I don't think direct experience is a prerequisite for having an opinion. If it is than we should stop any discussion about the Olympics, most likely pwa events are off limits for most. Wave sailing at jaws or cloud break as well . Probably we shouldnt vote on Saturday about whos best to run the country either.

This debate is good. I would comment there are many people who knock the LT here. That is fair and it is not as fast as a raceboard eg Mistral One Design, Starboard Phantom etc. However speed is relative and there are many craft faster than those including kitefoilers. However the LT is loads of fun and is great to race. Just watch the worlds in Lake Garda in July and see how that pans out. I think Raceboard would be great in the Olympics but it no longer has the momentum globally to take it out. Goya have an exciting new board which may be a future Olympic board.

goyawindsurfing.com/boards/y2019/regatta-pro/

Olympic Dreams.Regatta Pro
Course Race Single

The Regatta Pro is a modern Raceboard concept. An innovative shape, capable of combining effective and comfortable navigation on the rail, with real glide sensations and planing on the fin. A compact Raceboard for those who desire the feeling of support by the daggerboard, not unlike a classic "Open Class" (below 10 knots), and at the same time keeping the character and the speed of planing boards (above 11 knots on the fin).The Regatta Pro is the result of research and development in collaboration with the French Sailing Federation, with the aim of reviving global scale tactical and entertaining contests in light wind, as well as dynamic and powerful racing in forceful wind. A truly innovative concept that meets all expectations of the Federal Fleet structures, which, at the initiative of the FFV, seek to offer youngsters the support and equipment needed to revive a discipline capable of being competitive and appealing to riders of different size and weight from 3 to 30 knots.Available in 260 liters.Available in Pro construction.Comes with a 62 cm race fin and a daggerboard.Comes with 6 footstraps.

It sounds like it will have twin cam Goya Mark 2 8.5 m2 and 9.5 m2 sails.

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RichardG said..
This debate is good. I would comment there are many people who knock the LT here. That is fair and it is not as fast as a raceboard eg Mistral One Design, Starboard Phantom etc. However speed is relative and there are many craft faster than those including kitefoilers. However the LT is loads of fun and is great to race. Just watch the worlds in Lake Garda in July and see how that pans out. I think Raceboard would be great in the Olympics but it no longer has the momentum globally to take it out. Goya have an exciting new board which may be a future Olympic board.

goyawindsurfing.com/boards/y2019/regatta-pro/

Olympic Dreams.Regatta Pro
Course Race Single

The Regatta Pro is a modern Raceboard concept. An innovative shape, capable of combining effective and comfortable navigation on the rail, with real glide sensations and planing on the fin. A compact Raceboard for those who desire the feeling of support by the daggerboard, not unlike a classic "Open Class" (below 10 knots), and at the same time keeping the character and the speed of planing boards (above 11 knots on the fin).The Regatta Pro is the result of research and development in collaboration with the French Sailing Federation, with the aim of reviving global scale tactical and entertaining contests in light wind, as well as dynamic and powerful racing in forceful wind. A truly innovative concept that meets all expectations of the Federal Fleet structures, which, at the initiative of the FFV, seek to offer youngsters the support and equipment needed to revive a discipline capable of being competitive and appealing to riders of different size and weight from 3 to 30 knots.Available in 260 liters.Available in Pro construction.Comes with a 62 cm race fin and a daggerboard.Comes with 6 footstraps.

It sounds like it will have twin cam Goya Mark 2 8.5 m2 and 9.5 m2 sails.

Can you use it as a SUP ?

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windsufering said..

RichardG said..
This debate is good. I would comment there are many people who knock the LT here. That is fair and it is not as fast as a raceboard eg Mistral One Design, Starboard Phantom etc. However speed is relative and there are many craft faster than those including kitefoilers. However the LT is loads of fun and is great to race. Just watch the worlds in Lake Garda in July and see how that pans out. I think Raceboard would be great in the Olympics but it no longer has the momentum globally to take it out. Goya have an exciting new board which may be a future Olympic board.

