Select to expand quote

INTHELOOP said..
Everybody i know that went straight to a high performance, well designed/ built carbon foil (you can get them 2nd hand for a similar price as new alloy foils) progresses faster, easier and has most importantly a lot more fun. Sorry mate but people who review a Spotz to be harder to gybe than a LF are off and in my opinion not very creditable.Also its pretty obvious that whoever pays the advertising is getting the browny points here.

Haha, Marvin having a little cry.... Maybe you can write to them and tell them that you disagree with their review?

I know of a few Joe riders who have been riding on Spotz for 2 seasons and cannot gybe yet. It is not an easy foil. LF is slow but easy...

Sell me your Mako 2nd hand for less than $1450 and we can start talking.

I have tried a couple of good alloy foil (not LF nor Cabrinha) and could not fault them although coming from a high modulus carbon foil. Fuselage does NOT bend as you claimed before.

Who need a high performance foil apart from racers????

Mind that alloy foils are now readily available for the benefit of people wanting to get into it at the cost of a big lightwind kite. Some of your customers who placed an order for a Mako over 3 months ago are still waiting for their delivery.... You get an alloy within a week.

Funny thing is that you criticise products that you haven't even tried.

For those interested in "Entry level foil boards for beginners" I think a 2nd hand carbon fibre is a good option - I went Spotz 1 myself. However there are pitfalls, for example KFA Mk 1 & Spotz 2 both have serious issues. I would also be careful of any carbon foil with a peg & sleeve (male & female) connection between wings & fuse as they are very vulnerable and manufacturers are moved away from them quickly.

A new alloy foil is also a good option - and the Zeeko is clearly the price / performance winner by a long shot at this stage.

Zeeko have a new design for 2016 with some tweaks:
http://zeeko-kites.com/gb/foil-series/292-alloy-foil-series-2016.html

What's new in 2016:
- New Design of the fuselageThe 2016 Zeeko Hydrofoil introduces a new design of the fuselage with a simplified connection to the wings and the mast. Thanks to a new technology of CNC, It offers a more hydrodynamical profile decreasing the drag of the fuselage at low speed.

The fuselage is even easier to be assembled, the 2 plastics connectors to the wings are deleted.

Also the fuselage is made with a new aluminium alloy which gives more rigidity, then more control at high speed and during turns. -

New plate The Foil is suitable to all board of the market with inserts and rails.Also the plate is made with a new aluminium alloy which gives more rigidity to the plate, then more control at high speed and during turns. -

New wingsWings are full G10 made with a new milling process more accurate and providing a better finishing . The wings are super strong and rigid. The wings are durable and the hydrofoil easy to control.

Also they will be producing a short / surf / freestyle board apparently:

The 108 might be a good seller.....looking for something like that!

Select to expand quote

Livit said..

INTHELOOP said..
Everybody i know that went straight to a high performance, well designed/ built carbon foil (you can get them 2nd hand for a similar price as new alloy foils) progresses faster, easier and has most importantly a lot more fun. Sorry mate but people who review a Spotz to be harder to gybe than a LF are off and in my opinion not very creditable.Also its pretty obvious that whoever pays the advertising is getting the browny points here.

Haha, Marvin having a little cry.... Maybe you can write to them and tell them that you disagree with their review?

I know of a few Joe riders who have been riding on Spotz for 2 seasons and cannot gybe yet. It is not an easy foil. LF is slow but easy...

Sell me your Mako 2nd hand for less than $1450 and we can start talking.

I have tried a couple of good alloy foil (not LF nor Cabrinha) and could not fault them although coming from a high modulus carbon foil. Fuselage does NOT bend as you claimed before.

Who need a high performance foil apart from racers????

Mind that alloy foils are now readily available for the benefit of people wanting to get into it at the cost of a big lightwind kite. Some of your customers who placed an order for a Mako over 3 months ago are still waiting for their delivery.... You get an alloy within a week.

Funny thing is that you criticise products that you haven't even tried.

