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shodan said..
My advice is to ride with both straps as this helps alot with getting the board in position but have them very loose as I've almost sprianed an ankle when falling.

You don't need to edge much but the biggest thing l learned was that some edge is needed to keep the kite pulling.

Hi shodan

I'm a few sessions in now with my sroka foil and last sesh was getting a few 80m runs. I started with with both straps for the same reason as you - it was easier the position the board for starts. I then revisited the Sroka starting foiling instructional vid. Bruno Sroka advises to use the front strap only as far forward as it will go and pretty loose. Back foot with no strap and positioned directly over the mast. This is to position your center of gravity forward to help keep the board down. I have had a little experience already waterstarting with a strapless directional so it was fairly easy eventually. It did help with my last sesh.

Keeping the kite pulling is my current biggest fail (one of them at least). Getting the right upwind angle is tricky - a friend of my who is a really good foiler said rotating the hips upwind is the way to get the right upwind angle. I haven't tried it yet but hopefully there's some good conditions this week to give it a crack.

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snalberski said..

shodan said..
My advice is to ride with both straps as this helps alot with getting the board in position but have them very loose as I've almost sprianed an ankle when falling.

You don't need to edge much but the biggest thing l learned was that some edge is needed to keep the kite pulling.

Hi shodan

I'm a few sessions in now with my sroka foil and last sesh was getting a few 80m runs. I started with with both straps for the same reason as you - it was easier the position the board for starts. I then revisited the Sroka starting foiling instructional vid. Bruno Sroka advises to use the front strap only as far forward as it will go and pretty loose. Back foot with no strap and positioned directly over the mast. This is to position your center of gravity forward to help keep the board down. I have had a little experience already waterstarting with a strapless directional so it was fairly easy eventually. It did help with my last sesh.

Keeping the kite pulling is my current biggest fail (one of them at least). Getting the right upwind angle is tricky - a friend of my who is a really good foiler said rotating the hips upwind is the way to get the right upwind angle. I haven't tried it yet but hopefully there's some good conditions this week to give it a crack.

Watched the same Sroka vid and went out first time with the front strap only and found it almost impossible to get into position to waterstart so put the rear on. Was up on the board today and got some short stable rides on the foil but was still super pogoing at times. I was thinking about moving the back strap as far back as possible and using it to get the board into position then taking the foot out and putting it over the mast for the start and seeing if that helps with getting the weight distribution right. Should have good wind tomorrow so we'll see how that goes.

Hey Leigh
I see you have your kit up for sale already. What happened?

I was going to PM you Leigh as well, but kkiter's beat me to the punch. Hope you didn't do any damage to the hip?

Hey guys thanks for your concern.
We had a family meeting in regards the crashes whilst learning.My mind says do it but the body says if you wreck your new hip and end up back in hospital.Plus I am due for a full knee replacement in March or April.
So that's the story.I can kite now carefully.Which is great.I was just getting that amped on foiling.
So the foil kit has not been used.
Will try later next year when my knee op has had time to repair.
Just worn out but hey they can rebuild this body.
Will be enjoying your posts with envy.
Kind regards Leigh

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LeighMajor said..
Hey guys thanks for your concern.
We had a family meeting in regards the crashes whilst learning.My mind says do it but the body says if you wreck your new hip and end up back in hospital.Plus I am due for a full knee replacement in March or April.
So that's the story.I can kite now carefully.Which is great.I was just getting that amped on foiling.
So the foil kit has not been used.
Will try later next year when my knee op has had time to repair.
Just worn out but hey they can rebuild this body.
Will be enjoying your posts with envy.
Kind regards Leigh

I'm always impressed with the quantity and diversity of gear listed by yourself in the buy and sell section.

Yes thanks we have tried and tested a large variety of gear.My wife at times wonders why but hey variety is the spice of life.
Being an instructor you need gear in case the student decides they want to buy something.
That's my excuse anyways just to keep the peace.Seems to work.Absolutely love the diversity of Quality gear.

Hi Leigh,

Sorry to hear it, I know just how stoked you were to start foiling.

