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AUS 814 said..

RichardG said..
I suspect it might be necessary to keep the RSX for 2024 to allow the RSX to go forward for 2020. I understand there are lobbyists around the world that are advocating just that but for reasons that foiling is not ready as yet and a new Olympic board would be better selected for 2028 once the one design class has established and in a much cheaper form.

Sorry but why wait, there have already been problems with getting RSX equipment, look at the drama they have had trying to produce fins that don't break and are consistent in performance . No one apparently enjoys sailing the RSX, I am sure Severne and starboard have plans well advanced to ramp up production if WS gives the go ahead. Foiling is ready

Don't be too fast to drink that poisoned cup. I think at one stage we were down to about 10 Australians at the Raceboard nationals when the IMCO was in the Games - look at the way it's rebounded. In a similar vein, the head of one of the world's biggest foiler associations will tell you the problem that top amateurs suffer when up against top pro foilers.

Just be careful with what you wish for; you may just get it.

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jirvin4505 said..



My son found this on a foiling Facebook group yesterday.
Not sure what to make of it

I think this sort of ultimatum illustrates why the RSX should be taken out of the Olympics as soon as possible and why Pryde shouldn't be used as a supplier again.

www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/10/27/deciding-whats-best-for-the-sport/

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Pacey said..

jirvin4505 said..



My son found this on a foiling Facebook group yesterday.
Not sure what to make of it

I think this sort of ultimatum illustrates why the RSX should be taken out of the Olympics as soon as possible and why Pryde shouldn't be used as a supplier again.

Have any other of the tenders agreed to supply free equipment to Olympic Games plus youth worlds events. It would be very unfair to just impose that expectation on NP alone.

I think it's 300 fully rigged boards

It seems very strange that NZ the epi centre of foilers as I've been told,
have withdrawn from hosting the RSX worlds which have been moved to sorento within 3 months of the event !
That must be great for N P

What a schemozzle! I can't find any information on why Takapuna dropped out, but the Kiwi RSX fleet does appear to be dead. So the pro-RSX forces are making threats and others are breaking contracts (allegedly) and meanwhile confusion reigns. WTH happens to the poor sailors who have tickets to NZ already booked and paid for?

The Windfoilers got 24 to their NZ nats at Takapuna, which is good. But the "class of the future", the foiling Nacra 17s, got 4 Kiwi boats to their nats and the "youth class of the future", the Nacra 15s, got two. At the youth worlds, the Nacra 15 only had three entries from outside Europe and Australasia, which is a major problem since the IOC says that the lack of international spread is pretty much sailing's Number One problem as far as staying in the Games. Meanwhile the venerable 420 is still getting more boats to the youth worlds than the 29er, and of course the Laser and RSX are the most popular of all, so any claims that faster craft attract more kids just don't have any supporting evidence.

What a mess! World Sailing really needs to change its approach and stop believing that if you build it, they will come. And surely doing the best for the Techno kids - and those who pay their bills - has to be a top priority.

NZ has the same Olympic selection as Aust where less is best !
I wonder if Olympic fleets would be larger if that policy was changed ?

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Chris 249 said..
What a schemozzle! I can't find any information on why Takapuna dropped out, but the Kiwi RSX fleet does appear to be dead. So the pro-RSX forces are making threats and others are breaking contracts (allegedly) and meanwhile confusion reigns. WTH happens to the poor sailors who have tickets to NZ already booked and paid for?

The Windfoilers got 24 to their NZ nats at Takapuna, which is good. But the "class of the future", the foiling Nacra 17s, got 4 Kiwi boats to their nats and the "youth class of the future", the Nacra 15s, got two. At the youth worlds, the Nacra 15 only had three entries from outside Europe and Australasia, which is a major problem since the IOC says that the lack of international spread is pretty much sailing's Number One problem as far as staying in the Games. Meanwhile the venerable 420 is still getting more boats to the youth worlds than the 29er, and of course the Laser and RSX are the most popular of all, so any claims that faster craft attract more kids just don't have any supporting evidence.

What a mess! World Sailing really needs to change its approach and stop believing that if you build it, they will come. And surely doing the best for the Techno kids - and those who pay their bills - has to be a top priority.