goyawindsurfing.com/boards/y2019/regatta-pro/

Olympic Dreams.Regatta Pro
Course Race Single

The Regatta Pro is a modern Raceboard concept. An innovative shape, capable of combining effective and comfortable navigation on the rail, with real glide sensations and planing on the fin. A compact Raceboard for those who desire the feeling of support by the daggerboard, not unlike a classic "Open Class" (below 10 knots), and at the same time keeping the character and the speed of planing boards (above 11 knots on the fin).The Regatta Pro is the result of research and development in collaboration with the French Sailing Federation, with the aim of reviving global scale tactical and entertaining contests in light wind, as well as dynamic and powerful racing in forceful wind. A truly innovative concept that meets all expectations of the Federal Fleet structures, which, at the initiative of the FFV, seek to offer youngsters the support and equipment needed to revive a discipline capable of being competitive and appealing to riders of different size and weight from 3 to 30 knots.Available in 260 liters.Available in Pro construction.Comes with a 62 cm race fin and a daggerboard.Comes with 6 footstraps.

It sounds like it will have twin cam Goya Mark 2 8.5 m2 and 9.5 m2 sails.

Can you use it as a SUP ?

I doubt it but I don't know. The LT has more universal use and could even be used as a SUP. There are people that use the Bombora Xit as a surfboard so anything is possible.

im sure cam can tell us all about the goya board .

I meet Goya years ago and he is not a racer, yes awesome wave sailor.
Bruce Kendall is double Olympic medalist and should have had a third medal if not from gear breakage which prompted better quality control as he got no redress.
Yes I'm a kiwi and biased but why not promote his work that offers an alternative to RSX & Techno and the length reduces excess baggage charges.
http://glide-sport.com/introduction
BK also charges in the waves

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Gestalt said..
im sure cam can tell us all about the goya board .

Never seen them before but really interested in the construction, hopefully much better than what cobra produce. I love sailing phantoms but I am sick and tired of constantly fixing them.

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515 said..
I meet Goya years ago and he is not a racer, yes awesome wave sailor.
Bruce Kendall is double Olympic medalist and should have had a third medal if not from gear breakage which prompted better quality control as he got no redress.
Yes I'm a kiwi and biased but why not promote his work that offers an alternative to RSX & Techno and the length reduces excess baggage charges.
http://glide-sport.com/introduction
BK also charges in the waves

I thought I read or heard something that about 70 Glides were coming to Australia, hope some demo kit makes its way to Qld

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cammd said..

515 said..
I meet Goya years ago and he is not a racer, yes awesome wave sailor.
Bruce Kendall is double Olympic medalist and should have had a third medal if not from gear breakage which prompted better quality control as he got no redress.
Yes I'm a kiwi and biased but why not promote his work that offers an alternative to RSX & Techno and the length reduces excess baggage charges.
http://glide-sport.com/introduction
BK also charges in the waves

I thought I read or heard something that about 70 Glides were coming to Australia, hope some demo kit makes its way to Qld

I like the Glide but the Goya board was developed in France and that means a lot since the Techno fleet will jump on board. I think Francisco raced in Argentina when he started windsurfing like most sailors in the 80s so don't discount his understanding and design knowledge. Benny Van Der Steen is a Goya sailor too. Keith Teboul is also a great shaper too. I like the Glide also. Bruce Kendall is a great sailor no doubt in my mind. If 10 Glides were sent to Mounts Bay Sailing Club for trials that would be great so we could promote the class in WA.

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RichardG said..

cammd said..

515 said..
I meet Goya years ago and he is not a racer, yes awesome wave sailor.
Bruce Kendall is double Olympic medalist and should have had a third medal if not from gear breakage which prompted better quality control as he got no redress.
Yes I'm a kiwi and biased but why not promote his work that offers an alternative to RSX & Techno and the length reduces excess baggage charges.
http://glide-sport.com/introduction
BK also charges in the waves

I thought I read or heard something that about 70 Glides were coming to Australia, hope some demo kit makes its way to Qld

I like the Glide but the Goya board was developed in France and that means a lot since the Techno fleet will jump on board. I think Francisco raced in Argentina when he started windsurfing like most sailors in the 80s so don't discount his understanding and design knowledge. Benny Van Der Steen is a Goya sailor too. Keith Teboul is also a great shaper too. I like the Glide also. Bruce Kendall is a great sailor no doubt in my mind. If 10 Glides were sent to Mounts Bay Sailing Club for trials that would be great so we could promote the class in WA.

