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Kamikuza said..
Anyone ridden the LF and the Manta? Priced about the same...

Is is one style of mounting position easier than the other?

Your question should be more: Is there a foil that is more accessible for beginner than others?

As I said earlier, mounting position just depends how your foil is balanced.

Easiest foil out there are mainly the freeride rigs. Ketos is really good for learning but full carbon so the price is also steep.

If you go alloy I'd say:

1. Alpine
2. Zeeko
3. Manta
4. Sroka

Pretty sure Levitaz has a cheaper option as well.

Mind that both Manta and Sroka are super heavy. Looking at around 9kg for the rig.

I'd stay away from the majors as they are clearly miles away from the pioneers.

[edit] Livit beat me to the punch. I agree that the majors are years behind - LF's new offerings might be a step up though as they're 2nd generation, I'd like to see real weights released (instead of lightness claims) and also speeds (top/cruise) for each model.

Kami the current mantas, plus the new LF's (rocket/happy) plus the MHL lift (ie slingshot alien air) use a track mount with a plate. When you're starting you can move foil right to the back so that you'll never accidentally rise up on it. After those first sessions though, I don't see any benefit that having a few mounting options for footstraps can't give you.

If you're looking at that end of the market, consider the zeeko alloy too, it's a good choice. Skebstebamal on here can give you first hand opinion. Also the Cab double agent will likely be similar price, and better than LF (see the review on sb).

As for speeds, a rough guide, very rough, off top of head..
zeeko alloy - 30kts max, over 20 easy cruise
alpine alloy - 33kts max with upgrade "sport" wing, probably mid to high 20's max on XLP wing
LF Foil Fish - top 15kts, cruise 12-14kts
Sroka - think I read someone hit 27kts, cruise around 20kts
Manta - basic max 22kts, upgrade speed wing 29kts claimed top
Cab double agent & new LF's are total unknown speedwise

What's more important for light wind cruising? I would have thought that lifting speed rated higher than a fast top speed... or is cruising speed more important?

Zeeko designer is now doing thekitefoil Manta etc.

Lots of differing opinions on the boards too...

Prices... Euro is the suck.

Alpine: €1650 -- ¥225,000 -- $1880
Zeeko: €1450 -- ¥198,000 -- $1650
Manta: $1400 -- ¥168,000 -- €1250
Sroka: €1350 -- ¥184,000 -- $1550
Levitaz: €1900 foil only
MHL: $2895
LF: $1150 -- ¥138,000 -- €1010

EDIT: ohh, dodgy use of the word "package" -- that's just for the mast set. Add $500 for a board when you check out!
Looks like the Cab will be around $1800...

That's excluding shipping, and I seem to remember that a. some stores included VAT in the price but would remove it for international sales and b. Manta had free shipping... but I could be mistaken. And c. LF would require another $500 eventually for better wings.

Used Lift here is ¥260,000 in the shop, comes with a beat up v1 mast set and a brand new v2 mast set. Compare with this years Slingshot at ¥420,000 and next years at €490,000

¥100 is AU$1.15 at the moment...

Sroka is rated fairly well but that assembly system looks pretty clunky to me - 9 bolts in 2 sizes.

If money no object - KFA, Spotz, or Levitaz

If money slight object - Ketos (french rate them #1 all round) or Alpine

If money tight - go 2nd hand or buy either:

the Manta+board while it's 10% discount (the free shipping is normal). Plenty of good feedback, Renaud Barbier is all over various forums (in the windsurfing one at seabreeze discussing their new wind foil) & been designing a long time, price is great (unmatched), and you have the upgrade path of buying the $500 speed wing later if you want.
http://www.thekitefoil.com/#!online-store/cre6/!/manta-2015-hydrofoil-with-Pro-Race-board/p/50777471/category=12087149

or

Zeeko alloy & pocket board if you want a slight step up maybe, rated #1 alloy in the magazine group test of 11 foils and #3 overall, lighter than manta, and faster too - upgrade not needed. Nicolas Calliou been designing a very long time too, knows a lot about foil theory etc.

/my 2c

Just happened to have these threads open too
www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2390476&start=0
www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2390475

---------------

Anyway, had my 3rd session other day.
Put on both footstraps. Way easier with waterstarting, and even water handling too.. except i got complacent and jammed feet in too far one time, gave it a good twist on a stack. Shrugged it off and was very careful after that, lesson learned. All fine till 7pm that night when it got way sore all of a sudden, hobbling round, to the point where Ice/voltaren didn't help and & couldn't even have the weight of the sheet on the foot when I went to bed that night. Woke fine, bit tender but will be 100% in a few days. Will definitely leave straps on, just be more careful to only put feet in the minimum distance. They're loose but I'll try to make a bit looser too.

