The reality is open foiling will grow but not necessarily Olympic one design foiling. I would like to think we can expect growth in one design race foiling in clubs in Australia but at the prices quoted in Euro (exc GST) I have my doubts. I own a JP 150 Hydrofoil and a foil and foil sail. I don't believe I will buy a one design foiling board which will be out of date in a year or so. I would love to race a foil but the chances are it won't be one design. Therein lies one of the problems (not the only one) which will effect uptake. Clubs around Australia are buying LTs for their juniors to sail- cheap and fun to race. I doubt it is feasible to buy one design foils particularly for open foiling enthusiasts.

I'm waiting for the RS:X LT to be released in 20 years.

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jusavina said..
I'm waiting for the RS:X LT to be released in 20 years.

You will be waiting for an infinite number of years.

My specific location is Seattle, WA. A light wind area where before foils came along there simply wasn't any options besides RB or occasionally Formula. We have the longest running, if not particularly large, race series in North America if I remember correctly. It has traditionally been dominated by RBs, some rare nights Formula would be competitive. Now it's at least 50% foils and a lot of people with no interest in RBs are coming out to race, still more are freesailing in Seattle who would have instead traveled to the Gorge every weekend.

RSX has absolutely no appeal outside the small number of extremely fit, young sailors who consider themselves Olympic hopefuls. That is because it's a class where a fit sailor will beat a more technically proficient one. Foiling is the opposite in my experience, fitness becomes somewhat secondary unless its extremely light wind.
I'm talking about club level sailors, not Olympic hopefuls.

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Grantmac said..
My specific location is Seattle, WA. A light wind area where before foils came along there simply wasn't any options besides RB or occasionally Formula. We have the longest running, if not particularly large, race series in North America if I remember correctly. It has traditionally been dominated by RBs, some rare nights Formula would be competitive. Now it's at least 50% foils and a lot of people with no interest in RBs are coming out to race, still more are freesailing in Seattle who would have instead traveled to the Gorge every weekend.

RSX has absolutely no appeal outside the small number of extremely fit, young sailors who consider themselves Olympic hopefuls. That is because it's a class where a fit sailor will beat a more technically proficient one. Foiling is the opposite in my experience, fitness becomes somewhat secondary unless its extremely light wind.
I'm talking about club level sailors, not Olympic hopefuls.

Grantmac that is cool. Are you going to swap out your open foil kit for the one design iFoil ? How many of the current club sailors do you expect will do so in your fleet ? It will be interesting to see if the one design is taken up by the open foilers. If it is not then I would question if it will grow any bigger than the current RSX fleet. I would add I have only seen one or two RSX in WA here. There is no racing of them here aside from the 2011 ISAF worlds and they are rare,

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RichardG said..
Paducah, Where do you sail ? which country ? at a sailing club ? What size local fleets are you foil racing in ? Just interested to see if foil racing is big where you are....It is not big in Western Australia but we have a fleet of 2 or 3 racing informally but many more foil sailors sailing free foiling but not racing. We have over 30 LTs but attract 6 -10 weekly for racing every Sunday. We had 24 sailors in our first LT State Championship in 2019. Just wondering if we can expect growth in one design foiling in clubs in Australia but at the prices quoted in Euro (exc GST) I have my doubts. Thanks.

RichardG, thanks for asking. SE US inland. Basically a crappy place to windsurf. But foiling has exploded - we're getting more time on the water than we've had in years. I've foiled at the local annual regatta hosted by a local sailing club. Recently attended a foil only regatta in Florida. Longboard racing in our region is on life support. The apogee was around 1997-98 and it's been a slide ever since.

Our annual gig is the only event between FL and VA (about 800 miles). We've been averaging about 25 attendees/yr through pure strength of will of the organizer and the fact that we have a very long streak going that nobody wants to see end. But we are getting massively grayer as time goes on. The number of new local raceboards in the past decade amounts to a few odd Konas and they aren't raced as one design. I've plunked around a course a few times on a Formula board but only about once every two-three years do we have enough wind for me to finish the race. I own a raceboard but it doesn't give me the same warm fuzzies in 10-15 that either a Formula or, especially foil, do.

The event in Florida was maybe 14 with about half U19 (including a past Kona world champ). The other half mostly old ex-Formula guys. I think there are similar numbers in S. Fl. While the foil numbers might seem low, they are on the uptrend while traditional raceboards, as I mentioned, aren't. Kona numbers remain low but steady and the LT hasn't gained traction. We brought LT charters up for our race and the reviews were mixed. It's a tough board to sail in a mixed fleet for the avg big US guy. I just don't see enough LTs getting sold here to race OD when most locals would rather (and do) spend their discretionary funds on foil gear. Foiling has opened wallets like I've not seen in 25 years.

