Select to expand quote

westozwind said..

elmo said..

Make sure you have an appalling rope attached

Thanks Elmo. What's so appalling about your rope?

Just in case you didn't twig

Uphaul rope (you may have to ask someone what one of those is as I imagine it's been a while for you)

Select to expand quote

Sputnik11 said..
I've used a 5.5 and 6.6. The wind hasn't been great on any session yet. I feel more in control when powered up a bit than when its really light. Get used to sheeting out. Test and learn. You'll do a lot of that, which is why it's so much fun.

How much sail power is going through the arms/harness? Can you use the harness for most of the load and sail one handed?

Select to expand quote

elmo said..

westozwind said..

elmo said..

Make sure you have an appalling rope attached

Thanks Elmo. What's so appalling about your rope?

Just in case you didn't twig

Uphaul rope (you may have to ask someone what one of those is as I imagine it's been a while for you)

Auto correct error ;) The king still uses one and I have them on all my booms. Has come in handy a few times, mainly for securing kit to board after pilot errors/gear failure and towing purposes as well. It's going to get more of a work out now!

I think it's here to stay..

Select to expand quote

Mr Milk said..

Sputnik11 said..
I've used a 5.5 and 6.6. The wind hasn't been great on any session yet. I feel more in control when powered up a bit than when its really light. Get used to sheeting out. Test and learn. You'll do a lot of that, which is why it's so much fun.

How much sail power is going through the arms/harness? Can you use the harness for most of the load and sail one handed?

Its quite a different load to regular sailing. I think once you're proficient the harness will take almost all the load, but for now the sail provides balance especially to control the nose of the board as it tends to ride up leading to nose dive and face plant. The back hand is a bit like a throttle controlling the power. Small adjustments mean big reactions with the great i find. Everything has to work in unison.

Select to expand quote

Mr Milk said..

Sputnik11 said..
I've used a 5.5 and 6.6. The wind hasn't been great on any session yet. I feel more in control when powered up a bit than when its really light. Get used to sheeting out. Test and learn. You'll do a lot of that, which is why it's so much fun.

How much sail power is going through the arms/harness? Can you use the harness for most of the load and sail one handed?

Its quite a different load to regular sailing. I think once you're proficient the harness will take almost all the load, but for now the sail provides balance especially to control the nose of the board as it tends to ride up leading to nose dive and face plant. The back hand is a bit like a throttle controlling the power. Small adjustments mean big reactions with the great i find. Everything has to work in unison.

Select to expand quote

DavidJohn said..
I think it's here to stay..

Oh its here to stay. Save up fellas.

So I joined this band wagon and am after some insight from those of you with production foils regarding dynamics. Mine is a home built setup so it's difficult to know whether the dynamics are a function of design or foiling itself. I've had 4 sessions now and have it pretty well trimmed in but find the following;

It's quite difficult to sail off the wind, speed is higher and I find that I have to really get the weight and rig forward to keep the nose down. Obviously there is more lift at speed but I think I might have a bit of a lift imbalance between the front and rear wings. Rear wing generates too much lift with speed relative to the front. Is this common? Do you all find the trim balance moves around a lot with board speed/sailing angle changes?

I think ultimately I might have gone too aggressive with the rear wing, I used an asymmetric profile and looking at a few production foils I saw at the lake on the weekend they tend to have symmetric or close to symmetric rear wing profiles. This may lead to a more neutral trim throughout the full speed range. That said obviously off the wind the force vectors are quite different and you probably don't need as much lift from the rear wing. There are sweet spots where my setup is mint, trying to see if I can make the sweet spot bigger!

Interested on everyone's' experience anyway and man is it good fun!! windsurfing in 8-12kts has never been so entertaining.

Just as a clarification but you seem to describe an imbalance in lift between front and back wings.
the rear wing is upside down and produces negative lift which is counterbalanced by forward weight of you on your board.
so centre of lift and balance is the front wing and pitch control and attitude are via the manipulation of the 2 down forces of rear wing and your weight.
think of standing on a seesaw with a block on one end and you position yourself to balance seesaw level.
You probably got it right and I just read it wrong. But I get a few questions in this regard so hopefully someone will get something useful if of this answer.

Yes perhaps I didn't explain that overly clearly, the 'lift' from the rear wing is in fact acting opposite to that of the front, however in terms of it's moment generated about the fin box, that moment is actually acting in the same direction of rotation.

Basically resolving around the moments around the fin box in an overly simplified way for steady state flight you have;

M_front-wing+M_rear-wing = M_mastfoot-pressure + M_body-weight(this could probably be -ve if you hung far enough off the back).