After lots of stacks water starting - smaller kite, I was sending it too aggressively and flying over board, I eventually had one good run, mostly down on water but felt the board rise a bit on foil (swell might have assisted) and I moved weight forward and kept nose down, kept going.

Lined up next run and the edge of the board caught my quick release and released kite! Never had that happen in over a decade of kiting. I'd actually tested the release before launch so I know it was assembled properly. I was only holding one end of bar. Held it for one quick fishpole loop (with me mostly airborne) before realising I had no chance of catching other end of bar and just had to let go. End of the day for me, out of time after that with the spaghetti.

Still stoked to be foiling, will be a long progression with my limited free time, but I can't wait to have it all sorted and be cruising..

Money's a factor. I think the law of ever diminishing returns comes into play heavily with foil boards.

Sroka is out -- that 2-piece fuse is a bad idea.

My problem is with the LF, Cab and Zeeko is that the dual-purpose boards will end up being very average at either job -- I'd rather have a "proper" foil board, although the Cab board is at least something completely different it what I have, and I'd like a Shinnster/Paiopo type ride.

Re. weight; we're quibbling over a kilogram or so on boards that already weigh double a TT or directional...?

Again, isn't lift-off speed vital for low wind joy?

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Kamikuza said..
Money's a factor. I think the law of ever diminishing returns comes into play heavily with foil boards.

Sroka is out -- that 2-piece fuse is a bad idea.

My problem is with the LF, Cab and Zeeko is that the dual-purpose boards will end up being very average at either job -- I'd rather have a "proper" foil board, although the Cab board is at least something completely different it what I have, and I'd like a Shinnster/Paiopo type ride.

Re. weight; we're quibbling over a kilogram or so on boards that already weigh double a TT or directional...?

Again, isn't lift-off speed vital for low wind joy?

Hey Kamikuza. I have the Sroka foil and the set up is really no different than other foil. It does have 11 skrews including the 2 mast to board mount but most others have the same amount... eg Zeeko which has 11screws - 7 for the wings and fuselage , and 4 for the mounting plate. Also if you are dismantling the foil only 2 of the screws need to be removed entirely... the rest are just loosened unlike others which need all screws removed.

Having said that I quickly learned that assembling and dismantling a foil completely every time you have a sesh sucks balls, so I keep mine fully assembled all the time and only have to attach the mast to the board, which I imagine most guys do.

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Kamikuza said..

Again, isn't lift-off speed vital for low wind joy?

No one's jumping in so I'll take a stab. From what I've read, I would have thought you should be fine to get foiling in any wind the kite flies unless maybe you're on a race or speed wing (they are different) then you might struggle to attain lift off speed in super light wind.

By the way adding to what snalberski said above, the brand new KFA (mako) and spotz (3) and possibly 1 other have all gone to a 2 piece arrangement, ie mast and wing/fuse/stabiliser. I guess it's just following what people are doing anyway, and eliminates some weight and failure points.

For Kami - I think the beauty of foiling is that here is no such thing as a proper foil board. I learnt on the LF Foil Fish, and am now on a Tenavento Carbon foil board and a higher performance set up.

In retrospect, the extra volume of the TMV would have helped me learn in the really LW days. The Fish tended to sink if there was not enough wind to stay foiling. Knowing you are a bigger dude, I'd think you'd find it easier with more, rather than less, volume.

But as soon as you can foil, which might only be a knot or two more wind, then you don't really need the extra volume.

Maybe work out what your end game is - do you want to strapless Freeride, or do you want to race and hence need a 3 strap set up.

Once you have the technique sorted you'll be able to ride anything.

For Kami - I think the beauty of foiling is that here is no such thing as a proper foil board. I learnt on the LF Foil Fish, and am now on a Temavento Carbon foil board and a higher performance set up.

In retrospect, the extra volume of the TMV (89L) would have helped me learn in the really LW days. The Fish tended to sink if there was not enough wind to stay foiling. Knowing you are a bigger dude, I'd think you'd find it easier with more, rather than less, volume.

But as soon as you can foil, which might only be a knot or two more wind, then you don't really need the extra volume. Look at what Greg from BRM is riding a a cutdown twin tip.

Maybe work out what your end game is - do you want to strapless Freeride, or do you want to race and hence need a 3 strap set up.

Also be confident that Once you have the technique sorted, which is only a matter of time, you'll be able to ride anything.

