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Sterlings said..
www.facebook.com/groups/7041592283/

Scroll down the above facebook page to see letter from Dorian to World Sailing Council

Direct link because Facebook is an absolute ****-show if you wan to find something. Letter says it all

www.sail-world.com/news/217439/Olympic-champion-unhappy-with-RS-X-recommendation?fbclid=IwAR1PzxzJwr4knKuorfF_vW-o8Q8ui1kj9RJnibgxL_dHkkbUWXkWllNk1Mo

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Sterlings said..
www.facebook.com/groups/7041592283/

Scroll down the above facebook page to see letter from Dorian to World Sailing Council

Interesting letter, not sure I agree with all of it. I can't see how quality issues and availabilty of spares with RSX are going to be resolved by changing the class. Spare pasts for starboard are far far far more difficult to obtain than NP, if not impossible. Getting a mast track or gasket for a Phantom is next to impossible, and its a board that has been around for 10 years. I feel kind of annoyed that they dare to dream of Olympics when they can't even supply basic service for the existing customers. Knocking RSXquality is a bit rich as well, go to the Raceboard windsurfing page on FB and have a look at the phantom issues . Reality is Cobra make them all.

Starboard are having difficulty supplying foils and foil sails for existing demand, imagine if it became Olympic. Probably ok for Dorian, he most likely has direct access to the latest equipment but the average punter has to wait 6 months at least atm, I could fore see a fleet of well connected sailors having the latest equipment and all the rest left to buy their secondhand left overs.

Not sure I agree with his analysis of the numbers, or at least his rationale. Arguing RSX is to difficult to transition from junior to senior may be valid but I can't see how foils will make that easier. Not that I'm a foiler but it appears that mistakes on foils are punished much harder than on other classes. For example a less than perfect gybe could result in losing 50 or more metres in a race. Seems more elitist than RSX not less.

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Ben1973 said..The LT is never going to be doing 20knots.

Chris249 said..

Rob11 said..

windsufering said..
Hopefully the council will come to their senses and vote for the Windsurfer Lt

When you convince Froome to race on this:


and Usain Bolt to run 100m on sand track
Ill vote for Windsurfer Lt (not that RSX is much more exciting but still...)

Actually, the LT is actually probably closer in performance to the fastest windsurfer than Froome's bike is to the fastest bicycles. Froome's bike is about half the speed, or a bit less, of the fastest bicycle. The Olympic track bikes are slower still.

Wrong.
the Olympic track bikes are the the most aero bikes out there that conform to UCI regs and there's no frame out there with half the drag of his road dogma. I'm assuming you mean drag and not speed. If your talking about speed there no bike out there that's 50% faster.
Even going from the most aero bike setup to and standard road set up your probably only going to gain a couple of minutes over 40km working on 40km taking your everyday pro about 45-50mins

The LT is never going to be doing 20knots.

That is incorrect. The sailor below was recorded by his GPS on the Swan River at around 24.2 knots. You will see in one video the rescue boat has trouble keeping up.

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cammd said..

Sterlings said..
www.facebook.com/groups/7041592283/

Scroll down the above facebook page to see letter from Dorian to World Sailing Council

Interesting letter, not sure I agree with all of it. I can't see how quality issues and availabilty of spares with RSX are going to be resolved by changing the class. Spare pasts for starboard are far far far more difficult to obtain than NP, if not impossible. Getting a mast track or gasket for a Phantom is next to impossible, and its a board that has been around for 10 years. I feel kind of annoyed that they dare to dream of Olympics when they can't even supply basic service for the existing customers. Knocking RSXquality is a bit rich as well, go to the Raceboard windsurfing page on FB and have a look at the phantom issues . Reality is Cobra make them all.

Starboard are having difficulty supplying foils and foil sails for existing demand, imagine if it became Olympic. Probably ok for Dorian, he most likely has direct access to the latest equipment but the average punter has to wait 6 months at least atm, I could fore see a fleet of well connected sailors having the latest equipment and all the rest left to buy their secondhand left overs.

Not sure I agree with his analysis of the numbers, or at least his rationale. Arguing RSX is to difficult to transition from junior to senior may be valid but I can't see how foils will make that easier. Not that I'm a foiler but it appears that mistakes on foils are punished much harder than on other classes. For example a less than perfect gybe could result in losing 50 or more metres in a race. Seems more elitist than RSX not less.

They make it easier because foiling is way less physically demanding that any other form of windsurfing. As soon as you're in the air a majority of the load comes off the rig, it's night and day compared to the RSX or anything else. There is also a bigger competitive weight range than i'd suggest any other class, meaning the kids can actually compete.

As an example, when I first was interested in racing windsurfers I looked at Formula because it was big at the time, looked fast and fun. I literally sailed one for 20mins with only a 10.0m and never sailed one again. I just new straight away I would never compete and it was physically ridiculous, was probably 65kg at the time. Forward probably 15 years to foiling and it's a different world. At still only 70kg I can comfortably race competitively with the big guys and it is nowhere near as physically demanding.

The punishment for mistakes thing is just a function of the speed, time wise it's probably not hugely different....simply because you're going so fast the gaps look huge. At the state rounds for example we can often have what look like big gaps at the finish but when you look at the time of say the top 3 they might be spread over 20 seconds. But 20 seconds on a foil is 250m or so downwind.

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Chris249 said..

Belly25 said..

Chris249 said..

Rob11 said..

windsufering said..
Hopefully the council will come to their senses and vote for the Windsurfer Lt

When you convince Froome to race on this:


and Usain Bolt to run 100m on sand track
Ill vote for Windsurfer Lt (not that RSX is much more exciting but still...)

