I'm a pretty average low intermediate windfoiler and a compact geometry board is actually EASIER to sail once you learn how. They don't need any more wind and are easier to up haul for a given length.
So I find the argument that this is going the way of windsurfing in the 90s to be misjudged.

As for winging I agree; it's easier than windfoiling once you are past the beginner stages and speeds are on par with freeride windfoilers.

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Grantmac said..
I'm a pretty average low intermediate windfoiler and a compact geometry board is actually EASIER to sail once you learn how. They don't need any more wind and are easier to up haul for a given length.
So I find the argument that this is going the way of windsurfing in the 90s to be misjudged.

As for winging I agree; it's easier than windfoiling once you are past the beginner stages and speeds are on par with freeride windfoilers.

For the same foils/sails, on the longer hybrid fin/foil Blast board (really fin first, but it's a decent foil board), it was a lot more sensitive to the sail than the compact foilx. I also could feel the wind getting up underneath the nose on some occasions, where I haven't really felt it on the FoilX.

And I can fit it inside my car, which is the greatest benefit

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Paducah said..

r3st0ck said..
... i ride a 132cm / 4'3 board.

You can't say something like that and not include pics.

your right Paducah 75lt,132x61cm, 5kg
there are some more pictures and videos on my insta: www.instagram.com/r3st0ck/

Select to expand quote

Grantmac said..As for winging I agree; it's easier than windfoiling once you are past the beginner stages and speeds are on par with freeride windfoilers.

The speed comparison is interesting.
A few of our local wingers who've been winging since the start (3 years?) now get similar peak speeds to us with similar size foils in optimum winds - but over distance and in marginal or strong winds we're much quicker.
This makes sense to me because there should be an advantage with more efficient windsurf sails and extra control available from mast-base pressure and proper harness technique.
Curious how the speed difference is working out at other locations?


Simon's board is perfect - he really nailed the design, he was thinking it through for ages and it's paid off.
Not too big to keep swing weight to a minimum (yeah, it's a thing Sandman ) and not too small so he can uphaul and get on foil in 12 knots with his feet in the straps. And I reckon it looks epic.
Super-impressive build by Mark of M_Oz Customs - brilliant finish, light-weight and seems plenty robust

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azymuth said..

Grantmac said..As for winging I agree; it's easier than windfoiling once you are past the beginner stages and speeds are on par with freeride windfoilers.

The speed comparison is interesting.
A few of our local wingers who've been winging since the start (3 years?) now get similar peak speeds to us with similar size foils in optimum winds - but over distance and in marginal or strong winds we're much quicker.
This makes sense to me because there should be an advantage with more efficient windsurf sails and extra control available from mast-base pressure and proper harness technique.
Curious how the speed difference is working out at other locations?

I really want to do the math on this but I think that the mast foot will always allow more power to be put down than a wing. All that forward and sideways pull wants to load up the front foot. The mast base relieves that.

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aeroegnr said..I really want to do the math on this but I think that the mast foot will always allow more power to be put down than a wing. All that forward and sideways pull wants to load up the front foot. The mast base relieves that.

I'd be super-interested to see what you come up with. Maths doesn't lie

Thinking more - foil kiters are way faster than even race windfoilers - so could future winging emulate kiting more than windsurfing ??

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boardsurfr said..
This whole discussions reminds me very much of the "smaller is better" trend in windsurfing maybe a couple of decades ago. Sure, the pictures of world class wave sailor in Hawaii were exciting. But the effect was that any board large enough to float you was "uncool", as was any sail 6 m or larger. So many people at regular spots simply ended sitting up on the beach waiting for wind, and many got frustrated and gave up on windsurfing completely.

Some of the trends in windfoil gear seem to follow a similar trend - promoting design changes that benefit a small, but vocal and highly visible group of very skilled experts. The "mast foot closer to the straps" idea mimics what we've seen in freestyle windsurf boards. Fantastic for PWA and EFPT competitors doing double and triple "power" moves. But for more average sailors, what was once a fantastic multi-use board (the ~ 2012 Skate 110) has now become an expert-only board. But at least Fanatic has bucked some of the trends in other products, like the rather long Blasts for windsurfing, and much-loved (but not flashy) Stingrays for windfoiling.