I don't think I'd buy a low aspect beginner wing again, but any of the intermediate wings will be fine. After only 3 months, I felt I wanted to go faster then what the LF offered. But for surf style riding, the low speed of the LF is actually perfect.

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jamesperth said..

I don't think I'd buy a low aspect beginner wing again, but any of the intermediate wings will be fine. After only 3 months, I felt I wanted to go faster then what the LF offered. But for surf style riding, the low speed of the LF is actually perfect.

That's what makes it such a tough decision... It's not like I can just sell the gear and upgrade, without taking a huge loss

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kiteboy dave said..
Sroka is rated fairly well but that assembly system looks pretty clunky to me - 9 bolts in 2 sizes.

If money no object - KFA, Spotz, or Levitaz

If money slight object - Ketos (french rate them #1 all round) or Alpine

If money tight - go 2nd hand or buy either:

the Manta+board while it's 10% discount (the free shipping is normal). Plenty of good feedback, Renaud Barbier is all over various forums (in the windsurfing one at seabreeze discussing their new wind foil) & been designing a long time, price is great (unmatched), and you have the upgrade path of buying the $500 speed wing later if you want.
http://www.thekitefoil.com/#!online-store/cre6/!/manta-2015-hydrofoil-with-Pro-Race-board/p/50777471/category=12087149

or

Zeeko alloy & pocket board if you want a slight step up maybe, rated #1 alloy in the magazine group test of 11 foils and #3 overall, lighter than manta, and faster too - upgrade not needed. Nicolas Calliou been designing a very long time too, knows a lot about foil theory etc.

/my 2c

Just happened to have these threads open too
www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2390476&start=0
www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2390475

---------------

Anyway, had my 3rd session other day.
Put on both footstraps. Way easier with waterstarting, and even water handling too.. except i got complacent and jammed feet in too far one time, gave it a good twist on a stack. Shrugged it off and was very careful after that, lesson learned. All fine till 7pm that night when it got way sore all of a sudden, hobbling round, to the point where Ice/voltaren didn't help and & couldn't even have the weight of the sheet on the foot when I went to bed that night. Woke fine, bit tender but will be 100% in a few days. Will definitely leave straps on, just be more careful to only put feet in the minimum distance. They're loose but I'll try to make a bit looser too.

After lots of stacks water starting - smaller kite, I was sending it too aggressively and flying over board, I eventually had one good run, mostly down on water but felt the board rise a bit on foil (swell might have assisted) and I moved weight forward and kept nose down, kept going.

Lined up next run and the edge of the board caught my quick release and released kite! Never had that happen in over a decade of kiting. I'd actually tested the release before launch so I know it was assembled properly. I was only holding one end of bar. Held it for one quick fishpole loop (with me mostly airborne) before realising I had no chance of catching other end of bar and just had to let go. End of the day for me, out of time after that with the spaghetti.

Still stoked to be foiling, will be a long progression with my limited free time, but I can't wait to have it all sorted and be cruising..

Can't find the magazine review... Which mag?

Can I just correct the Zeeko price Kami quoted.
Although he maybe right using the currency conversions.
the Zeeko Alloy foil is available through us, at $1450aud, delivered to your door.
The Zeeko Pocket Foil board $1300AUD
Carbon Foils around $3000aud depending on your options etc.
this is just a correction and not meant to be a sales pitch.

Sorry, those were US$ converted from the price in euro on the web shops, and vice versa.

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Kamikuza said..

Can't find the magazine review... Which mag?

It's about page 5 or 6 of this thread I think. But you should really start at p1 and read it all, save rehashing

Stupid me trying to google I'd seen that before too.

Look, the thing is -- is the Alpine 25% better than the Manta? cos that's the price difference. I think the LF is way overpriced for what it is, I'm worried the Manta mast is too short for our conditions, and I dont want a half-assed surfboard. Round and round in circles... Maybe I should buy that MHL at the shop...

Like us, Oz gets a raping on local dealer prices on gear too, although your mark-up is only 20%...

There were only 4 foil brands at the hydrofoil pro tour this year.Spotz, KFA, Sword and Levitaz. Those foils you can tack and gybe at speed ( lots of fun) and go over 30knots (lots of fun).You need 1m mast length. Anything else makes no sense as you touch water all the time which will throw you off balance and cause crashing.Ill post a photo of our latest board design later. Amazing how it goes upwind and if a wave hits you it just slices through..

Hey guys what's your thoughts on converting a North Nugget 5-5" or 5'2" Have a 5'5" thought get 2 x boxes properly secured into position same as say TMV board.Cost around $200.
Get a foil say short 750mm mast with some cruising wave foils.But if too shallow you still have the nugget for surfing or cruising with Quad fin set up.Just a thought atm.Still have to price it all to see whether or not to commit.
Still keen as,but the war department is a bit funny.

nugget style boards work good to mount foil to.

