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SydPete said..
More chance the foil will try and kill you when you stack riding with out straps. With your front foot in a strap it normal directs it down when you fall off the front.

Not sure where you are getting that idea from. Have you even tried?

There is always a risk, however when you are learning I think that strapless is safer for both your ankles and knees. Most feedback from learners with straps are the painful stacks. I have stacked a lot and still do, never felt pain though.... Never got chased by my own board but that might be just luck.
Again, personal preferences and both have pros and cons.

I'm learning without straps. I'm up and riding pretty good so far. The injury I hear of most is twisted ankles and knees while learning with straps, one or both. When things go wrong for me the board can do what ever it wants and I just keep going straight without any problem's. The foil has way more leverage then your ankles can stop, it's going to do what ever it wants, and when your strapped on your feet are going with it.

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SydPete said..
More chance the foil will try and kill you when you stack riding with out straps. With your front foot in a strap it normal directs it down when you fall off the front.

Straps or no straps, the foil is out to get you..... especially when you first start and you are still leaning back likes it's a twin tip.
The first day of trying convinced me that a helmet was a very worthwhile investment. And then second day, and the third day etc etc

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Livit said..

SydPete said..
More chance the foil will try and kill you when you stack riding with out straps. With your front foot in a strap it normal directs it down when you fall off the front.

Not sure where you are getting that idea from. Have you even tried?

yer pretty sure sydpete is out foiling most weekends and competed in the state titles on a foil

pretty sure he was straps from the get go as well

It seems like a hot topic, I know there's some threads on the big forum with guys swearing black and blue one way or the other.

FWIW I'd pretty much settled on a front foot hook alone to start with. With a wettie, helmet, impact vest, in theory I'd rather the foil attack me than twist my ankles/knees.

These things ought to give that little bit of control while water starting, and help locate front foot, without holding in too much.

French mag has a roundup - they only covered half the brands, but interesting anyway and the first I've come across

The clear winner - if you include price - was Zeeko with their alloy/fibreglass foil at 800 Euro (foil only)

Full results - wish they had Alpinefoil and Sroka in the test!

(scores helpfully tabled by Zeeko who are of course stoked about it - hence the red )





btw gotta love a test where they actually dare to give scores. Not many mags willing to have a solid opinion!

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kiteboy dave said..
Full results - wish they had Alpinefoil and Sroka in the test!

(scores helpfully tabled by Zeeko who are of course stoked about it - hence the red )





btw gotta love a test where they actually dare to give scores. Not many mags willing to have a solid opinion!

I reckon the KFA mk3 would have done well

Just got the new Zeeko, haven't tried yet as I haven't finished my new board but the finish of this new foil is a lot better than the previous version. Gonna get the Alloy version in August as well so if someone want to have a go, I usually ride around Melville.

I would guess they've tested from the perspective of beginner/freeride rather than racer, after all race foils aren't built for 'Easyness' scores etc.

I'm only ignoring the KFA foil for the purposes of this thread because at $2700 for foil only it's way out of my 'entry level' price range.

Livit - love to hear impressions when you get the Zeeko alloy foil.

kiteboy dave said..

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I'm only ignoring the KFA foil for the purposes of this thread because at $2700 for foil only it's way out of my 'entry level' price range.

Those prices in the sheet are abit missleading. By Example

Zeeko Carbon + Board = 2498 Euro * 1.43 = $3572 AUD + 200 AUD shipping = $3772 + 15% imports + Clearnace fees (10% GST + 5% Sporting Goods Duites + $70) = $4407

Also its not clear if the prices in the sheet quoted as local EU buy price or as the export price (which would be less 20% EU VAT)

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MaxVMGRacing said..
kiteboy dave said..

I'm only ignoring the KFA foil for the purposes of this thread because at $2700 for foil only it's way out of my 'entry level' price range.

Those prices in the sheet are abit missleading. By Example

Zeeko Carbon + Board = 2498 Euro * 1.43 = $3572 AUD + 200 AUD shipping = $3772 + 15% imports + Clearnace fees (10% GST + 5% Sporting Goods Duites + $70) = $4407

Also its not clear if the prices in the sheet quoted as local EU buy price or as the export price (which would be less 20% EU VAT)

Prices to the general public always include VAT.

The example you gave would cost roughly $3600 delivered

With the selction of foils now avaible, Any time you spending over 3K on a foil package, it should have the potential to be used to win a FoilCup event.
If not racing, you wasting your money and better off buying a cheaper free-ride option speciifc to that purpose.