As someone has predicted here a while ago, the vast majority of windfoilers for whom longer board length translates to "excessive swing weight" have transitioned to winging, which gets rid of the "mast foot" and "excessive swing weight" problems completely. I have yet to see a windfoiler who matches the carving abilities of a decent winger, and the "wings are slower" argument is becoming a thing of the past as winger's skills improve and they transition to high aspect foils.

Winging can exceed all performance metrics relative to windfoiling and I still won't switch. I am fascinated by this new discipline and want to be the best windfoiler I can be.

Bringing the foil and sail closer together can make windfoiling easier in some ways.
It is a seperate detail from board length and volume so having a compressed geometry does not mandate a tiny board.

I ride a board that is 7' and 143 liters. With the foil placed forward and the sail moved aft it is very well mannered uphauling and in displacement mode.
I have a choice in how close the foil and sail are to each other. As I have shrunk that distance (now at 24"- 610mm uni to front bolt) the turning, carving, take off and upwind performance has increased. It is also easier to control the pitch as the sail loads change. So I have a very user friendly set up that takes off early and can turn fast and hard. Yes it took some adjusting too.

Simons board is actually conservative for his skill level, he can uphaul it and slog it in if the wind dies. I think Simons carving abilities are above the average wingers.

I get your point boardsurfr. The smaller is better mentatlity of windsurfing drove me away years ago, windfoiling brought me back.

I think these developments discussed here can be used to make windfoiling more fun for the average Joe, if they are applied to a higher volume board. I want to learn from the best and apply what is relevant to create user friendly gear.

All the research efforts are going into winging. If we don't experiment and create the gear we want, it may not happen.

Cheers to the trail blazers!

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azymuth said..

aeroegnr said..I really want to do the math on this but I think that the mast foot will always allow more power to be put down than a wing. All that forward and sideways pull wants to load up the front foot. The mast base relieves that.

I'd be super-interested to see what you come up with. Maths doesn't lie

Thinking more - foil kiters are way faster than even race windfoilers - so could future winging emulate kiting more than windsurfing ??

My gut reaction without doing the work, and I'm probably wrong, is that:Kites will always have an advantage due to higher, cleaner air and much more cloth compared to everyone else, with the downside of the lines making drag. I'm not sure of the magnitude of the forces involved and they seem to pull much more on the center of mass.

Wings have a disadvantage of low aspect shapes to keep them out of the water. There may be a way to do a speed wing design that is asymmetrical, and there may be a way to get more pull out of them with a special harness and controlling them with deforming them kind of like kites, but I'm not sure. You could probably even design an asymmetric wing that inverts when you go on a different tack so that the bottom is flat and the top is longer and higher aspect like a windsurfing sail but it sounds complicated to me. But if you got them asymmetric with a harness that pulled more like a kite and had a control assist of the wing itself, kind of like the control system people are designing for hydrofoils, you could probably put up more cloth with higher efficiency shapes and be competitive with windfoiling or maybe even beat them after a bunch of R&D. It's unclear to me.

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r3st0ck said..

Paducah said..

r3st0ck said..
... i ride a 132cm / 4'3 board.

You can't say something like that and not include pics.

your right Paducah 75lt,132x61cm, 5kg
there are some more pictures and videos on my insta: www.instagram.com/r3st0ck/

Intriguing! Loved this: www.instagram.com/p/CgNMu7Rlabn/

You, 2keen and Mark_australia have inspired me to go find a big chunk of eps to hack at.

Trying to predict what will be faster in the future - wing-foil or wind-foil, is a fools errand.

If you told me 3 years ago that the best slalom wind-foiler would almost always beat the best slalom windsurfer - I would not have believed you, but that is clearly what is happening.

