Select to expand quote

MatStirl said..
My guess is unless most support the olympic kit (unlikely due to cost and/or our fascination with the latest and greatest) foil racing will be just like Formula before it.

It will be sailed on uneven gear, be an arms race to some extent and suit the fitter, more devoted types. For that reason it will not have big fleets.

With little promotion and no Olympic pathway I have been amazed at the take up of the LT - in Tasmania at least. There is a lot to be said for cheap, easy to use one design gear to build fleet numbers.

With kids I don't have too much time but want to have the odd race around the cans and a few beers afterwards. LT suits that purpose and use the short board when the winds up.

Also plan to stick a small sail on it at the local club and offer to kids to try. If I can get just one kid into windsurfer I will be satisfied.

It'd be great to see the small sail and youth sailing getting promoted in Tassy; I got the earlier 4.5 and 3.5s created by Barracouta Sails when I was running the association and we ran short "Junior One Design" course racing in the mornings at the nationals and states. The good kids would also race with the adults in the afternoon. We quickly got fleets of up to 15 kids racing; many of them also top dinghy sailors. Some went on to do the Youth Worlds on boards, others went on to win nationals and an Olympic trials in boats, then it all sort of petered out for a while when those of us who were pushing it moved on. Now with the LT, even big yacht clubs are buying boards for juniors to use. In Europe they are keen to push the LT as the class for the many kids who come out of Techno but don't want to go for the Olympic class and don't want to, or cannot, sail shortboards due to their location; we can push the same angle here.

Select to expand quote

PaulUK said..
That's a good point. The original RSX protos were reportedly much lighter and better performing (as were the ill fated RSX Evos). The beef up occurred after selection, and we know the result... yet the intense usage still apparently causes many failures.

What might have been... Publication date June, 2016

I am thinking foils will be no different to other course racing classes in regards to bodyweights and pumping ability. In a recent lightwind club race the gap between first and second foil to the top mark on the first upwind was 1.45, a pretty huge margin and that was down to bodyweight and ability to pump the foil onto the plane (so to speak). The guy in second is no slouch either, he has a number of Australian titles in Raceboards and Formula.

In another very lightwind clubrace, the same foiler (racing against raceboards) was physically stuffed trying to match the raceboards upwind. That was due to having to do massive tacks ( low upwind angles in the really light stuff) and pump it up onto the foil each tack.

The point I am making is I think Olympic sailors will need to remain just as fit and lean on a foil as they were on an RSX. The guys that can get on the foil faster or sail them deeper etc will have an advantage and that will mean pumping them around a course in lightwinds.

Select to expand quote

cammd said..
The point I am making is I think Olympic sailors will need to remain just as fit and lean on a foil as they were on an RSX. The guys that can get on the foil faster or sail them deeper etc will have an advantage and that will mean pumping them around a course in lightwinds.

As it should be. I'd hate to see Olympic cycling or the 100 m dash if fitness weren't required.

Curlers on the other hand...

The iFoil decision is such enormous news I find it still hard to fully unpack.
I think expecting to see a sudden change in the qualities that make a windsurfing athlete was a mistake made when introducing the RS:X too.
No amount of gear innovation will make the serious competitor put aside the % gains he can achieve through being fit and well sized for the class. Beyond that, I doubt any gear innovation will greatly reduce the disparity between those at a professional level and the average sailor around the same course, the time on water difference is often simply immense.
I'm excited by the potential for alternative gear manufacturers, I think this will be a definite step up from the experience of racing RS:X with spare parts being a long way away.
Most concerning personally is how the iFoil concept is going to handle the various racing formats suggested in the tender, including the suggestion that sailors will be making a switch from foil to fin at one time or another within the course racing formats.

Select to expand quote

cammd said..
I am thinking foils will be no different to other course racing classes in regards to bodyweights and pumping ability. In a recent lightwind club race the gap between first and second foil to the top mark on the first upwind was 1.45, a pretty huge margin and that was down to bodyweight and ability to pump the foil onto the plane (so to speak). The guy in second is no slouch either, he has a number of Australian titles in Raceboards and Formula.

