www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/10/02/paris-2024-to-foil-or-not-to-foil/

usawindsurfing.wordpress.com/2019/10/03/usa-now-qualified-for-a-spot-at-tokyo-2020-in-both-men-and-womens-windsurfing-2024-olympic-equipment-selection-preview/

A little insight (as much as permitted) by a participant in the trials. More to come shortly, I assume.

www.facebook.com/worldsailingofficial/videos/657086064815900/

SURVEY RESULTS



STARBOARD/SEVERNE are supporting all 3 foiling proposals !

Hmmm, 10,000 Euro. That sounds an affordable solution???

These prices will make it even more unpopular and unsuccessful in Australia than the RSX has been in Australia. It is very sad. I can't see yacht clubs/sailing clubs taking up these Olympic classes in significant numbers unless the members involved have deep pockets after paying membership fees. I might be wrong. Olympic yachting should be in reach of good yachtsmen and women. At present most Olympic classes are just way too expensive for a lot of people to aspire to.Yachting needs to be an inclusive sport not a financially exclusive one....for Olympic windsurfing, especially so !

Survey results LOL

Geez why so hung up on the price. A new laser costs about $12,500 AUD, I guess a new 49er would be approaching 30 grand and similar for the foiling Nacra. Windfoil looks pretty cheap when compared to these classes. It's not always dependant on clubs backing up the classes , how many clubs race the 470 dinghy ??. I think for the price of the windfoil many younger windsurfers would see it as quite attractive.

Well the laser sailors got upset when they tried to update the class and price.
They got so upset they voted the changes down LOL

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AUS 814 said..
Geez why so hung up on the price. A new laser costs about $12,500 AUD, I guess a new 49er would be approaching 30 grand and similar for the foiling Nacra. Windfoil looks pretty cheap when compared to these classes. It's not always dependant on clubs backing up the classes , how many clubs race the 470 dinghy ??. I think for the price of the windfoil many younger windsurfers would see it as quite attractive.

1- only a small proportion of Laser sailors spend $12500. Even rich kids normally start off with cheap Lasers

2- Windsurfing's spot in the Olympics rests largely on its economy.

3- The Nacra and 49er are not very popular at all. The windsurfer, on the other hand, relies largely on its popularity for its Olympic spot.

4-, Add GST and freight to that price and the two person Nacra and 49er start looking good.

5 - People were complaining that there were no national RSX fleets so the foiler must be capable of building up strong national fleets or be subject to the same criticism. How many Aussie windsurfing kids have $20k?

Oh yes, and I think last time around the sailors voted for the RSX and people said it would make hybrids popular. If the process failed once, why will it work now?

The foil or the RSX are in my opinion the best contenders for the Olympic spot at this time, although the cost may be around that 10,000 euro mark. As stated before sailors like tommy slingsby are more than happy to blow a similar amount of money on a new laser.

People don't have to start windsurfing on a foil, everyone that windsurfs has learnt on a board that is bare bones and slowly move up to more complex and more expensive prices of kit

its the same with sailing, most junior sailors start on an opti, gain those basic skills needed then move to another boat like a flying 11 or a cheaper laser. Then once they feel their skill level is high enough they buy their 49ers or Nacra 17s


you start on your cheap board (usually your mum or dads LT) then you move onto a techno and then as your sailing skill increases and you start to possibly age out you switch to the likes of RSX, Raceboard and Foiling

Sure tommy slingsby May spend 12500 on a new laser and a normal sailor can't but that normal sailor isn't going to the olympics or sailing in a world title

not everyone is going to the olympics (suprise!) so not everyone needs to buy a foil, they may just be happy to plod around on their LT and that's there choice but the likes of Dorian who is most likely going to the olympics will be able to and willing to fork out that 10,000 Euros to compete on the worlds biggest stage

p.s. a new RSX and a 9.5 kit is around $10,000 what's stopping people from saving for another 6 months and buying a good foil kit????

None of the classes chosen for the testing will survive or start with out the Olympics !