I bailed out of this forum a while back as it was suggested by one of the main contributors to the thread that I perhaps censor myself so I don't offend another main contributor but after several weeks to reflect on what is being written I'm gunna take the bait again and have my 2 cents worth.

Chris249, I think you are confusing 2 issues. Kids need to learn to walk before they can run. To suggest that faster craft aren't attractive to kids is a bit short sighted, perhaps they just don't have the technical ability, physical capability or strength of will to sail them. Learning to sail is a progression isn't it? Lately I've had the pleasure of sailing around Nathan Outteridge on Lake Macquarie while he's getting coaching on the foiling Nacra. Please trust me he is still learning how to sail that vessel. Young people may not be able to sail a foiling vessel but I'm pretty sure they are keen to try one day.

As a part of my occupation I get to interact with a lot of teen age kids. Since my last post on this thread I have been asking them about the Olympics. Very few of them watch the games at all. Those that do tend to only watch events (when aired) specific to their sport or events in which high profile Aussie athletes participate. At the end of the day using the Olympic games as leverage to lift the profile of a sport (especially a niche sport like windsurfing) with kids or the general population seems very short sighted.

When we think of where the Olympics evolved from and where it is today it isn't hard to see it is all about the money. You can't blame companies/governing bodies involved in the Olympics for looking out for their own interests when the games themselves have evolved into a pure money making venture.

Agree that few people watch Olympic sailing. That's one reason why I don't agree with those who claim that windsurfing will benefit significantly if we put a supposedly more spectacular class in.


I didn't say fast craft don't attract kids. I said simpler, slower, cheaper craft get more kids.

I sail the class that's the second most popular among teens, have had 4 teens, created what was then the only junior windsurfing class and helped run a uni windsurfing club so also have a pretty good idea of what works. I also sail the worlds fastest popular boat, and I see that lots of kids want to come for one ride- and that's it. In contrast, they stick with Laser Radials.

Note that hat unlike most people I've got no reason to be biased since I sail some slow classes and fast ones. I also studied the history of sailing design and its effect on participation rates for a PhD, which shows time and time again that convenience and economy attract more people of all ages than speed.

Learning to sail can be a progression but that does not have to be progressing to faster craft - it can be, and normally is, a progression within slower boats. The progression can be in sailing slower gear better, just as in other sports many people just stick with the same sort of gear but do it better as they progress.

Saying "this is the new and exciting fast class so it should be in the Games" is the same thinking that failed with the Nacra, IMCO, Lechner, RSX, etc etc. We need a more sophisticated evidence-based approach to an extremely complex issue.

The RSX class has enjoyed good participation from females and emerging nations and has from what I understand it's seen as the class that brought Asia into Olympic sailing. It would be a hard act to follow in many respects when you start to look past the 3minutes youtube video's and start to disect the realities.

I saw an article in scuttlebut or somewhere that noted competitive windsurfing was all but dead in AUS and NZ which is why AS has supported the foil option. Its true Olympic Windsurfing (RSX) here is all but dead but is competitive windsurfing dead, Raceboards have been steadily growing and the Windsurfer class has exploded. I can't help but wonder, given the success of the RSX around the world and the evidence of growth in non olympic racing windsurf classes , is it the gear or something else here that is the problem.

Windsurfing is an un-unified fringe part of the fringe sport of sailing. I'd imagine the Olympic movement would be happy to drop it altogether.

The debate about the wildly different types of windsurfing that could be in the Olympics goes to show that whatever is chosen won't be supported by many. I've never understood why Australia in particular rejected the RSX rather than supporting some fast one design gear that can be raced in all conditions.

There's probably a good argument for the gear selected to be the gear raced by the most windsurfers. Scary as it sounds that's quickly becoming the Windsurfer LT.

I also think Aus sailing has no clue. Their focus on olympic pathways and gold medals doesn't seem to translate to increased sailing participation. Our sailors are the best in the world but you won't see any on a cereal box or on TV.

The more kids sailing the better. The gear needs to be cheap, easy, fun and sailing clubs inclusive and willing to use social media/think outside the box to create interest in the sport.