Actually, the LT is actually probably closer in performance to the fastest windsurfer than Froome's bike is to the fastest bicycles. Froome's bike is about half the speed, or a bit less, of the fastest bicycle. The Olympic track bikes are slower still. The cycling historian and multiple British champion Michael Henderson actually rode the actual bike that set the hour record in 1893 and said it actually felt eerily like his own high-tech machine on the track.

I don't want the LT in the Games but the fact is that much Olympic kit is heavily restricted. And track hasn't changed too much in its basics yet it's the top-rated sport in the Olympics. If new stuff was better in the Olympics then MTB would probably be the top sport in the Games, and it's certainly not.

PS - there's lots of young adults out there who love simple old steel bikes and have no interest in windsurfing. Maybe we should learn the lessons from that?

This thread is heading in the same direction as its predecessor, down the path of personal bias and opinion. Which is healthy for those who want to share their stoke but limits discussion.
The problem I see with the Olympics in general, is that it is antiquated, run by self serving older men, relying on advertising revenue to promote MANY out dated sports. While I'm all for preserving heritage, I am often fascinated (as a sports trainer) that Olympic athletes will dedicate so much time and effort in pursuit of excellence in sports that have no transference (or financial benefit) once that Olympic cycle is over. I commend the dedication of an Olympic Shot Putter as an example, that is a lot of training for so few opportunities.
Perhaps a look at the mega-data that Youtube can offer may be more insightful into what people want to view in sport (if viewing popularity and participation rates are your gauge for what should be at the Olympics).
If preserving the "heritage" sports is what you are after I'm not convinced the economic demands of the Olympics will be met in the future.
Evolve or go extinct I say.

Some of the "personal bias and opinion" is actually driven by data such as rankings numbers in various types of sport, analysis of the numerical data on TV ratings as contained in the IOC OPC reports and stuff like that.

Many of the top rating sports are actually the "heritage" sports like running, swimming and gymnastics. The fact is that many more people watch people do 6 knots in a straight line down a flat water pool than watch skiffs or RSXs doing 20knots+ jumping over ocean swells. More people watch kayaks go in a straight line down flat water than watch kayaks go down the whitewater rapids. "Extreme" MTBing doesn't rate particularly well.

There is just no data that supports any belief that extreme Olympic sports attract more viewers. Most people want to watch people running or swimming on a flat surface in their lanes.

Does anyone watch swimming, gymnastics or running on TV outside of the Olympics or Commonwealth games coverage?
To suggest that these sports are what people want to watch on TV, on a weekly basis, is as inaccurate as suggesting that the Olympics offer extreme sports at all. Cross Country mountain biking is far from "Extreme".

You are nuts to believe that, "Extreme" MTBing doesn't rate particularly well". Rather than using TV ratings you might want to dig a bit deeper at what people are actually looking at on other screens.
Local governments in Australia and abroad are investing heavily in world class mountain bike parks (inclusive of most mountain bike disciplines) due to the growing popularity of the sport and the huge potential for tourism $$$. Tasmania is a perfect example.

BTW - Best thing I've read on this thread so far;

also, just so you know; "not to sound narky but basing opinions on experience still counts for something once you leave kindy. "
sounds very snarky... I guess your grand-kids didn't tell you that. *not to be an asshole or anything* .

Perfect

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GoofyRyder-2206 said..

windsufering said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..

Chris249 said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..
not to say strapless isn't fun. but simply less practical for a board on it's rail.

Well, the point of the LT is to have fun, so being fun IS being practical.

The sail maybe still pumpable, and I agree having not sailed on the equipment i wouldn't know to what degree, but I am sure that the RS:X sails and the Techno sails which i have used, would have a greater return for energy in.

You are right, the other sails give more return for energy. That is arguably a good thing because it means that pumping is less effective and therefore you have to concentrate more on other details. In the IMCO, for example, pumping worked pretty well so you could often ignore windshifts and it was a bit of a straight-line pumpfest for many sailors. In the LT, pumping harder normally gives less of a speed advantage so you still work shifts a lot even when pumping.

I've yet to meet a raceboard sailor with a small fin that doesn't carry at least an 8.5. big sails will still work with small fins, but only going downwind, the smaller fin just creates a center of effort behind that of the large sails - and due to the large difference in strength of the efforts the board will point downwind.

Depends on the location of the sail's centre of effort. You may have it the wrong way around, however - the fin creates the centre of lateral resistance not the centre of effort. The big fin goes fast but slows tacking down, which changes tactics a lot. Horses for courses.

So again, not saying the gear is bad. just saying there is gear that is better for the purpose of Olympic racing.

Agree with your last line! Good sailing.

Can see your way of thinking about this, :)
yes the fin creates a center of lateral resistance... - this is just an opposing center of effort.. agree with the tacking statement, have sailed a few board with big fins now.. they definitely tack slower... but after sailing my race board for a little bit now i find it tacks ridiculously slow... might be because i still only have an 8.5 to use on it... but i think it's more to do with water line length.. not to mention the whopper of a center board it has underneath when tacking.

how does the LT go with catapults... no back footstraps would surely allow a few more 'cannonballs' if you miss-timed a big bit of chop?
all part of the fun i guess :P

No broken ankles
btw ask your grand pa what it was like to sail in 100 + fleets regularly in Aust

None of my grandparent ever sailed unfortunately... I can appreciate that back in the day they were the newest and coolest toys to be fleet racing in... but times have changed.