The continued development of water foil sports will be very interesting

the UJ place is something i am wondering about.
I have made a custom board during the covid lockdown two years ago : 175 cm * 65cm * 91L with the mast track starting at 80 cm from the front screw of the dtt.
Same as Simon : the volume of the board is mostly under the feet : that results in good stability for such a small board for uphauling with feet behind the UJ and really good pop up and pumpability to start the flight.

I set the UJ around 90 cm from the front dtt screw. I move the UJ back when the nose goes down when i lean on the sail. (i don't like rear foot feeling)
But when the UJ is too far back i feel that i am flying too high and i can't reach good speed, i can't lean on the sail.
So, how you guys are doing to have a good feeling and good speed with th UJ back?

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Clemop said..

I set the UJ around 90 cm from the front dtt screw. I move the UJ back when the nose goes down when i lean on the sail. (i don't like rear foot feeling)
But when the UJ is too far back i feel that i am flying too high and i can't reach good speed, i can't lean on the sail.
So, how you guys are doing to have a good feeling and good speed with th UJ back?

Interested in responses to this.
Clemop, what foil are you using?

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..
This whole discussions reminds me very much of the "smaller is better" trend in windsurfing maybe a couple of decades ago. Sure, the pictures of world class wave sailor in Hawaii were exciting. But the effect was that any board large enough to float you was "uncool", as was any sail 6 m or larger. So many people at regular spots simply ended sitting up on the beach waiting for wind, and many got frustrated and gave up on windsurfing completely.

Some of the trends in windfoil gear seem to follow a similar trend - promoting design changes that benefit a small, but vocal and highly visible group of very skilled experts. The "mast foot closer to the straps" idea mimics what we've seen in freestyle windsurf boards. Fantastic for PWA and EFPT competitors doing double and triple "power" moves. But for more average sailors, what was once a fantastic multi-use board (the ~ 2012 Skate 110) has now become an expert-only board. But at least Fanatic has bucked some of the trends in other products, like the rather long Blasts for windsurfing, and much-loved (but not flashy) Stingrays for windfoiling.

As someone has predicted here a while ago, the vast majority of windfoilers for whom longer board length translates to "excessive swing weight" have transitioned to winging, which gets rid of the "mast foot" and "excessive swing weight" problems completely. I have yet to see a windfoiler who matches the carving abilities of a decent winger, and the "wings are slower" argument is becoming a thing of the past as winger's skills improve and they transition to high aspect foils.

Agree with the industry killing off windsurfing with smaller is better.

However
If the volume of the boards do not drop too low
And plan shape of a board is still large enough for stability to uphaul

then removing excess length and adding it to the standing area can only be a positive improvement for everyone

Select to expand quote

2keen said..
Great to get so much positive feedback.
Uphauling is easier with the mast base close to the centre of volume, as for tacking its on my to do list as is upwind 360's think I'll wait till it warms up a little. The board gybes on a dime and foils point high so tacking would only be for novelty.
To early to say which board takes off earliest, I have a feeling once I refine my technique it may be the custom. The mast back allows a much more active board pump similar to wingers.
The whole custom process was exciting. It's one thing to have an idea but to have someone produce it "as imagined" is another thing altogether. Credit to Mark!!
It was great getting regular progress pictures seeing the concept evolve. The fact that it performs better than expected is such a bonus

Would you and your shaper consider selling or giving away the CAD files so people could get one made locally?

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Mr Keen said..

Clemop said..

I set the UJ around 90 cm from the front dtt screw. I move the UJ back when the nose goes down when i lean on the sail. (i don't like rear foot feeling)
But when the UJ is too far back i feel that i am flying too high and i can't reach good speed, i can't lean on the sail.
So, how you guys are doing to have a good feeling and good speed with th UJ back?

Interested in responses to this.
Clemop, what foil are you using?

i was using a lokefoil lk1 and now i have a sabfoil kraken 83 with 799 and 399 stab. Slower than the lokefoil but much better for carving in the swell/wake with a very low stall speed and pretty good top speed.
I really love this foil especially for the jibe/duckjibe and carving downwind.