Now, obviously in all conditions both sides of this equation need to balance.

My question is; are the production foils so well developed that as speed increases does M_front-wing+M_rear-wing increases directly proportionally to M_mastfoot-pressure leading to little adjustment of M_body-weight (ie moving). I'm thinking no as it's such a dynamic system. IE sailing off the wind M_wings is very high due to the higher speed but M_mastfoot-pressure is much lower in relative terms.

However, I could be very wrong.

TLDR; Potentially my rear wing is too big.

As for production foils there are quite a few that do require fine tuning of rear wing to suit riders and perhaps the speed range they operate in.
some supply extra hardware to do this some expect you to work it out yourself.
i have no experience in this as have only owned Zeeko foils that don't require tuning of rear wing and are comfortable well towards 30kts of speed. They do however have the vertical stabiliser fin that can be changed to alter turning ease v's high speed stability.

With the two different types of board fixtures ie, plate fitting or deep Tuttle does one have an advantage over the other in regards to performance or tuning?
Im not comparing the strength of the systems but the accuracy of the angle or the ability to adjust the angle of the mast relative to the board.
Is it important that the mast be at the same angle consistently or is the ability to adjust the angle beneficial?

it's more the angle of the "plane" (fuselage+wings) that needs to be parallel with the board rather than the mast angle.
(even though most of the foils' masts are perpendicular with the fuselage)

some foils have inclined masts to forward the front wing and make the foil adaptable to standard (non dedicated) boards

There is an advantage to being able to move foil forward and aft. So plate mount onto tracks is the best option.
just Tuttle has a pile of durability issues so strengthening has to be done.
Tuttle plus plate reduces the load on the Tuttle box about 70% so this is an option for fitting a foil to a board with unknown Tuttle box strength.

Hey look! Moths lean INTO the wind now. Windward.

And catapult. See around the 0:45 mark. There are a few.

Whats the dangly pole on the front of the boat hitting the water ?
It doesn't seem to be connected to anything .
That got me thinking ... ( nooooo ) !
In a windsurfing application , if you had the same thing with a small paddle skimming the water , mechanically connected to an adjustable rear foil to adjust board trim.... ???
And im not even drinking

yes, there is a mechanical linkage between the Wand hanging off the bow and the main foil. With the hull in the water
the Wand is pushed backwards, increases the foil angle, increases lift to get the hull out of the water.... once the hull is out of the water, the rod becomes more vertical, less foil needed and ? more speed. The angle of the foil on the rudder is adjusted by turning the tiller extension. They have alsways had the windward heel

Thought this might be useful for anyone learning the ropes (like me) from an expert.

Actually meant this one

Has anyone tried the NP foil , thinking about it.
Im heavy and a foil virgin.

Had a great session today with the 6.6m up at Green Point in Melbourne. The wind was an up and down northerly, but had some great flights. Not sure if this video link will work. I filmed on my GoPro, and then filmed on my phone from the computer screen to save mucking around editing. Not great quality. You can see the wash when the board is on the water, and the thin line left by the foil when it's flying.

www.facebook.com/damien.woods1/videos/10154827497217546/

@Imax1: I am heavy as well (100 kg) and a foil beginner too. I ride the Starboard Foil GT in combination with the Starboard Windfoil 147. This is a great combination (for me) since the board has enough volume, is very forgiving in handling, the "flipper landing" is not to hard because of the board lenght of 241 cm, and the foil has enough lift to carry even a heavy sailor (mast: 85 cm, front wing: 800 cm2, back wing: 330 cm2). I managed to fly on the second attempt on day 1. The setup ("flying angle" of the board) with that foil is mainly done over the strap position instead of the angle of the rear wing. Based on my GPS watch: as a heavy guy, it takes about 18 km/h for the take off combined with a soft kick on the board with the back foot. Lighter sailors may automatically take off at about 15 km/h. So it is not one of the early take-off-foils but it stays easy to handle at higher speeds. Ok, the board combination works best with larger sails (to be exact: there is almost no difference of the sail size in comparison to regular windsurfing on that board). I head from a friend of mine who is an experienced foiler that the NP foil (F4 = carbon version) is more difficult to handle for a foil beginner (the mast is 95 cm) and the shape is more speed-oriented (= not so stable). That's why I decided to order the Starboard combination - and did not regret it yet I can not say anything about the JP alu foil since it seems to be not available in Europe yet.