Given the low numbers of windsurfers and lower number of racers in our region, I don't imagine there will ever be an iFoil OD fleet. But, that doesn't concern me. The gear is accessible to the average foiler to freeride or race. It will be very competitive vs other foil race gear. People can race it or not. The RS:X beyond being an Olympic board had zero interest in our region. In light air, any $150 garage sale IMCO was its equal and it was way too heavy and expensive to be a light wind freeride planing option.

The eye opener for me at the regional event was again: U19s being competitive on accessible gear; and that foiling skill and tactics were the biggest factors for success. Kids were coming across the finish line in the top three beating expensive gear on raceboard sails and alu foils. If they decide to pursue the Olympic option they can decide on the iFoil later. Owning non-iFoil gear now doesn't seem to be a hindrance. As other have mentioned owning iFoil gear and not aiming for the Olympics seems just as reasonable where it hasn't in years for either freeriding or open fleet racing.

Last - my foiling friends here are actually talking about doing some informal racing just for yucks and to hone skills. Most of these are folks who haven't competed in windsurfing in 10-15 years if ever. I'd be shocked if any of these bought any iFoil gear but they are the grass roots for a racing environment where iFoil is one of the top tiers.

Does anyone know if the Olympic kitefoiling is cheaper to buy than iFoil ?

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Paducah said..

RichardG said..
Paducah, Where do you sail ? which country ? at a sailing club ? What size local fleets are you foil racing in ? Just interested to see if foil racing is big where you are....It is not big in Western Australia but we have a fleet of 2 or 3 racing informally but many more foil sailors sailing free foiling but not racing. We have over 30 LTs but attract 6 -10 weekly for racing every Sunday. We had 24 sailors in our first LT State Championship in 2019. Just wondering if we can expect growth in one design foiling in clubs in Australia but at the prices quoted in Euro (exc GST) I have my doubts. Thanks.

RichardG, thanks for asking. SE US inland. Basically a crappy place to windsurf. But foiling has exploded - we're getting more time on the water than we've had in years. I've foiled at the local annual regatta hosted by a local sailing club. Recently attended a foil only regatta in Florida. Longboard racing in our region is on life support. The apogee was around 1997-98 and it's been a slide ever since.

Our annual gig is the only event between FL and VA (about 800 miles). We've been averaging about 25 attendees/yr through pure strength of will of the organizer and the fact that we have a very long streak going that nobody wants to see end. But we are getting massively grayer as time goes on. The number of new local raceboards in the past decade amounts to a few odd Konas and they aren't raced as one design. I've plunked around a course a few times on a Formula board but only about once every two-three years do we have enough wind for me to finish the race. I own a raceboard but it doesn't give me the same warm fuzzies in 10-15 that either a Formula or, especially foil, do.

The event in Florida was maybe 14 with about half U19 (including a past Kona world champ). The other half mostly old ex-Formula guys. I think there are similar numbers in S. Fl. While the foil numbers might seem low, they are on the uptrend while traditional raceboards, as I mentioned, aren't. Kona numbers remain low but steady and the LT hasn't gained traction. We brought LT charters up for our race and the reviews were mixed. It's a tough board to sail in a mixed fleet for the avg big US guy. I just don't see enough LTs getting sold here to race OD when most locals would rather (and do) spend their discretionary funds on foil gear. Foiling has opened wallets like I've not seen in 25 years.

Given the low numbers of windsurfers and lower number of racers in our region, I don't imagine there will ever be an iFoil OD fleet. But, that doesn't concern me. The gear is accessible to the average foiler to freeride or race. It will be very competitive vs other foil race gear. People can race it or not. The RS:X beyond being an Olympic board had zero interest in our region. In light air, any $150 garage sale IMCO was its equal and it was way too heavy and expensive to be a light wind freeride planing option.

The eye opener for me at the regional event was again: U19s being competitive on accessible gear; and that foiling skill and tactics were the biggest factors for success. Kids were coming across the finish line in the top three beating expensive gear on raceboard sails and alu foils. If they decide to pursue the Olympic option they can decide on the iFoil later. Owning non-iFoil gear now doesn't seem to be a hindrance. As other have mentioned owning iFoil gear and not aiming for the Olympics seems just as reasonable where it hasn't in years for either freeriding or open fleet racing.

Last - my foiling friends here are actually talking about doing some informal racing just for yucks and to hone skills. Most of these are folks who haven't competed in windsurfing in 10-15 years if ever. I'd be shocked if any of these bought any iFoil gear but they are the grass roots for a racing environment where iFoil is one of the top tiers.

Thanks. Good points foiling is on the rise everywhere. The LT will grow for sure as it has here.

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Chris 249 said..

AUS169 said..





Chris 249,

The following is an opinion. With no disrespect or argument.

The ifoil from Starboard/Severne has got up for #Paris2024. As previously stated it will be a multi manufacturer platform.

