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philn said..
Not a North Sails owner...

me neither

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Imax1 said..
I was under the impression that you had to use a specific mast that wouldn't work on any other sails due to different diameters and bends compared to the main three types . Apparently you can . Do you need a specific mast base with those masts ?

a few items to unpack there:
* North is pairing the aircam sails (Race/FreeRace/FoilRace) with new MDM (medium diameter) masts. these MDM masts were pioneered by Slake, from Australia, and have been used quite a bit in foil racing.
* the North version of the mast does not "flare out" at the base like the Slake masts, so yes, an MDM mast extension would be needed. (buy hey, when i switched to the Severne cambered sails i'm currently riding, i had to get new extensions too due to the portside rigging). the North mast extension is on the europin system, so unless you have us-base, no new base would be needed.
* as far as the bend curves go, i've seen data on the RDM masts that put the bend curve in the same league as NP masts 490 and under (flextop). i have not seen data for the MDM masts, and would not necessarily bank on them keeping the same curve. for example, NP says their 520 and 550 masts are CC; on the other hand, Point-7 has their 430 as "soft bottom", their 460 as CC, and their 490 as flextop.
* as far as using a different mast; someone i know tried an SDM from another brand that has quick taper. he said the sail rigged ok and aircam rotated well. he didn't say how it sailed...

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Imax1 said..
If I could swap my 6 sail quiver ,( 5.8 - 9.4 ), for 3 , it would make choosing a correct size easier.

Severne just about proposes that to you withe the Mach 6 (and yeah, you'd need new masts and extensions too):

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WindFlyer said..

duzzi said..
Anecdotes.

anecdotes to you, personal knowledge to me (can't speak for Gestalt).
the two people i refer to actually rode the sails beforehand, so they knew what they were getting into when purchasing them and actually considered other less expensive sails. one of them needed to get new masts regardless of final choice; when he did the math for sail/mast combos, he found the North price to be competitive with or even better than the other brands he was considering (popular brands in this forum, but didn't include Point-7).

duzzi said..
People who buy equipment are always positively biased toward what they purchase

whether expensive or not, i do get that (and generally understand why); you yourself provide examples of this time and again.

i also get (while i can't say i understand why, though it may be the flip side of the positive bias you mention) is that in fora like this, some people feel the need to repeatedly dump on product (and by extension on its users) that for whatever reason or rationale they don't like and have zero interest in trying, let alone purchasing and owning; thanks for also providing examples of this.

hum ... you are the one going around claiming that North has come up with magic sails. I am wandering about your claims, not about the North product. And yes, I like my Point-7, I switched to P7 after 20 years on Hot Sails Maui, but never claimed they were the best sails on the market. Certainly they have a massive range of use.

So again: (1) what exactly were the three sail quivers that two North sails allegedly replaced, and (2) how come the comparative test above never mentions anything about a wider range of use?

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duzzi said..

WindFlyer said..

duzzi said..
Anecdotes.

anecdotes to you, personal knowledge to me (can't speak for Gestalt).
the two people i refer to actually rode the sails beforehand, so they knew what they were getting into when purchasing them and actually considered other less expensive sails. one of them needed to get new masts regardless of final choice; when he did the math for sail/mast combos, he found the North price to be competitive with or even better than the other brands he was considering (popular brands in this forum, but didn't include Point-7).

duzzi said..
People who buy equipment are always positively biased toward what they purchase

whether expensive or not, i do get that (and generally understand why); you yourself provide examples of this time and again.

i also get (while i can't say i understand why, though it may be the flip side of the positive bias you mention) is that in fora like this, some people feel the need to repeatedly dump on product (and by extension on its users) that for whatever reason or rationale they don't like and have zero interest in trying, let alone purchasing and owning; thanks for also providing examples of this.

hum ... you are the one going around claiming that North has come up with magic sails. I am wandering about your claims, not about the North product. And yes, I like my Point-7, I switched to P7 after 20 years on Hot Sails Maui, but never claimed they were the best sails on the market. Certainly they have a massive range of use.

