certainly a fair bit of foil jumping going on. The high performance riders go past us like we're standing still.

I really really like my Liquid Force Foil Fish. It was cheap and cheerful and got me foiling. It is so much better to spend your learning stage on a foil that doesn't cost the earth and that you can stuff up without shedding too many tears. The whole kit packs down neatly and fits into the car. The learning stage of foiling can be emotional enough without having to worry about damaging your $3000-5000 carbon foil and board.

Gorgo you have a bloody paraglider for light wind. Just go off the bluff you fool.

I have 3 paragliders (and a new one on the way). Compared to coastal flying, foiling wins hands down.

Compared to most things, foiling wins hands down.

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MaxVMGRacing said..

A good race foil is also a good free-ride foil.... i'm happy to debate that all day long.
The newer entry level ali foils are a good mix of free-ride and entry level racing at a good rate, cant argue that.
you have some biases views as do most forum users based on their interests, interest and preferences. You have links to brands i suspect that you promote.

You seem to think you speak on behalf of everybody with your assumptive quotes.

Majority of foilers are still racers/free-riders.
Going out for a nice long cruising exploring a water space with a group is not a bad way to spend an afternoon... all racers are first and foremost free-riders.
They race possibly only 1in every 20 or 30 sessions.

The foil has evolved & gained traction due largely to the support & R&D by the race brands, now that the band wagon is bigger everybody else jumping on board.
Look back pre-race brands and you have some seriously questionable examples of what a foil was and a clear example of why it didn't have mass appeal.

No affiliation mate, I pay for my gear with a bit of discount just as any returning customers I presume. They do not have a network in Australia so what is the promotion you are talking about?
I haven't been disappointed so far so I keep getting their kites and foils. I do not like their surfboards so I get them from other sources.

If one has biases view it is more likely to be one keen to off load his used speed machine to a beginner claiming that a good race foil can do it all. Maybe it can however there are much better option for this. Happy to debate that all day long....


Taaroa just released a Free ride foil so if Race gear were as good as the Free ride ones what would be the point to have them??? F one is getting onto that market as well so it shows that their is a demand for that sort of products.

Funny how every time I say that there are better products than race equipment to accommodate free riders, you're getting all huffy about it. The offer is out there for a reason.

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Livit said...

dachopper said..



Sollar Composites . com

I tried buying in Aus and was going to get absolutely slaughtered. I mean it was something like 49 Cents a meter for Carbon Tow in Aus , vs 12 USD for 2000 feet of it from Sollar !




3.3Kg is quite heavy for a carbon foil ! Solid carbon is always going to be heavier and $$$ because of more carbon than using a laminate,

If you were worried abut weight, you should have made it hollow ;)

Or used less carbon

As much as I dislike KFA for their "know it all" attitude, it would be difficult to argue on their building techniques. These guys use both a press and an airbag system to apply pressure on both the inner and outer surfaces of the mast. I think they are the only one using this process. They also use only HM pre preg carbon fiber.

3.3 kg is rather heavy however it wouldn't matter too much for racing which is the sole purpose of their Foil. They were aiming at the stiffest mast on the market and it looks like they got there.

The boys at HORUE have designed a freestyle carbon foil that weights 1.4kg however they've had heaps of issues with it (breakage). They are now coming out with new construction techniques on their H14 model which should weight just around 1.3kg. You wouldn't be racing on that one though.....

It's good to see some brands innovating and bringing an alternative to racing products as most of us are probably not attracted by that side of the sport.

Now $200 for a full build sounds way too cheap, plus Carbon tow does not have the same mechanical properties as a bi-axial weave. $400-600 would sound a lot more realistic (material only). Time will tell but good to see you are stoked about building your own.

Airbag press technology has been used by almost every bike manufacturer doing carbon construction for the last 5 or so years. I too looked at it, and it's cost prohibitive. Also - i thought their foil was solid carbon ? If so - then they wouldn't use an airbag system.

My method is far cheaper for prototyping. The foils are tough as guts, their not solid. And regarding tow- you can set the strands. At whatever angle you like, and are not limited to the 90 or triax weave angles, or the extra cost of using weave tow.

It's been interesting, my goal was to undercut the price of all the retail foils including aluminium, and for me, it was easier to do using carbon than any other material.

Given the multitude of wing designs and shapes that all seem to work well, I don't think you need to get too fancy about it. Or bang on about how superior race foils are

It just lays there begging me to test it out !

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dachopper said..
It just lays there begging me to test it out !

That rear wing is a weapon!!!!

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bigtone667 said...

dachopper said..
It just lays there begging me to test it out !