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BenWaters said..
The foil or the RSX are in my opinion the best contenders for the Olympic spot at this time, although the cost may be around that 10,000 euro mark. As stated before sailors like tommy slingsby are more than happy to blow a similar amount of money on a new laser.

People don't have to start windsurfing on a foil, everyone that windsurfs has learnt on a board that is bare bones and slowly move up to more complex and more expensive prices of kit

its the same with sailing, most junior sailors start on an opti, gain those basic skills needed then move to another boat like a flying 11 or a cheaper laser. Then once they feel their skill level is high enough they buy their 49ers or Nacra 17s


you start on your cheap board (usually your mum or dads LT) then you move onto a techno and then as your sailing skill increases and you start to possibly age out you switch to the likes of RSX, Raceboard and Foiling

Sure tommy slingsby May spend 12500 on a new laser and a normal sailor can't but that normal sailor isn't going to the olympics or sailing in a world title

not everyone is going to the olympics (suprise!) so not everyone needs to buy a foil, they may just be happy to plod around on their LT and that's there choice but the likes of Dorian who is most likely going to the olympics will be able to and willing to fork out that 10,000 Euros to compete on the worlds biggest stage

p.s. a new RSX and a 9.5 kit is around $10,000 what's stopping people from saving for another 6 months and buying a good foil kit????

Tom didn't start on a $12500 Laser. His first Laser was 15000 boats older than the new ones - and yet he got to learn his trade against big fleets for not many bucks. There's not much chance of that with this class.

And most kids don't go from Lasers to Nacras or 49ers - look at the fleet sizes.

You're also ignoring the fact that price matters a lot more in poorer countries, and one of the big reasons windsurfing is in the Games is because those countries can afford to get Olympic windsurfers. If we ignore those countries then why will they bother to keep up with Olympic windsurfing?

Have you looked at the IOC OPC criteria?

Yeah Benassi, have you even looked at the IOC OPC criteria and what would you know about what kids want to sail, Get a LT under you and stop being a nube.

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cammd said..
Yeah Benassi, have you even looked at the IOC OPC criteria and what would you know about what kids want to sail, Get a LT under you and stop being a nube.

????? None of us claimed we were experts in what the kids want to sail, nor do most LT sailors want the class to be in the Olympics - the nomination was a publicity move.

And seriously, we are talking about an Olympic class. Obviously what the International OIympic Committee wants must be a factor in its selection. Are you saying we should ignore what the "customer" wants? Why shouldn't we find out what they want before we decide what they should have?

Personally I think the RSX should stay in for a while, although I've never liked it. If a type is going to be popular enough for the Olympics then it will be popular before it's chosen. And the vital thing is that the Olympics can distort a class so much that it could be better for foiling if it wasn't in the Games.

As a Raceboard sailor, were you around when the IMCO was in the Games? I was racing them then, and it was striking that the Raceboard class was probably at its worst position ever when a Raceboard was the Olympic class - just as D2s and Windgliders collapsed after they were selected and just as the LT would have collapsed if it had been selected. Olympic selection can curse a class, so don't assume we are against a class because we are against it being in the Games.

Starboard iFoil wins new.myliveregatta.com/files/65/2024%20Windsurfer%20Evaluation%20Worling%20Party%20paper.pdf

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Chris 249 said..
As a Raceboard sailor, were you around when the IMCO was in the Games? I was racing them then, and it was striking that the Raceboard class was probably at its worst position ever when a Raceboard was the Olympic class

In my neighborhood, Olympics didn't kill the IMCO, boards wider than 70cm did. Prior to that, a board like the IMCO, Equipe, Lightning, etc was the ticket for most fun on the water in 8-20 mph. Planed about as early as anything , fast and user friendly around the race course, and, about as good as most boards available to teach someone on. If someone was starting out, they could get an IMCO, and it would check most of the rec windsurfer's boxes.