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LeighMajor said..
Hey guys what's your thoughts on converting a North Nugget 5-5" or 5'2" Have a 5'5" thought get 2 x boxes properly secured into position same as say TMV board.Cost around $200.
Get a foil say short 750mm mast with some cruising wave foils.But if too shallow you still have the nugget for surfing or cruising with Quad fin set up.Just a thought atm.Still have to price it all to see whether or not to commit.
Still keen as,but the war department is a bit funny.

Ha, reminds me of Eppo's shenanigans from a couple years back - turning over more gear than most shops do, in search of the miracle perfect combo. The Buddhists speak of grasping.

We all do it, and perhaps those who take it furthest do the rest of us a service in that we may see their manias in advance and change course before we are totally swallowed up by that hamster-wheel of inherently unsatisfiable consumerism.

Having said that, would you be open to an offer for your KFA foil without the board ;)

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INTHELOOP said..
There were only 4 foil brands at the hydrofoil pro tour this year.Spotz, KFA, Sword and Levitaz. Those foils you can tack and gybe at speed ( lots of fun) and go over 30knots (lots of fun).You need 1m mast length. Anything else makes no sense as you touch water all the time which will throw you off balance and cause crashing.Ill post a photo of our latest board design later. Amazing how it goes upwind and if a wave hits you it just slices through..

As usual you are talking about racing where a majority of people wanting to get into the sport don't need to go over 30kn.

Number 1 sold in France is Ketos with a 90cm. Now very popular with their wave wing. Just because the market over there is much more mature, rider profiles are very different and so is the gear.

A lot of people have to choose a shorter mast due to shallower waters. I tried a 90cm lately and found I was ventilating a lot but I think it only due to the fact that I am used to riding my 1m. After an hour I just got used to it.

Seriously I started about a year ago on a Zeeko 2014 then upgraded to the 2015 and got a couple of the Alloy models for my friends to get into it at a cheaper cost. I must say I am impressed how well the alloy goes and I could just do with one of them myself instead of my full carbon one... just because I am not interested in racing.

For most people wanted to get into the sport, I would advise just to stay clear from the 4 brands mentioned above (unless they have a freeride version). The pro tour is just not representative to the market as you can see with F one who have released their own free ride hydrofoil that is not even used by their top riders. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Maxime Nocher riding a Sword 2 and not the F one?

FYI we got the Zeeko alloy delivered for just over $1000 and I built boards for just $350. You can easily modify a board type nugget for $100 (adding between 200 and 500gr to the board) and that will get you into the sport for less than $1200.

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Livit said..

INTHELOOP said..
There were only 4 foil brands at the hydrofoil pro tour this year.Spotz, KFA, Sword and Levitaz. Those foils you can tack and gybe at speed ( lots of fun) and go over 30knots (lots of fun).You need 1m mast length. Anything else makes no sense as you touch water all the time which will throw you off balance and cause crashing.Ill post a photo of our latest board design later. Amazing how it goes upwind and if a wave hits you it just slices through..

As usual you are talking about racing where a majority of people wanting to get into the sport don't need to go over 30kn.

snip...

haha - well said. INTHELOOP continually harping on about racing brands and models is like someone saying that you can't learn to drive in a corolla - don't see any of them at the last Formula 1 weekend....

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Livit said..


Seriously I started about a year ago on a Zeeko 2014 then upgraded to the 2015 and got a couple of the Alloy models for my friends to get into it at a cheaper cost. I must say I am impressed how well the alloy goes and I could just do with one of them myself instead of my full carbon one... just because I am not interested in racing.

For most people wanted to get into the sport, I would advise just to stay clear from the 4 brands mentioned above (unless they have a freeride version). The pro tour is just not representative to the market as you can see with F one who have released their own free ride hydrofoil that is not even used by their top riders. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Maxime Nocher riding a Sword 2 and not the F one?

from my perspective . Having hit the shallow areas at melville around a dozen times my carbon foil has stayed strong . Maybe i lucked out with a mk3 kfa but it is strong as concrete .

I would consider the mk3 kfa to be more freeride than race . I have watched daddycool cruising around and jumping rather than getting into the racing aspective of it . I know i can easily cruise around on mine and it's super stable and then if i want to scare myself i can open it up .


Not sponsored opinion, i pay for all my gear and just giving my opinion .

Plus one for Dusta. My Kfa mk3 is very strong, easy to ride and I expect it could out last me. So, financially probably a good decision if can afford initial outlay. Resale is looking alright if you don't like as well.