Times have certainly changed, back in the old days no one cared what you sailed , hence the large fleets. Now days if your not on the the brightest shiniest most expensive new toys your not cool. And if you are it gives you the right to belittle anyone else if there not on the brightest shiniest most expensive new toy , which gets outdated in six months . Enjoy your sailing and if you belittle people expect a whack in the chops.
no doubt your following egg boy on twitter and Insta

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GoofyRyder-2206 said..

Gestalt said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..
I'm only young, and perhaps a bit naive on this matter... but i think i still have some valid points...
As far as I've seen, the new LT has some numbers in younger groms, as they are a great learning platform, but most of it's numbers are in those who stopped windsurfing for a ... while... and come back to the sport on gear they are more used to. there are a few having a go at it for something different too. But as a racing class... and i cannot say i have sailed an LT, but i have used soft sails before... and in light wind... due to their more 'floppy' nature they are certainly not pumpable, and don't have the greatest shape as they require wind to fill them out... meaning you have to lean the sail to leeward to fill it with gravity... this also means you can't hook in for stability or any sort of 'locking in' in light winds...
as far as higher wind.... i have in past found soft sails to be extremely twitchy and back-fill in the luff very easily. not to mention a strapless board with a tiny fin.... which means even in strong winds it will be railing on it's center board upwind... in 15 knts there is enough chop to loose grip and end up in the drink. Also... a 6.0 m sail??? Most of my windsurfing and almost all of my racing has been done on a techno293, more recently a techno293 plus, I'm only 72kg and hold down an 8.5 in 25 to < 30 knts of wind and it's still pumpable enough in light wind, twin cam... holds it shape in no wind at all. techno gear as far as big picture is reasonably cheap.. and fast... i have sent a techno to 23knts.. a few friends of mine have made them go even faster... The LT just doesn't have a wind range that is exciting to me... RS:X is still a strong class, I have seen them going pretty darn fast and still sailable in the lighter stuff... And the foils have come along way... and im sure will continue to be developed.. I vote RS:X should stay, until the foils are without doubt ready and more exiting.

problem is there are a lot of people making negative comments about the LT rig that have never used one.

for clarity. the rig is most certainly pumpable and the good sailors are most certainly able to lock in in light winds.
if your soft sail is twitchy then look at how it;s rigged.

strapless is a lot of fun to sail. tiny fin is works no problems.. used to be with racboard class the fin was even smaller.

in strong winds the board does not rail on it;s centreboard as the centreboard is retractable.
the small 6m sails works very well because of the items you suggest make it not work.

honestly if you think sailing an LT in 30 knots is not exciting then you obviously haven;t sailed one. oh wait you haven't sailed one.

so everything you said is based on what? a guess, a hunch, something someone else said who had also never sailed an LT like half of the people commenting in this thread.?

not to sound narky but basing opinions on experience still counts for something once you leave kindy.

Not trying to bash the gear :) I think it's really cool and all... but i think for racing it's more of a fun or introductory class.
There is no problem with smaller fins, I now sail a race board with a small fin (38cm).. quite a step down from the 50cm fin I used to use in a techno+, point of that statement was that the board isn't gonna point to any useful degree going upwind on just the fin. It would require the dagger-board to be down. same a race board. meaning if you want to be competitive on the upwind in strong winds, it has to be down and inevitably the board will rail... and not to say strapless isn't fun. but simply less practical for a board on it's rail.
The sail maybe still pumpable, and I agree having not sailed on the equipment i wouldn't know to what degree, but I am sure that the RS:X sails and the Techno sails which i have used, would have a greater return for energy in. the more modern sails when pumped in a more downward fashion twist a lot in the head whilst keeping a tight leech, meaning that when the sail flexes it produces mostly forward thrust. the LT sails as far as I've seen hold a much more scoop-like sail shape even at the top. so for large circular scooping pumps they will work well, but you'd reach 'terminal velocity' pretty quickly, the shorter sharper pumps that are so effective with more modern designed sails allow the wind to continue to flow directly over the foil allowing the board to keep accelerating until the hull drag - not sail drag from large circular pumps stops the board accelerating. On top of this.... the sail is also small. as you mentioned, the old race boards do have small fins. But I've yet to meet a raceboard sailor with a small fin that doesn't carry at least an 8.5. big sails will still work with small fins, but only going downwind, the smaller fin just creates a center of effort behind that of the large sails - and due to the large difference in strength of the efforts the board will point downwind.

So again, not saying the gear is bad. just saying there is gear that is better for the purpose of Olympic racing.

And no, my opinion is not based on a guess, hunch or anyone else's opinion. It is just a reasoned approach to the ability of gear i havn't sailed based on past experiences of gear i'd consider to be similar design as well as observations I've made whilst sitting on a start line next to one and happily and easily pumping over and away from it.

also, just so you know; "not to sound narky but basing opinions on experience still counts for something once you leave kindy. "
sounds very snarky... I guess your grand-kids didn't tell you that. *not to be an asshole or anything* .

grand kids. not likely. a long way off.

nows a good time to dig up. the holes pretty deep.

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windsufering said..
Hopefully the council will come to their senses and vote for the Windsurfer Lt

I can understand and relate to your hope, but unfortunately, I dont think there is a skerrick of 'sense' in the process. To me, it appears disfunctionally corrupt.

Edit: And then I read a bit further. I wonder if a more rational decision could be made if the participants in this forum discussion were the actual decision makers.