In another very lightwind clubrace, the same foiler (racing against raceboards) was physically stuffed trying to match the raceboards upwind. That was due to having to do massive tacks ( low upwind angles in the really light stuff) and pump it up onto the foil each tack.

The point I am making is I think Olympic sailors will need to remain just as fit and lean on a foil as they were on an RSX. The guys that can get on the foil faster or sail them deeper etc will have an advantage and that will mean pumping them around a course in lightwinds.

You were physically stuffed too that day

Select to expand quote

jusavina said..

cammd said..
I am thinking foils will be no different to other course racing classes in regards to bodyweights and pumping ability. In a recent lightwind club race the gap between first and second foil to the top mark on the first upwind was 1.45, a pretty huge margin and that was down to bodyweight and ability to pump the foil onto the plane (so to speak). The guy in second is no slouch either, he has a number of Australian titles in Raceboards and Formula.

In another very lightwind clubrace, the same foiler (racing against raceboards) was physically stuffed trying to match the raceboards upwind. That was due to having to do massive tacks ( low upwind angles in the really light stuff) and pump it up onto the foil each tack.

The point I am making is I think Olympic sailors will need to remain just as fit and lean on a foil as they were on an RSX. The guys that can get on the foil faster or sail them deeper etc will have an advantage and that will mean pumping them around a course in lightwinds.

You were physically stuffed too that day

I am everyday, and the day after as well

Select to expand quote

StaySheetedOn said............Most concerning personally is how the iFoil concept is going to handle the various racing formats suggested in the tender, including the suggestion that sailors will be making a switch from foil to fin at one time or another within the course racing formats.

There is a belief espoused by Antonio Cozzolino (top NZ RSX and also foiler) that they will never use the fin.

Select to expand quote

RichardG said..

StaySheetedOn said............Most concerning personally is how the iFoil concept is going to handle the various racing formats suggested in the tender, including the suggestion that sailors will be making a switch from foil to fin at one time or another within the course racing formats.

There is a belief espoused by Antonio Cozzolino (top NZ RSX and also foiler) that they will never use the fin.

If the weather has gone so cray-cray that they're considering using a fin, some of the other classes will be witnessing carnage on the water. The fin is a backstop for high wind conditions like seen in Costa Brava this summer. I would agree that the top level will never likely use them but they may be used in regattas/training where the skill level isn't up to holding on to a 9.0/foil in 30+. Plus a convertible board may have both broader appeal and better second hand resale.

Select to expand quote

RichardG said..

There is a belief espoused by Antonio Cozzolino (top NZ RSX and also foiler) that they will never use the fin.

...and everyone else.

How does de-powering a Ifoil happen? Is it the same as windsurfing?

If, as an example, it's 18 knots, I'm not using a 9m on my foil. I'm using a 7m or 6.2m and I'm 85kg. which is ~10kg heavier than Olympic race weight.

Can the Hypreglide have massive downhaul and outhaul applied to kill the power?

Yep, sheet out

Select to expand quote

brynoz said..
How does de-powering a Ifoil happen? Is it the same as windsurfing?

If, as an example, it's 18 knots, I'm not using a 9m on my foil. I'm using a 7m or 6.2m and I'm 85kg. which is ~10kg heavier than Olympic race weight.

Can the Hypreglide have massive downhaul and outhaul applied to kill the power?

Go more upwind/deeper downwind depending on which leg you are sailing. In my brief experience in racing (my resume has all of two lines), even a rec punter like me can hold down an extra couple of meters of sail because of the angles. If it can be avoided, just don't bear off to a reach, though... Upwind/downwind racing is a different animal compared to what a lot of us do on a daily basis.

Six months ago, I would have absolutely agreed with you. Somewhere on here is a post I'd like to edit.

