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decrepit said..

Cocky2 said..
>>>

When are they going to be approved?

I'de have thought, that if you've been watching my posts, it would be pretty obvious the process is under way?

As to when, how long is a piece of string?
I'm as eager as anybody to get this unit approved, but I'm sure you wouldn't want any shortcuts taken.
Daffy is out of communication range at the moment, and I'm sure he won't be changing his plans just because of your impatience.

Mike, get in commodore, check it against the speedo and we are good to go

Seriously, you guys spend so much time and effort doing this and I (we) don't even follow half of what you are doing.
Don't let anyone push you, if they're not happy they can go play elsewhere

We really appreciate your effort

Thanks mate!

So here's the overlays. Red is watch, yellow GW52, blue GT31






Again the GW52 seems to have greater 5hz excursions than the watch.

Then approach to the gybe looks a little ragged on the watch graph (probably where I'm swapping my grip,) but it's not much worse than the GW52
Be interesting to see what happens when the watch hand stays overhand.

First sail last Saturday I had the GW-60 in GPS mode for about 4.30 hours not sure if the battery was 100% full but it used two bars out of four most of this time was spent standing around waiting for wind.
Second sail with the GW-60 yesterday battery was charged fully from two days ago.
I sailed for only 1.30 hours and did 31ks and at the end the battery was still showing full with four bars obviously it would have use some power but it does not show the percentage remaining however it seems to have a good power life so far.
Charging on the computer usb took 45min after using it for a short sail yesterday the wall charger would have been quicker.

Just wondering if a mac user out there has already got through these steps could give me a quick what to do for the following?

1 - download session data via MSC mode - Ive set the watch to that mode, but don't know how to then use it to upload;

2 - upgrade the firmware to latest version - I can see the firmware update file and got it in my downloads - how do I then use it to update the watch

sorry if this has already been covered, I couldnt find any specifics

thanks in advance

G'Day Dezza, no it hasn't been answered before and I've been meaning to get around to it.
I'm not a mac user, I run Ubuntu, that has the same problems.

The MSC mode is a tad confusing, I had to read the manual carefully to get it right, but once done a couple of times it's dead easy.
Once plugged into the computer, you hit the adjust button, the display then changes from watch to adjust with "buzzer" selected at the top. hit the "start" button to bring up the version, then hit it again to select "to usb msc" then hit "adjust" again and the watch should then display a connection graphic. No ideas what happens with a Mac, but on this computer a USB icon comes up labeled "locosys MSC," click on that and I get a "GPSLOG.SBP" file. I save that to my windsurfing file and rename it.
It's necessary to rename because this file is always called "gpslog" so it'll want to rewrite any previous file.
To delete the internal data there's two steps.
First go to GPS mode then hit adjust, select yes and hit adjust again. This deletes the log data and distance record.
Then hit start or reset to bring up the speed genie display, do the adjust delete sequence again to get rid of max and average records.

My firmware remains old because there's no way of updating it without windows.
Maybe it'll work on a Mac if you run an emulator, I've no idea how safe that would be, if the update goes wrong you have a small brick instead of a watch.
So saying, I've got an hour or so, I'll log into windows and do the update.

Well didn't take quite an hour but I did ignore the windows update requests.

So here's a very interesting screenshot, it's the 2s peak of the watch and GW52 from yesterday.




The watch is on my trailing hand so has the best sky view, but the GW52 is on my head so should have an even better sky view, but the watch has the best SDoP. Very strange, think I need an expert here to explain this.
Next will be a comparison going the other way.

Easy to explain, the watch is running some pretty aggressive filters to dampen out the arm movement. Obvious from the SDOP being so constant yet the acceleration is varying much more radically. Compare it with GW52 where the SDOP range is greater as the acceleration increases.

thanks very much for the info decrepit.
Ive got as far as getting the connection graphic, but not getting any icon or recognition that the watch is plugged into the mac on the computer itself, its like the mac is not recognising it at all.

I will keep surfing what I can find via google, this problem sounds similar to the dialog on the GW52 and macs, but the gps speed website says its possible to upload from GW60 watch, after updating the firmware, so must be some way of getting there.