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sailquik said..

windsufering said..
Hopefully the council will come to their senses and vote for the Windsurfer Lt

I can understand and relate to your hope, but unfortunately, I dont think there is a skerrick of 'sense' in the process. To me, it appears disfunctionally corrupt.

Yep it's all about the $$$.

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windsufering said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..

windsufering said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..

Chris249 said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..
not to say strapless isn't fun. but simply less practical for a board on it's rail.

Well, the point of the LT is to have fun, so being fun IS being practical.

The sail maybe still pumpable, and I agree having not sailed on the equipment i wouldn't know to what degree, but I am sure that the RS:X sails and the Techno sails which i have used, would have a greater return for energy in.

You are right, the other sails give more return for energy. That is arguably a good thing because it means that pumping is less effective and therefore you have to concentrate more on other details. In the IMCO, for example, pumping worked pretty well so you could often ignore windshifts and it was a bit of a straight-line pumpfest for many sailors. In the LT, pumping harder normally gives less of a speed advantage so you still work shifts a lot even when pumping.

I've yet to meet a raceboard sailor with a small fin that doesn't carry at least an 8.5. big sails will still work with small fins, but only going downwind, the smaller fin just creates a center of effort behind that of the large sails - and due to the large difference in strength of the efforts the board will point downwind.

Depends on the location of the sail's centre of effort. You may have it the wrong way around, however - the fin creates the centre of lateral resistance not the centre of effort. The big fin goes fast but slows tacking down, which changes tactics a lot. Horses for courses.

So again, not saying the gear is bad. just saying there is gear that is better for the purpose of Olympic racing.

Agree with your last line! Good sailing.

Can see your way of thinking about this, :)
yes the fin creates a center of lateral resistance... - this is just an opposing center of effort.. agree with the tacking statement, have sailed a few board with big fins now.. they definitely tack slower... but after sailing my race board for a little bit now i find it tacks ridiculously slow... might be because i still only have an 8.5 to use on it... but i think it's more to do with water line length.. not to mention the whopper of a center board it has underneath when tacking.

how does the LT go with catapults... no back footstraps would surely allow a few more 'cannonballs' if you miss-timed a big bit of chop?
all part of the fun i guess :P

No broken ankles
btw ask your grand pa what it was like to sail in 100 + fleets regularly in Aust

None of my grandparent ever sailed unfortunately... I can appreciate that back in the day they were the newest and coolest toys to be fleet racing in... but times have changed.

Times have certainly changed, back in the old days no one cared what you sailed , hence the large fleets. Now days if your not on the the brightest shiniest most expensive new toys your not cool. And if you are it gives you the right to belittle anyone else if there not on the brightest shiniest most expensive new toy , which gets outdated in six months . Enjoy your sailing and if you belittle people expect a whack in the chops.
no doubt your following egg boy on twitter and Insta

Your out of line again, he just expressed an opinion on one of the classes that has put in a submission to become Olympic. If you can't handle the LT coming under any sort of scrutiny stop putting it forward as the saviour of windsurfing.

He expressed himself very well and put forward a solid argument that demonstrated a very sound understanding of racing windsurfers around a course. Wisdom beyond his years as was already mentioned. You on the other hand showed a complete lack of maturity by throwing another little tantrum because someone dared to say something about the LT that wasn't in line with the devine status you afford it. If anyone is guilty of belittling anyone its comments designed to ridicule him based on his age. Comments like following eggboy on insta or about kindy. Play the ball not the man

ps. you can't expect a teenager to get excited about a rig that was out dated in 1980, thats just stupid

The Windsurfer LT may well be one of the cheaper (circa AUD$2400) and most accessible sailing craft which will open up sailing to many more nations at the Olympics. What is the point of adopting foiling at the Olympics when that is already at the PWA.

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Belly25 said..

Chris249 said..



Some of the "personal bias and opinion" is actually driven by data such as rankings numbers in various types of sport, analysis of the numerical data on TV ratings as contained in the IOC OPC reports and stuff like that.

Many of the top rating sports are actually the "heritage" sports like running, swimming and gymnastics. The fact is that many more people watch people do 6 knots in a straight line down a flat water pool than watch skiffs or RSXs doing 20knots+ jumping over ocean swells. More people watch kayaks go in a straight line down flat water than watch kayaks go down the whitewater rapids. "Extreme" MTBing doesn't rate particularly well.

There is just no data that supports any belief that extreme Olympic sports attract more viewers. Most people want to watch people running or swimming on a flat surface in their lanes.

Does anyone watch swimming, gymnastics or running on TV outside of the Olympics or Commonwealth games coverage?
To suggest that these sports are what people want to watch on TV, on a weekly basis, is as inaccurate as suggesting that the Olympics offer extreme sports at all. Cross Country mountain biking is far from "Extreme".

You are nuts to believe that, "Extreme" MTBing doesn't rate particularly well". Rather than using TV ratings you might want to dig a bit deeper at what people are actually looking at on other screens.
Local governments in Australia and abroad are investing heavily in world class mountain bike parks (inclusive of most mountain bike disciplines) due to the growing popularity of the sport and the huge potential for tourism $$$. Tasmania is a perfect example.

BTW - Best thing I've read on this thread so far;

also, just so you know; "not to sound narky but basing opinions on experience still counts for something once you leave kindy. "
sounds very snarky... I guess your grand-kids didn't tell you that. *not to be an asshole or anything* .

Perfect

1- Who in the world suggested anyone was talking about what people are "watching on a weekly basis"? We are talking about an event that takes place once every four years.