Select to expand quote

brynoz said..
How does de-powering a Ifoil happen? Is it the same as windsurfing?

If, as an example, it's 18 knots, I'm not using a 9m on my foil. I'm using a 7m or 6.2m and I'm 85kg. which is ~10kg heavier than Olympic race weight.

Can the Hypreglide have massive downhaul and outhaul applied to kill the power?

I am quite amazed at the range of use that racing foil equipment gets. Just yesterday, a friend of mine, good but with no racing experience, out with Starboard 177, F4 foil, NP Flight 7.0 in total control while three other wind foilers on Slingshot/Moses were up and going with a 4.0/4.3. It an observation unrelated to racing, but it might point to the versatility of foils and the control that can be achieved with racing foiling equipment.

I fully realize and agree that the physicality will be very high in any Olympic event, as it should be.

I'm talking about people racing at the lower levels. My observation is that everyone on RBs has to pump to be competitive, even in local races. But foiling it doesn't seem to be as necessary to be fast compared to just sailing clean. Also the faster tacking on foils does lead to needing to be very aggressive to tack on top of someone.

Yea ok. Make sense. The sheeting out. I am yet to try high wind with a large sail foiling. And I am yet to see it online under race conditions. Typically it is not part off the marketing package we see. We see 8 to 18 knots not 18 to 28 knots. But presumably it must of been addressed in submission and/or will need to be because a 9.0 with a Foil at 15 knots would be the limit right?

Select to expand quote

Grantmac said..
I fully realize and agree that the physicality will be very high in any Olympic event, as it should be.

I'm talking about people racing at the lower levels. My observation is that everyone on RBs has to pump to be competitive, even in local races. But foiling it doesn't seem to be as necessary to be fast compared to just sailing clean. Also the faster tacking on foils does lead to needing to be very aggressive to tack on top of someone.

Faster tacking on foils ? I'm yet to see any videos of a foil tack !

Select to expand quote

brynoz said..
Yea ok. Make sense. The sheeting out. I am yet to try high wind with a large sail foiling. And I am yet to see it online under race conditions. Typically it is not part off the marketing package we see. We see 8 to 18 knots not 18 to 28 knots. But presumably it must of been addressed in submission and/or will need to be because a 9.0 with a Foil at 15 knots would be the limit right?

I have seen them in 25+ with that size sail on, well I saw them at the start line, after that they disappeared.

Select to expand quote

windsufering said..

Grantmac said..
I fully realize and agree that the physicality will be very high in any Olympic event, as it should be.

I'm talking about people racing at the lower levels. My observation is that everyone on RBs has to pump to be competitive, even in local races. But foiling it doesn't seem to be as necessary to be fast compared to just sailing clean. Also the faster tacking on foils does lead to needing to be very aggressive to tack on top of someone.

Faster tacking on foils ? I'm yet to see any videos of a foil tack !

Foil tack no, but the extra lift surface means you enter and exit the tack a lot faster than any other form of "normal" gear will do for you.

some of the pros are pretty much planing out of tacks on foil gear.

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

windsufering said..

Grantmac said..
I fully realize and agree that the physicality will be very high in any Olympic event, as it should be.

I'm talking about people racing at the lower levels. My observation is that everyone on RBs has to pump to be competitive, even in local races. But foiling it doesn't seem to be as necessary to be fast compared to just sailing clean. Also the faster tacking on foils does lead to needing to be very aggressive to tack on top of someone.

Faster tacking on foils ? I'm yet to see any videos of a foil tack !

Foil tack no, but the extra lift surface means you enter and exit the tack a lot faster than any other form of "normal" gear will do for you.

some of the pros are pretty much planing out of tacks on foil gear.

Ok so port starts will be very popular, one tack to get around top mark ?

Select to expand quote

windsufering said..
Ok so port starts will be very popular, one tack to get around top mark ?

yep , and with a gate at the top mark one tack off a starboard start too , pretty cool eh .