The sailors, will be, who they will be (RS;X, Raceboard, PWA, Slalom, Formula, Techno or your neighbours kid, whoever).

With Olympic (Government grants) and / or corporate money and anyone else they can scrape some funds and time together.

Let's hope that we can watch them and ourselves all get on the water and have fun (the young, the youth, old and not so old).

The best selected go race in Paris in 2024 and the rest of us, let's watch something truely fun on TV, if we can't be there in person.

Life's short. Foil for life.

I agree with almost all of that. It's just that the whole topic of gear and its effect on participation in sport is a topic that is fascinating and seems vitally important, in a time when far too many people are getting far too little activity and when sailing and windsurfing have declined so much. It also gets a bit frustrating when people say things but refuse to give the slightest factual backing for them, and when people tell me I know nothing about a sport in which I perform better than they do in windsurfing!

The other interesting thing is whether the ifoil has "got up" for 2024 yet. The press releases are saying that the selection will be ratified at the General Assembly, but in 2012 the General Assembly overturned the General Council's decision to throw windsurfing out and put kites in.

As I've said before, I'm not against windfoiling and I really dislike the RSX so I'm not biased. Having been in three classes that were selected for the Games I'm also not sure that selection would be a good thing for windfoiling, or for windsurfing.

Chris,

Very kind of you to be agreeable in large.

Point. I started windsurfing in the 70's. Lost interest in the 80's due to injury. Returned on a Windsurfer One Design in the last 6 years to get my son out and on the water. I cannot thank the crew at Narrabeen Lakes Sailing Club and their Windsurfer Class Captain; Roger Crawford (fantastic coach) plus the whole windsurfing community for being so amazing, welcoming and engaging.

I do have to admit to having a rather significant interest in foiling and am an incredibly strong advocate for foiling, innovation and engagement in our superb sport. I love that this sort of racing is new and showcases different aspects to our sport.

I can only hope the logic of the Selection Committee is followed by the General Council.

It would be a true shame for windsurfing to fade from the Olympics without demonstrating real innovation.

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RichardG said..
That is great and I hope the class prospers and we have sustainable fleets all around Australia in sailing clubs. The Windglider, Lechner, IMCO and RSX experience has shown the opposite unfortunately. I think the height of Olympic sailing in Australia was with the IMCO when there was in the early pre-Olympic years ie 91-96 club racing all around Australia in that Olympic class which builds the fleet and pool of sailors. Can the iFoil re-establish that for Olympic windsurfing ? I would hope so.

Were there one design imco fleets happening around Australia then ?

I was away from windsurfing for the years you mention and got back into it a couple of years before Sydney 2000. I had imcos and the only imco class races I remember then were those on the international calendar , Sail Sydney etc.
There were plenty of imcos club racing but these were in mixed Raceboard fleets and mainly sailed by the lighter guys and girls including those in the youth programs.
There was likely imco class youth events to select Worlds reps but I do also remember the youth sailors racing the Nationals with us in RB7.5 with the imco youth rep selection taken from that.

Not many were bought new , most of the boards were purchased from the visiting sailors who were here training and racing , new imcos were expensive .
I doubt there will be one design iFoil fleets club racing in Australia but you will see plenty racing in open windfoil fleets and they will be competitive.

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fjdoug said..

RichardG said..
That is great and I hope the class prospers and we have sustainable fleets all around Australia in sailing clubs. The Windglider, Lechner, IMCO and RSX experience has shown the opposite unfortunately. I think the height of Olympic sailing in Australia was with the IMCO when there was in the early pre-Olympic years ie 91-96 club racing all around Australia in that Olympic class which builds the fleet and pool of sailors. Can the iFoil re-establish that for Olympic windsurfing ? I would hope so.

Were there one design imco fleets happening around Australia then ?

I was away from windsurfing for the years you mention and got back into it a couple of years before Sydney 2000. I had imcos and the only imco class races I remember then were those on the international calendar , Sail Sydney etc.
There were plenty of imcos club racing but these were in mixed Raceboard fleets and mainly sailed by the lighter guys and girls including those in the youth programs.
There was likely imco class youth events to select Worlds reps but I do also remember the youth sailors racing the Nationals with us in RB7.5 with the imco youth rep selection taken from that.

Not many were bought new , most of the boards were purchased from the visiting sailors who were here training and racing , new imcos were expensive .
I doubt there will be one design iFoil fleets club racing in Australia but you will see plenty racing in open windfoil and they will be competitive.

Perth had a fleet early 90's around a dozen racing exclusively imcos

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cammd said..

duzzi said..

cammd said..

duzzi said..

cammd said..

duzzi said..

cammd said..

duzzi said..

P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.

I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...

I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.

If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)

Do you even race windsufers, I am assuming not given your comments about other clumsy boards, the comment just seems ignorant.

Oh, I see you are one of those who like to insult other people. Anyway, yes I raced slalom until I got a heart attack. Might go back to race foil if I can master it ...