Would it be worth holding your foil until you're ready to try? I would guess prices are likely to go up unless the dollar starts climbing again, even Aussie brands like KFA are sourcing significant amounts of their product/materials overseas.

For what it's worth my father in law had both knees done and they're awesome now, stronger than ever, although they make some funny noises.

The rate my progression will go, you'll probably catch up really quick next year anyway.

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shodan said..

snalberski said..

shodan said..
My advice is to ride with both straps as this helps alot with getting the board in position but have them very loose as I've almost sprianed an ankle when falling.

You don't need to edge much but the biggest thing l learned was that some edge is needed to keep the kite pulling.

Hi shodan

I'm a few sessions in now with my sroka foil and last sesh was getting a few 80m runs. I started with with both straps for the same reason as you - it was easier the position the board for starts. I then revisited the Sroka starting foiling instructional vid. Bruno Sroka advises to use the front strap only as far forward as it will go and pretty loose. Back foot with no strap and positioned directly over the mast. This is to position your center of gravity forward to help keep the board down. I have had a little experience already waterstarting with a strapless directional so it was fairly easy eventually. It did help with my last sesh.

Keeping the kite pulling is my current biggest fail (one of them at least). Getting the right upwind angle is tricky - a friend of my who is a really good foiler said rotating the hips upwind is the way to get the right upwind angle. I haven't tried it yet but hopefully there's some good conditions this week to give it a crack.

Watched the same Sroka vid and went out first time with the front strap only and found it almost impossible to get into position to waterstart so put the rear on. Was up on the board today and got some short stable rides on the foil but was still super pogoing at times. I was thinking about moving the back strap as far back as possible and using it to get the board into position then taking the foot out and putting it over the mast for the start and seeing if that helps with getting the weight distribution right. Should have good wind tomorrow so we'll see how that goes.

With the Sroka, you could leave the back footstrap on as its far enough back past the mast foot that it probably wouldn't get in the way. I did read about someone else using the back footstrap to help get the board into position and then moving his foot out again just before waterstarting.

I see a lot if discussion about top speeds.... What does that matter for free riders who aren't racing?

I think you guys are on the right track. Took me 10 hours to get confident up wind. Downwind is harder. In hindsight, I think either front or both straps would be fine as long as you don't try and foil too quickly. If you can keep your weight forward and ride with the board in the water you can then start to make small rides up on the foil as you shift your weight back. It's pretty sensitive - you don't need to make big movements but small rides will lead to longer ones. Totally worthwhile once you've got the hang of it. You need some speed tho, the LF will foil pretty easily but for example, the Levitaz I rode recently needed about 12 knots to gain stability. Don't go too slow.

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jamesperth said..
I think you guys are on the right track. Took me 10 hours to get confident up wind. Downwind is harder. In hindsight, I think either front or both straps would be fine as long as you don't try and foil too quickly. If you can keep your weight forward and ride with the board in the water you can then start to make small rides up on the foil as you shift your weight back. It's pretty sensitive - you don't need to make big movements but small rides will lead to longer ones. Totally worthwhile once you've got the hang of it. You need some speed tho, the LF will foil pretty easily but for example, the Levitaz I rode recently needed about 12 knots to gain stability. Don't go too slow.

I think this is why Bruno Sroka says (in his how to video) not to try and use foot pressure to fly but to just accelerate the board and it'll start to fly as you pick up speed.

Probably with skill and experience you could use foot pressure to get on the foil at low speeds but I'm guessing this would have the average beginner kangarooing/porpoising along in frustration for a lot longer.

Hi Dave,yes mate still stoked about the whole foil thing.In two minds about selling the foil kit.
As you said probs cost more next year.Will consider hanging on to it.
Won't be able to help myself then haha.
Regards your father in law that's great news.
Same as my hip feels stronger than ever with no pain.As for the Knee I can't wear it out anymore.So may still have a crack at foiling yet if we get some moderate seabreezes.
Wife will probs crack a valve or two.
Regards foiling lots of chat about keeping the board down whilst starting.Balancing your weight on front foot to slightly using back foot pressure.I not giving up yet.Will compare the carnage when I have a crack.