That's my stuff (with Point-7 ACX 9 m2):


Greetings from Switzerland

Select to expand quote

Imax1 said..
Has anyone tried the NP foil , thinking about it.
Im heavy and a foil virgin.

NP foil is very stable but due to it's medium size front wing it needs wind to get going (12knts+ at your/our weight).
You need to start planing before it lifts.

I own one and have mixed feelings about it.
Pros:
ultra stable
cheap

Cons :
needs more wind than others foils/hard to keep in the air in 8/10knts
lots of back leg
needs imperial bolts on the head
metric titanium bolts at bottom are cheap quality
whistles like hell when in the air (fixed by heavy sanding or applying tape on one trailing edge)

I asked about the possibility of NP making a larger front wing for earlier take off, not likely to happen as they tried and the fuselage couldn't handle the load and bent.

I was fortunate to try the Select carbon foil yesterday, ..... I nearly threw my NP in the bin !
Take off without planning, unreal ! Speed and stability unmatched, you can actually fly as fast as you want at the altitude you choose with zero stress !
down side : Close to three times the price of the NP

^^^
Thanks CH68 and seanhogan,
Thanks to your advice will give the NP a miss.
The NP fuselage did look very spindly .
Mabee ill wait a little longer until someone makes a cheaper model for heavier sailors.

Select to expand quote

seanhogan said..

Imax1 said..
Has anyone tried the NP foil , thinking about it.
Im heavy and a foil virgin.

NP foil is very stable but due to it's medium size front wing it needs wind to get going (12knts+ at your/our weight).
You need to start planing before it lifts.

I own one and have mixed feelings about it.
Pros:
ultra stable
cheap

Cons :
needs more wind than others foils/hard to keep in the air in 8/10knts
lots of back leg
needs imperial bolts on the head
metric titanium bolts at bottom are cheap quality
whistles like hell when in the air (fixed by heavy sanding or applying tape on one trailing edge)

I asked about the possibility of NP making a larger front wing for earlier take off, not likely to happen as they tried and the fuselage couldn't handle the load and bent.

I was fortunate to try the Select carbon foil yesterday, ..... I nearly threw my NP in the bin !
Take off without planning, unreal ! Speed and stability unmatched, you can actually fly as fast as you want at the altitude you choose with zero stress !
down side : Close to three times the price of the NP

The Naish foil set up appears to go in 10knts and Robbie was on a 4.7. Has anyone got one of these yet? How does it go in the hands off a not so legend?

For heavier guys and lighter winds the manta could be a good cheap option, mate of mine has ordered the 2018 model.
announced with reinforced mast and possibility to fit the "easyflight" extra wide wing
loaded with plenty of smart options (adjustable stab/mast plate/welded mast head/carry case)

Should be here in a week or so.

I have the 2016 which had really early take off but soft mast (flexy in flight), the 2017 was slightly better strength wise (still saw some heavy guys bend it) and faster.
I inserted carbon rods in mine and it's holding my weight without bending :-)

Will do small report when it's here.

www.mantafoils.com/e-shop/Manta-mono-Windfoil-p87568129

The more research i do on foils the more i find they all have durability problems for heavier sailors . It seems nobody has made a bullet proof one yet. Also problems with fin boxes. Why cant anyone beef one up a little with a base plate that fits in the twin US box system. Easy to modify an old board to get people into it cheaply. I dont want to spend top dollar on a fancy carbon foil and a specific board to see if foiling is for me. Also i shudder to think of the damage to a fin box ( no matter how reinforced ) when hitting the ground. I for one dont have a lazy $ 6000.00 laying around and if i did id buy a new quiver of NP V8s It seems i cant just buy a $ 1000.00 foil and stick it on an old board. Im sure soon someone will build a cheap solid beginner foil for me.

I am 95kg and been using the Naish Thrust Windsurf and Hover 122. Definitely gets going in under 10kn with a 5.3m. Foil is super durable and had no issues even after taking some beating going through the surf. It is a very easy and stable foil set up.

Here is a vid that I have posted before and goes for ages, but will show you me riding off Long Reef. The beginning is about 8kn, then slowly increasing to about 12kn. Excuse the music. (it's long because I wanted to show entire runs, not just edits).



Enjoy,

JB

^^^
Nice !

How much is the foil ?
and board ?

^^^
Thanks Windgenuity.
Mmmmm, now it s got me thinking again. Got a second hand cheap demo floating around ?

sorry only for facebook users

supposedly how to get rid of the screaming noise on np foils

www.facebook.com/neilprydewindsurfing/videos/1522173717826145/