So again: (1) what exactly were the three sail quivers that two North sails allegedly replaced, and (2) how come the comparative test above never mentions anything about a wider range of use?

seriously?

all we are doing is repeating what has been said to us by people that actually own the sails and pass on our thoughts on what we actually saw of the sail on the water.

believe it or don't. no one is attacking you.

Coming from the Ezzy Taka wave sail to the 3Di the taka has far more range then 3Di that I'm using.
The ezzy you can have a full low draft or a flat high draft using the downhaul and outhaul.
The 3di that I use has very little downhaul adjustment. (wave sail)
I have over 100 days 200+ hours on mine.
It's lite yes +++++++
It's slowing fading and turning white.-------
With the north mast it was $1500 USD
I'll use it this summer in the bay area and then this coming winter in baja I'll put 200+ more days on it if I'm lucky before I turn it into a drop cloth. We will see....
It's going to be different for everybody it's just sail that is lite with a lite mast.

You guys can bang your D_ck_ all day long about this and that butt in the end it's just a windsurfing sail.

This is all FACTS not me dumping on it

You can look in my profile at the pictures............

Everyone should be grateful there are still companies out there still investing in Windsurfing.

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Gestalt said..

duzzi said..

WindFlyer said..

duzzi said..
Anecdotes.

anecdotes to you, personal knowledge to me (can't speak for Gestalt).
the two people i refer to actually rode the sails beforehand, so they knew what they were getting into when purchasing them and actually considered other less expensive sails. one of them needed to get new masts regardless of final choice; when he did the math for sail/mast combos, he found the North price to be competitive with or even better than the other brands he was considering (popular brands in this forum, but didn't include Point-7).

duzzi said..
People who buy equipment are always positively biased toward what they purchase

whether expensive or not, i do get that (and generally understand why); you yourself provide examples of this time and again.

i also get (while i can't say i understand why, though it may be the flip side of the positive bias you mention) is that in fora like this, some people feel the need to repeatedly dump on product (and by extension on its users) that for whatever reason or rationale they don't like and have zero interest in trying, let alone purchasing and owning; thanks for also providing examples of this.

hum ... you are the one going around claiming that North has come up with magic sails. I am wandering about your claims, not about the North product. And yes, I like my Point-7, I switched to P7 after 20 years on Hot Sails Maui, but never claimed they were the best sails on the market. Certainly they have a massive range of use.

So again: (1) what exactly were the three sail quivers that two North sails allegedly replaced, and (2) how come the comparative test above never mentions anything about a wider range of use?

seriously?

all we are doing is repeating what has been said to us by people that actually own the sails and pass on our thoughts on what we actually saw of the sail on the water.

believe it or don't. no one is attacking you.

I do not feel attacked at all. But yes, I am serious (somewhat). When somebody claims that some magic sails can reduce your quiver size by one third (and that claim finds no confirmation in published reviews), well ... I want to know the details of the claim.

Thank you John your report from Baja!! Are you still down there? The season in the Bay has been horrible!

That was their experience.

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WindFlyer said..

Imax1 said..
... Do you need a specific mast base with those masts ?

* the North version of the mast does not "flare out" at the base like the Slake masts, so yes, an MDM mast extension would be needed. (buy hey, when i switched to the Severne cambered sails i'm currently riding, i had to get new extensions too due to the portside rigging). the North mast extension is on the europin system, so unless you have us-base, no new base would be needed.

a correction here. i found an older thread about the Slake MDM masts:
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/SLAKE-MDMs-Mid-Diameter-Masts

turns out they don't actually "flare out" at the bottom but continue the "MDM" diameter to bottom; Slake came up with a spacer collar that goes around an RDM extension (shown in the second picture in the opening post) to work with the mast. the North Optima masts i've seen look like the Slake masts at the bottom (in fact, they are manufactured by Slake). so if you got one of those, you could use and RDM extension.