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LeighMajor said..
Hi Dave,yes mate still stoked about the whole foil thing.In two minds about selling the foil kit.
As you said probs cost more next year.Will consider hanging on to it.
Won't be able to help myself then haha.
Regards your father in law that's great news.
Same as my hip feels stronger than ever with no pain.As for the Knee I can't wear it out anymore.So may still have a crack at foiling yet if we get some moderate seabreezes.
Wife will probs crack a valve or two.
Regards foiling lots of chat about keeping the board down whilst starting.Balancing your weight on front foot to slightly using back foot pressure.I not giving up yet.Will compare the carnage when I have a crack.

Not much risk of risk an injury if you go strapless. I've been doing it since I started and I am not even considering to put them on. Even my latest board I built it without inserts.

Only thing is those big TMV boards are not designed for strapless as they are way too buoyant. If you can get your hand on an Alaïa, skim board or even build a 30mm board like I did, you'll be enjoying foiling in no time without the fear of hurting yourself.

I tried with just the front straps at the beginning and apart from the fact that you can hold onto it when water starting, I don't see any point (considering you are an instructor I assume you already have good general skills). I wish I had that skinny board at the time. It would have made it so much easier.

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Livit said..

LeighMajor said..
Hi Dave,yes mate still stoked about the whole foil thing.In two minds about selling the foil kit.
As you said probs cost more next year.Will consider hanging on to it.
Won't be able to help myself then haha.
Regards your father in law that's great news.
Same as my hip feels stronger than ever with no pain.As for the Knee I can't wear it out anymore.So may still have a crack at foiling yet if we get some moderate seabreezes.
Wife will probs crack a valve or two.
Regards foiling lots of chat about keeping the board down whilst starting.Balancing your weight on front foot to slightly using back foot pressure.I not giving up yet.Will compare the carnage when I have a crack.

Not much risk of risk an injury if you go strapless. I've been doing it since I started and I am not even considering to put them on. Even my latest board I built it without inserts.

Only thing is those big TMV boards are not designed for strapless as they are way too buoyant. If you can get your hand on an Alaïa, skim board or even build a 30mm board like I did, you'll be enjoying foiling in no time without the fear of hurting yourself.

I tried with just the front straps at the beginning and apart from the fact that you can hold onto it when water starting, I don't see any point (considering you are an instructor I assume you already have good general skills). I wish I had that skinny board at the time. It would have made it so much easier.

I purchased the LF fishfoil with a full mast and half mast. I only use a very loose front strap and that is purely to assist in launching.

Now I kite on Botany Bay all the time and the conditions are choppy and I always end up with some level of knee pain on a normal TT or surfboard.
I used the half mast to reduce the size of porpoising and that reduced the number of crashes. I spent more time on the board, with less pain from crashes and less pain from chop. And I am now fine on a full mast which has reduced the impact from chop even more.

The LF is slow. But it is a heap of fun with reduced misery from high speed crashes.

Hey Livit,strapless or just front strap pretty loose.Board size and volume important points.I naturally thought slightly bigger more volume easier.Keen on the smaller less volume.I have a Shinnster.Had read in earlier posts.
I do like how's Vascoe is set up on the Mhl custom Traveller with 750mm-980mm masts for shallower foiling.Being a goofy footer surfer I find it a bit hard to switch feet.Ride Toeside more.
Hey Tony,sounds like you are all over it down there.That Skimfish probs make a good foil board also.I was looking at putting boxes in one of my kitesurfboards and ordering a shorter mast of KFA with same M3 foil.

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bigtone667 said..

Livit said..

LeighMajor said..
Hi Dave,yes mate still stoked about the whole foil thing.In two minds about selling the foil kit.
As you said probs cost more next year.Will consider hanging on to it.
Won't be able to help myself then haha.
Regards your father in law that's great news.
Same as my hip feels stronger than ever with no pain.As for the Knee I can't wear it out anymore.So may still have a crack at foiling yet if we get some moderate seabreezes.
Wife will probs crack a valve or two.
Regards foiling lots of chat about keeping the board down whilst starting.Balancing your weight on front foot to slightly using back foot pressure.I not giving up yet.Will compare the carnage when I have a crack.