Load changes in the sail often mean that weight is shifted from the front foot to the mast foot, or vice versa. So putting the mast foot close to the front straps is a good way to make a foil board less sensitive to sail effects. I do not doubt that this has advantages for someone with the skills to handle it. The question is how many people will be able and willing to get to this skill level. With windsurfing boards, there was a period where all new boards seemed to be short and wide. I loved some of these shapes, but I also have seen intermediates struggle with them, and ultimately fail. Eventually, boards like the Fanatic Blast that bucked the trend, but where tremendously successful on the market, showed that for many average windsurfers, the "short and wide" trend had gone to far. I just hope the same thing won't happen in windfoiling, where the market is a lot smaller.

Select to expand quote

RuddeBos said..
If the volume of the boards do not drop too low
And plan shape of a board is still large enough for stability to uphaul
then removing excess length and adding it to the standing area can only be a positive improvement for everyone

That seems right at first glance, but it makes a bunch of assumptions that are not always true.

These assumptions include that windfoilers will be able to jibe, and don't care about tacking. That's only true for a subset. Threads here may give a bit of a misleading picture, since we see mostly very good foilers post, and some total beginners. Those of us "stuck in the middle" who have worked on foil jibes for years with limited success tend to be a lot less vocal, for obvious reasons.

The other thing boils down to conditions and other (non-jibe) skills. At "the" spot on Cape Cod, one of the windiest areas on the US East Coast, we often get wind that can ramp up into the high 20s and 30s, only to then drop down into the teens of even lower very quickly (and locally - it may still be quite windy a few miles away). So you're left with voodoo chop that's a few feet high, and very little wind, to slog back through. That does not bother anyone with great skills, but without those skills, slogging a shorter board (like even one of the original Wizards) back can be a major PITA. There are a few good windsurfers here who have bought foil gear, but rarely take it out due the difficult conditions. Those who made it past the beginner stage either where extraordinary learners, learned at easier spots, and/or had "easy" gear like Stingray 140s or formula boards.

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..

Grantmac said..As for winging I agree; it's easier than windfoiling once you are past the beginner stages and speeds are on par with freeride windfoilers.

The speed comparison is interesting.
A few of our local wingers who've been winging since the start (3 years?) now get similar peak speeds to us with similar size foils in optimum winds - but over distance and in marginal or strong winds we're much quicker.
This makes sense to me because there should be an advantage with more efficient windsurf sails and extra control available from mast-base pressure and proper harness technique.
Curious how the speed difference is working out at other locations?


Simon's board is perfect - he really nailed the design, he was thinking it through for ages and it's paid off.
Not too big to keep swing weight to a minimum (yeah, it's a thing Sandman ) and not too small so he can uphaul and get on foil in 12 knots with his feet in the straps. And I reckon it looks epic.
Super-impressive build by Mark of M_Oz Customs - brilliant finish, light-weight and seems plenty robust

Oh, do not get me wrong, swing weight is real, but I just do not believe it negatively affects jibes like people try to say it does. Extra weight in the front of the board should actually help carry the kit through the jibe!

As for the construction and durability of that custom board, good luck, coming from someone as unprofessional as Mark acts on this forum "to me", I can only wonder??

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..
Load changes in the sail often mean that weight is shifted from the front foot to the mast foot, or vice versa. So putting the mast foot close to the front straps is a good way to make a foil board less sensitive to sail effects. I do not doubt that this has advantages for someone with the skills to handle it. The question is how many people will be able and willing to get to this skill level. With windsurfing boards, there was a period where all new boards seemed to be short and wide. I loved some of these shapes, but I also have seen intermediates struggle with them, and ultimately fail. Eventually, boards like the Fanatic Blast that bucked the trend, but where tremendously successful on the market, showed that for many average windsurfers, the "short and wide" trend had gone to far. I just hope the same thing won't happen in windfoiling, where the market is a lot smaller.

I can appreciate your concerns after seeing a friend (still in the learning to foil jibe phase) buy an RRD Pocket Rocket only to find his JP 135 so much easier to sail.