I want a "Magic" sail and I hope North has found it. But! I've been in this sport for a bit and seen the claims of the next big thing. Who remembers "Cutaway" or "Convertible " sails yes they helped further the knowledge but they were awful and disappeared quickly. The proof will come in the racing and hopefully prove that it is the next big thing like cams and twist in sails

Clamp on booms are pretty cool.

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Imax1 said..
Clamp on booms are pretty cool.

Only when they stopped breaking masts

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kato said..

Imax1 said..
Clamp on booms are pretty cool.

Only when they stopped breaking masts

Good point. You could get too much leverage on some. Then there were those who thought having contact with the mast at only a few points were a good idea. It meant you could use various diameter masts with the same boom head without any adjustment, but was too much for the mast.
Which brings me to a point I've been wondering about. With the MDM mast, what boom heads are compatible? Or is it a case of SDM size but with an adaptor, like with RDM masts?

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Gestalt said..
That was their experience.

Oh man, this is ridiculous experience of what? What under performing quivers did the dump and what took their place? Obviously you do not know, and Windflayr does not either. Just making gratuitous claims ... not really sure why, does any of you sells North?

But enough! Time to watch the PWA in Torbole. No North in sight, maybe we will see the North race sail at the next PWA chapter, top two positions for Patrik/Patrik (!) and AV-boards/Point-7 for now

Racing is a very unfair way to try determine what's good and what is not because there are too many variables. You need a good sailor, good sail, good foil/fin, good board, and a little bit of luck.

when Nico Goyard was winning a couple of years ago, a lot of people wanted to buy Phantom foils, and now after one day of racing is Patrik the gear to have? Plus, none of us are/will be in the PWA tour so just because it doesn't work in the pro circuit doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for most of us weekend warriors.
I can see a freerace foil sail made with this material/process as a great option for light windfoiling. It's a bummer they don't offer one.

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duzzi said..

Gestalt said..
That was their experience.

Oh man, this is ridiculous experience of what? What under performing quivers did the dump and what took their place? Obviously you do not know, and Windflayr does not either. Just making gratuitous claims ... not really sure why, does any of you sells North?

But enough! Time to watch the PWA in Torbole. No North in sight, maybe we will see the North race sail at the next PWA chapter, top two positions for Patrik/Patrik (!) and AV-boards/Point-7 for now

Yeah im the intergalactic distributor for north sails universal. Lol.

You prompted me to read some mag reviews. Wow these sails are getting some great reviews.

This is what windsurf mag said.

"Even as the wind builds, the sail's stable qualities are blaring, making rotations smoother and more comfortable. Through the gybes the sail is exceptionally easy to direct, allowing the rider time to position their body well, ready for the exit.The performance of the X-Over on the wave during onshore and cross-on conditions was staggering. The light feel in the hands combined with the ability to direct the sail wherever the rider pleased was a huge asset when trying to squeeze the most out of the wave. This ease of positioning allowed the rider to really dig deep into turns, providing aggressive drive at both the bottom and top of the wave. Additionally, it seemed almost impossible for the rider to position their body incorrectly with the sail, making it easy to get weight in on the turns and weight back over the kit when necessary"


glowing review really.

Couple here racing

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Gestalt said..

duzzi said..

Gestalt said..
That was their experience.

Oh man, this is ridiculous experience of what? What under performing quivers did the dump and what took their place? Obviously you do not know, and Windflayr does not either. Just making gratuitous claims ... not really sure why, does any of you sells North?

But enough! Time to watch the PWA in Torbole. No North in sight, maybe we will see the North race sail at the next PWA chapter, top two positions for Patrik/Patrik (!) and AV-boards/Point-7 for now

Yeah im the intergalactic distributor for north sails universal. Lol.

You prompted me to read some mag reviews. Wow these sails are getting some great reviews.

This is what windsurf mag said.

"Even as the wind builds, the sail's stable qualities are blaring, making rotations smoother and more comfortable. Through the gybes the sail is exceptionally easy to direct, allowing the rider time to position their body well, ready for the exit.The performance of the X-Over on the wave during onshore and cross-on conditions was staggering. The light feel in the hands combined with the ability to direct the sail wherever the rider pleased was a huge asset when trying to squeeze the most out of the wave. This ease of positioning allowed the rider to really dig deep into turns, providing aggressive drive at both the bottom and top of the wave. Additionally, it seemed almost impossible for the rider to position their body incorrectly with the sail, making it easy to get weight in on the turns and weight back over the kit when necessary"


glowing review really.

