Some refurbed Spotz2 Masts with brand new wings going cheap in the buy/sell section if lads are looking for a low cost entry to foiling.There quite a few board builders now also making great boards locally in Aus for around 1k. UniDrive (melboube), Bischops Boards Perth, and a guy down in Margs River just made awesome bambo decked boars for a local here.

All those guys wondering about how to avoid galvanic corrosion with carbon parts.

Simple answer is to use titanium. And if your paying 3 to 4 grand for a foil board, I would expect at a "minimum" - they would use 20 grams of the stuff, and add $20 to the board price.

Aluminium + carbon = asking for trouble, a cheap way to get performance, but you need a real barrier solution

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dachopper said..
All those guys wondering about how to avoid galvanic corrosion with carbon parts.

Simple answer is to use titanium. And if your paying 3 to 4 grand for a foil board, I would expect at a "minimum" - they would use 20 grams of the stuff, and add $20 to the board price.

Aluminium + carbon = asking for trouble, a cheap way to get performance, but you need a real barrier solution

Aluminium foil are more between 1-1.5 grand. They usually come with laminated FG wings or G10. At 3-4 k you get a full carbon construction.


Not much point to use Titanium for entry level, plus I guess the weight would be greater too. Aluminium foil are already between 3.5 and 4.5kg which is already fairly heavy.

The Zeeko Alloy foils are all Aluminium so all bolts and screws are into of through Alloy. The stabilizer fin is a twin tip fin so G10 or similar.
So using the anti sieze is important.

As for Titanium. I remember a complete set of Titanium bolts for a Sprintcar saved about 5 pounds (maybe 2 kg). I don't think titanium is worth the saving in weight or corrosive-ness. Plus I don't think there is an issue with Stainless bolts into GRP but there certainly is between Stainless and Alloy.

When our first 2016 Alloy foils arrive I'll see if anything has changed.

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dachopper said..
All those guys wondering about how to avoid galvanic corrosion with carbon parts.

Simple answer is to use titanium. And if your paying 3 to 4 grand for a foil board, I would expect at a "minimum" - they would use 20 grams of the stuff, and add $20 to the board price.

Aluminium + carbon = asking for trouble, a cheap way to get performance, but you need a real barrier solution

I didn't think galvanic corrosion was a problem between carbon and ss, or is it? Only with aluminum and carbon or so I thought based on a Zeeko post about why they won't do warranty work on their alu foil if paired with carbon wings.

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Livit said..

dachopper said..
All those guys wondering about how to avoid galvanic corrosion with carbon parts.

Simple answer is to use titanium. And if your paying 3 to 4 grand for a foil board, I would expect at a "minimum" - they would use 20 grams of the stuff, and add $20 to the board price.

Aluminium + carbon = asking for trouble, a cheap way to get performance, but you need a real barrier solution

Aluminium foil are more between 1-1.5 grand. They usually come with laminated FG wings or G10. At 3-4 k you get a full carbon construction.


Not much point to use Titanium for entry level, plus I guess the weight would be greater too. Aluminium foil are already between 3.5 and 4.5kg which is already fairly heavy.

You can find me new aluminium foils and board for $1000 - $1500 ?

Where?

Check this out for a better explanation.



The further apart stuff is, the more it will react. You can see that graphite and titanium are next to each other, meaning ther will not - or will have minimal reaction. Carbon will probably eat stainless - unless it's a special stainless or vice verca

regarding titanium, it's actually slightly heavier than aluminium, but twice the strength, the real benefit, is that it doesn't have a " fatigue life" like aluminium, and is more like steel in that sense."

I was acutally referring to the way you would use titanium - which would be carbon foil, with titanium bolts instead of aluminium or stainless bolts - rather than a titanium Fin - although this would have benefits. not Vs carbon.


... I'm pretty sure I can manufacture a carbon mast, probably for $30-40 US cost. so at the prices retailers are charging, still don't know why you would go with Ali.

On the entry level foil topic,

I tried out the Liquid force Fish foil and board a few months ago - with no lessons or any foiling experience.

Day 1 I went for only about an hour, and got the hang of getting up and riding on the board, and " kicking" the back up to get onto the foil at slow speed.
The footstraps were not installed, so I also notice that my stance was significantly forward of where the footstrap positions were when just cruising cracked off the wind ( for both feet )
I ended up riding with back foot 90 degrees to forward motion, and more towards the toe edge for balance, and my front foot along the heelside rail pointing forwards - which gave good control for balance when riding upright - which was all I did on day 1 - sort of felt like balancing in a skateboard while being towed by a kite.