Your one throwing around comments about "clumsy" boards and "bizarre big slabs", you don't consider that might insult someone.

cammd said..

duzzi said..

cammd said..

duzzi said..

cammd said..

duzzi said..

P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.

I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...

I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.

If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)

Do you even race windsufers, I am assuming not given your comments about other clumsy boards, the comment just seems ignorant.

Oh, I see you are one of those who like to insult other people. Anyway, yes I raced slalom until I got a heart attack. Might go back to race foil if I can master it ...

Your one throwing around comments about "clumsy" boards and "bizarre big slabs", you don't consider that might insult someone.

Oh no no, it is very different to call a person "ignorant" vs describing objects (in more or less flattering ways). Just to clarify: by "clumsy" I just meant all those windsurfs that are not nice and svelte like a wave board, small freestyle or a small slalom. So pile in there, just for the sake of classification, anything wider than 70 cm and/or longer than 350. I owned plenty of "clumsy" boards (my last one is a foil specific 78 wide with a 75 tail!) but the point is that any of those clumsy boards have a used market (ok ... maybe race boards don't very much and Formula are now in demand because people want to use them with a foil) , while a RS:X (that does look like a big slab) has none.

I didn't say you were ignorant, I said your comment seemed ignorant, and just to clarify by ignorant I mean a comment that does not originate from first hand experience.

You have never seen an RSX, and you can't even imagine why someone not training for the Olympics would even sail one. Based on your experience with RSX boards and RSX sailors I think it s fair to say it was an ignorant comment.

Oh well ... enough really ...

And yes, I never seen a RS:X ... because there is not a single one in the whole West coast of the United States. There might be a few in Florida. But I really cannot wait to put my hands on a 90 plus cm by 3 meters long board, with a dagger board, 230 liters, weighting 17 Kg ready to go!

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duzzi said..

Oh well ... enough really ...

And yes, I never seen a RS:X ... because there is not a single one in the whole West coast of the United States. There might be a few in Florida. But I really cannot wait to put my hands on a 90 plus cm by 3 meters long board, with a dagger board, 230 liters, weighting 17 Kg ready to go!

To be fair, there was a young lady your way that sailed one a few years back... https://www.teamusa.org/us-sailing/athletes/Marion-Lepert

But I agree with your point - same where I live. You don't have to see a bad idea up close to know it's a bad idea. I actually looked into one for kicks years back intrigued by their performance in 2012. The retail cost for the board alone was ridiculous since either my Equipe or Formula board were better in most cases and there wasn't a used board anywhere to be found. I think there was one in Canada at the time. So, no, that wasn't happening either. If it was priced like a 15.5kg board should have been (e.eg. Kona) instead of double that, people might have bought a few. If anyone protests that comparison, KIM a carbon Kona is still 20% cheaper. Pryde had a monopoly and priced it accordingly.

www.neilpryde.com/collections/rs-x/products/rs-x-board

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RichardG said..

Grantmac said..
My specific location is Seattle, WA. A light wind area where before foils came along there simply wasn't any options besides RB or occasionally Formula. We have the longest running, if not particularly large, race series in North America if I remember correctly. It has traditionally been dominated by RBs, some rare nights Formula would be competitive. Now it's at least 50% foils and a lot of people with no interest in RBs are coming out to race, still more are freesailing in Seattle who would have instead traveled to the Gorge every weekend.

RSX has absolutely no appeal outside the small number of extremely fit, young sailors who consider themselves Olympic hopefuls. That is because it's a class where a fit sailor will beat a more technically proficient one. Foiling is the opposite in my experience, fitness becomes somewhat secondary unless its extremely light wind.
I'm talking about club level sailors, not Olympic hopefuls.

Grantmac that is cool. Are you going to swap out your open foil kit for the one design iFoil ? How many of the current club sailors do you expect will do so in your fleet ? It will be interesting to see if the one design is taken up by the open foilers. If it is not then I would question if it will grow any bigger than the current RSX fleet. I would add I have only seen one or two RSX in WA here. There is no racing of them here aside from the 2011 ISAF worlds and they are rare,

My foil kit is currently freeride oriented but I've raced it casually.

Storage and transportation of larger gear is an issue for me these days and also I've moved far enough away for that active foiling fleet to make a race setup a low priority at the moment (I moved towards more wind so a good trade).

That race series has had people try to introduce both Kona and LT with little or no success. They just can't compete with proper raceboards and in turn on most night the RBs can't run with the foils (it's a completely open race).

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Paducah said..

duzzi said..

Oh well ... enough really ...

And yes, I never seen a RS:X ... because there is not a single one in the whole West coast of the United States. There might be a few in Florida. But I really cannot wait to put my hands on a 90 plus cm by 3 meters long board, with a dagger board, 230 liters, weighting 17 Kg ready to go!