All the "hybrid boards" to date don't seem to be able match the performance of a longboard around a course over a large range of conditions. I wonder if both the Glide and the Goya will be the same. It would be great to have a shorter board that does have two upwind modes "rail or fin" that can offer the same performance as a longboard in the lighter stuff. The RSX has tried to be that board and a list of them have followed but inevitably the compromise results in mediocre performance across a larger range of conditions. Not as good as a longboard in marginal stuff and not as good as a formula in planning mode. Their biggest advantage appears to be that they will fit on a aeroplane.

Foils appear to be kit that will out do the longboard, performance wise, in everything but the lightest of winds and do we want to race in those really light winds, maybe not but sometimes we have to in order get a result. The Olympics is one of those times. Also the speed at which they get around a course may not be good thing for grass roots growth in the sport. Look at Moths, awesome performance but the leaders are lapping or double lapping the last in the fleet. Some sailors may not even finish a race in a regatta because once the winner crosses the line everyone else just finishes on whatever lap they are on. Kites foils are similar, I haven't been following them but in the early days 1 or 2 guys were so far in front and dominated so much that really the racing was pretty boring. At least in a slower class you may not be at the front but you can still see where it is. Look at the numbers, Windsurfer LT and foils appeared on the race scene at roughly the same time, which class is growing faster.

Glad I am not making the decision, if I was I would choose something in between the LT and Foil. I think you call them Raceboards

The Goya board in too similar to the RSX, in his letter to World Sailing pleading the case of foiling Dorian V acknowledged that even though the RSX provides close racing, it does nothing well is a dog of a board to sail and no one really enjoys sailing it. I think it should be either long board or foil

Quick search of the classifieds brought this up, $150 meets all the requirements and there's probably hundreds of them laying around looking for a home. Why make the LT when there's gems like this around. Who wants fast exciting racing anyway

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Ben1973 said..
Quick search of the classifieds brought this up, $150 meets all the requirements and there's probably hundreds of them laying around looking for a home. Why make the LT when there's gems like this around. Who wants fast exciting racing anyway

Ben73, that is the Windsurfer One Design Olympic board from the 1984 Olympic Games Demonstration event held in LA, the gold medal for which was won by Australia's Bruce Wylie. I don't think you can get the specific board in Australia.The LT is much better to sail than that board.

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cammd said..

RichardG said..

cammd said..

515 said..
I meet Goya years ago and he is not a racer, yes awesome wave sailor.
Bruce Kendall is double Olympic medalist and should have had a third medal if not from gear breakage which prompted better quality control as he got no redress.
Yes I'm a kiwi and biased but why not promote his work that offers an alternative to RSX & Techno and the length reduces excess baggage charges.
http://glide-sport.com/introduction
BK also charges in the waves

I thought I read or heard something that about 70 Glides were coming to Australia, hope some demo kit makes its way to Qld

I like the Glide but the Goya board was developed in France and that means a lot since the Techno fleet will jump on board. I think Francisco raced in Argentina when he started windsurfing like most sailors in the 80s so don't discount his understanding and design knowledge. Benny Van Der Steen is a Goya sailor too. Keith Teboul is also a great shaper too. I like the Glide also. Bruce Kendall is a great sailor no doubt in my mind. If 10 Glides were sent to Mounts Bay Sailing Club for trials that would be great so we could promote the class in WA.

All the "hybrid boards" to date don't seem to be able match the performance of a longboard around a course over a large range of conditions. I wonder if both the Glide and the Goya will be the same. It would be great to have a shorter board that does have two upwind modes "rail or fin" that can offer the same performance as a longboard in the lighter stuff. The RSX has tried to be that board and a list of them have followed but inevitably the compromise results in mediocre performance across a larger range of conditions. Not as good as a longboard in marginal stuff and not as good as a formula in planning mode. Their biggest advantage appears to be that they will fit on a aeroplane.

Foils appear to be kit that will out do the longboard, performance wise, in everything but the lightest of winds and do we want to race in those really light winds, maybe not but sometimes we have to in order get a result. The Olympics is one of those times. Also the speed at which they get around a course may not be good thing for grass roots growth in the sport. Look at Moths, awesome performance but the leaders are lapping or double lapping the last in the fleet. Some sailors may not even finish a race in a regatta because once the winner crosses the line everyone else just finishes on whatever lap they are on. Kites foils are similar, I haven't been following them but in the early days 1 or 2 guys were so far in front and dominated so much that really the racing was pretty boring. At least in a slower class you may not be at the front but you can still see where it is. Look at the numbers, Windsurfer LT and foils appeared on the race scene at roughly the same time, which class is growing faster.