Day 2, more wind, and another ~ 2 hours of riding, I was comfortably getting up and cranking upwind or floating downwind with relative ease, and could pretty easily control the ride height. I tried a couple slower speed gybes, basically by turning the board down, hang 10 when you swap feet, and then twist it around, and managed a slow speed foil gybe on one occasion.

Overall - an easy to use foil for me, seemed simple enough, only negs are that the board was a little difficult to fit into the car I had, and don't know if there are smaller boards out there, but once your up and riding, I really cannot see the point of such a long board.

Nick

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dachopper said..



You can find me new aluminium foils and board for $1000 - $1500 ?

Where?

Zeeko Alloy cost roughly $1000 delivered to Oz. You don't need a foil specific board for learning, therefore a shaper could modify an existing board for less than $200.

Do it yourself and it will cost you $15 and $80 (depending if you go for 4 holes or a box/inserts). Making your own board from a blank could cost you between $250 and $400 if you have all the required equipment.

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dachopper said..

regarding titanium, it's actually slightly heavier than aluminium, but twice the strength, the real benefit, is that it doesn't have a " fatigue life" like aluminium, and is more like steel in that sense."

I was acutally referring to the way you would use titanium - which would be carbon foil, with titanium bolts instead of aluminium or stainless bolts - rather than a titanium Fin - although this would have benefits. not Vs carbon.


... I'm pretty sure I can manufacture a carbon mast, probably for $30-40 US cost. so at the prices retailers are charging, still don't know why you would go with Ali.

Well, if you are that talented and can pull out a good carbon mast for $30-40 then you should get in the business and milk the f***k out of it. It would be very nice of you to share the details of your supplier as all I can get for $40 is 1 litre of epoxy......

I personally ride a high modulus carbon foil but have ridden the Zeeko alloy on multiple occasion and I must say it is a well balanced entry level foil. If it had been available when I got started I would have gone for that one for sure.

It requires the extra maintenance with the TEF gel every second week but it is done in about 5 minutes. My friend who rides it hasn't noticed any sign of fatigue nor corrosion after 30+ sessions so I guess it can't be that bad.


There are a few forums with experts where you would get an answer as of why no one uses Titanium. As far as I am concerned, I think the current offer fits the bill pretty well considering that they are only half the cost of a carbon fibre.

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dachopper said..
On the entry level foil topic,

I tried out the Liquid force Fish foil and board a few months ago - with no lessons or any foiling experience.

Day 1 I went for only about an hour, and got the hang of getting up and riding on the board, and " kicking" the back up to get onto the foil at slow speed.
The footstraps were not installed, so I also notice that my stance was significantly forward of where the footstrap positions were when just cruising cracked off the wind ( for both feet )
I ended up riding with back foot 90 degrees to forward motion, and more towards the toe edge for balance, and my front foot along the heelside rail pointing forwards - which gave good control for balance when riding upright - which was all I did on day 1 - sort of felt like balancing in a skateboard while being towed by a kite.

Day 2, more wind, and another ~ 2 hours of riding, I was comfortably getting up and cranking upwind or floating downwind with relative ease, and could pretty easily control the ride height. I tried a couple slower speed gybes, basically by turning the board down, hang 10 when you swap feet, and then twist it around, and managed a slow speed foil gybe on one occasion.

Overall - an easy to use foil for me, seemed simple enough, only negs are that the board was a little difficult to fit into the car I had, and don't know if there are smaller boards out there, but once your up and riding, I really cannot see the point of such a long board.

Nick

Useful tips. Bigger board helps learning to cruise out of nose first touch downs. I had thought that the foil fish was one of the smaller boards. The slingshot alien air seems massive in comparison.

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weebitbreezy said..

dachopper said..
On the entry level foil topic,

I tried out the Liquid force Fish foil and board a few months ago - with no lessons or any foiling experience.

Day 1 I went for only about an hour, and got the hang of getting up and riding on the board, and " kicking" the back up to get onto the foil at slow speed.
The footstraps were not installed, so I also notice that my stance was significantly forward of where the footstrap positions were when just cruising cracked off the wind ( for both feet )
I ended up riding with back foot 90 degrees to forward motion, and more towards the toe edge for balance, and my front foot along the heelside rail pointing forwards - which gave good control for balance when riding upright - which was all I did on day 1 - sort of felt like balancing in a skateboard while being towed by a kite.