To be fair, there was a young lady your way that sailed one a few years back... https://www.teamusa.org/us-sailing/athletes/Marion-Lepert

But I agree with your point - same where I live. You don't have to see a bad idea up close to know it's a bad idea. I actually looked into one for kicks years back intrigued by their performance in 2012. The retail cost for the board alone was ridiculous since either my Equipe or Formula board were better in most cases and there wasn't a used board anywhere to be found. I think there was one in Canada at the time. So, no, that wasn't happening either. If it was priced like a 15.5kg board should have been (e.eg. Kona) instead of double that, people might have bought a few. If anyone protests that comparison, KIM a carbon Kona is still 20% cheaper. Pryde had a monopoly and priced it accordingly.

www.neilpryde.com/collections/rs-x/products/rs-x-board

Ah, there! Marion is a great sailor, I see her out often. This summer she was training on Foil with the F4 guys ... maybe she is thinking about a 2024 Olympic Foil campaign!

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Paducah said..

duzzi said..

Oh well ... enough really ...

And yes, I never seen a RS:X ... because there is not a single one in the whole West coast of the United States. There might be a few in Florida. But I really cannot wait to put my hands on a 90 plus cm by 3 meters long board, with a dagger board, 230 liters, weighting 17 Kg ready to go!

To be fair, there was a young lady your way that sailed one a few years back... https://www.teamusa.org/us-sailing/athletes/Marion-Lepert

But I agree with your point - same where I live. You don't have to see a bad idea up close to know it's a bad idea. I actually looked into one for kicks years back intrigued by their performance in 2012. The retail cost for the board alone was ridiculous since either my Equipe or Formula board were better in most cases and there wasn't a used board anywhere to be found. I think there was one in Canada at the time. So, no, that wasn't happening either. If it was priced like a 15.5kg board should have been (e.eg. Kona) instead of double that, people might have bought a few. If anyone protests that comparison, KIM a carbon Kona is still 20% cheaper. Pryde had a monopoly and priced it accordingly.

www.neilpryde.com/collections/rs-x/products/rs-x-board

One thing, though, is that the same sort of pretty weak selection process that selected the RSX is being used to select the new board (if it gets through the General Assembly vote).

You're right that the LT and Kona won't compete with a Raceboard, or FW kit in a breeze. They weren't meant to do it, just as a Laser cannot compete with a skiff. And just as a Kona or LT may not hack it in your area with your racing setup, an ifoil won't hack it in my old club's active racing competitions.

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snides8 said..

fjdoug said..

RichardG said..
That is great and I hope the class prospers and we have sustainable fleets all around Australia in sailing clubs. The Windglider, Lechner, IMCO and RSX experience has shown the opposite unfortunately. I think the height of Olympic sailing in Australia was with the IMCO when there was in the early pre-Olympic years ie 91-96 club racing all around Australia in that Olympic class which builds the fleet and pool of sailors. Can the iFoil re-establish that for Olympic windsurfing ? I would hope so.

Were there one design imco fleets happening around Australia then ?

I was away from windsurfing for the years you mention and got back into it a couple of years before Sydney 2000. I had imcos and the only imco class races I remember then were those on the international calendar , Sail Sydney etc.
There were plenty of imcos club racing but these were in mixed Raceboard fleets and mainly sailed by the lighter guys and girls including those in the youth programs.
There was likely imco class youth events to select Worlds reps but I do also remember the youth sailors racing the Nationals with us in RB7.5 with the imco youth rep selection taken from that.

Not many were bought new , most of the boards were purchased from the visiting sailors who were here training and racing , new imcos were expensive .
I doubt there will be one design iFoil fleets club racing in Australia but you will see plenty racing in open windfoil and they will be competitive.

Perth had a fleet early 90's around a dozen racing exclusively imcos

Snides is right as and as I understand from the then IMCO retailer in Perth, that there were around 20 IMCOs in WA and a dozen racing regularly in Perth is consistent. I assumed the other states would have had more and active racing but I may be wrong. Can the iFoil build a class as big as the IMCO in local fleets ? I would be surprised , since the iFoil is essentially a class invented by a manufacturer for the Olympics, as compared to the IMCO which already was a global international class (30,000 were built in total as per wikipedia) before it was selected for the 1996 Olympics. The RSX was similar to the iFoil being a monopoly created by Neil Pryde. Strange World Sailing is it seems going down the same dangerous antitrust pathway, albeit Starboard calls it multi-manufacturer I wonder how that will work in practice if at all. On the other hand I don't see why open foiling will not be able to have fleets and grow since it is easier to assemble a motley crew of board owners with varying types of gear for races. That said many people get turned off by the equipment arms race in open classes and there is a reluctance of many to join sailing clubs which can defeat sustainability of classes.

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RichardG said..

snides8 said..

fjdoug said..

