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cammd said..

windsufering said..

Duff12 said..

cammd said..

da vecta said..
I love the argument that foils are going to advance too much in the next 5 years. That means windsurfing will advance too much in 5 years. So is the answer to move further backwards?

That's the arms race argument, if they went one design that would solve that issue.

For the top sailors, one design is still as expensive as they buy three boards, five rigs, ten fins etc and test and choose the fastest items. Spend as much money as they have or have sense. And they'll have to spend twice as much if there's another manufacturer for RSX equipment in the next cycle to figure out which makes the fastest kit.
I heard somebody spent $70k on a raceboard worlds campaign and still didn't podium.

The RSX have very tight tolerance applied the most strictest of any class to avoid that issue , they are having a bit of a disagreement about the the fins .
www.rsxclass.org/the-rsx-mark-3-fins-banned-for-2017-youth-worlds-nor-amendment-published/
my understanding is they couldn't produce enough fins that fit in tolerance

Many complaints about the RSX are in relation to quality product and availability of spares. Dorian pointed that out in his letter but don't Cobra build the RSX board as well as the RSX fins that have been such an issue recently. Not sure where Starboard foils are built but the boards are Cobra. The LT is a Cobra product as well so any spare parts or quality issues the RSX has suffered you would expect would be the same for both Starboard boards and the Windsurfer LT.

It was also noted in the LT submission that if it was selected the price of the gear would increase due to the tighter tolerances that would be required for Olympic competition. Maybe as an Olympic class the price of a LT would double.

Who do you suggest build them

I'm not really that concerned about who builds wallies but I would love to see a modern Raceboard built by someone other than Cobra

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cammd said..
I'm not really that concerned about who builds wallies but I would love to see a modern Raceboard built by someone other than Cobra

What would your specs be ?

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Imax1 said..

cammd said..
I'm not really that concerned about who builds wallies but I would love to see a modern Raceboard built by someone other than Cobra

What would your specs be ?

I think the way the Phantom sails is awesome across a wide range of conditions, the issue is build quality and availabilty of spares. Sound similar to RSX problems? One of the sailors here in Qld just imported a heap of gaskets custom made from China to suit the phantom because you can't get them from starboard. If he can do it why can't Starboard?

plug- they are for sale in the buy and sell Qld section if you need one

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cammd said..
I'm not really that concerned about who builds wallies but I would love to see a modern Raceboard built by someone other than Cobra

Why don't YOU ?

The wally is built fine any probs it's under warranty
spare parts are easy to get

Yep making the foils to tolerance spec would be easy and no drama at all LOL

BREAKING NEWS - "Today the armaments committee of the world sailing Federation, recommended and will meet tomorrow 19 may, that windsurfing equipment for 2024 should pass through the test process. Now we should wait for the council's decision tomorrow "

This is looking a bit more positive.

World-Sailing: "The Committee discussed the recommendation and its merits. They voted to reject the Board recommendation. The Equipment Committee recommendation was that the Board recommendation to Council should be to "select new Equipment" as the outcome of the re-evaluation and to conduct sea trials against an updated set of criteria."

Also, looks like Lasers were recommended to be replaced by the RS Aero.

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Duff12 said..

cammd said..

da vecta said..
I love the argument that foils are going to advance too much in the next 5 years. That means windsurfing will advance too much in 5 years. So is the answer to move further backwards?

That's the arms race argument, if they went one design that would solve that issue.

For the top sailors, one design is still as expensive as they buy three boards, five rigs, ten fins etc and test and choose the fastest items. Spend as much money as they have or have sense. And they'll have to spend twice as much if there's another manufacturer for RSX equipment in the next cycle to figure out which makes the fastest kit.
I heard somebody spent $70k on a raceboard worlds campaign and still didn't podium.

Some top sailors from classes where the Olympics organisers supply the kit (Laser and Laser Radial) tell me that just isn't true. Since they have to race on gear that is supplied, they have to learn how to assess kit that is less than perfect or out of the ordinary and to trim it in a way that makes it perform as well as the other stuff.