Day 2, more wind, and another ~ 2 hours of riding, I was comfortably getting up and cranking upwind or floating downwind with relative ease, and could pretty easily control the ride height. I tried a couple slower speed gybes, basically by turning the board down, hang 10 when you swap feet, and then twist it around, and managed a slow speed foil gybe on one occasion.

Overall - an easy to use foil for me, seemed simple enough, only negs are that the board was a little difficult to fit into the car I had, and don't know if there are smaller boards out there, but once your up and riding, I really cannot see the point of such a long board.

Nick

Useful tips. Bigger board helps learning to cruise out of nose first touch downs. I had thought that the foil fish was one of the smaller boards. The slingshot alien air seems massive in comparison.

$40 for a liter of epoxy aint bad, you would probably use 100 grams on a mast.... $4.

+ the carbon.... definitely less than 1000 feet of 12K... that's $22 per pound roll

+ a couple expendibles = les than $40 easy

sollarcomposites is who I use. specially for the 12K carbon, they are CHEAP !

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dachopper said..

$40 for a liter of epoxy aint bad, you would probably use 100 grams on a mast.... $4.

+ the carbon.... definitely less than 1000 feet of 12K... that's $22 per pound roll

+ a couple expendibles = les than $40 easy

sollarcomposites is who I use. specially for the 12K carbon, they are CHEAP !

Haha, you are talking about making a hydro foil shaped key ring, right? I make only boards but knowing how the foils are made, I would guess at least 1 to 1.5kg of resin goes in the build, and that does not include the waste between the many steps.

1 kg of resin..............what are you building, a 1 inch thick solid carbon pole???.

Comes down to the process u use. I would bet 2 to 3 mm skin laminate thickness would be all that's required. You could drive your car over it, and it wouldn't break. That would use about 100 g. Of resin or so. No where near 1 kg. !

I'm using a process of squeegee rollers to get the right laminate / resin ratio. It works extremely well.

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dachopper said..
1 kg of resin..............what are you building, a 1 inch thick solid carbon pole???.

Comes down to the process u use. I would bet 2 to 3 mm skin laminate thickness would be all that's required. You could drive your car over it, and it wouldn't break. That would use about 100 g. Of resin or so. No where near 1 kg. !

I'm using a process of squeegee rollers to get the right laminate / resin ratio. It works extremely well.

I think you just have no idea what you are talking about.... The "process" of squeegee rollers sounds impressive!!!!!

I might be wrong though so maybe you can build one and let us try it....

When you're in the boat building business, you really have to think outside the box to make something like this, about $50.

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dachopper said...




When you're in the boat building business, you really have to think outside the box to make something like this, about $50.

I did get a quote from a professional business before making my own, it was $240 from memory.

The main companies' carbon foils have masts of solid carbon - hence they can be strong and stiff enough at 13mm thick, and they use more carbon and resin than you're budgeting for. You'd have to go a fair bit thicker if you just wanted to wrap a foam/balsa/pawlonia core in carbon.

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coxy31 said..


$400 maybe not $40
I'm a boatbuilder/shipwright of 16years and do nothing but carbon composite work

That's about right. Most of the people I know who made their foil said they spent about $500 for the material only.

When I started to build my boards, I spent over $1000 for the equipment (router, planer, orbital sander, sander/polisher, surforms, sanding pads, cutting compounds, vac pump and gauge, vac valve, c-lockers for vac bag, vac bagging consumables, clamps, dust and chem mask).

As djdojo mentioned, most of the manufacturers have solid carbon masts, generally between 10 and 16 mm. The challenge for a 10mm thick is to maintain stiffness. A 16mm will be stiffer but probably a lot slower.

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djdojo said..
The main companies' carbon foils have masts of solid carbon - hence they can be strong and stiff enough at 13mm thick, and they use more carbon and resin than you're budgeting for. You'd have to go a fair bit thicker if you just wanted to wrap a foam/balsa/pawlonia core in carbon.

It sound like its more down to the way they are having to make it, rather than a smart design in choosing a solid carbon component. The strands in the center would be doing stuff all at keeping it stiff. Imagine a meter long strip of 2mm carbon laminated. It bends, and that's all the central 2mm of a solid core would be providing, unless they are doing something rare with their layup.

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dachopper said..

djdojo said..
The main companies' carbon foils have masts of solid carbon - hence they can be strong and stiff enough at 13mm thick, and they use more carbon and resin than you're budgeting for. You'd have to go a fair bit thicker if you just wanted to wrap a foam/balsa/pawlonia core in carbon.

It sound like its more down to the way they are having to make it, rather than a smart design in choosing a solid carbon component. The strands in the center would be doing stuff all at keeping it stiff. Imagine a meter long strip of 2mm carbon laminated. It bends, and that's all the central 2mm of a solid core would be providing, unless they are doing something rare with their layup.