Rant over

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MatStirl said..
Windsurfing is an un-unified fringe part of the fringe sport of sailing. I'd imagine the Olympic movement would be happy to drop it altogether.

The debate about the wildly different types of windsurfing that could be in the Olympics goes to show that whatever is chosen won't be supported by many. I've never understood why Australia in particular rejected the RSX rather than supporting some fast one design gear that can be raced in all conditions.

There's probably a good argument for the gear selected to be the gear raced by the most windsurfers. Scary as it sounds that's quickly becoming the Windsurfer LT.

I also think Aus sailing has no clue. Their focus on olympic pathways and gold medals doesn't seem to translate to increased sailing participation. Our sailors are the best in the world but you won't see any on a cereal box or on TV.

The more kids sailing the better. The gear needs to be cheap, easy, fun and sailing clubs inclusive and willing to use social media/think outside the box to create interest in the sport.

Rant over

Bruce Kendall makes some excellent points here as quoted below. I would add that the IMCO should not have been replaced by the RSX. Now we have the RSX best it stay for now until a cheaper alternative has arrived. Windsurfer LT might have been adversely effected by possible Olympic selection and I love the LT but am glad it was eliminated but why it was eliminated and for what reasons precisely I don't know exactly. Enough said on that. An expensive windfoil choice will lose favour if kitefoiling is cheaper and more acccessible. I don't know that it is but we might face the prospect of kite foiling looker more accessible and cheaper than windfoiling and horrifyingly lose windsurfing from the Olympics if we go down the current path. I hope I am wrong. Windsurfing manufacturers should tender to produce cheaper foiling options and the most popular foiling class can have the option to prove it so before selecting for 2028. I think classes should show popularity and runs on the board before going Olympic. Good examples of this are the Laser and the IMCO for example.

In one manufacturers range a think I counted 60 odd model/size boards a few years ago.

Once upon a time manufacturer just had a slalom, race and wave board.

And before that there was just one board...

Getting consensus to race a single model and have decent fleet numbers is probably now just a pipe dream - except for the LT.

The website Sail-World recently ran an article on the Olympic choice in which it stated that "The driver for the New Zealand and Australian yachting federations (to vote for windfoiling) has been the near-complete abandonment of traditional windsurfing at all levels."

Dear god in heaven, what a bizarrely inaccurate and careless statement. The Techno class is huge internationally, with recent record world title fleets. The RSX got over 200 to the worlds and in many countries is bigger than foiling. The LT is the fastest-selling class in the entire sport of sailing (apart from models) and is out-selling the Laser and Opti combined. Raceboards are resurging in Europe.

How on earth can anyone in the Australian yachting federation think that conventional windsurfing has been "nearly completely abandoned" when the LT nationals had the second-biggest fleet of any national titles in the entire sport?

I'm not saying that the RB or LT should be in the Games in place of foils. The point is the amount of fake news being thrown around, and the effect it must have on where people think the sport is going.

Agreed - a careless and misinformed statement.

Aus Raceboard nationals have been seeing 30+ entrants each year, and as you mentioned, the LT is growing fast and bringing more people back to long board racing.

While the iFoil kit offers impressive performance for skilled sailors, at a cost of about $12K in AU/NZ it is expensive and beyond most peoples budget.

The Glide seems to offer a high quality, affordable, one design class that provides a smooth transition from beginner, to youth and advanced racing at and affordable price. After reading all the proposals, the Glide proposal seemed the most detailed and the only one that thoroughly addressed issues of manufacturing quality and consistency.

I hope the WS evaluation process ensures a fair outcome based on fact and that each proposal is evaluated impartially on its merits according to the stated criteria.

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azuli said..
Agreed - a careless and misinformed statement.

Aus Raceboard nationals have been seeing 30+ entrants each year, and as you mentioned, the LT is growing fast and bringing more people back to long board racing.

While the iFoil kit offers impressive performance for skilled sailors, at a cost of about $12K in AU/NZ it is expensive and beyond most peoples budget.

The Glide seems to offer a high quality, affordable, one design class that provides a smooth transition from beginner, to youth and advanced racing at and affordable price. After reading all the proposals, the Glide proposal seemed the most detailed and the only one that thoroughly addressed issues of manufacturing quality and consistency.