However, the majority of participants in this thread are at a reasonably high level; and have foiled enough and on different kit to appreciate at least a bit of the nuances of different board shapes etc. I'm not seeing much suggestion that the masses should adapt these boards. By analogy, when freestyle windsurfing truly emerged 15-20 yrs ago, board shapes began to evolve as freestylers realized what subtle changes in board design could do. Same in wave sailing a decade or so ago (?) when multi fin boards started to become the norm rather than the exception. Not everyone needs a tri or quad board - certainly many back and forth freeriders are rarely in the conditions to appreciate them. However, for those that do sail in those conditions or do true freestyle, let's just say the Fanatic Blast, for all its virtues, would be the wrong board.

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boardsurfr said..

The other thing boils down to conditions and other (non-jibe) skills. At "the" spot on Cape Cod, one of the windiest areas on the US East Coast, we often get wind that can ramp up into the high 20s and 30s, only to then drop down into the teens of even lower very quickly (and locally - it may still be quite windy a few miles away). So you're left with voodoo chop that's a few feet high, and very little wind, to slog back through. That does not bother anyone with great skills, but without those skills, slogging a shorter board (like even one of the original Wizards) back can be a major PITA. There are a few good windsurfers here who have bought foil gear, but rarely take it out due the difficult conditions. Those who made it past the beginner stage either where extraordinary learners, learned at easier spots, and/or had "easy" gear like Stingray 140s or formula boards.

This is a good point. There is a spot very close to me like you describe. I didn't understand how difficult it was due to ignorance and voodoo chop/swell being much larger than the wind would make elsewhere. It made me wander back to higher volume until my skills get better, leaving the low volume boards for wavesailing or flat water when there are more people around watching me. If I had stayed out there by myself I would never have advanced that far, and probably would have had much more "situations".

i stay on my Uj place wondering : i think the weight of the rider must be considered. being super lightweight (62 kg) If i put the UJ too far back i just can't increase my speed...

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..
By analogy, when freestyle windsurfing truly emerged 15-20 yrs ago, board shapes began to evolve as freestylers realized what subtle changes in board design could do. Same in wave sailing a decade or so ago (?) when multi fin boards started to become the norm rather than the exception. Not everyone needs a tri or quad board - certainly many back and forth freeriders are rarely in the conditions to appreciate them. However, for those that do sail in those conditions or do true freestyle, let's just say the Fanatic Blast, for all its virtues, would be the wrong board.

Funny that you mention freestyle. The Fanatic Skate 110 was my favorite board for 10+ years, and I still like it enough to not spend the money on a new board that I might like a little better. I never did any sliding or power freestyle, but the board was great for things like 360s, and (most importantly) for lawn mowing. It even had outside straps. As sliding moves got replaced by power moves where shorter noses were beneficial, Fanatic dropped the Skate 110, and kept selling only the boards that pro freestylers use. For those who loved the old shape and just dabbled in freestyle, that was a clear loss.

I love windfoiling, and can't see it being replaced by anything else. I still love flat water blasting with a fin, and even the occasional B&J session, but windfoiling takes the fun factor to a completely different level. But for me, that's on moderate gear. Being able to stomp on the front during a tack and stay dry in big chop by far outweighs the potential benefits of turning faster. "Swing weight" for me is a good thing: it means slower board reactions that keep the board under control if I step a bit wrong. Wind grabbing the long nose of my Stingray (or the 8.5 ft slalom board I started on) never was an issue (although I switch to the fin in 25+ knots). I have bought (and tried) several shorter boards, but got rid of them again because for me, their disadvantages outweighed their advantages. I know that there are others on this forum with similar preferences. They just are less outspoken than those with the crazy skills and crazy boards .

That said, the board Mark built looks quite fantastic, and I have no doubts that it will hold up longer than many factory boards. I'm looking forward to see videos of it in action!

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..
Funny that you mention freestyle. The Fanatic Skate 110 was my favorite board for 10+ years, and I still like it enough to not spend the money on a new board that I might like a little better. I never did any sliding or power freestyle, but the board was great for things like 360s, and (most importantly) for lawn mowing. It even had outside straps. As sliding moves got replaced by power moves where shorter noses were beneficial, Fanatic dropped the Skate 110, and kept selling only the boards that pro freestylers use. For those who loved the old shape and just dabbled in freestyle, that was a clear loss.