You are a master at duck jibes! Yes, they liked the 5.0, they were much more lukewarm about the 6.2 that I referenced above www.windsurf.co.uk/north-sails-x-6-2-2023-test-review/. Neither reviews makes any mention of an extended range compared to other sails, which is what we are talking about.

Anyway, today a North XOVER 6.2 showed up at the beach. It indeed looks like a crossover recreational sail, with five battens for 6.2. A lot of leach tension, biggish pocket once it fills in, in navigation the top does not really opens up much. Head to head on the water was not really telling. I am on my AV Modena Slalom 98 and Point-7 6.0 ACX, and Chris is on a Severne Fox 120 with the North: I am doing my usual 28-30 knots with my new lovely AV 98, making the Fox/North look still. It is unavoidable, the sails (and boards) are apples and oranges. But certainly the North does not seem fast, and I do not see how, or why, it can be rangier than my ACX. It does look slick, really like the lack of batten pockets, although the window is horrible: small and it looks like an after thought. The owner was very happy with it, it is the first sail he had bought in 20 years ...

No interest on Xover, especially after Gwarn's review, but curious about the free race coming out on May 17. Hopefully somebody will review it without making absurdist claims!

That review also reads very well. I wouldnt say luke warm at all.

Call the claims whatever you want. My friends are happy.

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choco said..
Everyone should be grateful there are still companies out there still investing in Windsurfing.

your post got me thinking, and i remembered a conversation with some *boat* sailing friends last year and how they were all excited about a new North 3Di sail that was expected to be announced for the foiling moths, etc.

so i did a search and found that sail (7.5m 3Di Helix), and noticed that it shares some details with the recently announced WS Race sails (continuous luff sleeve, split battens for that luff pocked) but not other things (aircam or tapered batten tails). that got me wondering whether any of the R&D of the windsurfing sail found its way into the moth sail, or the other way around? best as i can tell, the sail goes for around USD2,700.

this rather lengthy rigging guide shows a fair amount of detail of how the sail is designed and an interesting comparison to the WS sail:

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WillyWind said..
I can see a freerace foil sail made with this material/process as a great option for light windfoiling. It's a bummer they don't offer one.

i do agree with both points. so i started to think of who does a "tuned down" version of the foil race sail, keeping details like the double luff sleeve (which on the PWA sails has gotten quite massive this year), etc., and i was at a loss to find anyone other than Phantom who does with its IrisX line. best as i can tell, most freeride/freerace foil sails (Severne FoilGlide, Duotone F-Pace Cam, Pryde V8 Flight, Point 7 F1X, Patrik Ride Foil, Sailworks Flyer FR, etc.) aren't that closely related to their PWA big brothers where they exist (HyperGlide, Warp Foil, RSFlight Evo, F1SL, Foil S2).

could it be that the market isn't there? if that is case, not sure we're likely to see North going there either.

but, suppose they were to do a "tuned down" freerace foil sail as the fin freerace is a tuned down version of the fin race sail, and since as you no doubt know these materials and processes are not inexpensive, would you actually be willing to spend ~USD 1,400 for an 8.5 sail? (before getting into the masts, etc.)

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choco said..
Couple here racing

thanks for sharing that! pretty fun video
looks like a fun group of avid sailors who go thru a lot of effort to have fun and informal races.

and well, the North sails must be bunk, as i don't see them leading

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WindFlyer said..