RichardG said..
That is great and I hope the class prospers and we have sustainable fleets all around Australia in sailing clubs. The Windglider, Lechner, IMCO and RSX experience has shown the opposite unfortunately. I think the height of Olympic sailing in Australia was with the IMCO when there was in the early pre-Olympic years ie 91-96 club racing all around Australia in that Olympic class which builds the fleet and pool of sailors. Can the iFoil re-establish that for Olympic windsurfing ? I would hope so.

Were there one design imco fleets happening around Australia then ?

I was away from windsurfing for the years you mention and got back into it a couple of years before Sydney 2000. I had imcos and the only imco class races I remember then were those on the international calendar , Sail Sydney etc.
There were plenty of imcos club racing but these were in mixed Raceboard fleets and mainly sailed by the lighter guys and girls including those in the youth programs.
There was likely imco class youth events to select Worlds reps but I do also remember the youth sailors racing the Nationals with us in RB7.5 with the imco youth rep selection taken from that.

Not many were bought new , most of the boards were purchased from the visiting sailors who were here training and racing , new imcos were expensive .
I doubt there will be one design iFoil fleets club racing in Australia but you will see plenty racing in open windfoil and they will be competitive.

Perth had a fleet early 90's around a dozen racing exclusively imcos

Snides is right as and as I understand from the then IMCO retailer in Perth, that there were around 20 IMCOs in WA and a dozen racing regularly in Perth is consistent. I assumed the other states would have had more and active racing but I may be wrong. Can the iFoil build a class as big as the IMCO in local fleets ? I would be surprised , since the iFoil is essentially a class invented by a manufacturer for the Olympics, as compared to the IMCO which already was a global international class (30,000 were built in total as per wikipedia) before it was selected for the 1996 Olympics. The RSX was similar to the iFoil being a monopoly created by Neil Pryde. Strange World Sailing is it seems going down the same dangerous antitrust pathway, albeit Starboard calls it multi-manufacturer I wonder how that will work in practice if at all. On the other hand I don't see why open foiling will not be able to have fleets and grow since it is easier to assemble a motley crew of board owners with varying types of gear for races. That said many people get turned off by the equipment arms race in open classes and there is a reluctance of many to join sailing clubs which can defeat sustainability of classes.

By about 2003, the only IMCO "fleet" in Oz clubs was the 7 or 8 at DAC. When they all got together for titles, we'd get maybe 10.

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Chris 249 said..


By about 2003, the only IMCO "fleet" in Oz clubs was the 7 or 8 at DAC. When they all got together for titles, we'd get maybe 10.

One of the nails in the IMCO's coffin in my area, ironically, was the Equipe II and later the Superlight II. The newer hull shape appealed to a wider range of windsurfers. IMCO sales dropped off a cliff as new buyers were going either premium (EII) or value/new windsurfer (SLII). Personally, I had an IMCO board in that era but when a good quality EII became available, I jumped all over it.

As well, the sail was caught at the edge of a quantum step in sail development - looser leeches - and while a fine sail to power up in light wind it was too dated to interest short boarders as newer gear showed up. The preferred kit if you stayed in the Mistral ecosystem was an Equipe II and Explosion with a more modern 7.5.

With the various Mistral offerings, 'cats, etc, at a local level, it seemed that skill outweighed equipment choice so the more casual would just race a 7.5 limited class and the ambitious would rig up 9.5s. A raceboard and 7.5 became the defacto "one design".

Side note: a friend helped with the gear at the "big" IMCO regatta locally and the equipment was barely one design. iirc. Racers would measure the provided equipment and swap as much as permitted to get the better stuff. There seemed to be a lot of variability both in boards and especially sails.

I'll admit I'd be happier with an open foil class for the Olympics but at least with the iFoil, the pricing is a known quantity for potential competitors. Then again, it's the Olympics. Who knows if there were any outside considerations - I have no basis to suggest there was anything untoward other than it's the Olympics.

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Chris 249 said..One thing, though, is that the same sort of pretty weak selection process that selected the RSX is being used to select the new board (if it gets through the General Assembly vote).

Paducah said..

duzzi said..

Oh well ... enough really ...

And yes, I never seen a RS:X ... because there is not a single one in the whole West coast of the United States. There might be a few in Florida. But I really cannot wait to put my hands on a 90 plus cm by 3 meters long board, with a dagger board, 230 liters, weighting 17 Kg ready to go!

