This seems just SO much better than the yellow box. Hopefully it will be received well enough to keep it in production for a while.
A lot of the alternate gps watches have BT/WiFi upload to sites that log/display tracks etc (eg Strava) so not sure whether non windsurfing people will want it.

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Decrepit
Good one Andrew, it's a bit hard to see how they've waterproofed it though. I think we'll have to look after that cable, may be hard to get another one.

Most of the gps golf watches have a similar alligator clip as does Garmin Forerunner

agree with you Yoyo, they could've made it a bit more "fancy" to sell more of them to a diversified public.

Hear rate and different sport menus would've been nice.

I have a Ezon GPS watch from China it lasts about three months just in watch mode and 8hrs with GSP or BT on. Its similar to the new GW-60 so I emailed Ezon and asked what size battery has it got as there is no info online. I got a email today saying its only a 180mAh battery so the GW-60 with its 250mAh battery should be good. The Ezon probably just runs on 1Hz but the GW-60 with its bigger battery it should be fine.
Also the Ezon is 5ATM and I wear it all the time sailing and its never got water in it.

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seanhogan said..
agree with you Yoyo, they could've made it a bit more "fancy" to sell more of them to a diversified public.

Hear rate and different sport menus would've been nice.

Hmmm, maybe, but it could also have added a lot to the cost.

Then again, if they sell a lot more of them with the extra features, it would make a difference.

The Garmin Forerunner 25 comes in different models and different sizes (male /female ) at A$220 or A$270 with HR monitor.

I think Locosys is doing it correctly. First, have the functions it KNOWS will sell to windsurfers. It would be difficult if not impossible for them to go head to head with the "name" brands in markets they have established. Garmin etc would have much greater economies of scale so you would be competing against better product for same cost as well as Name recognition.

Locosys was the one company that was willing to tailor a product for our uses. They deserve our support. Having said that if they could also have a model with a HR monitor in the wrist band then they may sell some more and if they had additional/optional software they might expand their market as well.

I agree yoyo. And it is likely that is in their future plans.

Looks pretty much the same as the Suunto Ambit 2 I have, which seems to work fine. Have ordered my new GW60, so if anyone is after an Ambit, let me know !

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sailquik said..

decrepit said..
Good one Andrew, it's a bit hard to see how they've waterproofed it though.

I think we'll have to look after that cable, may be hard to get another one.

The contacts look a lot like the old Foretrex 201 we used in the old days. No real issues with that part of them.

I am sure Locosys will be able to supply replacement cables.

From memory I think they were gold plated.

On the question of economies of scale I saw this today. (I know this is for smart watches )

.The Apple Watch remained the market leader but it shipped just over one million units in the third quarter of 2016 (July - September). During the same period in 2015, it shipped 3.9 million.
.Garmin was the only brand to show growth with shipments of 0.6 million in the third quarter of 2016 compared with 0.1 million in 2015
.Samsung shipped 0.4 million of its Gear and Gear2 watches in both 2015 and 2016
.Lenovo, which makes the Motorola branded Moto 360, suffered the biggest drop with shipments down by 73.3%
.Pebble also slowed from 0.2m to 0.1m shipments.

Looks a really risky market Apple down to just 25% of the previous year whilst Garmin got a 600% increase in the same period!

Wonder how many GW-60s will get sold

10 ?

Some new photo's send from Locosys

I think I'm salivating!

So let me get this right.....no other watch works when sailing with an under arm grip but this one does ????

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AUS4 said..
So let me get this right.....no other watch works when sailing with an under arm grip but this one does ????

Well we don't know yet, that's still to be tested. But there is speculation that the antenna is in the strap under the "GPS" logo. As the antenna is the same size as the GW52, there's not room for it in the watch. If this is the case, the under over arm may not make a lot of difference. If it's a problem it should be easy enough to extend the strap and wear it on the upper arm.

We also don't really know about all the other watches, not enough testing has been done on them either.

Spot on Decrepit, no other place to put it (sorry for the blurry picture)

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decrepit said..




There is speculation that the antenna is in the strap under the "GPS" logo.

Mike, I'm pretty sure the antenna will be in the watch case like my Ezon watch the band starts where yellow turns to black so all the goods are water proof.