Not much risk of risk an injury if you go strapless. I've been doing it since I started and I am not even considering to put them on. Even my latest board I built it without inserts.

Only thing is those big TMV boards are not designed for strapless as they are way too buoyant. If you can get your hand on an Alaïa, skim board or even build a 30mm board like I did, you'll be enjoying foiling in no time without the fear of hurting yourself.

I tried with just the front straps at the beginning and apart from the fact that you can hold onto it when water starting, I don't see any point (considering you are an instructor I assume you already have good general skills). I wish I had that skinny board at the time. It would have made it so much easier.

I purchased the LF fishfoil with a full mast and half mast. I only use a very loose front strap and that is purely to assist in launching.

Now I kite on Botany Bay all the time and the conditions are choppy and I always end up with some level of knee pain on a normal TT or surfboard.
I used the half mast to reduce the size of porpoising and that reduced the number of crashes. I spent more time on the board, with less pain from crashes and less pain from chop. And I am now fine on a full mast which has reduced the impact from chop even more.

The LF is slow. But it is a heap of fun with reduced misery from high speed crashes.

You not feeling like you're needing more speed?

I like the price of that LF option, and have zero interest in racing, just want to cruise in light wind...

Select to expand quote

Livit said..

LeighMajor said..
Hi Dave,yes mate still stoked about the whole foil thing.In two minds about selling the foil kit.
As you said probs cost more next year.Will consider hanging on to it.
Won't be able to help myself then haha.
Regards your father in law that's great news.
Same as my hip feels stronger than ever with no pain.As for the Knee I can't wear it out anymore.So may still have a crack at foiling yet if we get some moderate seabreezes.
Wife will probs crack a valve or two.
Regards foiling lots of chat about keeping the board down whilst starting.Balancing your weight on front foot to slightly using back foot pressure.I not giving up yet.Will compare the carnage when I have a crack.

Not much risk of risk an injury if you go strapless. I've been doing it since I started and I am not even considering to put them on. Even my latest board I built it without inserts.

Only thing is those big TMV boards are not designed for strapless as they are way too buoyant. If you can get your hand on an Alaïa, skim board or even build a 30mm board like I did, you'll be enjoying foiling in no time without the fear of hurting yourself.

I tried with just the front straps at the beginning and apart from the fact that you can hold onto it when water starting, I don't see any point (considering you are an instructor I assume you already have good general skills). I wish I had that skinny board at the time. It would have made it so much easier.

I'd have thought the advantage of the more floaty board is being able to waterstart easier in light winds when learning. If you are as good as Greg Dexler then I'm sure you can get going in a gnatts fart of wind with a shinnster but I'd reckon when learning that the buoyancy would help a bit.

Hey Breezy,deffinately not saying that I am as good as the legend you mentioned.I am just an intermediate kiter wanting to get as much advice and tips under my belt to assist me through the learning curve without ending up back in hospital.Have been practicing on the Shinnster and directionals and may change one of my epoxy boards into a foil with the addition of the same box arrangement needed for my KFA gear.Then will order a shorter mast.

weeby I'm learning strapless and I think Livit's point is that a floaty board is harder to get your feet up to for the waterstart, you have to get them higher out of the water, I've had no worries with the front foot but the back foot takes a bit of a crunch sometimes to get it high enough. Specially if you're older, less flexible, abs not in the greatest form.. once you're up over the board you'd be correct.

Kami - Foilfish is a pretty ordinary option - however LF have 2 new models. Rocket Fish looks heaps better, and I think will be cheaper too. Happy Foil a step up again I believe around $2400 AUD. Plus they have a higher aspect carbon you can upgrade to. They're lengthened the fuse on all of them for more pitch stability.

That's a great clip from Liquid Force - glad to see they are improving their product offering, and still keeping prices reasonable. Ive still got my LF Fish, but Id be keen to try the Rocket & Happy Foil if given the chance. I reckon they'll sell a few of those - look out for more foilers on the water !

After a reading a bunch more I've gone and decided if I'm going to get a foil, itll be a TKF or Sroka...

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Kamikuza said..

bigtone667 said..