WillyWind said..
I can see a freerace foil sail made with this material/process as a great option for light windfoiling. It's a bummer they don't offer one.

i do agree with both points. so i started to think of who does a "tuned down" version of the foil race sail, keeping details like the double luff sleeve (which on the PWA sails has gotten quite massive this year), etc., and i was at a loss to find anyone other than Phantom who does with its IrisX line. best as i can tell, most freeride/freerace foil sails (Severne FoilGlide, Duotone F-Pace Cam, Pryde V8 Flight, Point 7 F1X, Patrik Ride Foil, Sailworks Flyer FR, etc.) aren't that closely related to their PWA big brothers where they exist (HyperGlide, Warp Foil, RSFlight Evo, F1SL, Foil S2).

could it be that the market isn't there? if that is case, not sure we're likely to see North going there either.

but, suppose they were to do a "tuned down" freerace foil sail as the fin freerace is a tuned down version of the fin race sail, and since as you no doubt know these materials and processes are not inexpensive, would you actually be willing to spend ~USD 1,400 for an 8.5 sail? (before getting into the masts, etc.)

You have missed the Patrik GT-3, the Planchemag 2/3 cam freerace test top performer!

It may be marketed as a fin/foil hybrid, but if you look at the specs they are high aspect. eg the 8m has 511cm luff and 205cm boom.
The top 2 Patrik sailors at Lake Garde have the fin/foil hybrid sail as their 2 smallest sails, and Patrik say the GT3 is based on that.

Is there a market? I have an AHD Compact 83 freerace and 1080 foil, and I also still use fin boards. The largest fin board very little now, 3 times last year. I used to use that for 25% of my sessions before I started foiling.
I bought 8.5/7.5/6.5m Ezzy Lions a couple of years ago, which are still in 1st class condition, so wont be looking to replace those soon. But if I was going to replace them, a 8m & 6.8m GT-3 would be top of the shortlist. They would also fit quite nicely as fin sails on my AV Nuvolari 119 when the conditions are good for fin sailing. They use RDM masts, which is a bonus for the non racer as they last longer.
I was hoping Ezzy might do a foil version of the Lion, but think thats unlikely.
All freerace 3 cam sails cost more than no-cam, but less than full on race.
www.patrikinternational.com/en/shop/windsurfing/windsurf-sails/patrik-gt-3-frc.html


ps S2 Maui Osprey.
www.s2maui.com/osprey-2023/


pps another one, GA Phantom Air.
ga-windsurfing.com/sails/phantom-air/

Definitely a market for freerace foil.

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PhilUK said..

You have missed the ...

right you are, thanks for pointing those out.

totally forgot about the S2 Osprey; while the GA sails (as the Challenger Force One that i've since looked up) weren't in my radar.

i was looking at foil-dedicated sails, so i did skip over the Patrik GT3, as well as the Point 7 F1E (which in the larger sizes do seem to fit the bill). by noting the Patrik and your use cases you do bring out a good point: and that is that a dual-use (fin/foil) freerace sail likely has a viable market. as for the subject at hand (new North sails), i haven't seen any indication that they intend to market the FreeRace as anything other than a fin sail (but, who knows?). it does seem to me that some of the tuning technologies (split battens and aircam) would lend themselves nicely to such dual use; i certainly intend to explore that when i get to try one.

as for the pricing matter, yes i am familiar with the structures and differentials between pro-level, "tuned-down" cam level, and no-cam levels. in my question i was applying those differentials and estimating a cost to the hypthetical North foil freerace sail. and there's simple reason for that: it has been accurately mentioned and discussed that these sails are expensive, and putting an approximate cost on "wish list" item is a good way to get a sense how bad we really want it

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PhilUK said..

Which brings me to a point I've been wondering about. With the MDM mast, what boom heads are compatible? Or is it a case of SDM size but with an adaptor, like with RDM masts?

very good question!
which i immediately posed to someone i know that uses Slake MDMs on his foil sails.

the answer that came back is that the Duotone (with SDM friction pad) and the Severne SDM lockjaw boom heads work like the charm; those are the only booms he had and tried, so don't consider those options exhaustive.

