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berowne said..
New Video Review
North Race Review (youtube.com)

For those who dont know, his top speed of 55 kph is 29.7 knots, on an iSonic slalom board. I've done that speed on my 2016 Ezzy Lion 7.5m 2 cm freeride on an Exocet freerace board.
He found faults with the sail but was told that it was a prototype pre-production sail? Really, its 2024 and that sail was launched in Spring 2023. Why would they let a normal sailor loose on a prototype sail with all its faults?

North missed the boat last year, but after a full winters training I'm looking forward to the 2024 PWA slalom season to see these game changing sails take all the wins

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PhilUK said..

berowne said..
New Video Review
North Race Review (youtube.com)

For those who dont know, his top speed of 55 kph is 29.7 knots, on an iSonic slalom board. I've done that speed on my 2016 Ezzy Lion 7.5m 2 cm freeride on an Exocet freerace board.
He found faults with the sail but was told that it was a prototype pre-production sail? Really, its 2024 and that sail was launched in Spring 2023. Why would they let a normal sailor loose on a prototype sail with all its faults?

North missed the boat last year, but after a full winters training I'm looking forward to the 2024 PWA slalom season to see these game changing sails take all the wins

Phil do you know yet who is going to ride them at PWA

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tonyk said.. Phil do you know yet who is going to ride them at PWA

No, but I hear there a are few decent sailors looking for new kit sponsors

Just what we need, a third mast standard (MDM) , as if the mess with various bend curves for SDM and RDM masts wasn't enough...

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SurferKris said..
Just what we need, a third mast standard (MDM) , as if the mess with various bend curves for SDM and RDM masts wasn't enough...

And if we could standardize and use the same fin box for everything as well that would be awesome!

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Ben1973 said..

SurferKris said..
Just what we need, a third mast standard (MDM) , as if the mess with various bend curves for SDM and RDM masts wasn't enough...

And if we could standardize and use the same fin box for everything as well that would be awesome!

Fin box? Surely you mean foil tracks.

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jdfoils said..

Ben1973 said..

SurferKris said..
Just what we need, a third mast standard (MDM) , as if the mess with various bend curves for SDM and RDM masts wasn't enough...

And if we could standardize and use the same fin box for everything as well that would be awesome!

Fin box? Surely you mean foil tracks.

Don't care about foils they can do whatever they want

Personal opinion, and about (fin) slalom sails only.To me they almost completely miss the point.
What is asked from a slalom sail is mostly control. We tend to sail overpowered, this means we usually have all the power we can ask for and then much more, and we have to deal with that. Control is what makes it possible to deal with that huge power.
So to my eyes at least, there is no need to devote resources for extra efficiency. I mean: if extra efficiency comes through accurate leech twist tuning and foil shaping, then it's OK, as it does not "cost" anything, BUT if it comes by use of special new "split battens" and special new cams and air bladder that need extra rigging operations, then no thanks, better keep things easy and simple. And, that said, let's see HOW MUCH more efficiency, or if any at all.
I admit for foils it may be different, as in that case more efficiency (if real) means less sideway forces to get the same forward thrust, and sideway forces in that case can not be dealt with by just pushing the fin as hard as possible like in fin slalom.
That said. Better cam rotation, well maybe (not sure about that from the video posted here above), but you can get good rotation on conventional sails too. Lightness, well OK that's good, but the quoted weights are really nothing special.
So what is left? I assume the sail body material is more durable than plain film, hopefully; battens are of the best quality (but I think the split batten configuration leads to some problems in getting a right aerodynamic foil). And price is super high.
Personally, what I am really interested in the new North Sails offering is about how the MDM masts will perform in a slalom sail.
I will be very glad to be proved too skeptical.

Select to expand quote

geoITA said..
Personal opinion, and about (fin) slalom sails only.To me they almost completely miss the point.
What is asked from a slalom sail is mostly control. We tend to sail overpowered, this means we usually have all the power we can ask for and then much more, and we have to deal with that. Control is what makes it possible to deal with that huge power.
So to my eyes at least, there is no need to devote resources for extra efficiency. I mean: if extra efficiency comes through accurate leech twist tuning and foil shaping, then it's OK, as it does not "cost" anything, BUT if it comes by use of special new "split battens" and special new cams and air bladder that need extra rigging operations, then no thanks, better keep things easy and simple. And, that said, let's see HOW MUCH more efficiency, or if any at all.
I admit for foils it may be different, as in that case more efficiency (if real) means less sideway forces to get the same forward thrust, and sideway forces in that case can not be dealt with by just pushing the fin as hard as possible like in fin slalom.
That said. Better cam rotation, well maybe (not sure about that from the video posted here above), but you can get good rotation on conventional sails too. Lightness, well OK that's good, but the quoted weights are really nothing special.
So what is left? I assume the sail body material is more durable than plain film, hopefully; battens are of the best quality (but I think the split batten configuration leads to some problems in getting a right aerodynamic foil). And price is super high.
Personally, what I am really interested in the new North Sails offering is about how the MDM masts will perform in a slalom sail.
I will be very glad to be proved too skeptical.

Ciao GeoITA,

My 2 cents on overpowered condition VS 3Di.
One of the main benefits of the 3dI technology is sailing in overpowered conditions, which, from what I understand, is your main concern.

3Di Sails, fibres and resin content, after being lined up, are heated up and cured on a moulded hydraulic press that will replicate the load distribution of the wind on the sail when fully powered, making it pre-shaped to the "fully powered position"

The result is a preformed or pre-curved sail that might look a bit awkward on the beach (what all the haters are focusing on...) as not loaded, but then in the water and under the wind pressure and load and against the weight of the rider twisting the rig, the sail sits in "neutral" shape, as it's designed to be fully loaded.
(same as the pre curved racing suit for Moto GP riders, they look super awkward when standing tall as the suit its nt in its indented shape, when on the bike and all crouched up, the suits fits like a glove).