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da vecta said..
World-Sailing: "The Committee discussed the recommendation and its merits. They voted to reject the Board recommendation. The Equipment Committee recommendation was that the Board recommendation to Council should be to "select new Equipment" as the outcome of the re-evaluation and to conduct sea trials against an updated set of criteria."

I wonder what the updated criteria would be.

I dunno, but since the foiler fans criticised the earlier committee's decision because the committee did not have any active windsurfers, one assumes they will ALSO criticise the Equipment Committee's decision - after all, it appears to have only one windsurfer (Bruno) and surely his massive conflict of interest cannot be overlooked.

By the way, I've never particularly liked the RSX. But it was interesting that it was chosen by top windsurfers, and now some top windsurfers are saying it was always a dog. Regardless of whether that is true or not, it seems that the "pro change" movement is making contradictory statements or inferences;

1- windsurfers chose the RSX but it was a bad choice; BUT
2- windsurfers should choose the replacement because windsurfers choose the right board;
2- the second committee made a bad choice BECAUSE it had no windsurfers; BUT
3- the Equipment Committee made a good choice DESPITE having no windsurfers (apart from one who has such a conflict of interest he hopefully stood aside).

Seriously, though, surely there should be some consistency here. If a lack of windsurfing expertise is a problem that could cause one committee to make the wrong decision (as some foilers inferred earlier) then the same standard must be applied to other committees. Either we have a principle to follow, or we don't. If lack of windsurfer expertise was a fatal flaw for one committee then it must have been a fatal flaw for the other committee. If a committee of expert windsurfers made one bad choice in one instance, then we cannot assume that a committee of expert windsurfers will make a good choice in the next instance.

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NelsonFoils said..

cammd said..
I'm not really that concerned about who builds wallies but I would love to see a modern Raceboard built by someone other than Cobra

Why don't YOU ?

That's a pretty dumb question, are you suggesting if I couldn't do a better job I should keep quiet. I'm a customer not a manufacturer, I don't advertise and promote that I produce windsurfing equipment, I don't take thousands of dollars off people on the basis of supplying them a top quality windsurfing product. That's why I don't produce them, that would seem pretty obvious.

That aside, evaluating past performance of product support is a good indicator of what could be expected in the future. If suddenly we have a new Olympic class you would expect demand of that gear to increase rapidly, you would also expect the amount of time that gear gets used by individuals to increase rapidly. That means the availability of new equipment and of spare parts will be very important to sailors.

I ordered a gasket a few years ago, given up on ever getting a genuine spare and had to source after market solutions. Who has ever tried to order battens as a genuine spare part, impossible. The only battens I know of you can order are RSX or techno, every other time you break a batten you have to get out the epoxy and go to the pile of battens that you kept from worn out sails and make a new. Not sure that sort of support will be sufficient for people running Olympic campaigns.

The vote went against the RSX. There will now have to be a new recommendation.

The body that voted against the RSX is overwhelmingly made up of non windsurfers. If people criticised the earlier decision of one committee because it had no windsurfers on it, then they should criticise the current decision on the same grounds.

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Chris249 said..
The vote went against the RSX

Wow, that's interesting, the wally and glide are both one designs, what are the two foils submissions, Is the Starboard a one design submission and what is the ifoil, don't know anything about it.

There was a very strange thing going under the name of i-foil but it seems to have vanished. I can't find any info about either foiler.

The decision to dump the RSX was reasonably close but rather odd considering that it's the second most popular and widespread class, and the only class that is more popular and widespread (the Laser) overwhelmingly won the vote.

It's hard to see why the Glyde would be anything more than a marginal improvement in performance, with massive economic cost. The LT would be a nightmare from some angles. Foiling seems to be unproven in Olympic sailing conditions, and Marseille is going to be very light as far as I know.