2- The definition of "extreme" is arguable and irrelevant and I put into quotes for that reason. Many people, from broadcasters to academics and others, DO refer to Olympic-style MTB racing as an extreme sport. While XC is not like downhill, it is still newer and closer to an "extreme" sport than road cycling and probably as "extreme" as foil windsurfing or FW - and yet it doesn't rate particularly well.

3- I'm not nuts and it's not helpful to say silly things instead of being objective. We are talking about ratings at the OLYMPIC GAMES. The IOC OPC releases some figures every four years so we don't have to rely on opinion - we can use data. The data they provide on "appeal" is about the number of media who are accredited, the number of paid spectators, the number of website visits, etc. These figures show that "extreme" or new sports do NOT rate better.

Using cycling as an example, because it has four disciplines we can get information on, there were more spectators for road and track than MTB, with BMX (which claims to be a true "extreme" sport) trailing far behind. The same applies in the number of media people who attended each discipline. In kayaking, which also has a split between an "extreme" side (whitewater slalom) and flat-water racing, there were twice as many live spectators and media for the guys who race on flat water in a straight line than for the guys who bounce around in white water.

The IOC does seem to have stopped giving TV ratings figures broken down by discipline for recent Games. The last data I can find that breaks it down to individual disciplines indicates that track got the most viewers (32.8 mill on average), followed by road and BMX (23.8 and 23.2), with MTB well behind on 16.4. In kayaking the flat water straight-line stuff averaged 32 million spectators whereas bouncing down whitewater got 22 million. At the same Olympiad, people swimming at about 6 knots in a straight line got an average of almost 59 million viewers.

Again, the point is that the newer and "cooler" events do NOT get higher ratings in Olympic coverage. Yes, they may get viewers at other times - but the IOC doesn't really care about that. They don't get money from someone watching Youtube vids of someone getting huge air outside the OIympics. We are talking an Olympic sport here, the IOC is the customer.

Just to say it again - in the OLYMPICS, which is what we are talking about, there is NO trend for newer and more "extreme" disciplines or sports to get more watchers, so there is NO reason to think that dropping the RSX - a board I don't particularly like - will do anything to raise windsurfing's profile.

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GoofyRyder-2206 said..

Can see your way of thinking about this, :)
yes the fin creates a center of lateral resistance... - this is just an opposing center of effort.. agree with the tacking statement, have sailed a few board with big fins now.. they definitely tack slower... but after sailing my race board for a little bit now i find it tacks ridiculously slow... might be because i still only have an 8.5 to use on it... but i think it's more to do with water line length.. not to mention the whopper of a center board it has underneath when tacking.

how does the LT go with catapults... no back footstraps would surely allow a few more 'cannonballs' if you miss-timed a big bit of chop?
all part of the fun i guess :P

Yep, it's all part of the fun! You've got to be a bit more delicate with your feet and wrestle with the sail a bit more than on other boards. Don't get me wrong, I also looooove that feeling of locking in on a Raceboard, with the track back and the board just skidding on the tail! Whatever we love it's all great. I

I apologise if couple of us get a bit touchy about LTs - we've copped a lot of stuff in the past. I just wish we could all just have fun without slagging off each other and other types of gear. Good winds!

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RichardG said..
The Windsurfer LT may well be one of the cheaper (circa AUD$2400) and most accessible sailing craft which will open up sailing to many more nations at the Olympics. What is the point of adopting foiling at the Olympics when that is already at the PWA.

I think Olympic selection would mess with the class, certainly in the early years of its rebirth. I've been in three classes that were picked up for the Games (Division II/Lechner, Raceboard in the form of the IMCO, and Laser Radial) and it showed that unless you already have really strong local fleets like the Radial did, the class can shrink or at least not grow.

We'd also cop so much flak that it would be exhausting. We probably just need to concentrate on what we have, which is doing really well.

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Chris249 said..I think Olympic selection would mess with the class, certainly in the early years of its rebirth. I've been in three classes that were picked up for the Games (Division II/Lechner, Raceboard in the form of the IMCO, and Laser Radial) and it showed that unless you already have really strong local fleets like the Radial did, the class can shrink or at least not grow.

We'd also cop so much flak that it would be exhausting. We probably just need to concentrate on what we have, which is doing really well.

RichardG said..
The Windsurfer LT may well be one of the cheaper (circa AUD$2400) and most accessible sailing craft which will open up sailing to many more nations at the Olympics. What is the point of adopting foiling at the Olympics when that is already at the PWA.

I think Olympic selection would mess with the class, certainly in the early years of its rebirth. I've been in three classes that were picked up for the Games (Division II/Lechner, Raceboard in the form of the IMCO, and Laser Radial) and it showed that unless you already have really strong local fleets like the Radial did, the class can shrink or at least not grow.

We'd also cop so much flak that it would be exhausting. We probably just need to concentrate on what we have, which is doing really well.

I agree. The bid for Olympic selection is probably good publicity. The LT doesn't need the Olympics to grow. The RSX does.

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cammd said..

windsufering said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..

windsufering said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..

Chris249 said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..
not to say strapless isn't fun. but simply less practical for a board on it's rail.

Well, the point of the LT is to have fun, so being fun IS being practical.

The sail maybe still pumpable, and I agree having not sailed on the equipment i wouldn't know to what degree, but I am sure that the RS:X sails and the Techno sails which i have used, would have a greater return for energy in.

You are right, the other sails give more return for energy. That is arguably a good thing because it means that pumping is less effective and therefore you have to concentrate more on other details. In the IMCO, for example, pumping worked pretty well so you could often ignore windshifts and it was a bit of a straight-line pumpfest for many sailors. In the LT, pumping harder normally gives less of a speed advantage so you still work shifts a lot even when pumping.