The likes of the North and F-ONe foil, the prices are insane, im not sure who that is targeted at, even secondand they would be insanely priced unless the orginal buyer takes a massiv hit to the wallet come time he outgows his cruising foil.

It seems 2-3 months is the going rate before the foil lads want quicker, and their cruise foil either get new fins or go up for sale. LF foil is a good example.

Foil Cup Itally coming up soon.... lets see how the list lines up at the finish line.

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kiteboy dave said..

I'm only ignoring the KFA foil for the purposes of this thread because at $2700 for foil only it's way out of my 'entry level' price range.

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Livit said..

Prices to the general public always include VAT.

The example you gave would cost roughly $3600 delivered

Its abit more than that even with the VAT removed from orginal price.
There alot of addition fees when importing that buyers need to be aware of.

Foil + board 2498 Euro - 20% VAT = 1998.4 Euro
Shipping + 150 Euro = 2148.4 Euro
Credit card fees + 2% = 2190.96 Euro
Convert to AUD * 1.46 = $3198.8016 (using mastercard rates www.mastercard.us/en-us/consumers/get-support/convert-currency.html )
Import Duties 5% + GST 10% + Clearnace fees/charges $72 = $3750

Foil Only 1849 Euro;
Foil - 20% VAT = 1479
Shipping + 100 Euro = 1579 Euro
Credit card fees + 2% = 1610 Euro
Convert to AUD * 1.46 = $2351 (using mastercard rates www.mastercard.us/en-us/consumers/get-support/convert-currency.html )
Import Duties 5% + GST 10% + Clearnace fees/charges $72 = $2776


KFA RRP inc shipping $2700 (and no doubt give them a call chat about foiling for a bit and they'll hookup a sweet price)

I take your point VMG, but purely in terms of cost, from my research so far I believe I could obtain a new Alpinefoil, LF, Slingshot, Sroka, TheKiteFoil, or Zeeko for no more than $2500 - complete with board & in my hand ready to ride. Some (not just LF) for under $2000.

Is there any news of KFA's alloy foil - is it happening? Any pics or info?

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kiteboy dave said..
I take your point VMG, but purely in terms of cost, from my research so far I believe I could obtain a new Alpinefoil, LF, Slingshot, Sroka, TheKiteFoil, or Zeeko for no more than $2500 - complete with board & in my hand ready to ride. Some (not just LF) for under $2000.

Is there any news of KFA's alloy foil - is it happening? Any pics or info?

Cheap begginers foils, start costing more... just ask the LF rider how much their wing upgrades are now costing them, or how much they expect to lose now that they wanting to sell and upgrade.

Dave, There will be a heap of realy good foils coming into the 2nd hand market soon as next seasons foils come to market, best bet is hang tight for awhile, and pick up up a good used foil, which will cost the same/maybe less than a cruise foil that you'd out grow very quickly. all the riders that bought those higher performace foils learnt on them, the first 2 or 3 hours might be factionally more difficult, but dozens on foilers in local aus learnt this past season on them without any issues.

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MaxVMGRacing said..

kiteboy dave said..
I take your point VMG, but purely in terms of cost, from my research so far I believe I could obtain a new Alpinefoil, LF, Slingshot, Sroka, TheKiteFoil, or Zeeko for no more than $2500 - complete with board & in my hand ready to ride. Some (not just LF) for under $2000.

Is there any news of KFA's alloy foil - is it happening? Any pics or info?

Cheap begginers foils, start costing more... just ask the LF rider how much their wing upgrades are now costing them, or how much they expect to lose now that they wanting to sell and upgrade.

Dave, There will be a heap of realy good foils coming into the 2nd hand market soon as next seasons foils come to market, best bet is hang tight for awhile, and pick up up a good used foil, which will cost the same/maybe less than a cruise foil that you'd out grow very quickly. all the riders that bought those higher performace foils learnt on them, the first 2 or 3 hours might be factionally more difficult, but dozens on foilers in local aus learnt this past season on them without any issues.

I think you are solely focused on racing. Mind that there are some people out there (like me) who don't give a s**t about racing, and performance for us doesn't mean going fast (I mean 30kn is fast enough for me)

The season to come there will be a heap of foils for sale ... like the Spotz who let's face it, is not the most user friendly foil.

Now, just by looking at the latest video from BRM where the guy is riding in circle on a tiny strapless board, there is so much more than just racing to do with a foil.