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seanhogan said..
Spot on Decrepit, no other place to put it (sorry for the blurry picture)

What watch is (was? ) that?

trainer by canmore, bad connection on the antenna, made it worse when removing it

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seanhogan said..
trainer by canmore, bad connection on the antenna, made it worse when removing it

Results from 60 on water session with Garmin 920XT I have done and have not once shown any result issues when uploading file to KA 72 compared to GW52 which is worn on upper arm in an aqua pack. The GW52 continues to give the faster results in all catergories.

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Cocky2 said..
Results from 60 on water session with Garmin 920XT I have done and have not once shown any result issues when uploading file to KA 72 compared to GW52 which is worn on upper arm in an aqua pack. The GW52 continues to give the faster results in all catergories.

Same with my Garmin Fenix. 30 or 40 sessions and not one spike or anomaly. The Garmin produces slightly slower numbers and less distance than my GT31, which I also wear for comparison. The difference between the two is negligible, however,the Garmin is consistently slower in all categories.

I wonder how transparent the testing and results of this new Locosys watch will be. What exactly is the process?

nice to see the mods removed some overly emotional posts and restored the thread back to sanity. Thanks. Now can we get back to my question regarding the process of testing a new device?

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vando said..

Stretchy said..
my hand's up for any GT31s being pensioned off

I have 2 GT31s ones only been used twice.
pm me if your interested

Yeah Vando, I bet they were only driven to church on Sundays

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AUS4 said..
So let me get this right.....no other watch works when sailing with an under arm grip but this one does ????

Rick I'm not sure it's about antenna position but more the fact the GW-60 seems to be the only watch that can record data in DOPPLER format which makes it different to anything else available. This alone suggests it's a genuine player for our sport so our numbers can be verified from this critical information that is recorded. Obviously this is all yet to be tested but it's basically the GW-52 in a watch format which is what we have all wanted for so long now. Not sure where all the negativity on this thread has come from? This is looking like the exact thing we all wanted - finally.


The GW-60 Log Record includes: UTC time, position, altitude, Doppler Speed over ground, Doppler vertical speed, satellites used, Standard Deviation of Speed (SDOS) Speed sample resolution: 1 cm/s
SDOS resolution: 1 cm/s
Typical accuracy of 10s average speed measurement: ~3 cm/s, 99.7% certainty
Accuracy of specific measurement can be determined from SDOS of speed samples used to compute average speed.


I can't see any other GPS watch currently available that has this information to confirm the accuracy of our divisions. I'm happy to stand corrected.
Cheers
Marty

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N1GEL said..
nice to see the mods removed some overly emotional posts and restored the thread back to sanity. Thanks. Now can we get back to my question regarding the process of testing a new device?

You've managed to p*** enough people off that are respected within their own communities, that they felt the need to vent their opinion. And now their posts are removed, and yours is kept.

Congratulations.

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mathew said..

N1GEL said..
nice to see the mods removed some overly emotional posts and restored the thread back to sanity. Thanks. Now can we get back to my question regarding the process of testing a new device?

You've managed to p*** enough people off that are respected within their own communities, that they felt the need to vent their opinion. And now their posts are removed, and yours is kept.

Congratulations.

Hmmmm, I tried to answer Nigels question, and it's been removed. This may be my last seabreeze post, I'm fairly pissed at the moment. I mellow out in a few days!

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MartinF2 said..

AUS4 said..
So let me get this right.....no other watch works when sailing with an under arm grip but this one does ????

Rick I'm not sure it's about antenna position but more the fact the GW-60 seems to be the only watch that can record data in DOPPLER format which makes it different to anything else available. This alone suggests it's a genuine player for our sport so our numbers can be verified from this critical information that is recorded. Obviously this is all yet to be tested but it's basically is the GW-52 in a watch format which is what we have all wanted for so long now. Not sure where all the negativity on this thread has come from? This is looking like the exact thing we all wanted - finally.