I've yet to meet a raceboard sailor with a small fin that doesn't carry at least an 8.5. big sails will still work with small fins, but only going downwind, the smaller fin just creates a center of effort behind that of the large sails - and due to the large difference in strength of the efforts the board will point downwind.

Depends on the location of the sail's centre of effort. You may have it the wrong way around, however - the fin creates the centre of lateral resistance not the centre of effort. The big fin goes fast but slows tacking down, which changes tactics a lot. Horses for courses.

So again, not saying the gear is bad. just saying there is gear that is better for the purpose of Olympic racing.

Agree with your last line! Good sailing.

Can see your way of thinking about this, :)
yes the fin creates a center of lateral resistance... - this is just an opposing center of effort.. agree with the tacking statement, have sailed a few board with big fins now.. they definitely tack slower... but after sailing my race board for a little bit now i find it tacks ridiculously slow... might be because i still only have an 8.5 to use on it... but i think it's more to do with water line length.. not to mention the whopper of a center board it has underneath when tacking.

how does the LT go with catapults... no back footstraps would surely allow a few more 'cannonballs' if you miss-timed a big bit of chop?
all part of the fun i guess :P

No broken ankles
btw ask your grand pa what it was like to sail in 100 + fleets regularly in Aust

None of my grandparent ever sailed unfortunately... I can appreciate that back in the day they were the newest and coolest toys to be fleet racing in... but times have changed.

Times have certainly changed, back in the old days no one cared what you sailed , hence the large fleets. Now days if your not on the the brightest shiniest most expensive new toys your not cool. And if you are it gives you the right to belittle anyone else if there not on the brightest shiniest most expensive new toy , which gets outdated in six months . Enjoy your sailing and if you belittle people expect a whack in the chops.
no doubt your following egg boy on twitter and Insta

Your out of line again, he just expressed an opinion on one of the classes that has put in a submission to become Olympic. If you can't handle the LT coming under any sort of scrutiny stop putting it forward as the saviour of windsurfing.

He expressed himself very well and put forward a solid argument that demonstrated a very sound understanding of racing windsurfers around a course. Wisdom beyond his years as was already mentioned. You on the other hand showed a complete lack of maturity by throwing another little tantrum because someone dared to say something about the LT that wasn't in line with the devine status you afford it. If anyone is guilty of belittling anyone its comments designed to ridicule him based on his age. Comments like following eggboy on insta or about kindy. Play the ball not the man

ps. you can't expect a teenager to get excited about a rig that was out dated in 1980, thats just stupid

Yep I'm sorry I agree with every thing you say, he has wisdom beyond his years !

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cammd said..ps. you can't expect a teenager to get excited about a rig that was out dated in 1980, thats just stupid

windsufering said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..

windsufering said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..

Chris249 said..

GoofyRyder-2206 said..
not to say strapless isn't fun. but simply less practical for a board on it's rail.

Well, the point of the LT is to have fun, so being fun IS being practical.

The sail maybe still pumpable, and I agree having not sailed on the equipment i wouldn't know to what degree, but I am sure that the RS:X sails and the Techno sails which i have used, would have a greater return for energy in.

You are right, the other sails give more return for energy. That is arguably a good thing because it means that pumping is less effective and therefore you have to concentrate more on other details. In the IMCO, for example, pumping worked pretty well so you could often ignore windshifts and it was a bit of a straight-line pumpfest for many sailors. In the LT, pumping harder normally gives less of a speed advantage so you still work shifts a lot even when pumping.

I've yet to meet a raceboard sailor with a small fin that doesn't carry at least an 8.5. big sails will still work with small fins, but only going downwind, the smaller fin just creates a center of effort behind that of the large sails - and due to the large difference in strength of the efforts the board will point downwind.

Depends on the location of the sail's centre of effort. You may have it the wrong way around, however - the fin creates the centre of lateral resistance not the centre of effort. The big fin goes fast but slows tacking down, which changes tactics a lot. Horses for courses.

So again, not saying the gear is bad. just saying there is gear that is better for the purpose of Olympic racing.

Agree with your last line! Good sailing.

Can see your way of thinking about this, :)
yes the fin creates a center of lateral resistance... - this is just an opposing center of effort.. agree with the tacking statement, have sailed a few board with big fins now.. they definitely tack slower... but after sailing my race board for a little bit now i find it tacks ridiculously slow... might be because i still only have an 8.5 to use on it... but i think it's more to do with water line length.. not to mention the whopper of a center board it has underneath when tacking.

how does the LT go with catapults... no back footstraps would surely allow a few more 'cannonballs' if you miss-timed a big bit of chop?
all part of the fun i guess :P

No broken ankles
btw ask your grand pa what it was like to sail in 100 + fleets regularly in Aust

None of my grandparent ever sailed unfortunately... I can appreciate that back in the day they were the newest and coolest toys to be fleet racing in... but times have changed.

Times have certainly changed, back in the old days no one cared what you sailed , hence the large fleets. Now days if your not on the the brightest shiniest most expensive new toys your not cool. And if you are it gives you the right to belittle anyone else if there not on the brightest shiniest most expensive new toy , which gets outdated in six months . Enjoy your sailing and if you belittle people expect a whack in the chops.
no doubt your following egg boy on twitter and Insta

Your out of line again, he just expressed an opinion on one of the classes that has put in a submission to become Olympic. If you can't handle the LT coming under any sort of scrutiny stop putting it forward as the saviour of windsurfing.