I love windfoiling, and can't see it being replaced by anything else. I still love flat water blasting with a fin, and even the occasional B&J session, but windfoiling takes the fun factor to a completely different level. But for me, that's on moderate gear. Being able to stomp on the front during a tack and stay dry in big chop by far outweighs the potential benefits of turning faster. "Swing weight" for me is a good thing: it means slower board reactions that keep the board under control if I step a bit wrong. Wind grabbing the long nose of my Stingray (or the 8.5 ft slalom board I started on) never was an issue (although I switch to the fin in 25+ knots). I have bought (and tried) several shorter boards, but got rid of them again because for me, their disadvantages outweighed their advantages. I know that there are others on this forum with similar preferences. They just are less outspoken than those with the crazy skills and crazy boards .

That said, the board Mark built looks quite fantastic, and I have no doubts that it will hold up longer than many factory boards. I'm looking forward to see videos of it in action!

From what I'm reading from your comment is that Fanatic decided to make the Skate line suited to the pure freestyling community and what I'm thinking is more likely with them having two other freeride lines - the Blast and Gecko - it didn't make business sense to duplicate a similar board in the Skate line up.The most recent time I've been around skilled high wind fin riders, most riders were happy with freeride/fsw/wave unless they were truly doing freestyle in which case, the moves they were doing merited a full freestyle board. Big board companies can't be all things to all people and that's one big reason builders like Mark_australia exist.

I understand your reasons for concern, though. However, both the audience and market for these super compact boards is limited which is why at least two of the boards discussed in this thread are customs. If and when Fanatic drops the Stingray and Starboard the regular Foil Freeride line, we can start worrying. .

Knowing you've built your own stuff, iirc, I have no doubt you fully understand and appreciate what Mark and 2keen have done here . Where I sail, most of the time, something shorter than 190ish might be challenging and the benefits, like for you, marginal, but I'm open to exploring the options given the feedback from riders I respect.

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

RuddeBos said..
If the volume of the boards do not drop too low
And plan shape of a board is still large enough for stability to uphaul
then removing excess length and adding it to the standing area can only be a positive improvement for everyone

That seems right at first glance, but it makes a bunch of assumptions that are not always true.

These assumptions include that windfoilers will be able to jibe, and don't care about tacking. That's only true for a subset. Threads here may give a bit of a misleading picture, since we see mostly very good foilers post, and some total beginners. Those of us "stuck in the middle" who have worked on foil jibes for years with limited success tend to be a lot less vocal, for obvious reasons.

The other thing boils down to conditions and other (non-jibe) skills. At "the" spot on Cape Cod, one of the windiest areas on the US East Coast, we often get wind that can ramp up into the high 20s and 30s, only to then drop down into the teens of even lower very quickly (and locally - it may still be quite windy a few miles away). So you're left with voodoo chop that's a few feet high, and very little wind, to slog back through. That does not bother anyone with great skills, but without those skills, slogging a shorter board (like even one of the original Wizards) back can be a major PITA. There are a few good windsurfers here who have bought foil gear, but rarely take it out due the difficult conditions. Those who made it past the beginner stage either where extraordinary learners, learned at easier spots, and/or had "easy" gear like Stingray 140s or formula boards.

There's definitely a lower limit for board size where chop and inconsistent winds are involved. I was at Kalmus (which I assume is the spot you were talking about) on Tuesday, and last week as well, and we had just the conditions you describe - guys flying around on sinkers and 5.0s, and then the wind dropped to 12 and everyone lurched home. I went out and foiled on a 7.0 and a big board until the tide got too low (which I found out by hitting the reef pretty hard), then put a fin in the board and kept sailing. I think the sweet spot for windfoil is going to end up somewhere around 105-135 liter and 180-210cm length, and 72-82 wide. In other words, somewhere between the Pocket Rocket and the JP135. There will always be guys who have the skills and conditions to ride tiny boards in big swells, and guys who ride IQ setups in 30, but for most of us the middle ground will work out as most versatile.