Hope we find another mac user who's passed this point :)

I have just managed to get some internet access on a hill near Shark Bay. Read the last couple of pages of posts.. Keep up the good work Decrepit.. . I will be back down your way in a week or so to analyse and discuss with you. I will try to call you soon

re the Mac thing for GW60, this is what I read on gps-speedsurfing

Mac Support The default”USB CLASS/connection setting is "COM" mode (USB virtual COM port connection for utility software) But it can be switched to Mass-Storage-Class (MSC) mode via the GW60 settings menu at any time. Use the Mass-Storage-Class (MSC) mode for access from non-windows devices (for example Mac OSX), change it to this mode in the settings-menu at the watch before connecting it by USB, after that the downloads of session-data can be done via the Mass-Storage-Class (MSC) mode. Make sure that you upgrade the firmware to the latest version (minimum V1.0G1206A) to fully enable this feature !

Ive had a reply back from Rudi of Locosys saying that the firmware update must be done via windows. And then some more info from the team at gps speed surfing just arrived

by GP3S Crew >> 13/12/2016 07:20:54 Hi Derryn,The software for upgrading the firmware is still available for Windows only at this moment, so you have to the upgrade with a Windows machine.You have to download USB Driver, Updater_Installer and the Firmware V1.0G1206Ainstall it on a Windows machine (tested on Windows 10 )make sure the watch is running in COM mode.Connect GW-60 to the computer, after that the watch must be visible in the Update_Installer software Select the firmware file and proceed with the upgrade as described After you upgrade the GW-60, make sure you switch it to Mass-Storage-Class (MSC) mode via the GW60 settings menu. Use the Mass-Storage-Class (MSC) mode for access from non-windows devices (for example Mac OSX), change it to this mode in the settings-menu at the watch before connecting it by USB, after that the downloads of session-data can be done via the Mass-Storage-Class (MSC) mode. When attached the right way to the Mac you have one additional USB device visibile in Finder, on this device you will find the session data in a file with the extension .sbp . We have tested all of this and it's works perfect. (macOS Sierra Version 10.12.1) . We will make a short how-to video in the next days... Software can be found at: www.locosystech.com/en/product/gps-watch-gw-60.html USB Driver
GW-60 Util_Installer
GW-60 Updater_Installer
GW-60 Firmware V1.0G1206A
GW-60 QuickStartGuide_en

so hoping if I can update firmware using someone else's PC, then I should be able to use my macbook to upload session data...

more to come and hopefully a video

Sorry Im a little confused GPS-Speedsurfing have approved this device for Records however Team challenge hasn't

At this moment we have several GPS Devices officially approved for posting Record Sessions on GPS-Speedsurfing.com:
GW-60 (-> www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=gw60 )
GX-52 (-> www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=GX52)
Gyro 1 (-> gearloose.nl )GT-31/BGT-31 (-> www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=GTx )
GT-31/BGT-31 (-> www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=GTx )

www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=GPSInfo

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vando said..
Sorry Im a little confused GPS-Speedsurfing have approved this device for Records however Team challenge hasn't

At this moment we have several GPS Devices officially approved for posting Record Sessions on GPS-Speedsurfing.com:
GW-60 (-> www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=gw60 )
GX-52 (-> www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=GX52)
Gyro 1 (-> gearloose.nl )GT-31/BGT-31 (-> www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=GTx )
GT-31/BGT-31 (-> www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=GTx )

www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=GPSInfo

aaaaaaand we're off....

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vando said..
Sorry Im a little confused GPS-Speedsurfing have approved this device for Records however Team challenge hasn't>>>>

No need for confusion Vando, the answer is simple, they do their thing we do ours.
I've no idea how their accreditation system works, but I suspect they have more people working on it than we do.

As I've explained twice already, Daffy is on a road trip with very limited Internet access.
Two posts before yours he also explained this, saying he will get stuck into it in a weeks time.

So I'm afraid everybody will have to be patient a little longer.

Tried to do all my alphas with an overhand grip, but I'm afraid I kept forgetting, what I was meant to be doing. So I have a mixed bag, some gybes with good SDoP in and out and others with not so good SDoP on the incoming leg.

So if and when the watch gets approved, if you're chasing a PB alpha or a team score, best to practice the overhand grip, so there's no doubt about the score's validity.

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Roo said..
Easy to explain, the watch is running some pretty aggressive filters to dampen out the arm movement. Obvious from the SDOP being so constant yet the acceleration is varying much more radically. Compare it with GW52 where the SDOP range is greater as the acceleration increases.

Thanks Roo, I had a feeling the watch must have more filtering than the GW62.
But we were told the watch is the same as the GW52, maybe that's just the hardware and the firmware has differences.

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decrepit said..

So if and when the watch gets approved, if you're chasing a PB alpha or a team score, best to practice the overhand grip, so there's no doubt about the score's validity.

Or put the watch on upside down.

Or wear it not on your wrist.