He expressed himself very well and put forward a solid argument that demonstrated a very sound understanding of racing windsurfers around a course. Wisdom beyond his years as was already mentioned. You on the other hand showed a complete lack of maturity by throwing another little tantrum because someone dared to say something about the LT that wasn't in line with the devine status you afford it. If anyone is guilty of belittling anyone its comments designed to ridicule him based on his age. Comments like following eggboy on insta or about kindy. Play the ball not the man

ps. you can't expect a teenager to get excited about a rig that was out dated in 1980, thats just stupid

It was introduced in 1985-86 to replace the older sail you reference. In 1983-1984 that rig type was used in the WSMA World Cup Raceboards and Slalom and it was state of the art. I get excited by that rig. I think kids/teenagers etc enjoy it too.

35 years ago (1984) this was state of the art

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RichardG said..

Chris249 said..I think Olympic selection would mess with the class, certainly in the early years of its rebirth. I've been in three classes that were picked up for the Games (Division II/Lechner, Raceboard in the form of the IMCO, and Laser Radial) and it showed that unless you already have really strong local fleets like the Radial did, the class can shrink or at least not grow.

We'd also cop so much flak that it would be exhausting. We probably just need to concentrate on what we have, which is doing really well.

RichardG said..
The Windsurfer LT may well be one of the cheaper (circa AUD$2400) and most accessible sailing craft which will open up sailing to many more nations at the Olympics. What is the point of adopting foiling at the Olympics when that is already at the PWA.

I think Olympic selection would mess with the class, certainly in the early years of its rebirth. I've been in three classes that were picked up for the Games (Division II/Lechner, Raceboard in the form of the IMCO, and Laser Radial) and it showed that unless you already have really strong local fleets like the Radial did, the class can shrink or at least not grow.

We'd also cop so much flak that it would be exhausting. We probably just need to concentrate on what we have, which is doing really well.

I agree. The bid for Olympic selection is probably good publicity. The LT doesn't need the Olympics to grow. The RSX does.

I think that is statement is spot on, outside of Olympics the RSX is doomed whereas the LT is enjoying awesome growth.

how about the 3-4 people on this forum that heap **** on the LT across multiple threads actually go and start sailing them.

until then your "OPINION" is just personal bias with no experience or understanding.

we read pages of hi brow analysis of the lt of which none of the people actually sailing the boards agree with.

you are told as much but keep pushing your ill informed agenda.

as for no kids would enjoy the windsurfer rig that's just more ill informed rubbish. i know plenty of kids that love sailing windsurfers with their only complaint being the mast and boom are heavy.

those that dont compete at LT forget it's not just about course racing there is slalom, marathon and freestyle.

as far as olumpics go i coundnt give a **** what class gets the nod.

Discussing the pro and cons of one class over another for Olympic selection in a windsurfing forum is valid thing to do and given its happening this week its a timely subject as well . That doesn't equate to heaping crap on one or the other. You don't need to take it so personally, we all respect your right to sail whatever you want.

So if someone says the LT sail is to small don't get all cut about it FFS, it just an observation based on their experience with small sails.

edit: I know I am one of those 3 or 4 people your referring to, I was super careful in this thread to not offend any LT sailors knowing how cut you get, but it got turned into a LT vs the rest thread anyway. Why because you guys make it that way when you post stuff proclaiming the LT is the only valid choice. for example "Lets hope the council come to their senses and choose the LT". Fair enough that's an opinion but if you want to express that be prepared for some disagreement.

Fair comment, Cammd.

I think the Lt has its strengths. It's not for everyone just like foiling is not for everyone. I have sailed a Lt type 80s windsurfer when I was starting out. It was cheap(free) and I learned a ton on that setup and would not be foiling today if I hadn't learned the basic windsurfing skills in my first year on that kit and in fact I see myself potentially buying a Lt one day for a nice cruising around kit and to teach others. My point here is they are too totally different animals as many on here would agree. Since then I've advanced to a 90s 145 litre board w/fin, then older formula boards and then newer ones and then plugging a foil into a formula board. I plan on going with a dedicated foil board now. As foiling has changed things for me as discussed by others in this thread and opened up a new aspect of windsurfing that I love.

I think everyone should be alarmed about the comment from Dorian (thanks to cjw's link):
I am very concerned to note that the Working Party tasked with evaluating the tenders contained no specialist windsurfing experts - no current or former champions or coaches, no elite windsurfers from any discipline, no person intimately familiar with the RS:X at consumer level, no person involved with the production of windsurfing equipment, or any other person who could accurately apprise the Board and subsequently Council on the merits of the proposed bids nor the state of the current Olympic windsurfing events.

I think These board members are complete jerks who have probably never windsurfed before or done anything that involves wind except pass it .... and make windsurfing less exciting for the Olympics by continuing with RS:X. Just my $0.02

Well, on the other hand we windsurfers are not particularly good at putting ourselves forward to volunteer to work for World Sailing, either. We're a pretty small part of World Sailing and we tend to run off and do our own thing. It makes it harder for us to climb the WS ladder and it also makes it harder for them to help us up it.

So it COULD be a WS stuff-up, or it could be that WS looked around and found that all the windsurfers were off sailing. Apart from anything else, you'd hope they would only put people in the Working Party if they knew they were logical, reasonable people who had no conflict of interest and could express themselves. They couldn't just drag a few people off the beach and let them loose on a multi-million dollar question.