Suddenly, you had wider slalom boards and freeride boards like the Go (especially the Go) that were more stable - it was easier to learn on, could carry a bigger sail if desired and beat the pants off raceboards in 10-20 for freeriding. I remember well the first wide board (and looking back, it wasn't even that wide) in the neighborhood spanking me and my Equipe II in a freeride session. Raceboards still ruled the roost in light air racing (and still do here) but, increasingly, the avg windsurfer wanted to be planing and enjoying the afternoon. Raceboards were bigger, heavier, harder to transport and, outside the occasional regatta, a redundant piece of gear.

Blast from the past (1999): www.americanwindsurfer.com/articles/short-wide/

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hardie said..
Starboard iFoil wins new.myliveregatta.com/files/65/2024%20Windsurfer%20Evaluation%20Worling%20Party%20paper.pdf

well done ifoil!

I was just trolling a bit, I thought the Glide submission made some really goods points re affordability however it involves everyone dumping there existing gear which is not really affordable. Not super keen on a 8.5mtr rig, I think thats to small for mens course racing. Looking forward to seeing some Glides at the RB Nationals in January.

The RSX submission seemed solid with a proven track record in delivering good competition over many years but I don't disagree that it's maybe time for a change and update.

Out of the foilers I thought the windfoil1 was the weakest of the three. So expensive, whats the point of a one design board only, and the claims about everyone is foiling now and other classes are stuck in the past and foiling is delivering a revival in windsurfing are just BS. I have seen existing windsurfers take up foiling, I have seen existing windsurf racers take up windfoil racing, I haven't seen a huge number of new people racing because of windfoils.

Formula foil seems like a great class to me, I was a formula fan as well but being Olympic and not One Design may be a recipe for disaster. Bruce Kendall's spoke some word's of wisdom that should be taken heed of I think.

The ifoil looks like the best foiling option as its One Design, I have serious doubts about Starboard as an Olympic supplier, thats based on my direct experience of there inability to even supply a spare gasket for a Phantom.

So really I have no idea what should happen

Don'y forget that Starboard did an excellent job supporting the Raceboard World Championships held at RQ in 2016.

From what I can see the iFoil, the best foiling one design, the cheapest foiling option with capacity for sailing on the fin, was chosen. Even so, it will not be cheap to buy, to get race ready class legal kit, relative to other non-class foiling and fin options, including secondhand. Sailors will have other options and in smaller countries like Australia I doubt take up will be significant, but I hope I am wrong. I hope it achieves greater popularity and bigger racing fleets , local and national, in Australia, than the RSX. How many people are putting in orders now ?

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Paducah said..

Chris 249 said..
As a Raceboard sailor, were you around when the IMCO was in the Games? I was racing them then, and it was striking that the Raceboard class was probably at its worst position ever when a Raceboard was the Olympic class

In my neighborhood, Olympics didn't kill the IMCO, boards wider than 70cm did. Prior to that, a board like the IMCO, Equipe, Lightning, etc was the ticket for most fun on the water in 8-20 mph. Planed about as early as anything , fast and user friendly around the race course, and, about as good as most boards available to teach someone on. If someone was starting out, they could get an IMCO, and it would check most of the rec windsurfer's boxes.

Suddenly, you had wider slalom boards and freeride boards like the Go (especially the Go) that were more stable - it was easier to learn on, could carry a bigger sail if desired and beat the pants off raceboards in 10-20 for freeriding. I remember well the first wide board (and looking back, it wasn't even that wide) in the neighborhood spanking me and my Equipe II in a freeride session. Raceboards still ruled the roost in light air racing (and still do here) but, increasingly, the avg windsurfer wanted to be planing and enjoying the afternoon. Raceboards were bigger, heavier, harder to transport and, outside the occasional regatta, a redundant piece of gear.