Definitely! not sponsored opinion, just facts as I see them.

Select to expand quote

Livit said..

INTHELOOP said..
There were only 4 foil brands at the hydrofoil pro tour this year.Spotz, KFA, Sword and Levitaz. Those foils you can tack and gybe at speed ( lots of fun) and go over 30knots (lots of fun).You need 1m mast length. Anything else makes no sense as you touch water all the time which will throw you off balance and cause crashing.Ill post a photo of our latest board design later. Amazing how it goes upwind and if a wave hits you it just slices through..

As usual you are talking about racing where a majority of people wanting to get into the sport don't need to go over 30kn.

Number 1 sold in France is Ketos with a 90cm. Now very popular with their wave wing. Just because the market over there is much more mature, rider profiles are very different and so is the gear.

A lot of people have to choose a shorter mast due to shallower waters. I tried a 90cm lately and found I was ventilating a lot but I think it only due to the fact that I am used to riding my 1m. After an hour I just got used to it.

Seriously I started about a year ago on a Zeeko 2014 then upgraded to the 2015 and got a couple of the Alloy models for my friends to get into it at a cheaper cost. I must say I am impressed how well the alloy goes and I could just do with one of them myself instead of my full carbon one... just because I am not interested in racing.

For most people wanted to get into the sport, I would advise just to stay clear from the 4 brands mentioned above (unless they have a freeride version). The pro tour is just not representative to the market as you can see with F one who have released their own free ride hydrofoil that is not even used by their top riders. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Maxime Nocher riding a Sword 2 and not the F one?

FYI we got the Zeeko alloy delivered for just over $1000 and I built boards for just $350. You can easily modify a board type nugget for $100 (adding between 200 and 500gr to the board) and that will get you into the sport for less than $1200.

Regarding the mast lengths: is that just the mast, or mounted board to fuselage length?

We designed the Mk3 to be the a very stable foil to ride and to be bullet proof (Aussie Made) so it doesnt break which has been a big problem with French made foils in the last 2 years. The designs are good but lots of foils failing due to engineering and construction issues. The Mk3 is a full autoclaved, monocoque solid piece of carbon. Havent seen another foil build like that. Coming in a bit heavier (3.4kg) than most foils but it has got the stiffest mast on the market. This helps especially big guys because doesnt twist and bend underneath you keeping it stable.Front wing is 56cm M-Shape semi-high aspect. The front wing and winglets are designed to not break water surface. The long fuselage increases stability. This foil is super easy to tack and gybe!There is about 20x Mk3 flying around the country. Go and try one you will love it!Craig Rawson just won the Masters division at Nationals on KFA Mk3 against dudes on french foils, cant be that slow ;)
ok 4pm foiling time, laterz lads yewwwww

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oldbones said..
Plus one for Dusta. My Kfa mk3 is very strong, easy to ride and I expect it could out last me. So, financially probably a good decision if can afford initial outlay. Resale is looking alright if you don't like as well.

Definitely! not sponsored opinion, just facts as I see them.

Congrats on Winning the Nationals you old Bugga!

Yes well said Jo.Just a thought.Had some strange ones recently getting over a mother of a virus.Should be totally satisfied with my gear and just bloody have a crack at foiling.And no I have removed my foil gear from sale.
Feeling heaps better.Virus has finally left the building.Can resume my passion and start learning to foil.

^^^ All good. I'm a fan of good gear, well chosen for rider and conditions, but I'm also aware that any of us who have the chance to hit the water even once a week on basic old gear are still very fortunate in the bigger scheme of this crazy world.

My current light wind rig is a 13m 2011 Edge I got for $500 complete and a V2 Sector 52 I got also for $500. Perfect for 12-18 knots (although relaunch is very sketchy at the low end), but I'm also getting the bug for covering big distances in light wind and considering taking the plunge into foiling.

So many questions. Here are my first two:

KFA website says they have a budget foil, but no real info. But a lot of their site seems a bit out of date (not to mention clunky and 2005-looking graphics). Anyone know anything about it? www.kitefoil.com.au/shop/#!/KFA-T1/p/43101930/category=0

I currently ride an Axis New Wave strapless and would probably bolt a foil to this. Thoughts on if/what reinforcement to the board (or load spreading insert between foil plate and board) would be necessary? (80kg)

waiting on answers to those questions too. Was going to convert an old fish while I built a small Paipo specific for the foil. I am in the process of acquiring a Jim Stringfellow foil from a friend who has upgraded to more racing specific gear. The more I read and vids I watch the more I am inclined to learn strapless.