So - what have YOU done recently for the sport? If you've done nothing, how can you sling **** at the volunteers who try to help? If you have done something for the sport would YOU like it if someone called YOU a complete jerk?

I read a couple of the articles that attempted to detail the process involved in avoiding the antitrust laws which seem to be like a little grenade into an already dysfunctional situation. World Sailing are trying to argue that appointing a single supplier is better for one design racing and by running selections every 8 years that gives other designs and manufacturers the opportunity to have their design selected and avoids accusations of monopoly behaviour. In practice this if obviously a lot more complex because the legal details are a bit fuzzy and due to the messy nature of the selection process. If one article is to be believed it was the actions of an Italian boat manufacturer who makes a boat like the Laser who started the legal process.

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NelsonFoils said..
35 years ago (1984) this was state of the art

These are 1985 sails as released in 1984. The LT rig would have been used in 1983 World Cup. Similar to this 1984 NP Stratos sail being used by Richard Whyte in the 1983 NP photo shoot:




I think Ken Winner won World Cup events using this type of sail or placed highly just behind Robby. The great thing about the LT there is one sail and board , one design and it's simple fun and competitive. It is also physically demanding and improves health and fitness. Racing around a course is fun and challenging. It the closest windsurfing has to yacht racing. I don't really care about the Olympics most of the time we never get to see the windsurfing event running and it is very poorly covered at least as I see it.

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cammd said..
Discussing the pro and cons of one class over another for Olympic selection in a windsurfing forum is valid thing to do and given its happening this week its a timely subject as well . That doesn't equate to heaping crap on one or the other. You don't need to take it so personally, we all respect your right to sail whatever you want.

So if someone says the LT sail is to small don't get all cut about it FFS, it just an observation based on their experience with small sails.

edit: I know I am one of those 3 or 4 people your referring to, I was super careful in this thread to not offend any LT sailors knowing how cut you get, but it got turned into a LT vs the rest thread anyway. Why because you guys make it that way when you post stuff proclaiming the LT is the only valid choice. for example "Lets hope the council come to their senses and choose the LT". Fair enough that's an opinion but if you want to express that be prepared for some disagreement.

how can you discuss the pros and cons of anything if you have no experience. you don't have prerequisite knowledge or experience. You and a bunch of others are very good at providing reasons why the LT is not suitable and yet you have zero prior experience.

I'm not taking it personally. I don't care what you sail either but lets not turn this into a forum where people who have no experience with something think they know it all.

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said..

cammd said..
Discussing the pro and cons of one class over another for Olympic selection in a windsurfing forum is valid thing to do and given its happening this week its a timely subject as well . That doesn't equate to heaping crap on one or the other. You don't need to take it so personally, we all respect your right to sail whatever you want.

So if someone says the LT sail is to small don't get all cut about it FFS, it just an observation based on their experience with small sails.

edit: I know I am one of those 3 or 4 people your referring to, I was super careful in this thread to not offend any LT sailors knowing how cut you get, but it got turned into a LT vs the rest thread anyway. Why because you guys make it that way when you post stuff proclaiming the LT is the only valid choice. for example "Lets hope the council come to their senses and choose the LT". Fair enough that's an opinion but if you want to express that be prepared for some disagreement.

how can you discuss the pros and cons of anything if you have no experience. you don't have prerequisite knowledge or experience. You and a bunch of others are very good at providing reasons why the LT is not suitable and yet you have zero prior experience.

I'm not taking it personally. I don't care what you sail either but lets not turn this into a forum where people who have no experience with something think they know it all.

As cammd so eloquently said though it goes for both sides. When's the last foil race you entered?

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CJW said..

Gestalt said..

cammd said..
Discussing the pro and cons of one class over another for Olympic selection in a windsurfing forum is valid thing to do and given its happening this week its a timely subject as well . That doesn't equate to heaping crap on one or the other. You don't need to take it so personally, we all respect your right to sail whatever you want.

So if someone says the LT sail is to small don't get all cut about it FFS, it just an observation based on their experience with small sails.

edit: I know I am one of those 3 or 4 people your referring to, I was super careful in this thread to not offend any LT sailors knowing how cut you get, but it got turned into a LT vs the rest thread anyway. Why because you guys make it that way when you post stuff proclaiming the LT is the only valid choice. for example "Lets hope the council come to their senses and choose the LT". Fair enough that's an opinion but if you want to express that be prepared for some disagreement.

how can you discuss the pros and cons of anything if you have no experience. you don't have prerequisite knowledge or experience. You and a bunch of others are very good at providing reasons why the LT is not suitable and yet you have zero prior experience.

I'm not taking it personally. I don't care what you sail either but lets not turn this into a forum where people who have no experience with something think they know it all.

As cammd so eloquently said though it goes for both sides. When's the last foil race you entered?

can you show me where is said anything for or against foils.

while your at it can you show me where i said anything for or against any of the classes in this thread.

i think you really missed my point.

We raced against the windfoils in the Cock of the Swan. The windfoils are much faster than the LT but sadly they did not beat the team of foiling moths and WASPs around the 25km course. The foil is more efficient and finishes 1 hour earlier than the LT expending less energy than the LT sailor. It is clearly part of the future but it is not the only future of windsurfing. A kitefoiler would probably have beaten the windfoilers. I would say there appears to be more racing in WA on the LT than the windfoils. Is this the position in other states ? We have races every weekend in the summer and a winter series as well. I have a windfoil as well but the feeling is very different and I am still learning and can't say yet whether I prefer it over the LT. It is all cool in my opinion.