Dude, just make one then let us have a go. Since you seem to know things that the other manufacturer don't, you should be able to make those products more affordable for all of us....

What is your background?

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dachopper said..
All those guys wondering about how to avoid galvanic corrosion with carbon parts.

Simple answer is to use titanium. And if your paying 3 to 4 grand for a foil board, I would expect at a "minimum" - they would use 20 grams of the stuff, and add $20 to the board price.

Aluminium + carbon = asking for trouble, a cheap way to get performance, but you need a real barrier solution

Mate adding 20 grams of titanium won't simply make it $20 more expensive. The manufacturer will need new tooling, moulds, dies etc. Not only that but these will all need to be stronger as titanium alloys aren't as easy to work with and there is far less available knowledge and skills.

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flyingcab said..

dachopper said..
All those guys wondering about how to avoid galvanic corrosion with carbon parts.

Simple answer is to use titanium. And if your paying 3 to 4 grand for a foil board, I would expect at a "minimum" - they would use 20 grams of the stuff, and add $20 to the board price.

Aluminium + carbon = asking for trouble, a cheap way to get performance, but you need a real barrier solution

Mate adding 20 grams of titanium won't simply make it $20 more expensive. The manufacturer will need new tooling, moulds, dies etc. Not only that but these will all need to be stronger as titanium alloys aren't as easy to work with and there is far less available knowledge and skills.

There is no doubt that Ti is more $ than aluminium, I was simply saying that for those that do use a carbon construction, since you cannot make carbon bolts, that titanium bolts and inserts made more sense, than carbon, protective layers / gels and aluminium.

Up to manufacturers with which path they go down, but for the prices some of them are charging......

you would be surprised what you can make in your garage these days - Can you tell which technique I used on that tube? I'll give you a clue to unthrow you - I sprayed it with clear after to test the finish level , but it wasn't finished like that to begin with.

Anyhow,

Once I've made mine, I'll take some pics, weigh it, use it, try to break it. If it fails - I'll up my price and say it would cost me $400.

About $200 for this one but broke the alloy fuselage fairly quickly so building a carbon one now. Mast is moulded, 6 layers of carbon each side but came out thicker than I would have liked, next one will be thinner but solid carbon.

Im surprised one hasnt been made with a 3D printer yet.

I'm not

So an all Alloy foil with Stainless bolts needs a touch of Tef Gel every cuppla three weeks and everything is fine. Sounds like there is lot of hullabaloo to try and reinvent that wheel.
This thread is about entry level foils for beginners. Not a Carbon fibre workshop.

F a beginner doesn't want to fork out $2850 for a Carbon production foil then they have the choice to pay $1450 for an Alloy foil.
Shovel shaped front winged foils are slow and lift very early, and are old tech. Higher aspect modern tech wings lift pretty early too. And go way faster when you want.
Put Carbon fibres in direct contact with Aluminium alloys and you get bad corrosion.
Put stainless bolts in direct contact with Aluminium then you need the Tef Gel.
For free riding on foils, weight is not a real issue. Stiffness is an issue.
Alloy foil masts with 3 bolting internal sleeves are stiffer than the 2 sleeve versions.
Alloy foils using welded sections will crack along the edge of parent metal closest to weld where the heat weakens it.
Starting with a long board helps control the beginners nose dives.
Anything else that I have missed that pertains to choosing an entry level foil for beginners, please feel free to add.

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Greenarrowz said..
Im surprised one hasnt been made with a 3D printer yet.

would make an interesting bar stool, or cup holder !

Hope this works it's a copy from a kite forum post

good that they only tested mainly French foils.Where is KFA, Levitaz..?I wonder how a Spotz2 has only a 3 on gybes/tacks compared to a Liquid force with a 4?? That already makes the whole review questionable..I can't even foil tack or gybe the liquid force foil and can do it with my eyes closed on a KFA or Spotz.

Rather than having a
Make sure the brand you sell is there to be tested.
At any rate the test compares the foils that are tested. So can be used as such.
I just like how the Zeeko Alloy is shown to be great value for your performance Buck.

Everybody i know that went straight to a high performance, well designed/ built carbon foil (you can get them 2nd hand for a similar price as new alloy foils) progresses faster, easier and has most importantly a lot more fun. Sorry mate but people who review a Spotz to be harder to gybe than a LF are off and in my opinion not very creditable.Also its pretty obvious that whoever pays the advertising is getting the browny points here.