Blast from the past (1999): www.americanwindsurfer.com/articles/short-wide/

Still the 2019 Raceboard worlds attracted over 70 entrants just in the mens division alone with separate numbers in the youth and womens. Still popular by any measure, it seems.

worlds2019.raceboard.org

Anyway foiling kites can beat windsurfers around the course including foiling windsurfers. I accept your comments above, but that doesn't mean racing raceboard windsurfers is not worthwhile and tactically rewarding. Racing around a course by average windsurfers is quite different to up and down sailing by average windsurfers. I wonder what is the best tactical windsurf racing amongst all the classes available to windsurfers ?

Sadly the IMCO stopped being built, despite the fact, in my opinion, it is a much better board than the RSX. Today they represent a cheap and still exciting board to sail. I would be surprised if the RSX attracts the interest of enthusiasts in the future following its Olympic demise.

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RichardG said..

Paducah said..

Chris 249 said..
As a Raceboard sailor, were you around when the IMCO was in the Games? I was racing them then, and it was striking that the Raceboard class was probably at its worst position ever when a Raceboard was the Olympic class

In my neighborhood, Olympics didn't kill the IMCO, boards wider than 70cm did. Prior to that, a board like the IMCO, Equipe, Lightning, etc was the ticket for most fun on the water in 8-20 mph. Planed about as early as anything , fast and user friendly around the race course, and, about as good as most boards available to teach someone on. If someone was starting out, they could get an IMCO, and it would check most of the rec windsurfer's boxes.

Suddenly, you had wider slalom boards and freeride boards like the Go (especially the Go) that were more stable - it was easier to learn on, could carry a bigger sail if desired and beat the pants off raceboards in 10-20 for freeriding. I remember well the first wide board (and looking back, it wasn't even that wide) in the neighborhood spanking me and my Equipe II in a freeride session. Raceboards still ruled the roost in light air racing (and still do here) but, increasingly, the avg windsurfer wanted to be planing and enjoying the afternoon. Raceboards were bigger, heavier, harder to transport and, outside the occasional regatta, a redundant piece of gear.

Blast from the past (1999): www.americanwindsurfer.com/articles/short-wide/

Still the 2019 Raceboard worlds attracted over 70 entrants just in the mens division alone with separate numbers in the youth and womens. Still popular by any measure, it seems.

worlds2019.raceboard.org

Anyway foiling kites can beat windsurfers around the course including foiling windsurfers. I accept your comments above, but that doesn't mean racing raceboard windsurfers is not worthwhile and tactically rewarding. Racing around a course by average windsurfers is quite different to up and down sailing by average windsurfers. I wonder what is the best tactical windsurf racing amongst all the classes available to windsurfers ?

Sadly the IMCO stopped being built, despite the fact, in my opinion, it is a much better board than the RSX. Today they represent a cheap and still exciting board to sail. I would be surprised if the RSX attracts the interest of enthusiasts in the future following its Olympic demise.

Point taken. Perhaps a better way to have expressed it was that the "Go generation" caused people to elect to buy and recreationally sail wider boards which diminished raceboard sales and use. This severely affected the sales of new raceboards to the point it became a difficult market to sustain. When we race locally, 80-95% of the boards are vintage raceboards, Konas, etc. What we rarely see is a newer raceboard (ie Phantom) because they can be twice or more as expensive as a freeride wide board. I'm not saying raceboards are dead but that the IMCO suffered much more from the Go than it did from Olympics inclusion. Ironically, imho, what ultimately killed the IMCO was probably the RS:X.

I own a raceboard and likely will until my estate sale - I think they are fun. However, 98% of my windsurfing is on something generally wider and/or 1.5 meters shorter. I can foil in 8-10. My next custom foilboard will be almost half the cost of what a new raceboard runs here. The math and other considerations are challenging for raceboards.

The decline of windsurfing started with the go generation LOL

Paducah, in Oz I think the "casual" or "leisure" use of RBs stopped before they got into the Olympics; they were pretty much only a racing class. But the numbers were definitely smaller at the tail end of the IMCO era than they were before the IMCO was selected, and the numbers today are larger than they were when the IMCO was in the Games. The latter part of the era when the IMCO was in the Olympics was the low point for Raceboarding.