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Awalkspoiled said..
There's definitely a lower limit for board size where chop and inconsistent winds are involved. I was at Kalmus (which I assume is the spot you were talking about) on Tuesday, and last week as well, and we had just the conditions you describe - guys flying around on sinkers and 5.0s, and then the wind dropped to 12 and everyone lurched home. I went out and foiled on a 7.0 and a big board until the tide got too low (which I found out by hitting the reef pretty hard), then put a fin in the board and kept sailing. I think the sweet spot for windfoil is going to end up somewhere around 105-135 liter and 180-210cm length, and 72-82 wide. In other words, somewhere between the Pocket Rocket and the JP135. There will always be guys who have the skills and conditions to ride tiny boards in big swells, and guys who ride IQ setups in 30, but for most of us the middle ground will work out as most versatile.

You were on the custom Tillo and asked me about the Stingray, right? Nice to meet you. Tuesday was a pretty typical day for wind.

As for the board size, I agree that the numbers you give make sense for many average size guys. It can be quite different for lighter sailors, though. For example, my wife switched to her ~ 60 cm wide Skate 89 after her first few windfoil sessions on bigger gear, and was perfectly happy with it. But she belongs to the "quick learning, high skills" category. She had no problems winging on a 33 l kite foil board she wanted to try out a while ago, so I would not take her as an example for what's a good board size for more average foilers!

If you come back to Kalmus in the future, check out Google Earth. You can see the shallow "reefs" quite well:

The nasty part is that it gets deeper between the shore and the shallows between the X marks. Every local foiler I know has found the shallows at least once. Just a few days ago, it got shallow enough that even a windsurfer with a 33 cm fin ran aground. But once you are past the dark areas and stay outside, you can use an 85 cm mast without problems, and usually even a 95 cm mast (unless it's a rare negative tide).

Select to expand quote

Clemop said..
I set the UJ around 90 cm from the front dtt screw. I move the UJ back when the nose goes down when i lean on the sail. (i don't like rear foot feeling)
But when the UJ is too far back i feel that i am flying too high and i can't reach good speed, i can't lean on the sail.
So, how you guys are doing to have a good feeling and good speed with th UJ back?

You can't look at the UJ position in isolation. The geometrical balance of the UJ, foot straps and front wing is key. On your board the front wing and foot straps are fixed, hence there is an optimum UJ position, in your case it's 90cm from the front DT box bolt. If you want to reduce this dimension, you'll have to move either of both of your DT box and foot straps forward to maintain this geometrical balance.

Super nice looking board. Love those long tracks.

Cool! Almost identical dims to what I've been thinking for a custom.

One question I have been debating. Is what are your thoughts on the advantages of the pulled in tail like the freestyle vs the square "race" style tail of the wizard. I've been leaning towards sticking to the squared off tail as I like the wider rear tail for cranking upwind, but maybe the pulled in tail gives a bit more clearance on very banked carving turns?

As its been pointed out, this board isn't for everyone. It is a custom, designed to do a specific thing. As it turns out its spot on!!
I like having the UJ close to the front straps, suits my style of sailing. There is no doubt this compact geometry is not for everyone or every discipline. It points well and feels as fast as my other boards but I usually top out around 20knots, with my average speed being a lot less than that. Its designed to go in circles not fast.
The board was built old school, no CAD files no CNC but I'm happy to share what I've learnt.
Clemop, I reckon John340's right A balanced set up is determined by many factors, rider weight included. If your board had the ability to move the foil and footstraps (possibly inboard) you may find moving the UJ back becomes possible.
I find the square tail makes gybing so much easier. Even the Slingshot Freestyle was technical to gybe because their wasn't much width in the tail.
I hope I encourage as many as possible to windfoil and would hate to think that posting a thread on my custom would scare anyone away.
In my mind the board is not extreme, remember its 110 Litres, uphaulable for me. In context, my previous two wave boards were 74 litres and 83 litres.
Maybee I am part of a vocal group but only because I'm passionate about Windfoiling just want to share the stoke