Not having a cry mate, just stating my opinion. I don't really care about it to be honest. If people can't gybe a good designed foil like the Spotz2 then its more about the riders ability or him not getting any help to achieve it. With some good coaching and tips anybody will be able to do it sooner or later, it just takes time on the gear and the right conditions. Quality comes with a price! Anybody can make an alloy foil for $under $200 production costs. Laying up a good carbon foil takes at least 15 hours manpower! Machines can't lay up such especially not if the construction is sophisticated.I fully agree that anything foils which is awesome and gets people into the sport. However, paying $1500 for something you outgrow in a few sessions is still a lot of coin and something I like to point out when people consider buying a foil. Also the heavy, low volume boards are an increased risk for injury- especially for twisting your ankles.More performance in a foil means better design which i believe is beneficial for anybody. I have taught a lot of people how to foil and most of them struggled to learn on an alloy foil. As soon as the4y jumped on a Mk3 or Mako with a light board they were up and foiling straight away.For example a young 13 year old kid can't even get the LF board on their feet/waterstart in the water because it too heavy and doesn't float on its side.Stainless steal fuselage might not bend but alloy will always bend under impact! I wish that the lead times in past were shorter on the Mako but we had a lot of orders to fulfil and production was not running fully efficient yet. We are very sorry for some of the guys that waited for a while. Another reason for delay is that it is really hard to get High Modulus Carbon since it is usually only used for aerospace (90% of our customers upgraded their foils to HM construction).
All the customer that got their Mako's are super stoked with the product and they won't need too upgrade or worry that the foils breaks or fails. IT IS UNBREAKABLE and by far the stiffest foil on market!Production is now fully efficient and we can make 4 foils per week which means lead time is only 2-3 weeks upon order. I have tried most of the foils out there and i am trying anything i can get my feet on! I am also encouraging everybody to try as many foils as they can before purchasing. Happy foiling!

Select to expand quote

INTHELOOP said..

However, paying $1500 for something you outgrow in a few sessions is still a lot of coin and something I like to point out when people consider buying a foil. Also the heavy, low volume boards are an increased risk for injury- especially for twisting your ankles.More performance in a foil means better design which i believe is beneficial for anybody.

Can you be more specific about outgrowing an alloy foil? People like me who don't care about racing may not be interested in going to a foil like a Mako.

Check this out:







In video #3 Greg seems to be on an alloy foil with no volume board. Seems he has not outgrown it yet.....

A lot of freeriding fun where you actually don't want a foil like a Mako which is designed to go fast and stable in straight line......

I recently spoke a respected foil designer/builder who admitted he was using his Alloy foil for wave riding as its design made it more fun to play in the waves.


When you say people should go for a light set up, I have seen the Alpine set up at (custom board + alloy foil) at just 4.8kg. KFA MK3 is a heavy foil in comparison. Haven't weighed the Mako but I hope it is lighter as most competitors are below 3kg for the foil only.

Low volume board are great for freeriding and strapless.

There is a lot of good foil out there but I don't think the Mako particularly stands out.... Probably good for racing but its design is very restrictive as the Wing/Fuselage/Stab is a one piece. On more mature market for foil, designer are coming up with different wings for racing, wave riding, speed crossing, freestyling.

Mako does not have this option.


In a nutshell, your argument is just not pertinent.

here's the direct link to the Zeeko PDF.
issuu.com/zeeko-kites.com/docs/zeeko-foil-uk_pdf/1

Price is same and they will be ready for shipping late January early Feb.

I agree with Livit in that most freeriding Foilers will not "outgrow" their Zeeko Alloy foils.
Plus the fact that the demand for the Alloy foils keeps their resale value at moment at nearly 75% (i can only use Zeeko as an example)means those that go Alloy to start with, can move up to Carbon if they want to race with very little Changeover cost penalty.

Second session on the LF today, first decent session. Life is much easier when you can ride a little and piss off upwind away from the shallows...

God, what a weird feeling... but then getting back onto a twin tip was weirder!

For those that were interested.

US $9 for carbon, $7 mandrel, and I would guess under $10 for glue, plastic, and tape.

Next up I'll make the carbon mast, then the attachment pieces.