Livit said..

LeighMajor said..
Hi Dave,yes mate still stoked about the whole foil thing.In two minds about selling the foil kit.
As you said probs cost more next year.Will consider hanging on to it.
Won't be able to help myself then haha.
Regards your father in law that's great news.
Same as my hip feels stronger than ever with no pain.As for the Knee I can't wear it out anymore.So may still have a crack at foiling yet if we get some moderate seabreezes.
Wife will probs crack a valve or two.
Regards foiling lots of chat about keeping the board down whilst starting.Balancing your weight on front foot to slightly using back foot pressure.I not giving up yet.Will compare the carnage when I have a crack.

Not much risk of risk an injury if you go strapless. I've been doing it since I started and I am not even considering to put them on. Even my latest board I built it without inserts.

Only thing is those big TMV boards are not designed for strapless as they are way too buoyant. If you can get your hand on an Alaïa, skim board or even build a 30mm board like I did, you'll be enjoying foiling in no time without the fear of hurting yourself.

I tried with just the front straps at the beginning and apart from the fact that you can hold onto it when water starting, I don't see any point (considering you are an instructor I assume you already have good general skills). I wish I had that skinny board at the time. It would have made it so much easier.

I purchased the LF fishfoil with a full mast and half mast. I only use a very loose front strap and that is purely to assist in launching.

Now I kite on Botany Bay all the time and the conditions are choppy and I always end up with some level of knee pain on a normal TT or surfboard.
I used the half mast to reduce the size of porpoising and that reduced the number of crashes. I spent more time on the board, with less pain from crashes and less pain from chop. And I am now fine on a full mast which has reduced the impact from chop even more.

The LF is slow. But it is a heap of fun with reduced misery from high speed crashes.

You not feeling like you're needing more speed?

I like the price of that LF option, and have zero interest in racing, just want to cruise in light wind...

I man enough to admit that the speed and immediate acceleration scare the crap out of me .........

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kiteboy dave said..
weeby I'm learning strapless and I think Livit's point is that a floaty board is harder to get your feet up to for the waterstart, you have to get them higher out of the water, I've had no worries with the front foot but the back foot takes a bit of a crunch sometimes to get it high enough. Specially if you're older, less flexible, abs not in the greatest form.. once you're up over the board you'd be correct.

Ahhhhh! I see your point now. Makes sense. I have a shinnster and waterstarting is simple because its easy to sink the edge. Sounds like its a bit of a trade off between easier starting and easier dealing with lulls/recovering from board touchdowns. I suspect there isn't a 'better' option for board volume - just one more suited to how a particular person enjoys riding.

Disclaimer: I'm only talking third party theory at the moment as my Moses foil has just turned up and I have a week off next week to start playing with it.

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bigtone667 said..

Kamikuza said..

bigtone667 said..

Livit said..

LeighMajor said..
Hi Dave,yes mate still stoked about the whole foil thing.In two minds about selling the foil kit.
As you said probs cost more next year.Will consider hanging on to it.
Won't be able to help myself then haha.
Regards your father in law that's great news.
Same as my hip feels stronger than ever with no pain.As for the Knee I can't wear it out anymore.So may still have a crack at foiling yet if we get some moderate seabreezes.
Wife will probs crack a valve or two.
Regards foiling lots of chat about keeping the board down whilst starting.Balancing your weight on front foot to slightly using back foot pressure.I not giving up yet.Will compare the carnage when I have a crack.

Not much risk of risk an injury if you go strapless. I've been doing it since I started and I am not even considering to put them on. Even my latest board I built it without inserts.

Only thing is those big TMV boards are not designed for strapless as they are way too buoyant. If you can get your hand on an Alaïa, skim board or even build a 30mm board like I did, you'll be enjoying foiling in no time without the fear of hurting yourself.

I tried with just the front straps at the beginning and apart from the fact that you can hold onto it when water starting, I don't see any point (considering you are an instructor I assume you already have good general skills). I wish I had that skinny board at the time. It would have made it so much easier.

I purchased the LF fishfoil with a full mast and half mast. I only use a very loose front strap and that is purely to assist in launching.