The GW-60 Log Record includes: UTC time, position, altitude, Doppler Speed over ground, Doppler vertical speed, satellites used, Standard Deviation of Speed (SDOS) Speed sample resolution: 1 cm/s
SDOS resolution: 1 cm/s
Typical accuracy of 10s average speed measurement: ~3 cm/s, 99.7% certainty
Accuracy of specific measurement can be determined from SDOS of speed samples used to compute average speed.


I can't see any other GPS watch currently available that has this information to confirm the accuracy of our divisions. I'm happy to stand corrected.
Cheers
Marty

Pretty well spot on Marty.

The GW-60 antenna is the same antenna as used in the GW-52. It is in the watch band and is a proper patch antenna which is 10-15 times better in signal gain than a typical watch or smartphone chip antenna.

There really is not any complex accuracy testing required for the GW-60, as it is the same hardware, and mostly the same software as the GW-52.

That hardware and software has already been comprehensively tested in controlled conditions and it's capabilities are well known. This was mainly done by Dr. Tom Chalko and was no small task at all. It took him many weeks and a great deal of effort and skill, to say the least.

Briefly:

First, multiple devices were subject to geostationary side by side testing. This can give us the actual accuracy range but it relies on all filtering being turned off. (not possible with many devices)

The GW-52 was then put then through hundreds of km's of controlled side by side moving testing with 6 devices. All the devices are all mounted with the same sky orientation and fixed on the same plane. The millions of data points were run through software that compares every single point with the same time stamp for all devices to quantify variations, and compares that to the reported Doppler error values.

This does a number of things.

It validates that the real results are within the reported error values and it finds the frequency of any values outside it (if any). It also gives significant data of the possible variation between devices. It does this over varying atmospheric conditions, satellite constellation patterns, satellite numbers, varying speeds within the windsurfing target range, varying accelerations and in different directions.

One key aspect of this is that all the data is validated against the reported error values ('SDOP'). This means that in actual stand alone use, the SDOP value can be used in reverse to validate the data generated. This last step is the key reason why we can not have the same confidence in any data generated from non 'SDOP' devices, even after similar extensive testing. We might have statistics of the tested error range and frequency, but we have no way of knowing when any individual result is within an acceptable range. In effect, that is what SDOP tells us.

That data has since been confirmed in many real life windsurfing side by side tests, again in carefully controlled conditions.

The GW-60 will be tested to see what effect wearing it on the wrist has on the integrity of the data, the magnitude and rate of errors. It will be worn in different positions and compared with GW-52's worn in the standard positions on the head and arm. We will of course, also test multiple GW-60's worn side by side in various positions. It is possible, and perhaps even likely, that in some situations with wrist wearing, (such as Alphas for example), we will see an increase in errors, and possibly errors that are outside the filters of the analysis software that cause some results to be rejected. We will be looking at the extent and frequency of any such errors and this may or may not lead to some recommendations for use.

This is one area where enthusiastic sailors can possibly help us to gather data. All you would need is a GW-52 and a GW-60 (or two GW-60's) worn as requested and some careful recording of that, and conditions, for each session.

Edit: If anyone is particularly interested in more details or clarifications of what I have written above, Please PM or email me. Please do the same if you wish to offer your help for testing when the devices arrive and the time comes.

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sailquik said..

Pretty well spot on Marty.

The GW-60 antenna is the same antenna as used in the GW-52. It is in the watch band and is a proper patch antenna which is 10-15 times better in signal gain than a typical watch or smartphone chip antenna.

There really is not any complex accuracy testing required for the GW-60, as it is the same hardware, and mostly the same software as the GW-52.

That hardware and software has already been comprehensively tested in controlled conditions and it's capabilities are well known. This was mainly done by Dr. Tom Chalko and was no small task at all. It took him many weeks and a great deal of effort and skill, to say the least.

Briefly:

First, multiple devices were subject to geostationary side by side testing. This can give us the actual accuracy range but it relies on all filtering being turned off. (not possible with many devices)

The GW-52 was then put then through hundreds of km's of controlled side by side moving testing with 6 devices. All the devices are all mounted with the same sky orientation and fixed on the same plane. The millions of data points were run through software that compares every single point with the same time stamp for all devices to quantify variations, and compares that to the reported Doppler error values.

This does a number of things.