I hope the WS evaluation process ensures a fair outcome based on fact and that each proposal is evaluated impartially on its merits according to the stated criteria.

With a number of types of board just mentioned - there lay the problem. To the uninitiated - and that can even include the sailing community windsurfing is or should be just one type of board.

The Glide looks great but it's just another take on the Mistral Prodigy that the RSX beat as the Olympic gear last time around.

I've got a Prodigy and it's fantastic. So much more fun than the LT but no one sails it.

/\

But different people enjoy different things, so it's hard to call a particular board "better" in terms of how much fun it is to sail. Personally, I thought the Prodigy suffered from terribly high hull drag in the light stuff and an excessively big rig in the strong stuff, and wasn't much fun at any time. A few guys at my old club bought them and then sold them, partly because they were almost always uncompetitive against IMCO 7.4s and 8.5 Raceboards. The board also has its strong points, like stability, but that's not something I care about personally.

However, you obviously like them and that's great. But surely it's a matter of personal taste, so it's not that one board is "more fun" and another board is "less fun".

I would expect the Glide to beat the RSX and the Prodigy in all conditions. I would expect an LT will beat an RSX or a Prodigy around a course in the light stuff ie 5-10 knots. Overall an LT is much more fun that an RSX or a Prodigy. The sales speak for that, the market informs that opinion. The Kona is over 15 years old and is not successful in Australia, never seen one sailing here in WA. The Olympics do not define fun: I sailed Lasers in the early 1980s and they were fun but not as fun as the 1980s Windsurfer One Design nor as fast. The LT today is just as fun if not better. The Olympics will select the new windsurfer board/foil but that will not mean it will be popular as a class , nor guarantee it will be adopted in clubs around Australia and NZ nor fun to sail. I am surprised classes can be invented and then selected for Olympics without global fleets proving sustainability. The iFoil selection is actually granting a monopoly to Starboard without that firm proving its competitive advantage for that class in the market. This factor will lead to higher prices in my opinion to the detriment of the sport.

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RichardG said..
I would expect the Glide to beat the RSX and the Prodigy in all conditions. I would expect an LT will beat an RSX or a Prodigy around a course in the light stuff ie 5-10 knots. Overall an LT is much more fun that an RSX or a Prodigy. The sales speak for that, the market informs that opinion. The Kona is over 15 years old and is not successful in Australia, never seen one sailing here in WA. The Olympics do not define fun: I sailed Lasers in the early 1980s and they were fun but not as fun as the 1980s Windsurfer One Design nor as fast. The LT today is just as fun if not better. The Olympics will select the new windsurfer board/foil but that will not mean it will be popular as a class , nor guarantee it will be adopted in clubs around Australia and NZ nor fun to sail. I am surprised classes can be invented and then selected for Olympics without global fleets proving sustainability. The iFoil selection is actually granting a monopoly to Starboard without that firm proving its competitive advantage for that class in the market. This factor will lead to higher prices in my opinion to the detriment of the sport.

I thought Starboard had agreed to open up the manufacture of the I foil board to other manufacturers after 6 months or so. Is the LT fun to sail in 5 to knots on the race course .? I think you can guarantee that the I foil will be a lot of fun to sail

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AUS 814 said..I thought Starboard had agreed to open up the manufacture of the I foil board to other manufacturers after 6 months or so. Is the LT fun to sail in 5 to knots on the race course .?

RichardG said..
I would expect the Glide to beat the RSX and the Prodigy in all conditions. I would expect an LT will beat an RSX or a Prodigy around a course in the light stuff ie 5-10 knots. Overall an LT is much more fun that an RSX or a Prodigy. The sales speak for that, the market informs that opinion. The Kona is over 15 years old and is not successful in Australia, never seen one sailing here in WA. The Olympics do not define fun: I sailed Lasers in the early 1980s and they were fun but not as fun as the 1980s Windsurfer One Design nor as fast. The LT today is just as fun if not better. The Olympics will select the new windsurfer board/foil but that will not mean it will be popular as a class , nor guarantee it will be adopted in clubs around Australia and NZ nor fun to sail. I am surprised classes can be invented and then selected for Olympics without global fleets proving sustainability. The iFoil selection is actually granting a monopoly to Starboard without that firm proving its competitive advantage for that class in the market. This factor will lead to higher prices in my opinion to the detriment of the sport.