I would go anytime for either the Alpine or the Zeeko, both in their alloy version rather than getting a pure race performance foil. Although I still have a concern about the compatibility of carbon and aluminium due to possible galvanic corrosion. Alpine claim that they have galvanic isolators, however most of their riders use them in freshwater so I am waiting to see how does that go in salty water after a season....



Dave, if you are interested I am getting one (zeeko) in around late august and I could easily add one to the order.

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kiteboy dave said..
Is there any news of KFA's alloy foil - is it happening? Any pics or info?

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Intheloop said in another thread..

We did a lot of testing including 3 prototypes in alloy with combination of G10 wings, carbon wings and metal wings where carbon wings worked best then g10 then metal. Never any faster than 23knots tho plus the issues that arose so we decided not to produce them. Metal foils are heavy and draggy and we had issues with alloy bending on impact like running into ground.

MaxVMG I take your point about 2nd hand options coming and I'll be watching closely.

I'm not sure which way I'll end up riding - for speed or more carving/wave/fun like the cloud guy or Horue vids. I'll have to start foiling and see where it takes me. At least with some models you can interchange wings for different riding on different days.

I hear you with the LF guys but I think that's particularly a LF problem, foiling with the handbrake on.

Alpinefoil, for example, are claiming 32.9knots top speed with their aluminium foil.




Livit - at the moment I'd choose Alpinefoil or Zeeko for sure - I appreciate the offer but I'm not sure if there's anything to be gained piggybacking orders together is there? and then have to get it from WA to QLD. I was going to request that items be sent separately if possible, so that at least the board should be under the $1000 GST mark, possibly foil as well..

Also I'm waiting to see what shops gear up with, as I'll buy through a local shop if possible - already there's Kitethrills with the slingshot earlier in the thread, and another place I hear getting Sroka's in.

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Livit said..


I think you are solely focused on racing. Mind that there are some people out there (like me) who don't give a s**t about racing, and performance for us doesn't mean going fast (I mean 30kn is fast enough for me)

The season to come there will be a heap of foils for sale ... like the Spotz who let's face it, is not the most user friendly foil.

Now, just by looking at the latest video from BRM where the guy is riding in circle on a tiny strapless board, there is so much more than just racing to do with a foil.

I would go anytime for either the Alpine or the Zeeko, both in their alloy version rather than getting a pure race performance foil. Although I still have a concern about the compatibility of carbon and aluminium due to possible galvanic corrosion. Alpine claim that they have galvanic isolators, however most of their riders use them in freshwater so I am waiting to see how does that go in salty water after a season....



Dave, if you are interested I am getting one (zeeko) in around late august and I could easily add one to the order.

Much like your preference in a product is Zeeko over other options, our focus in activity has been racing over the other types of foiling activies.
And thats ok, everybody has the right to their own preference, nobody can say their stoke is better than somebody elses. And agreed performace is about control more so that sheer top speed.

But point taken there is alot more to foiling than racing. The foiling circle video is a great example The technical skill show is impressive to watch and inspiring.

One of the great things about foils is the freedom it allows you, you can go for a cruise and explore the river or the coast line.
I have found one of the most enjoyable aspect is going for a group ride along the river or coast. not every day is race day.

To avoid any further confusion, what I was looking to rasie is that foilers should be aware that they could be fustrated as Dave very well described it, could feel like they riding with the hand-break on, anything that cant cruise over 20knots will soon become fustrating. just like your dislike of race only foils, i think kiters should be wary of foils that can only be used at very low speeds or have no on the shelf addon wings. Buying based on promises of future additional releases is very risky. there are so many options now, its has very much become a buyers market :) impressive actually when you think over the difference just 18 months ago.

but my "race" KFA foil can cruise, i can porpoise like a dolphin and imagine i am riding a bucking bronco so yer i think my "race" foil is a pretty versatile foil TBH

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kiteboy dave said..
MaxVMG I take your point about 2nd hand options coming and I'll be watching closely.

I'm not sure which way I'll end up riding - for speed or more carving/wave/fun like the cloud guy or Horue vids. I'll have to start foiling and see where it takes me. At least with some models you can interchange wings for different riding on different days.

I hear you with the LF guys but I think that's particularly a LF problem, foiling with the handbrake on.

Alpinefoil, for example, are claiming 32.9knots top speed with their aluminium foil.




Livit - at the moment I'd choose Alpinefoil or Zeeko for sure - I appreciate the offer but I'm not sure if there's anything to be gained piggybacking orders together is there? and then have to get it from WA to QLD. I was going to request that items be sent separately if possible, so that at least the board should be under the $1000 GST mark, possibly foil as well..