Select to expand quote

Hydrofoil windsurfing- not only the Olympic future, maybe the future for all sailors.. @starboardwindsurfing @starboard_foils

www.facebook.com/171689849571460/videos/1442812382553083/

Select to expand quote

fjdoug said..

windsufering said..
Ok so port starts will be very popular, one tack to get around top mark ?

yep , and with a gate at the top mark one tack off a starboard start too , pretty cool eh .

It's what people want , The kites are more tactical now LOL

Select to expand quote

windsufering said..

It's what people want , The kites are more tactical now LOL

Bang'n the corners, it's the foiling way Also consider we do 16-18+ knots UPWIND, think about it. Given you've probably never sailed let alone raced a foil you have zero comprehension of what tactical options are involved, I reckon stick to sailing SUPS with 40 year old rigs ^_^

Select to expand quote

CJW said..Bang'n the corners, it's the foiling way Also consider we do 16-18+ knots UPWIND, think about it. Given you've probably never sailed let alone raced a foil you have zero comprehension of what tactical options are involved, I reckon stick to sailing SUPS with 40 year old rigs ^_^

windsufering said..

It's what people want , The kites are more tactical now LOL

Bang'n the corners, it's the foiling way Also consider we do 16-18+ knots UPWIND, think about it. Given you've probably never sailed let alone raced a foil you have zero comprehension of what tactical options are involved, I reckon stick to sailing SUPS with 40 year old rigs ^_^

CJW. The foil racing interests many. How big are the fleets you are racing in ? Are they one design ? Are you racing out of a yacht club or sailing club? How frequently do you race ? How long are the races ? What wind strengths are you racing in ? What are the weights of the 3 top places ? What are the gaps between sailors? Thanks.

Select to expand quote

CJW said..

windsufering said..

It's what people want , The kites are more tactical now LOL

Bang'n the corners, it's the foiling way Also consider we do 16-18+ knots UPWIND, think about it. Given you've probably never sailed let alone raced a foil you have zero comprehension of what tactical options are involved, I reckon stick to sailing SUPS with 40 year old rigs ^_^

Please tell me what the tactics are, I hope it's more than staying on the foils ?
i will be honest with you I have never seen a foil race !
please tell me where the large fleets are, edit fleets are (more than 3)

Select to expand quote

windsufering said..

Subsonic said..

windsufering said..

Grantmac said..
I fully realize and agree that the physicality will be very high in any Olympic event, as it should be.

I'm talking about people racing at the lower levels. My observation is that everyone on RBs has to pump to be competitive, even in local races. But foiling it doesn't seem to be as necessary to be fast compared to just sailing clean. Also the faster tacking on foils does lead to needing to be very aggressive to tack on top of someone.

Faster tacking on foils ? I'm yet to see any videos of a foil tack !

Foil tack no, but the extra lift surface means you enter and exit the tack a lot faster than any other form of "normal" gear will do for you.

some of the pros are pretty much planing out of tacks on foil gear.

Ok so port starts will be very popular, one tack to get around top mark ?

Have you ever been on a race course?

it doesn't sound like it.

When it comes down to it windsurfing is still in the Olympics - That's the main thing.

The Olympic movement clearly are after the visual appeal of foiling rather than large fleet numbers etc. Let's face it sailing is boring to watch and complicated to everyone apart from other sailors.

I maintain that foiling will be even more fringe than the RSX. At least the RSX could be sailed in very light winds and was versatile. That said I can see why people like foiling.

Ironic that the emerging and Olympic class is foiling and at other end of spectrum the booming class is LT.

While we continue to be fragmented our sport will never return to the popularity of the 80's or 90's.

Bagging other forms of windsurfing is pretty dumb.

Looking forward to the i foil joining Sail Melbourne so I can see for my self !
hopefully the AWA doesn't schedule any events on the same time and gets behind the i foil and let it grow !
it would be great to get some more Aust sailboard Olympians.

Great video showing Olympic v's PWA windsurfing