Glad I am not making the decision, if I was I would choose something in between the LT and Foil. I think you call them Raceboards

I think if the Raceboard was chosen that would be fantastic racing. It confirms that the Mistral One Design should never have been dropped. That said I think the LT would be excellent racing as well in the Olympics.

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RichardG said..

Ben1973 said..
Quick search of the classifieds brought this up, $150 meets all the requirements and there's probably hundreds of them laying around looking for a home. Why make the LT when there's gems like this around. Who wants fast exciting racing anyway

Ben73, that is the Windsurfer One Design Olympic board from the 1984 Olympic Games Demonstration event held in LA, the gold medal for which was won by Australia's Bruce Wylie. I don't think you can get the specific board in Australia.The LT is much better to sail than that board.

It is, for $150 plus shipping I'll get it over to you

Select to expand quote

Ben1973 said..

RichardG said..

Ben1973 said..
Quick search of the classifieds brought this up, $150 meets all the requirements and there's probably hundreds of them laying around looking for a home. Why make the LT when there's gems like this around. Who wants fast exciting racing anyway

Ben73, that is the Windsurfer One Design Olympic board from the 1984 Olympic Games Demonstration event held in LA, the gold medal for which was won by Australia's Bruce Wylie. I don't think you can get the specific board in Australia.The LT is much better to sail than that board.

It is, for $150 plus shipping I'll get it over to you

No interest mate I have an LT. Pay your own tip fees. Thanks anyway.

Yea foiling at the Olympics is Pie in the Sky stuff. I'm foiling and if in the situation it was included in the Olympics it would be a research and development race around specifications and equipment refinement until 2024 as so much development and change will naturally occur between now and then. Don't get me wrong it great to watch and better entertainment.

If the RSX is unpopular or interest is fading by the sailors and/or supporters then the windsurf LT is the go. I agree the craft needs to be cheap and tough. Thus todays race boards don't fit the bill like the mistral did. I agree the Mistral should of been kept as it was a refined one design and I am ignorant of how the RSX wa viewed to be better than the mistral.

This forum subject has created a lot of interesting discussion. Does anyone know the selection criteria for the 2024 equipment? Is it related to maximising viewing, profits, class participation, or anything else?
I think it's fun to race on Olympic class equipment as you can potentially race against to the best, however you can do this in WC's too every year with a typically easier and more accessible qualification.
Dorian stated "People leave the class because it is too expensive for what it is, not durable enough and far too physically demanding - heavy both on and off the water."
They might be some reasons that suit his argument for change however I have other observations too.
Youth sports and youth Windsurfing have high participation when youth are living at home, funded my Mum and Dad, single/not in serious relationship, plenty of spare time after study or part time work. All this changes around the time youth complete study and/or get a job. Maybe then we call them adults and they might have to move away for work and not close to a racing fleet, work 40hrs per week, spend time with serious partner/family, spend their own hard earned money on windsurfer vs car, rent, partner, expenses, or think about saving for a house. If they don't love windsurfing enough it goes down the priority list. For those who still love it, getting out a couple of times a week is not usually enough to be able to win against the full time sailors so why spend so much money renewing equipment.
For a few who were successful in youth, they may get financial support from their national sailing body or some sponsors so they continue and make a career of it, even continue to be a coach.
Regarding board choices and Olympics aside. It's whatever your taste is. Speed, modern equipment, cost, ease of use, simplicity, big fleets for course racing, a combination?
Windsurfer LT is the clear winner for simplicity, ease of use and cost. Upwind performance, and the revival fleets are other positives. Weaknesses are downwind top end speed due to small rig and wide (stable) board.
Raceboard, RSX, formula and foiling all require more skill and are more physical to sail. But if you like speed then these all have their moments. Cost is higher but second hand equipment can be quite good value. RB is faster than the rest in the lightest winds (displacement mode) but there's a point when RSX and formula will plane and foiling will fly so the fun begins. Some people enjoy the physical challenge of holding an overpowered 9.5m rig in 25knots, battling the conditions, going fast and being on the edge of a big wipeout.
If you're going out for racing then the fleet size probably matters and you will probably experience all conditions. Otherwise a board may be chosen to suit local conditions, or windsurfing is saved for when it's windy enough to have some fun. Maybe it's fun from a social point of view or enjoying some outdoor activity.
In conclusion all boards can be fun, you have to ask the sailor, and there is no conclusion about gear selection for the 2024 Olympics.