I thought Starboard had agreed to open up the manufacture of the I foil board to other manufacturers after 6 months or so. Is the LT fun to sail in 5 to knots on the race course .?

I don't know anything about the open up to other manufacturers. You assert that, you might be right, but what is the source of your assertion ? Is that likely, how will that work and which version will be faster? Why will other brands join in? What is the commercial incentive? How many units will be sold ?

On the wind I prefer more wind but if you sail in a fleet race on any given Sunday, 5-10 knots last Sunday , with many holes and fluky with a lot of chop from powerboats and ferries that can be, but not always will be the conditions you encounter. You sail and you benefit, Its a workout, you compete, you complete the course against the other LTs tussle with Sharpies, Foiling Moths and others. Its fun and it intensifies life. I did not see any wind foilers out on the Swan River (too light) and infact the LT can beat the foiling Moths in those light fluky conditions.

WooHoo_ IFOIL for Paris

World Sailing's Council moved on to the Equipment Committee's recommendation to select the iFoil as the Men's and Women's Windsurfer Equipment for Paris 2024.
The council approved the selection of the iFoil after 31 members voted in favour with eight against and two abstentions. This decision will now go to World Sailing's Annual General Meeting who will ratify the decision in December.
The Starboard iFoil offers One Design equipment where most components are the same for both genders.At an event a sailor will register:
- one board. Starboard Windsurfing iFoil.
- one Foil. The Starboard Race
- one Fin.
- one Sail (Severne Sails Hyperglide 2. Women = 8m2, Men = 9m2).
- one Mast.
- one Boom.The foil package is, composed of one foil mast, two fuselages, one front and rear wings.

The foil package is, composed of one foil mast, two fuselages, one front and rear wings.The option to replace the foil with a fin offers an alternative for extreme sailing conditions.Thanks to all involved in the iFoil project to make it happen ????.
Foiling is the future of windsurfing and without your efforts we would have kept RS:X for 8 more years...



Thank you Starboard and Severne, this is going to be awesome.

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KA360 said..
WooHoo_ IFOIL for Paris

World Sailing's Council moved on to the Equipment Committee's recommendation to select the iFoil as the Men's and Women's Windsurfer Equipment for Paris 2024.
The council approved the selection of the iFoil after 31 members voted in favour with eight against and two abstentions. This decision will now go to World Sailing's Annual General Meeting who will ratify the decision in December.
The Starboard iFoil offers One Design equipment where most components are the same for both genders.At an event a sailor will register:
- one board. Starboard Windsurfing iFoil.
- one Foil. The Starboard Race
- one Fin.
- one Sail (Severne Sails Hyperglide 2. Women = 8m2, Men = 9m2).
- one Mast.
- one Boom.The foil package is, composed of one foil mast, two fuselages, one front and rear wings.

The foil package is, composed of one foil mast, two fuselages, one front and rear wings.The option to replace the foil with a fin offers an alternative for extreme sailing conditions.Thanks to all involved in the iFoil project to make it happen ????.
Foiling is the future of windsurfing and without your efforts we would have kept RS:X for 8 more years...

Excellent. Is that the 91 cm wide, 95 cm wide or the 100cm wide ?

saw on windsurfing tv tonight that isso in brazil have developed a brazilian one design foil board and sail.

small size for kids and large size for adults.

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RichardG said..

KA360 said..
WooHoo_ IFOIL for Paris

World Sailing's Council moved on to the Equipment Committee's recommendation to select the iFoil as the Men's and Women's Windsurfer Equipment for Paris 2024.
The council approved the selection of the iFoil after 31 members voted in favour with eight against and two abstentions. This decision will now go to World Sailing's Annual General Meeting who will ratify the decision in December.
The Starboard iFoil offers One Design equipment where most components are the same for both genders.At an event a sailor will register:
- one board. Starboard Windsurfing iFoil.
- one Foil. The Starboard Race
- one Fin.
- one Sail (Severne Sails Hyperglide 2. Women = 8m2, Men = 9m2).
- one Mast.
- one Boom.The foil package is, composed of one foil mast, two fuselages, one front and rear wings.