To be fair, there was a young lady your way that sailed one a few years back... https://www.teamusa.org/us-sailing/athletes/Marion-Lepert

But I agree with your point - same where I live. You don't have to see a bad idea up close to know it's a bad idea. I actually looked into one for kicks years back intrigued by their performance in 2012. The retail cost for the board alone was ridiculous since either my Equipe or Formula board were better in most cases and there wasn't a used board anywhere to be found. I think there was one in Canada at the time. So, no, that wasn't happening either. If it was priced like a 15.5kg board should have been (e.eg. Kona) instead of double that, people might have bought a few. If anyone protests that comparison, KIM a carbon Kona is still 20% cheaper. Pryde had a monopoly and priced it accordingly.

www.neilpryde.com/collections/rs-x/products/rs-x-board

One thing, though, is that the same sort of pretty weak selection process that selected the RSX is being used to select the new board (if it gets through the General Assembly vote).

You're right that the LT and Kona won't compete with a Raceboard, or FW kit in a breeze. They weren't meant to do it, just as a Laser cannot compete with a skiff. And just as a Kona or LT may not hack it in your area with your racing setup, an ifoil won't hack it in my old club's active racing competitions.

Absolutely correct ! Aside from the "multi-manufacturer" claims which sound to me simple virtue signalling, another monopoly, is created without any real existing market set and a class proven, prior by the supply and demand and consumer forces independent of the Olympics.

I wonder if this new gear will be durable, Olympic hopefuls really work their gear hard, training everyday, racing every week. Given its more expensive already if it isn't as durable it will get a whole lot more expensive if it needs replacing more often.

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cammd said..
I wonder if this new gear will be durable, Olympic hopefuls really work their gear hard, training everyday, racing every week. Given its more expensive already if it isn't as durable it will get a whole lot more expensive if it needs replacing more often.

True. Also any serious candidate will purchase two sets of gear and many spares as well. If it becomes multi-manufacturer (which I doubt) then they will try out gear from the other manufacturers to work out which parts and gear are faster and assemble the world beater. It will cost for sure. Is Olympic kite foiling cheaper ? Kitefoiling is certainly faster but even so there is a threat to windsurfing remaining in the Olympics if the iFoil doesn't prove popular, cheap, accessible, durable and egalitarian by 2024. I am not just talking about Australia, Europe, USA and NZ but the less developed sailing teams from Africa, Latin America, the Middle East and Asia. There are forces at work impacting Olympic sailing. Windsurfing's advantage of relatively cheap and accessible may be being potentially adversely impacted by the move to iFoil. The RSX failed here, although some might say it has done fine, and the patience might break with the iFoil.

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RichardG said..

cammd said..
I wonder if this new gear will be durable, Olympic hopefuls really work their gear hard, training everyday, racing every week. Given its more expensive already if it isn't as durable it will get a whole lot more expensive if it needs replacing more often.

... Is Olympic kite foiling cheaper ? Kitefoiling is certainly faster but even so there is a threat to windsurfing remaining in the Olympics if the iFoil doesn't prove popular, cheap, accessible, durable and egalitarian by 2024. I ...

Not really ... Formula Kite allows four kites. $1500 a pop, plus board, plus foil. And you need the four kites for range (yes, kitefoil go well in light air, when they do not sink, but they do need a 15-20 monster to do so).

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cammd said..
I wonder if this new gear will be durable, Olympic hopefuls really work their gear hard, training everyday, racing every week. Given its more expensive already if it isn't as durable it will get a whole lot more expensive if it needs replacing more often.

That's a good point. The original RSX protos were reportedly much lighter and better performing (as were the ill fated RSX Evos). The beef up occurred after selection, and we know the result... yet the intense usage still apparently causes many failures.

Wasn't a big issue with IMCO that it greatly favoured lighter sailors until almost race-cancelling levels of wind? I haven't sailed one but I'm far from light and I've spent time on a few 250L RBs plus a modern 320cm hybrid of similar volume. At 200Lbs it always felt as though another 50L would have been faster although I've never had a go on a Phantom.

The RSX has the volume but so little glide that unless it's very windy they are just a cardio competition. The tactics are secondary to fitness in much the same way as IMCO made them secondary to body weight.

Which is kind of a digression but has some relevant information. If the Ifoil has enough low end for bigger sailors to be competitive then I think it's got a shot as being one-design successful.

My guess is unless most support the olympic kit (unlikely due to cost and/or our fascination with the latest and greatest) foil racing will be just like Formula before it.

It will be sailed on uneven gear, be an arms race to some extent and suit the fitter, more devoted types. For that reason it will not have big fleets.

With little promotion and no Olympic pathway I have been amazed at the take up of the LT - in Tasmania at least. There is a lot to be said for cheap, easy to use one design gear to build fleet numbers.

With kids I don't have too much time but want to have the odd race around the cans and a few beers afterwards. LT suits that purpose and use the short board when the winds up.

Also plan to stick a small sail on it at the local club and offer to kids to try. If I can get just one kid into windsurfer I will be satisfied.

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duzzi said..

RichardG said..

cammd said..
I wonder if this new gear will be durable, Olympic hopefuls really work their gear hard, training everyday, racing every week. Given its more expensive already if it isn't as durable it will get a whole lot more expensive if it needs replacing more often.