Now I kite on Botany Bay all the time and the conditions are choppy and I always end up with some level of knee pain on a normal TT or surfboard.
I used the half mast to reduce the size of porpoising and that reduced the number of crashes. I spent more time on the board, with less pain from crashes and less pain from chop. And I am now fine on a full mast which has reduced the impact from chop even more.

The LF is slow. But it is a heap of fun with reduced misery from high speed crashes.

You not feeling like you're needing more speed?

I like the price of that LF option, and have zero interest in racing, just want to cruise in light wind...

I man enough to admit that the speed and immediate acceleration scare the crap out of me .........

As a fellow Clydesdale, aren't you used to going about twice as fast as everyone else just to maintain a plane?

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Kamikuza said...

As a fellow Clydesdale, aren't you used to going about twice as fast as everyone else just to maintain a plane?

Whats the difference between the two mast/back foot positions? Mast directly under back foot vs mast ahead of back foot?

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Kamikuza said..
Whats the difference between the two mast/back foot positions? Mast directly under back foot vs mast ahead of back foot?

Just depends how the foil is balanced. It is a design thing.

If you look at the sword 1 and sword 2, you will notice that the front wing is positioned further from the mast on the first one. On the first version I think the plate was positioned further back if that makes sense?

In short, the foil manufacturer will tell you where to position your foil on the board.

My Zeeko 2015 sits further back than my 2014....

North have 2 tuttle boxes on their board as their foil has to sit a lot further back than any other foil on the market. But they still offer you the possibility to fit another product using Tuttle connection (like Spotz, Alpine, TKF).

Important to know if you decide to build your own board/modify an existing one. Safer bet is to buy the whole kit from the manufacturer.

Select to expand quote

bigtone667 said..

Kamikuza said..

bigtone667 said..

Livit said..

LeighMajor said..
Hi Dave,yes mate still stoked about the whole foil thing.In two minds about selling the foil kit.
As you said probs cost more next year.Will consider hanging on to it.
Won't be able to help myself then haha.
Regards your father in law that's great news.
Same as my hip feels stronger than ever with no pain.As for the Knee I can't wear it out anymore.So may still have a crack at foiling yet if we get some moderate seabreezes.
Wife will probs crack a valve or two.
Regards foiling lots of chat about keeping the board down whilst starting.Balancing your weight on front foot to slightly using back foot pressure.I not giving up yet.Will compare the carnage when I have a crack.

Not much risk of risk an injury if you go strapless. I've been doing it since I started and I am not even considering to put them on. Even my latest board I built it without inserts.

Only thing is those big TMV boards are not designed for strapless as they are way too buoyant. If you can get your hand on an Alaïa, skim board or even build a 30mm board like I did, you'll be enjoying foiling in no time without the fear of hurting yourself.

I tried with just the front straps at the beginning and apart from the fact that you can hold onto it when water starting, I don't see any point (considering you are an instructor I assume you already have good general skills). I wish I had that skinny board at the time. It would have made it so much easier.

I purchased the LF fishfoil with a full mast and half mast. I only use a very loose front strap and that is purely to assist in launching.

Now I kite on Botany Bay all the time and the conditions are choppy and I always end up with some level of knee pain on a normal TT or surfboard.
I used the half mast to reduce the size of porpoising and that reduced the number of crashes. I spent more time on the board, with less pain from crashes and less pain from chop. And I am now fine on a full mast which has reduced the impact from chop even more.

The LF is slow. But it is a heap of fun with reduced misery from high speed crashes.

You not feeling like you're needing more speed?

I like the price of that LF option, and have zero interest in racing, just want to cruise in light wind...

I man enough to admit that the speed and immediate acceleration scare the crap out of me .........

Agreed, even the LF foil which is considered "slow" compared to race/high aspect models scares you when you're really powered. Best to have a slow foil at the start. I'm a year in and it still can scare me at times. I'll be getting the new Happy Foil soon which is high aspect, my mate clocked 32 mph in moderate winds on it - I'm already scared

Anyone ridden the LF and the Manta? Priced about the same...

Is is one style of mounting position easier than the other?