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cammd said..

NelsonFoils said..

cammd said..
I'm not really that concerned about who builds wallies but I would love to see a modern Raceboard built by someone other than Cobra

Why don't YOU ?

That's a pretty dumb question, are you suggesting if I couldn't do a better job I should keep quiet. I'm a customer not a manufacturer, I don't advertise and promote that I produce windsurfing equipment, I don't take thousands of dollars off people on the basis of supplying them a top quality windsurfing product. That's why I don't produce them, that would seem pretty obvious.

That aside, evaluating past performance of product support is a good indicator of what could be expected in the future. If suddenly we have a new Olympic class you would expect demand of that gear to increase rapidly, you would also expect the amount of time that gear gets used by individuals to increase rapidly. That means the availability of new equipment and of spare parts will be very important to sailors.

I ordered a gasket a few years ago, given up on ever getting a genuine spare and had to source after market solutions. Who has ever tried to order battens as a genuine spare part, impossible. The only battens I know of you can order are RSX or techno, every other time you break a batten you have to get out the epoxy and go to the pile of battens that you kept from worn out sails and make a new. Not sure that sort of support will be sufficient for people running Olympic campaigns.

Not suggesting anything . You are a customer and the one question you (and a lot of other customers ) never ask : Is posible to get the stuff, quality, service and suport I want for the money I'm willing to pay ?

If it wasn't for Cobra windsurfing was a elite sport , boards 3x the price we pay now .

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cammd said..

Chris249 said..
The vote went against the RSX

Wow, that's interesting, the wally and glide are both one designs, what are the two foils submissions, Is the Starboard a one design submission and what is the ifoil, don't know anything about it.

I think the Starboard is pretty much the pro foil that's been racing world wide for about 2 years now (with 900 wing), with the 177 foil board and the 9 metre Severne HG 2. But don't quote me exactly ??.

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NelsonFoils said..

cammd said..

NelsonFoils said..

cammd said..
I'm not really that concerned about who builds wallies but I would love to see a modern Raceboard built by someone other than Cobra

Why don't YOU ?

That's a pretty dumb question, are you suggesting if I couldn't do a better job I should keep quiet. I'm a customer not a manufacturer, I don't advertise and promote that I produce windsurfing equipment, I don't take thousands of dollars off people on the basis of supplying them a top quality windsurfing product. That's why I don't produce them, that would seem pretty obvious.

That aside, evaluating past performance of product support is a good indicator of what could be expected in the future. If suddenly we have a new Olympic class you would expect demand of that gear to increase rapidly, you would also expect the amount of time that gear gets used by individuals to increase rapidly. That means the availability of new equipment and of spare parts will be very important to sailors.

I ordered a gasket a few years ago, given up on ever getting a genuine spare and had to source after market solutions. Who has ever tried to order battens as a genuine spare part, impossible. The only battens I know of you can order are RSX or techno, every other time you break a batten you have to get out the epoxy and go to the pile of battens that you kept from worn out sails and make a new. Not sure that sort of support will be sufficient for people running Olympic campaigns.

Not suggesting anything . You are a customer and the one question you (and a lot of other customers ) never ask : Is posible to get the stuff, quality, service and suport I want for the money I'm willing to pay ?

If it wasn't for Cobra windsurfing was a elite sport , boards 3x the price we pay now .

So what are you saying there, the reason product support for windsurfing gear is poor is because the manufacturers are not making enough margin.

So based on 10k to set up a brand new foil kit, you think Olympic competitors should be prepared to pay 30k per kit in order to ensure spares are available. I wonder if that's in the submissions to WS

Since no one windsurfs on the selection panel , the Lt has a more colourful sail design and maybe they will go for the bling !

Windsurfer Lt still doing it standing up regardless of Olympic Selection !

Numbers on start line is proof

windsurfer Lt making windsurf colourful again

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windsufering said..
Since no one windsurfs on the selection panel , the Lt has a more colourful sail design and maybe they will go for the bling !