How strong is it? I can stand on it end for end supported, and at the moment it's 30% oversized ! probably under 5 mm of deflection total

Nick

Select to expand quote

dachopper said..
For those that were interested.

US $9 for carbon, $7 mandrel, and I would guess under $10 for glue, plastic, and tape.

Next up I'll make the carbon mast, then the attachment pieces.

How strong is it? I can stand on it end for end supported, and at the moment it's 30% oversized ! probably under 5 mm of deflection total

Nick

Can I place an order - will pay you $100 cash

Sorry but this bad boy isn't for production, at least not at the moment.

Let me do some testing, and I'll find a price


Actually, 1 x $15 roll of carbon, was enough to do the mast, and the lifting foil with 1/3 of the roll left over ... :)

Gi'day Nick

What part of the foil is that?

Craig

It's the lifting front foil.

I tried the H 105 profile .

Once I have the fuselage, I will trim the sides and put winglets on it.

Not for Beginners but we can dream.

Carbon mast completed - a couple days left to dry

Finish looks great - Now for the fuselage !

Select to expand quote

dachopper said..
Sorry but this bad boy isn't for production, at least not at the moment.

Let me do some testing, and I'll find a price


Actually, 1 x $15 roll of carbon, was enough to do the mast, and the lifting foil with 1/3 of the roll left over ... :)

What's your layup schedule?
.

$15 roll of carbon ? What are the specs for the cloth and size , seems too cheap . I been using ****loads of carbon and epoxy building a trimaran, the stuffs as dear as poison.

the kite foil I made I used $200 worth of carbon and epoxy .

2016 Slingshot line up includes a $900 foil. Looks good too...

Select to expand quote

Kamikuza said..
2016 Slingshot line up includes a $900 foil. Looks good too...

Sorry, 1,950 AU dollars LOL

Select to expand quote

Kamikuza said..

Kamikuza said..
2016 Slingshot line up includes a $900 foil. Looks good too...

Sorry, 1,950 AU dollars LOL

5.2kg........

Select to expand quote

dachopper said...
For those that were interested.

US $9 for carbon, $7 mandrel, and I would guess under $10 for glue, plastic, and tape.

Next up I'll make the carbon mast, then the attachment pieces.

How strong is it? I can stand on it end for end supported, and at the moment it's 30% oversized ! probably under 5 mm of deflection total

Nick

Would love to know your material supplier seems us in the industry are getting ripped off big time with quality materials by sp systems and the likes

From the prices you are quoting, it's obvious that you are using some kind of pre-manufactured carbon weave - pre pregnated or not, that is why your cost is 10 times my cost. The key is that you are using boat building techniques to build a foil - and I am using rocket and missile building techniques to build mine :)

I already posted my supplier on this forum.

I buy from www.sollercomposites.com/

They STILL have my carbon for sale at $15 a pound, which is 1700 feet, of which I used about 900 feet to laminate each of the foils, so 1 x $15 roll was enough to make both the mast and the Lifting foil - with my technique. Maybe your weave would be cheaper on here than your supplier, but until you improve your method of production - you will not be able to touch the price point that I have developed - actually I made the technique for something else but it's useful for a lot of things, hence why I gave the foil a crack.

The manufacturing technique I use - let's me pick how many layers and what ever winding angle I like with the carbon, it ends up vastly stronger and lighter than using a pre=manufactured cross weave with or without vaccum bagging. :)

Select to expand quote

dachopper said..
From the prices you are quoting, it's obvious that you are using some kind of pre-manufactured carbon weave - pre pregnated or not, that is why your cost is 10 times my cost. The key is that you are using boat building techniques to build a foil - and I am using rocket and missile building techniques to build mine :)

I already posted my supplier on this forum.

I buy from www.sollercomposites.com/

They STILL have my carbon for sale at $15 a pound, which is 1700 feet, of which I used about 900 feet to laminate each of the foils, so 1 x $15 roll was enough to make both the mast and the Lifting foil - with my technique. Maybe your weave would be cheaper on here than your supplier, but until you improve your method of production - you will not be able to touch the price point that I have developed - actually I made the technique for something else but it's useful for a lot of things, hence why I gave the foil a crack.