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Ben1973 said..
Quick search of the classifieds brought this up, $150 meets all the requirements and there's probably hundreds of them laying around looking for a home. Why make the LT when there's gems like this around. Who wants fast exciting racing anyway

If you want really fast racing why would you windsurf instead of kitefoiling?

What is exciting is purely down to personal taste and has to do with a lot more things than speed. Personally I find some racing classes to be more frustrating than exciting because they get down to a spending race.

It's one thing to say the LT shouldn't be in the Games (something I agree with) but slinging **** at the board just because it doesn't suit you is something else. There's a high-speed windsurfing discipline in which I've done pretty well (top 20 at a worlds) that bores me ****less these days - so what? That's purely personal and I don't sling **** at it, because other people love it and that's great.

Maybe you should bear in mind that some of your comments here, such as the one that the LT will never do 20 knots, are just completely and utterly wrong. I see that you've only recently gotten back into windsurfing after a 25 year break, were struggling a bit and using a big fast board, No one insulted you when you were unfit or for sailing a big board so why do you feel that you can sling **** at other people?

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brynoz said..
Yea foiling at the Olympics is Pie in the Sky stuff. I'm foiling and if in the situation it was included in the Olympics it would be a research and development race around specifications and equipment refinement until 2024 as so much development and change will naturally occur between now and then. Don't get me wrong it great to watch and better entertainment.

If the RSX is unpopular or interest is fading by the sailors and/or supporters then the windsurf LT is the go. I agree the craft needs to be cheap and tough. Thus todays race boards don't fit the bill like the mistral did. I agree the Mistral should of been kept as it was a refined one design and I am ignorant of how the RSX wa viewed to be better than the mistral.

RSX was chosen as it was faster than MOD around a course above ~10knots when it can plane downwind. And the ideal sailor weight for MOD was 65 - 70kgs so they wanted a kit that could increase this a bit.
They also claimed that pumping wouldn't be necessary on RSX, too much pumping in MOD. That turned out to be a fallacy and you had to be 'twice' as strong to carry and pump the RSX!

I love the argument that foils are going to advance too much in the next 5 years. That means windsurfing will advance too much in 5 years. So is the answer to move further backwards?

If you want speed just have a soldier course and get rid of tactics
no need for upwind tacking duels
and bring back triangles
no windward returns
yep sounds great
follow the leader

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Duff12 said..RSX was chosen as it was faster than MOD around a course above ~10knots when it can plane downwind. And the ideal sailor weight for MOD was 65 - 70kgs so they wanted a kit that could increase this a bit.
They also claimed that pumping wouldn't be necessary on RSX, too much pumping in MOD. That turned out to be a fallacy and you had to be 'twice' as strong to carry and pump the RSX!

brynoz said..
Yea foiling at the Olympics is Pie in the Sky stuff. I'm foiling and if in the situation it was included in the Olympics it would be a research and development race around specifications and equipment refinement until 2024 as so much development and change will naturally occur between now and then. Don't get me wrong it great to watch and better entertainment.

If the RSX is unpopular or interest is fading by the sailors and/or supporters then the windsurf LT is the go. I agree the craft needs to be cheap and tough. Thus todays race boards don't fit the bill like the mistral did. I agree the Mistral should of been kept as it was a refined one design and I am ignorant of how the RSX wa viewed to be better than the mistral.

RSX was chosen as it was faster than MOD around a course above ~10knots when it can plane downwind. And the ideal sailor weight for MOD was 65 - 70kgs so they wanted a kit that could increase this a bit.
They also claimed that pumping wouldn't be necessary on RSX, too much pumping in MOD. That turned out to be a fallacy and you had to be 'twice' as strong to carry and pump the RSX!

Funny, the same weight, almost as Dorian is 75kg. Up 5 kg or so huge advance. I think if they adopted the Exocet RS380 Elite with Batwings that would be fantastic probably weight could increase a bit more and it would be a great showcase of race boarding although it is probably too expensive a bit of gear, about same as RSX, and maybe fragility is an issue. The LT doesn't need the Olympics even though it would be a huge cost saving per board and rig.