Windsurfer Lt still doing it standing up regardless of Olympic Selection !

Numbers on start line is proof

windsurfer Lt making windsurf colourful again

The other thing is that the Foil is not an international class at present. The LT is and the selection panel can relate to that more than the non-recognised classes. The attraction of freestyle and slalom will also be of great moment. An Olympics with LT will be great..

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Chris249 said..
There was a very strange thing going under the name of i-foil but it seems to have vanished. I can't find any info about either foiler.

The decision to dump the RSX was reasonably close but rather odd considering that it's the second most popular and widespread class, and the only class that is more popular and widespread (the Laser) overwhelmingly won the vote.

It's hard to see why the Glyde would be anything more than a marginal improvement in performance, with massive economic cost. The LT would be a nightmare from some angles. Foiling seems to be unproven in Olympic sailing conditions, and Marseille is going to be very light as far as I know.

Why would the LT be a nightmare ? If Marseille is going to be very light sub 8 knots the LT would be better than the foil.

I like the LT and have one plus a race foil and foil board. If 2024 is going to be superlight then it really restricts who would be competitive in the LT since it is relatively weight senstitive. They woudnt be having weight divisions given the restriction on numbers imposed by the IOC. The foil would also be weight sensitive but ? not at the same level as the LT

Reading this article it seems both Australia and NZ played a key role in arguing for the RSX to be replaced. Given Australian Sailing played a role in bringing about change I hope they get behind and really support whatever class it is that gets selected.

www.sail-world.com/news/217615/Laser-voted-in-for-2024-Paris-Olympic-Sailing

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AUS 814 said..
I like the LT and have one plus a race foil and foil board. If 2024 is going to be superlight then it really restricts who would be competitive in the LT since it is relatively weight senstitive. They woudnt be having weight divisions given the restriction on numbers imposed by the IOC. The foil would also be weight sensitive but ? not at the same level as the LT

65-70kg would be the weight of the top sailors in the LT if there are no weight divisions. That would have been around Robby Naish's weight back in the 80s when he was tops in course racing maybe he would be about 75 kg now but not sure. Tim Gourlay is about 68 kg and is a former national LT champion. I expect the weights competitive in Mistral One Design were about the same as is RSX although Dorian is 75kg. Probably same in all classes.

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cammd said..
Reading this article it seems both Australia and NZ played a key role in arguing for the RSX to be replaced. Given Australian Sailing played a role in bringing about change I hope they get behind and really support whatever class it is that gets selected.

www.sail-world.com/news/217615/Laser-voted-in-for-2024-Paris-Olympic-Sailing

LOL Aust did vote for formula and then for kite boarding , not surprised but I know aust is very happy with the fleet
sizes spawning all round the country of the Lt .
if numbers is anything to go by the Lt is looking very good

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windsufering said..

cammd said..
Reading this article it seems both Australia and NZ played a key role in arguing for the RSX to be replaced. Given Australian Sailing played a role in bringing about change I hope they get behind and really support whatever class it is that gets selected.

www.sail-world.com/news/217615/Laser-voted-in-for-2024-Paris-Olympic-Sailing

LOL Aust did vote for formula and then for kite boarding , not surprised but I know aust is very happy with the fleet
sizes spawning all round the country of the Lt .
if numbers is anything to go by the Lt is looking very good

Sarah Kenny the Australian representative on World Sailing mentioned in the article is a former Windsurfer One Design champion. I expect she will be well behind the LT.

Apart from the Rsx the Lt is the only international class up for selection !
the extra money that yachting Australia gets some people say is saving yachting Aust

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windsufering said..
Apart from the Rsx the Lt is the only international class up for selection !
the extra money that yachting Australia gets some people say is saving yachting Aust

I think Australians will perform better in LT too and there will be and already is much much more interest in the LT than the RSX relatively in Australia. This will play out globally very well.