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WindFlyer said..

choco said..
Everyone should be grateful there are still companies out there still investing in Windsurfing.

your post got me thinking, and i remembered a conversation with some *boat* sailing friends last year and how they were all excited about a new North 3Di sail that was expected to be announced for the foiling moths, etc.

so i did a search and found that sail (7.5m 3Di Helix), and noticed that it shares some details with the recently announced WS Race sails (continuous luff sleeve, split battens for that luff pocked) but not other things (aircam or tapered batten tails). that got me wondering whether any of the R&D of the windsurfing sail found its way into the moth sail, or the other way around? best as i can tell, the sail goes for around USD2,700.

this rather lengthy rigging guide shows a fair amount of detail of how the sail is designed and an interesting comparison to the WS sail:

3Di sails have been in the Moths for a while, the Helix is the 11th generation but the first with the structured Helix luff. Up to Gen 10 they were more like a conventional WS sail with a single main panel and then a luff pocket sewn on. The previous versions took a lot of inspiration from WS sails in terms of the cams etc (previous versions didn't have the split batten) but Moth sails are quite different shape/profile wise. They have to be able to go through a massive range, super deep to get foiling and then almost board flat once going fast, the loads are also way way higher than a windsurfer and we don't run much twist; The cunningham (downhaul) on my Moth is 28:1 and the Vang is 48:1 and I pull both almost as hard as I can over 15kts, which is why a 7.5m2 moth sail is almost 6kg (has to handle way higher loads).

I have the Helix 7.5 on my Moth and it's a wicked sail, 3Di is quite different to sail with, my previous rig was normal membrane style film and it's very different in it's stretch characteristics etc. Would be interesting to try a windsurf one for sure.

CST who make/supply a large segment of the moth mast market also worked with Slake to make/develop their WS range of masts. Pretty sure they make the new North masts.

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WindFlyer said..

but, suppose they were to do a "tuned down" freerace foil sail as the fin freerace is a tuned down version of the fin race sail, and since as you no doubt know these materials and processes are not inexpensive, would you actually be willing to spend ~USD 1,400 for an 8.5 sail? (before getting into the masts, etc.)

yes. In summer the sail use the most (over 75% of the time) is a 8.5 freerace foil sail. If there were a sail that can get me going with 1-2 knots less wind without losing higher wind control, I would buy it because lowering the wind threshold that much makes a significant difference in flying time.

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CJW said..

...the Helix is the 11th generation but the first with the structured Helix luff...

I have the Helix 7.5 on my Moth and it's a wicked sail, 3Di is quite different to sail with, my previous rig was normal membrane style film and it's very different in it's stretch characteristics etc. Would be interesting to try a windsurf one for sure.

CST who make/supply a large segment of the moth mast market also worked with Slake to make/develop their WS range of masts. Pretty sure they make the new North masts.

thanks so much for the explanation!
i do hope you get to try one of the North 3Di aircam fin or foil sails. your perspective should be very interesting!

my understanding was that Slake is like a division of CST composites or something of the sort. and yeah, the "tow preg/ variable pitch/ and made in Australia" verbiage in the North masts webpage, along with the tell-tale "basketweave" pattern on the carbon makes it abundantly obvious that it is Slake who makes those masts for North.

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WillyWind said..
yes.

noted!

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WindFlyer said..

CJW said..

...the Helix is the 11th generation but the first with the structured Helix luff...

I have the Helix 7.5 on my Moth and it's a wicked sail, 3Di is quite different to sail with, my previous rig was normal membrane style film and it's very different in it's stretch characteristics etc. Would be interesting to try a windsurf one for sure.

CST who make/supply a large segment of the moth mast market also worked with Slake to make/develop their WS range of masts. Pretty sure they make the new North masts.

thanks so much for the explanation!
i do hope you get to try one of the North 3Di aircam fin or foil sails. your perspective should be very interesting!

my understanding was that Slake is like a division of CST composites or something of the sort. and yeah, the "tow preg/ variable pitch/ and made in Australia" verbiage in the North masts webpage, along with the tell-tale "basketweave" pattern on the carbon makes it abundantly obvious that it is Slake who makes those masts for North.

For what I know CST is a company that produces high quality carbon parts, works and develops products for company as Slake and now North specifically to their needs.