That rear wing is a weapon!!!!

The whole setup feels like a battle axe before you bolt the mast on :)

Sharks should be scared !

For anyone doing a home build, I found adding winglets to the rear wing really helped stability, going downwind is much easier, almost pleasurable. I guess anhedral or an upward curve would do the same, like most commercial foils have. A good upgrade if you have a flat rear wing.

Should get the same result with a central rear vertical Fin, But less drag... did u find it wobbled less at higher speed ?

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dachopper said..

bigtone667 said...

dachopper said..
It just lays there begging me to test it out !

That rear wing is a weapon!!!!

The whole setup feels like a battle axe before you bolt the mast on :)

Sharks should be scared !

Dachopper, just learning so not pushing the speed envelope just yet, 21 knots is my max so far so a long way to go. The foil has a strange low amplitude vibration when going very slow and supporting my weight, either speeding up or dropping the board onto the water makes it go away. Could be cavitation from the front wing hitting the rear wing.
Up at speed the foil is silent, went from little glides of 20 mtrs with the flat rear wing to 100mtr and more in one session so it really makes a difference.

Vibration I think could be caused at low speed by flapping of either front or rear wingtip + wingtip vortex shedding would get worse the slower, and more aoa you ask for.

Otherwise could just be speed related -harmonic flutter due to lack if stiffness, again the wingtip probably is the culprit, but you would think it would happen at more speeds and at higher speed if that were the case....

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dachopper said..

INTHELOOP said..

Loftywinds said...

dachopper said..
$200 carbon foil MOD 2 nearly completed
Added removable mast to this one, longer fuselage.

Where did you get the carbon material from may I ask? PM if necessary. Cheers

We got source carbon ask Clint. Cheaper then anywhere else


$200 carbon is not much carbon in a foil.

The KFA foil is 3.3kg of solid carbon!

Sollar Composites . com

I tried buying in Aus and was going to get absolutely slaughtered. I mean it was something like 49 Cents a meter for Carbon Tow in Aus , vs 12 USD for 2000 feet of it from Sollar !




3.3Kg is quite heavy for a carbon foil ! Solid carbon is always going to be heavier and $$$ because of more carbon than using a laminate,

If you were worried abut weight, you should have made it hollow ;)

Or used less carbon

This makes me laugh!!!!
Marvin has had his foils on nearly all the podiums of international races since the beginning, utilising a team of composite engineers, naval architect and shipwrights in some of the this countries and now worlds highest regarded facilities and you are trying to offer him laminate and design advice after popping out 2 half arsed protos???
Pleeeeaasseee tell me your joking???

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coxy31 said..

dachopper said..

INTHELOOP said..

Loftywinds said...

dachopper said..
$200 carbon foil MOD 2 nearly completed
Added removable mast to this one, longer fuselage.

Where did you get the carbon material from may I ask? PM if necessary. Cheers

We got source carbon ask Clint. Cheaper then anywhere else


$200 carbon is not much carbon in a foil.

The KFA foil is 3.3kg of solid carbon!

Sollar Composites . com

I tried buying in Aus and was going to get absolutely slaughtered. I mean it was something like 49 Cents a meter for Carbon Tow in Aus , vs 12 USD for 2000 feet of it from Sollar !




3.3Kg is quite heavy for a carbon foil ! Solid carbon is always going to be heavier and $$$ because of more carbon than using a laminate,

If you were worried abut weight, you should have made it hollow ;)

Or used less carbon

This makes me laugh!!!!
Marvin has had his foils on nearly all the podiums of international races since the beginning, utilising a team of composite engineers, naval architect and shipwrights in some of the this countries and now worlds highest regarded facilities and you are trying to offer him laminate and design advice after popping out 2 half arsed protos???
Pleeeeaasseee tell me your joking???

Joking about what??

He's done a great job at creating a startup business. It's a shame we don't have the facilities or expertise to do it in Australia, and yeah - I was never giving him advice on how to build the worlds' most expensive, fastest, strongest, lightest, made in the worlds' best yacht building yards on earth racing foils -

I was giving him advice on how to make a foil for $200, and facts are you don't need 3.8kg and $3800 AUS to do it,
as they say " the proof is in the pudding ", I'm test riding my " half arsed home designed and built proto" tomorrow or the next day.

If it rides better than any of the production foils that cost 5 to 15 times as much, really says something about the current state of "the best naval engineering minds really." like the ones that made the last batch of semi-foiling Vende yachts, which all sustained structural failures, and I am sure, had a significantly higher number of engineers, designers, R&D, and prototyping than carbon race foils

Foil tacking is hard....