Vando. That statement from GPS-SS is referring to PB's and top rankings in their fun rankings. It does not refer to WGPSSRC Records. Just needed to clarify that. Also, Since GPS-SS is not a competition, they operate at a different standard.

The testing of the GW-60 is to find if there are any significant differences between it and the GW-52 on which it is based. In theory, there should not be, but in practice there are bound to be some small things. It should not take long to Determine what they are and work out if they are significant. We also need to work out how reliable results are from wrist wearing as well.. some guidelines may be needed.

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sailquik said..
>>>>
The testing of the GW-60 is to find if there are any significant differences between it and the GW-52 on which it is based. In theory, there should not be, but in practice there are bound to be some small things. It should not take long to Determine what they are and work out if they are significant. We also need to work out how reliable results are from wrist wearing as well.. some guidelines may be needed.

So far my evaluation of the limited test results.
the GW60 numbers sit roughly in between the GT31 and the GW52.
There does seem to be a slight difference between the GW52 and the GW60, it appears, as Roo suggests, that the GW60 has more filtering.
The SdoP is worse when the underhand grip is used, but the actual results aren't that different.

I'll keep collecting data, for your perusal Andrew, you're going to be busy.

Ok looks like a neat package for WS and skiing. But I know zilch about these devices.

All I want from a GPS watch is speed and distance read out. Waterproofing of course.

My questions is will this GPS watch (or any other) work straight out of the box for those basic functions, or does it need to load software?

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Longlines said..
Ok looks like a neat package for WS and skiing. But I know zilch about these devices.

All I want from a GPS watch is speed and distance read out. Waterproofing of course.

My questions is will this GPS watch (or any other) work straight out of the box for those basic functions, or does it need to load software?

Yep, this watch has a few variations mainly designed for or GTC competition.
You can set it up for just real time instantaneous speed, or to read max and average speed since you last reset it, plus max and average speed since you last went under a pre defined speed, this mode scrolls through the above plus distance.
If you want to download the results to a windows computer you need to install the free software from the locosys site. If non windows you just need to be able to read usb storage.

Just done the first lot of number crunching from yesterday, unfortunately it's hard to sort the overhand/underhand thing reliably, because yesterday I kept forgetting. Earlier sessions are all underhand on Port tack, so when I get around to them any difference will be obvious.





Wish I could figure out how to post a spread sheet here without having to take a screen shot, any clues anybody?

There were several runs out of time sequence, so I'll have to practice at how to resort for time not speed, that will make the process quicker.

So there are 2 GW60 results under the GW52 by 0.5 knots, and only a 0.432 difference to the GT31. most of them are much lower.

The +/- numbers are also similar to the GW52.

Next I'll check the alphas in the same way. But not just yet, I need a break.

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sailquik said..

Since GPS-SS is not a competition, they operate at a different standard.

Don't tell the dutch that .
I actually thought we work with GPS-SS on setting GPS standards ect. obviously we don't anymore.
Anyway Hurry up Daffy

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decrepit said..

Longlines said..
Ok looks like a neat package for WS and skiing. But I know zilch about these devices.

All I want from a GPS watch is speed and distance read out. Waterproofing of course.

My questions is will this GPS watch (or any other) work straight out of the box for those basic functions, or does it need to load software?

Yep, this watch has a few variations mainly designed for or GTC competition.
You can set it up for just real time instantaneous speed, or to read max and average speed since you last reset it, plus max and average speed since you last went under a pre defined speed, this mode scrolls through the above plus distance.
If you want to download the results to a windows computer you need to install the free software from the locosys site. If non windows you just need to be able to read usb storage.

Many thanks decrepit for the clear advice.

anyone know how to set the exact time and date? I've set the gmt to Sydney (+10) but I don't know now how to make it the exact time or change the date.
also, with the GT31 having a memory card you didn't need to erase any files and each time you sailed a new file would be added. What is the deal with the 60? Do you have to download your files after each session and then delete that data? What happens if you don't do that? Does it write straight over the top?

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sick_em_rex said..
anyone know how to set the exact time and date? I've set the gmt to Sydney (+10) but I don't know now how to make it the exact time or change the date.
also, with the GT31 having a memory card you didn't need to erase any files and each time you sailed a new file would be added. What is the deal with the 60? Do you have to download your files after each session and then delete that data? What happens if you don't do that? Does it write straight over the top?

It's a GPS watch hooked up to an atomic clock, why do you think you can set it anymore accurately than it sets itself?
Sorry Rex, being facetious, but the manual does say quite clearly, "put in GPS mode, and once it has locked into the satellites, it will set the exact time."