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da vecta said..
I love the argument that foils are going to advance too much in the next 5 years. That means windsurfing will advance too much in 5 years. So is the answer to move further backwards?

That's the arms race argument, if they went one design that would solve that issue.

It would be funny if the Lt made the Olympics.
The melts would be epic.
deep blue would melt
people who don't even race or sailed a Lt would go mental

Well De Vecta the answer is Yes. I'd say windsurfing did go backwards for a bit and designers and riders made equipment to specific and too difficult to ride. This came from needing to split hairs as windsurfing is so refined now. wider board with less volume are now becoming more narrow with greater volume to get through the gybes on the plane and adding more vee back into the shape to handle the chop so sailor can power off the fin. But I digress. I think it's a fair point to highlight foiling with evolve in equipment and performance greatly in comparison to windsurfing in the next five years. I would support this assumption based on where foiling with 5 years ago. E.G you were not foiling at all.

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cammd said..

da vecta said..
I love the argument that foils are going to advance too much in the next 5 years. That means windsurfing will advance too much in 5 years. So is the answer to move further backwards?

That's the arms race argument, if they went one design that would solve that issue.

For the top sailors, one design is still as expensive as they buy three boards, five rigs, ten fins etc and test and choose the fastest items. Spend as much money as they have or have sense. And they'll have to spend twice as much if there's another manufacturer for RSX equipment in the next cycle to figure out which makes the fastest kit.
I heard somebody spent $70k on a raceboard worlds campaign and still didn't podium.

Foiling will be in the PWA not sure why it needs to be in the Olympics. Foiling will develop. In the meantime Raceboards would be a great thing for the Olympics. Pick the Exocet since it is the latest design- although the Glide would be cool too and is the only candidate (presently in contention) other than LT I would support. Also LT can grow independent of the Olympics. Techno can remain a feeder class for youth.

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Duff12 said..

cammd said..

da vecta said..
I love the argument that foils are going to advance too much in the next 5 years. That means windsurfing will advance too much in 5 years. So is the answer to move further backwards?

That's the arms race argument, if they went one design that would solve that issue.

For the top sailors, one design is still as expensive as they buy three boards, five rigs, ten fins etc and test and choose the fastest items. Spend as much money as they have or have sense. And they'll have to spend twice as much if there's another manufacturer for RSX equipment in the next cycle to figure out which makes the fastest kit.
I heard somebody spent $70k on a raceboard worlds campaign and still didn't podium.

The RSX have very tight tolerance applied the most strictest of any class to avoid that issue , they are having a bit of a disagreement about the the fins .
www.rsxclass.org/the-rsx-mark-3-fins-banned-for-2017-youth-worlds-nor-amendment-published/
my understanding is they couldn't produce enough fins that fit in tolerance

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windsufering said..

Duff12 said..

cammd said..

da vecta said..
I love the argument that foils are going to advance too much in the next 5 years. That means windsurfing will advance too much in 5 years. So is the answer to move further backwards?

That's the arms race argument, if they went one design that would solve that issue.

For the top sailors, one design is still as expensive as they buy three boards, five rigs, ten fins etc and test and choose the fastest items. Spend as much money as they have or have sense. And they'll have to spend twice as much if there's another manufacturer for RSX equipment in the next cycle to figure out which makes the fastest kit.
I heard somebody spent $70k on a raceboard worlds campaign and still didn't podium.

The RSX have very tight tolerance applied the most strictest of any class to avoid that issue , they are having a bit of a disagreement about the the fins .
www.rsxclass.org/the-rsx-mark-3-fins-banned-for-2017-youth-worlds-nor-amendment-published/
my understanding is they couldn't produce enough fins that fit in tolerance

Many complaints about the RSX are in relation to quality product and availability of spares. Dorian pointed that out in his letter but don't Cobra build the RSX board as well as the RSX fins that have been such an issue recently. Not sure where Starboard foils are built but the boards are Cobra. The LT is a Cobra product as well so any spare parts or quality issues the RSX has suffered you would expect would be the same for both Starboard boards and the Windsurfer LT.

It was also noted in the LT submission that if it was selected the price of the gear would increase due to the tighter tolerances that would be required for Olympic competition. Maybe as an Olympic class the price of a LT would double.