Even in Lasers, many people in the "Olympic age" group dropped out when the class became Olympic because they knew they would be uncompetitive against the full timers. The class is now overwhelmingly made up of juniors, youth and Masters.

The page in the WF1 proposal that shows the number of Starboard foiling boards out there is a bit of a worry, because while foiling is great, if that's the future and there's only 260 such boards in the entire world, then our sport really has become pretty tiny.

so is steve allen going to represent australia. he would have to be our most experienced with runs on the board.

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Gestalt said..
so is steve allen going to represent australia. he would have to be our most experienced with runs on the board.

Isn't he a Polesurfer ?

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Chris 249 said..
Paducah, in Oz I think the "casual" or "leisure" use of RBs stopped before they got into the Olympics; they were pretty much only a racing class. But the numbers were definitely smaller at the tail end of the IMCO era than they were before the IMCO was selected, and the numbers today are larger than they were when the IMCO was in the Games. The latter part of the era when the IMCO was in the Olympics was the low point for Raceboarding.

Even in Lasers, many people in the "Olympic age" group dropped out when the class became Olympic because they knew they would be uncompetitive against the full timers. The class is now overwhelmingly made up of juniors, youth and Masters.

The page in the WF1 proposal that shows the number of Starboard foiling boards out there is a bit of a worry, because while foiling is great, if that's the future and there's only 260 such boards in the entire world, then our sport really has become pretty tiny.

I wouldn't be worried abouit the Starboard numbers. That's just one brand in an otherwise open field. If you totalled the number of race oriented boards and included larger brands like Fanatic, JP and smaller ones like FMX, Patrik, RRD, Exocet, etc, the number will be comfortably bigger. Not to mention how many top level foilers are using existing Formula boards.

The positive aspect of an Olympic foil board is that it will be the first time in 15 years that we'll have an Olympic board that one might actually want to freeride and not be absurdly expensive.

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Paducah said..

Chris 249 said..
Paducah, in Oz I think the "casual" or "leisure" use of RBs stopped before they got into the Olympics; they were pretty much only a racing class. But the numbers were definitely smaller at the tail end of the IMCO era than they were before the IMCO was selected, and the numbers today are larger than they were when the IMCO was in the Games. The latter part of the era when the IMCO was in the Olympics was the low point for Raceboarding.

Even in Lasers, many people in the "Olympic age" group dropped out when the class became Olympic because they knew they would be uncompetitive against the full timers. The class is now overwhelmingly made up of juniors, youth and Masters.

The page in the WF1 proposal that shows the number of Starboard foiling boards out there is a bit of a worry, because while foiling is great, if that's the future and there's only 260 such boards in the entire world, then our sport really has become pretty tiny.

I wouldn't be worried abouit the Starboard numbers. That's just one brand in an otherwise open field. If you totalled the number of race oriented boards and included larger brands like Fanatic, JP and smaller ones like FMX, Patrik, RRD, Exocet, etc, the number will be comfortably bigger. Not to mention how many top level foilers are using existing Formula boards.

The positive aspect of an Olympic foil board is that it will be the first time in 15 years that we'll have an Olympic board that one might actually want to freeride and not be absurdly expensive.

Yes, but even if that "comfortably bigger" number is say 5 times what SB has sold AND there are twice as many people on existing boards, it's still not really a major sailing class, or a big Olympic sport.

I had expected there'd be more and some people in the industry are saying that there is very strong demand for foiling, but on the other hand when I spent about 10 days at Lake Garda this European summer, it was apparent that there were normally only about 4-8 foilers out most of the time when the breeze blew. The other thing that struck me was the age of the slalom boards that most people were sailing, so it seems as if most Euros are not upgrading their windsurfing kit very often.

I would still reckon that the sailing characteristics and the extremely high standard of sailing is going to keep many people out of the class; in other foiling sailing classes you see good sailors on top quality gear get lapped in a two-lap race, and that turns many of them off. On the plus side, we may be able to pick up ex-Olympic gear fairly cheaply which could be fun.