The GW60 memory works roughly like the GT31's internal logger, there's roughly (from my failing memory) about 5hrs data at 5hz, 25hrs @ 1hz.
No new file is created, If you don't delete data, the distance display accumulates, and you have multiple sessions on the file, that then need to be separated.
And yes the oldest data gets deleted as the memory becomes full.

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decrepit said..
Just done the first lot of number crunching from yesterday, unfortunately it's hard to sort the overhand/underhand thing reliably, because yesterday I kept forgetting. Earlier sessions are all underhand on Port tack, so when I get around to them any difference will be obvious.





Wish I could figure out how to post a spread sheet here without having to take a screen shot, any clues anybody?

There were several runs out of time sequence, so I'll have to practice at how to resort for time not speed, that will make the process quicker.

So there are 2 GW60 results under the GW52 by 0.5 knots, and only a 0.432 difference to the GT31. most of them are much lower.

The +/- numbers are also similar to the GW52.

Next I'll check the alphas in the same way. But not just yet, I need a break.

Nice too see the numbers, thanks for posting. Even for the biggest differences between he watch and the GW52, the ranges overlap, which is great. Just eyeballing it, the overlaps actually look a bit better for the GW52-GW60 combo than for GW52-GT31.

More noise in the GW52 data would explain why the 2 second numbers are higher - with speed somewhat constant over several seconds, it's more likely that an "noise peak" is included when the exact 2 second region is selected. This should affect 10 second numbers a lot less than 2 second numbers, so the 10 second numbers should be closer - are they?

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boardsurfr said..

decrepit said..
Just done the first lot of number crunching from yesterday, unfortunately it's hard to sort the overhand/underhand thing reliably, because yesterday I kept forgetting. Earlier sessions are all underhand on Port tack, so when I get around to them any difference will be obvious.





Wish I could figure out how to post a spread sheet here without having to take a screen shot, any clues anybody?

There were several runs out of time sequence, so I'll have to practice at how to resort for time not speed, that will make the process quicker.

So there are 2 GW60 results under the GW52 by 0.5 knots, and only a 0.432 difference to the GT31. most of them are much lower.

The +/- numbers are also similar to the GW52.

Next I'll check the alphas in the same way. But not just yet, I need a break.

Nice too see the numbers, thanks for posting. Even for the biggest differences between he watch and the GW52, the ranges overlap, which is great. Just eyeballing it, the overlaps actually look a bit better for the GW52-GW60 combo than for GW52-GT31.

More noise in the GW52 data would explain why the 2 second numbers are higher - with speed somewhat constant over several seconds, it's more likely that an "noise peak" is included when the exact 2 second region is selected. This should affect 10 second numbers a lot less than 2 second numbers, so the 10 second numbers should be closer - are they?

Here you are going on about this so called 'noise' again!! Totally incorrect. it is simply data.

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sick_em_rex said..
anyone know how to set the exact time and date? I've set the gmt to Sydney (+10) but I don't know now how to make it the exact time or change the date.
also, with the GT31 having a memory card you didn't need to erase any files and each time you sailed a new file would be added. What is the deal with the 60? Do you have to download your files after each session and then delete that data? What happens if you don't do that? Does it write straight over the top?

It is +11 I think due to daylight saving. I have mine set to +11 and I get the correct date and time that might have to change back to +10 when daylight saving changes again.

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boardsurfr said..
>>>> so the 10 second numbers should be closer - are they?

Haven't got around to them, but I suspect you're correct. At the moment I'm more interested in alphas, and how they're affected by the underhand grip.
Because without a change to most of our techniques one tack or the other will be underhand.
For most speed courses we can change which wrist the watch is on, so it's on the trailing arm during the downwind run.

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sailquik said..
>>>>>
Here you are going on about this so called 'noise' again!! Totally incorrect. it is simply data.

I must admit to not being sure about this Andrew, I guess it depends how you define noise. If the 5hz ripple isn't exactly describing the GPS's speed. Then I think it could be termed as noise.
So if the ripple is still there, on a very smoothly running vehicle with no vibration of any sort, then any ripple isn't describing what's actually happening.
And I suspect this will be the case.

The nature of this "noise" is another matter, and it would be good to understand exactly what it is,
interference of some sort, aliasing effects or something else entirely?
We're assuming that the ripple will cancel itself out, and over longer times it probably does, but the shorter the time the less chance there is of complete cancellation
That's why, with the GW52, I'd much rather have a 1s or 2s average and a 10s average and do without the max speed reading, as the peak of the ripple seems to bear very little relation to what's happening.
So far the watch isn't quite as bad.