Also I'm waiting to see what shops gear up with, as I'll buy through a local shop if possible - already there's Kitethrills with the slingshot earlier in the thread, and another place I hear getting Sroka's in.

At current exchange rates the Zeeko foil comes out to $965 Australian (665 euros without tax) shipped so it would squeeze in under the duty threshold.

Tempting... the pocket board is $780 and shipping appears to be free (!!!) which means no penalty for ordering them a few days apart

According to snalberski earlier there is no import duty (5%) or handling fee ($52) if under the $1000 threshold:

Foil: $965
Pocket Board: $780
------------------------------
Total: $1745

This does not include money changing fees. I've seen a card that has no money conversion fees and no annual fees so I'd probably get one first to save $50 bucks.
www.28degreescard.com.au/
(I am not advertising this, have to read the fine print myself, but it could be a good way to save $50 if there's no catches)

I have to say it's a pretty tempting package at that price

Here is a good look at what's in the bag and how to assemble it





Further info
issuu.com/zeeko-kites.com/docs/zeeko-foil-series-alloy-2015-us?e=15407849%2F13736578

And pocket board info
issuu.com/zeeko-kites.com/docs/zeeko-pocket-series-2015-us

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kiteboy dave said..
Tempting... the pocket board is $780 and shipping appears to be free (!!!) which means no penalty for ordering them a few days apart

According to snalberski earlier there is no import duty (5%) or handling fee ($52) if under the $1000 threshold:

Foil: $965
Pocket Board: $780
------------------------------
Total: $1745

This does not include money changing fees. I've seen a card that has no money conversion fees and no annual fees so I'd probably get one first to save $50 bucks.
www.28degreescard.com.au/
(I am not advertising this, have to read the fine print myself, but it could be a good way to save $50 if there's no catches)

I have to say it's a pretty tempting package at that price

Here is a good look at what's in the bag and how to assemble it





Further info
issuu.com/zeeko-kites.com/docs/zeeko-foil-series-alloy-2015-us?e=15407849%2F13736578

And pocket board info
issuu.com/zeeko-kites.com/docs/zeeko-pocket-series-2015-us

On items valued under $1000 there is no import duty (5%) or handling fee ($52) and no GST (10%). This means conversely that if a shipments goes over $1000Aud including shipping that you will be charged import duty (5%) handling fee ($52) GST (10%). That Zeeko looks sweet. I'd be interested to hear educated assessments about the effectiveness of the rigidity using that design. Its very simple and most times simple is best.

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MaxVMGRacing said..

To avoid any further confusion, what I was looking to rasie is that foilers should be aware that they could be fustrated as Dave very well described it, could feel like they riding with the hand-break on, anything that cant cruise over 20knots will soon become fustrating. just like your dislike of race only foils, i think kiters should be wary of foils that can only be used at very low speeds or have no on the shelf addon wings. Buying based on promises of future additional releases is very risky. there are so many options now, its has very much become a buyers market :) impressive actually when you think over the difference just 18 months ago.

Mr Zeeko said:
"I took a gps last week and made comparision between foils. With the carbon foil (freeride set up) the same day my max speed was 33knots (kite pursuit by zeeko 7m). With the alloy foil (both with pocket board), the max speed was 29.5knots. With a perfect day, you can go to around 30knots with the alloy foil.
The different between carbon and alloy foil is always 3-4knots differences. But the alloy foil is as fast as most of the carbon foils (except the ones racing and speed dedicated."

Using your "should cruise well over 20kts' as a guide Max then I'd say it sounds fast enough!

Interesting snippet from Zeeko as well..

We made a long term test (6months) and we found that the carbon wings had chemical troubles when they are set up on Alloy fuselage. We made the demo during show with carbon wings on the alloy but because we didn't received yet the fiberglass wings. But we didn't recommand to use carbon wings on the alloy foil, more we will not take any warranty of it.

I know a few are wary of the galvanic isolators used by Alpinefoil and whether they'll work in real world salt conditions...

Looks like another high aspect foil kite joining the rush

Ozone Chrono or R1
North ie Elf (?)
Flysurfer Sonic FR
F One (?)
Zeeko (?)
Pansh First or A15

it's a zeeko , pretty obvious :)

Yep I just worded it badly, I don't know model names for those ones --> (?)
I pinched it off Zeeko's team rider's facebook page.

New Sword 2 vid... signal to noise ratio's a bit off for my liking but I guess that's what appeals to the kids