It validates that the real results are within the reported error values and it finds the frequency of any values outside it (if any). It also gives significant data of the possible variation between devices. It does this over varying atmospheric conditions, satellite constellation patterns, satellite numbers, varying speeds within the windsurfing target range, varying accelerations and in different directions.

One key aspect of this is that all the data is validated against the reported error values ('SDOP'). This means that in actual stand alone use, the SDOP value can be used in reverse to validate the data generated. This last step is the key reason why we can not have the same confidence in any data generated from non 'SDOP' devices, even after similar extensive testing. We might have statistics of the tested error range and frequency, but we have no way of knowing when any individual result is within an acceptable range. In effect, that is what SDOP tells us.

That data has since been confirmed in many real life windsurfing side by side tests, again in carefully controlled conditions.

The GW-60 will be tested to see what effect wearing it on the wrist has on the integrity of the data, the magnitude and rate of errors. It will be worn in different positions and compared with GW-52's worn in the standard positions on the head and arm. We will of course, also test multiple GW-60's worn side by side in various positions. It is possible, and perhaps even likely, that in some situations with wrist wearing, (such as Alphas for example), we will see an increase in errors, and possibly errors that are outside the filters of the analysis software that cause some results to be rejected. We will be looking at the extent and frequency of any such errors and this may or may not lead to some recommendations for use.

This is one area where enthusiastic sailors can possibly help us to gather data. All you would need is a GW-52 and a GW-60 (or two GW-60's) worn as requested and some careful recording of that, and conditions, for each session.

Edit: If anyone is particularly interested in more details or clarifications of what I have written above, Please PM or email me. Please do the same if you wish to offer your help for testing when the devices arrive and the time comes.

What exactly is the big improvement between this device and the GT-31?
Is it just that its a watch???
Thats not much of an improvement
What is there to be gained by being able to see your 2sec speed?
Do you think you'll be maxed out, then look at watch and realize how slow your actually going, then you'll be able to just go faster. .....
I guess so, when i do my 100m sprints, i usually look at my watch, and realize i need to run faster even though im already trying my best, but since i looked at my data on my watch i somehow miraculous all of a sudden can now run faster......
An improvement would have been different data
Like showing you your current hr avg as your sailing
Your best alpha
A visible sess odometer
An option to set it up to measure your nm and give you feed back on that whilst sailing
And help with the alpha....possibly helping you map your 250m in and out and how far downwind from your starting pt.....
Ive broken a lot of watch bands in life......sometimes break bands wiping out, is there some sorta warranty against breaking the band and losing the thing while just doing what you bought it for, like windsurfing and occasionally wiping out at decent speeds?

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sammy1 said..
What exactly is the big improvement between this device and the GT-31?
Is it just that its a watch???
Thats not much of an improvement
What is there to be gained by being able to see your 2sec speed?
Do you think you'll be maxed out, then look at watch and realize how slow your actually going, then you'll be able to just go faster. .....
I guess so, when i do my 100m sprints, i usually look at my watch, and realize i need to run faster even though im already trying my best, but since i looked at my data on my watch i somehow miraculous all of a sudden can now run faster......
An improvement would have been different data
Like showing you your current hr avg as your sailing
Your best alpha
A visible sess odometer
An option to set it up to measure your nm and give you feed back on that whilst sailing
And help with the alpha....possibly helping you map your 250m in and out and how far downwind from your starting pt.....
Ive broken a lot of watch bands in life......sometimes break bands wiping out, is there some sorta warranty against breaking the band and losing the thing while just doing what you bought it for, like windsurfing and occasionally wiping out at decent speeds?

The improvements include
1. It is in production, the GT-31 is not.
2. It records your position every 0.2 s, the Gt-31 every 1 sec
3. It is water proof to 50m depth, the GT-31 is maybe splash proof and must be worn in a water proof bag
4. The speed genie on the GW-60 can be adjusted to show Max speed, any average speed (eg 2 sec, 10 sec up to 30sec) and distance
5. The push buttons on the GT-60 will allow you to easily change the display to the time, timer, stopwatch etc

The other desired feedback improvements you cite for alphas, NM, 500m etc are not available on the GW-60 but are available on GPS-Logit on a smart phone