The manufacturing technique I use - let's me pick how many layers and what ever winding angle I like with the carbon, it ends up vastly stronger and lighter than using a pre=manufactured cross weave with or without vaccum bagging. :)

So what your saying is your using carbon tow and filiment winding it on a preform or die?

Select to expand quote

Livit said..

Kamikuza said..

Kamikuza said..
2016 Slingshot line up includes a $900 foil. Looks good too...

Sorry, 1,950 AU dollars LOL

5.2kg........

For the Nth time, not everyone gives the slightest toss about racing, going fast, or living on the bleeding edge. Or carbon.

Select to expand quote

Kamikuza said..

For the Nth time, not everyone gives the slightest toss about racing, going fast, or living on the bleeding edge. Or carbon.

Some other alloys are roughly 3kg, doesn't have to be carbon to be light.... 5.2kg is way too much.

Select to expand quote

Livit said..

Kamikuza said..

For the Nth time, not everyone gives the slightest toss about racing, going fast, or living on the bleeding edge. Or carbon.

Some other alloys are roughly 3kg, doesn't have to be carbon to be light.... 5.2kg is way too much.

Quick check revealed no weight listed in home pages for Zeeko, Alpine, LF or Cabrinha aluminum foils. The Manta is listed as 3.5kg with the same style head (I assume) and it's a lot less chunky than Slingshot. Assuming they're accurate (and that's been questioned) you're moaning about 1.7kg. I get that in water jammed down the neck of my wetsuit...

What difference will that make? (Serious question)

Select to expand quote

Rattlehead said..

dachopper said..
From the prices you are quoting, it's obvious that you are using some kind of pre-manufactured carbon weave - pre pregnated or not, that is why your cost is 10 times my cost. The key is that you are using boat building techniques to build a foil - and I am using rocket and missile building techniques to build mine :)

I already posted my supplier on this forum.

I buy from www.sollercomposites.com/

They STILL have my carbon for sale at $15 a pound, which is 1700 feet, of which I used about 900 feet to laminate each of the foils, so 1 x $15 roll was enough to make both the mast and the Lifting foil - with my technique. Maybe your weave would be cheaper on here than your supplier, but until you improve your method of production - you will not be able to touch the price point that I have developed - actually I made the technique for something else but it's useful for a lot of things, hence why I gave the foil a crack.

The manufacturing technique I use - let's me pick how many layers and what ever winding angle I like with the carbon, it ends up vastly stronger and lighter than using a pre=manufactured cross weave with or without vaccum bagging. :)

So what your saying is your using carbon tow and filiment winding it on a preform or die?

Rattlehead said..

dachopper said..
From the prices you are quoting, it's obvious that you are using some kind of pre-manufactured carbon weave - pre pregnated or not, that is why your cost is 10 times my cost. The key is that you are using boat building techniques to build a foil - and I am using rocket and missile building techniques to build mine :)

I already posted my supplier on this forum.

I buy from www.sollercomposites.com/

They STILL have my carbon for sale at $15 a pound, which is 1700 feet, of which I used about 900 feet to laminate each of the foils, so 1 x $15 roll was enough to make both the mast and the Lifting foil - with my technique. Maybe your weave would be cheaper on here than your supplier, but until you improve your method of production - you will not be able to touch the price point that I have developed - actually I made the technique for something else but it's useful for a lot of things, hence why I gave the foil a crack.

The manufacturing technique I use - let's me pick how many layers and what ever winding angle I like with the carbon, it ends up vastly stronger and lighter than using a pre=manufactured cross weave with or without vaccum bagging. :)

So what your saying is your using carbon tow and filiment winding it on a preform or die?

;)

Select to expand quote

INTHELOOP said..

Livit said..

INTHELOOP said..
Everybody i know that went straight to a high performance, well designed/ built carbon foil (you can get them 2nd hand for a similar price as new alloy foils) progresses faster, easier and has most importantly a lot more fun. Sorry mate but people who review a Spotz to be harder to gybe than a LF are off and in my opinion not very creditable.Also its pretty obvious that whoever pays the advertising is getting the browny points here.