... Is Olympic kite foiling cheaper ? Kitefoiling is certainly faster but even so there is a threat to windsurfing remaining in the Olympics if the iFoil doesn't prove popular, cheap, accessible, durable and egalitarian by 2024. I ...

Not really ... Formula Kite allows four kites. $1500 a pop, plus board, plus foil. And you need the four kites for range (yes, kitefoil go well in light air, when they do not sink, but they do need a 15-20 monster to do so).

Retail on a new Ozone 21 race kite is more than 3k US. The cheapest is around 2400. I think the reason kite gear is so easy to transport sometimes is because your wallet takes up less space in the car...

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Grantmac said..
Wasn't a big issue with IMCO that it greatly favoured lighter sailors until almost race-cancelling levels of wind? I haven't sailed one but I'm far from light and I've spent time on a few 250L RBs plus a modern 320cm hybrid of similar volume. At 200Lbs it always felt as though another 50L would have been faster although I've never had a go on a Phantom.

The RSX has the volume but so little glide that unless it's very windy they are just a cardio competition. The tactics are secondary to fitness in much the same way as IMCO made them secondary to body weight.

Which is kind of a digression but has some relevant information. If the Ifoil has enough low end for bigger sailors to be competitive then I think it's got a shot as being one-design successful.

Yes. For a guy over 150 lbs/70kg, it was a challenge, iirc. Some pretty big athletes lost a lot of weight to stay competitive in IMCO. That's why so many normal people bought Equipe and Superlight IIs - more volume overall and in the tail. The IMCO was totally aerobic, too. It ended up being pump, pump, pump all the way around.

Lighter sailers still have an advantage in light wind on the iFoil. The smaller RS:X guys would put a bruising on the regular PWA slalom guys in the light air windward/leeward this year but when the wind came up, it was even if not biased towards the bigger guys. The crossover RS:X guys did bring their pumping skills with them and it can make a difference upwind.

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PaulUK said..

cammd said..
I wonder if this new gear will be durable, Olympic hopefuls really work their gear hard, training everyday, racing every week. Given its more expensive already if it isn't as durable it will get a whole lot more expensive if it needs replacing more often.

That's a good point. The original RSX protos were reportedly much lighter and better performing (as were the ill fated RSX Evos). The beef up occurred after selection, and we know the result... yet the intense usage still apparently causes many failures.

And IIRC the report from the body that selected the RSX said that the production boards would be lighter than the prototype, which had taken on water during the trials! One wonders whether it would have been selected had they known the production boards would be heavier.

Julian Bethwaite, the 49er and 49erFX designer, reckons it's very hard for builders to understand how hard the Olympians use most of their gear. They break things that last well in the hands of mortals.

I'd have more confidence in the selection committee's latest choice if there was evidence that they had considered these issues and the way the RSX selection committee got so many things wrong.

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Grantmac said..
Wasn't a big issue with IMCO that it greatly favoured lighter sailors until almost race-cancelling levels of wind? I haven't sailed one but I'm far from light and I've spent time on a few 250L RBs plus a modern 320cm hybrid of similar volume. At 200Lbs it always felt as though another 50L would have been faster although I've never had a go on a Phantom.

The RSX has the volume but so little glide that unless it's very windy they are just a cardio competition. The tactics are secondary to fitness in much the same way as IMCO made them secondary to body weight.

Which is kind of a digression but has some relevant information. If the Ifoil has enough low end for bigger sailors to be competitive then I think it's got a shot as being one-design successful.

There was a very interesting plot available on the net in IMCO days that graphed the weight of male and female sailors. Most of the men were tightly grouped (although there were one or two guys closer to 80kg, IIRC). Most of the women were also tightly grouped - but although the women and men were on the same board and sail, the two tight groups were very distinct from each other.

What was happening was the usual thing, where everyone tried to be as close to the norm as possible, because it's no use being outstanding in one type of conditions. If you're heavy even if you win by five minutes, the best lightweight will still get the points for second. In light airs you may be just one minute slower than the best lightweight, but if there's 10 other lightweights inside that minute you're stuffed. I had similar issues in amateur IMCO racing and I'm less than 170lb. So even if a class has a wide range of weights that could provide the same speed around the course overall, we may well still get the same situation where all the OIympians try to squeeze into the same tight weight range.

Incidentally as you say, switching to the bigger Equipe II made a huge difference on marginal reaches - but then you lose the OD aspect and join the arms race. I know some Olympians reckoned that the RSX's faster tacking made it more tactical than the IMCO, by the way.

From experience in three classes that became Olympian, I'd reckon that the Ifoil should perhaps consider setting up an Amateur division of some sort if it wants to generate regional racing outside of the Olympic circus. In foiling cats and Moths, the huge gap that is opening up between the pros and a lot of the good, serious amateurs is apparently causing significant problems in the fleet.