The foil package is, composed of one foil mast, two fuselages, one front and rear wings.The option to replace the foil with a fin offers an alternative for extreme sailing conditions.Thanks to all involved in the iFoil project to make it happen ????.
Foiling is the future of windsurfing and without your efforts we would have kept RS:X for 8 more years...

Excellent. Is that the 91 cm wide, 95 cm wide or the 100cm wide ?

It's 95 wide as per the proposal

Richard you say that Sailing the LT is fun, have you tried wind foiling , serious question

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RichardG said..
I would expect the Glide to beat the RSX and the Prodigy in all conditions. I would expect an LT will beat an RSX or a Prodigy around a course in the light stuff ie 5-10 knots. Overall an LT is much more fun that an RSX or a Prodigy. The sales speak for that, the market informs that opinion. The Kona is over 15 years old and is not successful in Australia, never seen one sailing here in WA. The Olympics do not define fun: I sailed Lasers in the early 1980s and they were fun but not as fun as the 1980s Windsurfer One Design nor as fast. The LT today is just as fun if not better. The Olympics will select the new windsurfer board/foil but that will not mean it will be popular as a class , nor guarantee it will be adopted in clubs around Australia and NZ nor fun to sail. I am surprised classes can be invented and then selected for Olympics without global fleets proving sustainability. The iFoil selection is actually granting a monopoly to Starboard without that firm proving its competitive advantage for that class in the market. This factor will lead to higher prices in my opinion to the detriment of the sport.

I dunno that the market proves what's fun; if that was so then the Laser must be more fun than the One Design because the Laser was more popular over the long term. There's a lot of other factors that go into success. I don't like the Prodigy or RSX but other people do, and how in the world can we LT fans tell them they are wrong? The LT IS inferior to the RSX and Prodigy in some ways and superior in others - surely it is just personal taste which board someone prefers?

Agree with you about the issue of selecting new classes for the Olympics. The new classes selected for the Games over the last few decades were (IIRC) the Tempest yacht, the Elliott yacht, the Nacra, RSX, 49er and the 49erFX. Arguably all have failed to live up to the hype, even the 9ers. So World Sailing is on a 100% failure rate in selecting unproven classes.

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AUS 814 said..
Richard you say that Sailing the LT is fun, have you tried wind foiling , serious question

I know the question isn't directed at me, but what we do know is that even if one class is "more fun", it doesn't necessarily mean that the fun class is better for the Games. The IOC OPC has certain specific criteria for Olympic sports, and sports have to fulfil those criteria.Some classes that were great fun failed at the Games in some ways. Others that are pretty masochistic (like the Finn) were in there for decades.

And who cares if the class is fun for Olympians? The ones who are paid are not paid to have fun - they are paid to get results. Many Olympic fleets are largely under-written by governments, and why should a public servant who is doling out public cash care about what Olympic aspirants happen to enjoy sailing?

What does anyone mean by "more fun"? Some classes can be fun in some ways and f*cking frustrating as hell in others. Some are money pits, some hurt, some are tactical, some are fast.....how can any one person decree which factor over-rides the other? I've foiled years before most windsurfers did, and while it was quite amusing it certainly wasn't fun enough to make up for the downsides for me, but that's purely personal.When there are so many factors and so many different angles to see them from, who can say what is "more fun"?

In the 2019 Tas states sailed in typically 3 to 8 knots the Prodigy kept up with the LT's and was even first across the line in a few races. Once the breeze came the LT takes off and in my opinion is more fun to sail. I have an LT and a Prodigy.

The Olympic movement is all about staying relevant and testing athletes to the limit. They will probably lean toward the new age type gear such as foiling and the RSX before that. My guess is foiling will remain fringe perhaps even more so than the RSX because it is not suited to the masses.

We are pretty fortunate that windsurfing is in the Olympics at all given our limited numbers spread across various equipment. Most of us don't even race around the bouys.

While the LT is the most prominant in Tassie you can rock up and race anything which is a good thing.

Yippeee. I'll be watching an Olympic event for the first time in a decade.