Haha, Marvin having a little cry.... Maybe you can write to them and tell them that you disagree with their review?

I know of a few Joe riders who have been riding on Spotz for 2 seasons and cannot gybe yet. It is not an easy foil. LF is slow but easy...

Sell me your Mako 2nd hand for less than $1450 and we can start talking.

I have tried a couple of good alloy foil (not LF nor Cabrinha) and could not fault them although coming from a high modulus carbon foil. Fuselage does NOT bend as you claimed before.

Who need a high performance foil apart from racers????

Mind that alloy foils are now readily available for the benefit of people wanting to get into it at the cost of a big lightwind kite. Some of your customers who placed an order for a Mako over 3 months ago are still waiting for their delivery.... You get an alloy within a week.

Funny thing is that you criticise products that you haven't even tried.

Not having a cry mate, just stating my opinion. I don't really care about it to be honest. If people can't gybe a good designed foil like the Spotz2 then its more about the riders ability or him not getting any help to achieve it. With some good coaching and tips anybody will be able to do it sooner or later, it just takes time on the gear and the right conditions. Quality comes with a price! Anybody can make an alloy foil for $under $200 production costs. Laying up a good carbon foil takes at least 15 hours manpower! Machines can't lay up such especially not if the construction is sophisticated.I fully agree that anything foils which is awesome and gets people into the sport. However, paying $1500 for something you outgrow in a few sessions is still a lot of coin and something I like to point out when people consider buying a foil. Also the heavy, low volume boards are an increased risk for injury- especially for twisting your ankles.More performance in a foil means better design which i believe is beneficial for anybody. I have taught a lot of people how to foil and most of them struggled to learn on an alloy foil. As soon as the4y jumped on a Mk3 or Mako with a light board they were up and foiling straight away.For example a young 13 year old kid can't even get the LF board on their feet/waterstart in the water because it too heavy and doesn't float on its side.Stainless steal fuselage might not bend but alloy will always bend under impact! I wish that the lead times in past were shorter on the Mako but we had a lot of orders to fulfil and production was not running fully efficient yet. We are very sorry for some of the guys that waited for a while. Another reason for delay is that it is really hard to get High Modulus Carbon since it is usually only used for aerospace (90% of our customers upgraded their foils to HM construction).
All the customer that got their Mako's are super stoked with the product and they won't need too upgrade or worry that the foils breaks or fails. IT IS UNBREAKABLE and by far the stiffest foil on market!Production is now fully efficient and we can make 4 foils per week which means lead time is only 2-3 weeks upon order. I have tried most of the foils out there and i am trying anything i can get my feet on! I am also encouraging everybody to try as many foils as they can before purchasing. Happy foiling!

Its interesting how everyone gets all worked up on foil types. As the sport grows, there will be people on slow free-ride foils, old dungers, fast race foils... what ever floats your boat. I had an alloy zeeko, loved it, got a mako just cause I wanted to try one, love it. they are all fun. They scare the **** out of you, you crash and its a hoot. live and let live.

There are plenty of foils kicking around now to try among friends. In our little foil group there are home made slow as fiberglass jobs, slingshot, zeeko alloy, spotz and my KFA Mako, and you can see the strengths of each foil. Even the crappy fiberglass one served its purpose of getting me up first time out and infecting me with the foil bug.

I think for me (not racing...well only against friends : ) on std blow up kites, riding in soupy open ocean I could happily ride any of them except the home made one..(its rides like its got brakes on)...what one foil does better than the other...it seems to balance out with what kite people run... surf, freeride etc.

For anyone reading this thread confused... its all fun, painful and scary..just jump in : )

It is fun....and scary. Like learning all over. I was thrilled that yesterday I did my first gybes, both with foil down and board only turn, and better again with foil up and flying and riding toeside for the first time. Each day is a learning curve. I have had more salt water in my nose and ears than I have in years....and more body slam beatings. But it sure is worth it. I just finished shaping my Paipo a couple weeks ago and have given this board a nice run now and love it. I don't want to race, just want to cruise and have fun when the wind is light.....at least for now anyways.

Select to expand quote

skebstebamal said..


Its interesting how everyone gets all worked up on foil types. As the sport grows, there will be people on slow free-ride foils, old dungers, fast race foils... what ever floats your boat. I had an alloy zeeko, loved it, got a mako just cause I wanted to try one, love it. they are all fun. They scare the **** out of you, you crash and its a hoot. live and let live.

There are plenty of foils kicking around now to try among friends. In our little foil group there are home made slow as fiberglass jobs, slingshot, zeeko alloy, spotz and my KFA Mako, and you can see the strengths of each foil. Even the crappy fiberglass one served its purpose of getting me up first time out and infecting me with the foil bug.

I think for me (not racing...well only against friends : ) on std blow up kites, riding in soupy open ocean I could happily ride any of them except the home made one..(its rides like its got brakes on)...what one foil does better than the other...it seems to balance out with what kite people run... surf, freeride etc.

For anyone reading this thread confused... its all fun, painful and scary..just jump in : )

Well said.

No one style rules so it's no good trying to degrade the worth of any particular style of foil because it's not Your Style.
Our 2016 Alloy foils are being shipped as i write this and really for me personally being able to get out side and coast cruise is the only aim at moment.
So once again it's OCD tracking checking till the fun starts again.

Select to expand quote

Kamikuza said...

Livit said..

Kamikuza said..

For the Nth time, not everyone gives the slightest toss about racing, going fast, or living on the bleeding edge. Or carbon.

Some other alloys are roughly 3kg, doesn't have to be carbon to be light.... 5.2kg is way too much.

Quick check revealed no weight listed in home pages for Zeeko, Alpine, LF or Cabrinha aluminum foils. The Manta is listed as 3.5kg with the same style head (I assume) and it's a lot less chunky than Slingshot. Assuming they're accurate (and that's been questioned) you're moaning about 1.7kg. I get that in water jammed down the neck of my wetsuit...

What difference will that make? (Serious question)

I think what Livit is pointing out is that there are plenty of choices in Alloy foils that not only are fun but not over weight. And while weight plays second fiddle to stiffness, it plays little sense to take no notice of weight as you would expect a competent designer to be competitive in both stiffness and weight.
We have seen the efforts of the big brand kite companies rushing to grab a piece of the foil market. It would be great if they relaxed a bit and put their efforts towards designs that moved the technology forward.
Yes not everyone is into racing and as foiling grows the racers will drop in percentage it doesn't mean us non racers need to accept over weight designs.

Select to expand quote

dachopper said...
From the prices you are quoting, it's obvious that you are using some kind of pre-manufactured carbon weave - pre pregnated or not, that is why your cost is 10 times my cost. The key is that you are using boat building techniques to build a foil - and I am using rocket and missile building techniques to build mine :)

I already posted my supplier on this forum.

I buy from www.sollercomposites.com/

They STILL have my carbon for sale at $15 a pound, which is 1700 feet, of which I used about 900 feet to laminate each of the foils, so 1 x $15 roll was enough to make both the mast and the Lifting foil - with my technique. Maybe your weave would be cheaper on here than your supplier, but until you improve your method of production - you will not be able to touch the price point that I have developed - actually I made the technique for something else but it's useful for a lot of things, hence why I gave the foil a crack.

The manufacturing technique I use - let's me pick how many layers and what ever winding angle I like with the carbon, it ends up vastly stronger and lighter than using a pre=manufactured cross weave with or without vaccum bagging. :)

Im pretty sure I know your technique mate, I done most of my time building composite spars and as far as I know some of those sections I spun all those years ago are still up in orbit ??
Anyway I look forward to seeing your finished product and good on you for giving it a crack..
I myself bit the bullet and bought a 2nd hand spotz 2 and put a box in an old north rocket fish all up she owes me 1200 bucks, cheap in the sceam of things I reckon considering the RND and tooling put into the things!!I could of sat in shed ghining around for weeks building something that probably wouldn't of been ideal or worked at all for 500bucks but instead spent a little and was out foiling a few days later (4th day down and still out of control but up on foil and getting it more sorted every time I use it)