So imagine a sail where the more the pressure increases (overpowered), the more the sail flexes/twists, getting into some weird, less efficient shape compared to a sail that keeps its intended shape no matter what.

Have you tried one yourself? If not, would you be interested? I might have someone in Italy able to help out, where are you located?

Hey Frothy knots,

do you know if they will make a freerace or freeride foil sail? I need a big sail to get foiling in very light days. I wouldn't mind paying the extra price if it lowers the takeoff speed threshold, even if it's just a little bit.

Select to expand quote

40FrothyKnots said..

geoITA said..
Personal opinion, and about (fin) slalom sails only.To me they almost completely miss the point.
What is asked from a slalom sail is mostly control. We tend to sail overpowered, this means we usually have all the power we can ask for and then much more, and we have to deal with that. Control is what makes it possible to deal with that huge power.
So to my eyes at least, there is no need to devote resources for extra efficiency. I mean: if extra efficiency comes through accurate leech twist tuning and foil shaping, then it's OK, as it does not "cost" anything, BUT if it comes by use of special new "split battens" and special new cams and air bladder that need extra rigging operations, then no thanks, better keep things easy and simple. And, that said, let's see HOW MUCH more efficiency, or if any at all.
I admit for foils it may be different, as in that case more efficiency (if real) means less sideway forces to get the same forward thrust, and sideway forces in that case can not be dealt with by just pushing the fin as hard as possible like in fin slalom.
That said. Better cam rotation, well maybe (not sure about that from the video posted here above), but you can get good rotation on conventional sails too. Lightness, well OK that's good, but the quoted weights are really nothing special.
So what is left? I assume the sail body material is more durable than plain film, hopefully; battens are of the best quality (but I think the split batten configuration leads to some problems in getting a right aerodynamic foil). And price is super high.
Personally, what I am really interested in the new North Sails offering is about how the MDM masts will perform in a slalom sail.
I will be very glad to be proved too skeptical.

Ciao GeoITA,

My 2 cents on overpowered condition VS 3Di.
One of the main benefits of the 3dI technology is sailing in overpowered conditions, which, from what I understand, is your main concern.

3Di Sails, fibres and resin content, after being lined up, are heated up and cured on a moulded hydraulic press that will replicate the load distribution of the wind on the sail when fully powered, making it pre-shaped to the "fully powered position"

The result is a preformed or pre-curved sail that might look a bit awkward on the beach (what all the haters are focusing on...) as not loaded, but then in the water and under the wind pressure and load and against the weight of the rider twisting the rig, the sail sits in "neutral" shape, as it's designed to be fully loaded.
(same as the pre curved racing suit for Moto GP riders, they look super awkward when standing tall as the suit its nt in its indented shape, when on the bike and all crouched up, the suits fits like a glove).

So imagine a sail where the more the pressure increases (overpowered), the more the sail flexes/twists, getting into some weird, less efficient shape compared to a sail that keeps its intended shape no matter what.

Have you tried one yourself? If not, would you be interested? I might have someone in Italy able to help out, where are you located?

You don't know much about sail design do you.

Select to expand quote

sheddweller said..

40FrothyKnots said..

geoITA said..
Personal opinion, and about (fin) slalom sails only.To me they almost completely miss the point.
What is asked from a slalom sail is mostly control. We tend to sail overpowered, this means we usually have all the power we can ask for and then much more, and we have to deal with that. Control is what makes it possible to deal with that huge power.
So to my eyes at least, there is no need to devote resources for extra efficiency. I mean: if extra efficiency comes through accurate leech twist tuning and foil shaping, then it's OK, as it does not "cost" anything, BUT if it comes by use of special new "split battens" and special new cams and air bladder that need extra rigging operations, then no thanks, better keep things easy and simple. And, that said, let's see HOW MUCH more efficiency, or if any at all.
I admit for foils it may be different, as in that case more efficiency (if real) means less sideway forces to get the same forward thrust, and sideway forces in that case can not be dealt with by just pushing the fin as hard as possible like in fin slalom.
That said. Better cam rotation, well maybe (not sure about that from the video posted here above), but you can get good rotation on conventional sails too. Lightness, well OK that's good, but the quoted weights are really nothing special.
So what is left? I assume the sail body material is more durable than plain film, hopefully; battens are of the best quality (but I think the split batten configuration leads to some problems in getting a right aerodynamic foil). And price is super high.
Personally, what I am really interested in the new North Sails offering is about how the MDM masts will perform in a slalom sail.
I will be very glad to be proved too skeptical.

Ciao GeoITA,

My 2 cents on overpowered condition VS 3Di.
One of the main benefits of the 3dI technology is sailing in overpowered conditions, which, from what I understand, is your main concern.

3Di Sails, fibres and resin content, after being lined up, are heated up and cured on a moulded hydraulic press that will replicate the load distribution of the wind on the sail when fully powered, making it pre-shaped to the "fully powered position"

The result is a preformed or pre-curved sail that might look a bit awkward on the beach (what all the haters are focusing on...) as not loaded, but then in the water and under the wind pressure and load and against the weight of the rider twisting the rig, the sail sits in "neutral" shape, as it's designed to be fully loaded.
(same as the pre curved racing suit for Moto GP riders, they look super awkward when standing tall as the suit its nt in its indented shape, when on the bike and all crouched up, the suits fits like a glove).

So imagine a sail where the more the pressure increases (overpowered), the more the sail flexes/twists, getting into some weird, less efficient shape compared to a sail that keeps its intended shape no matter what.

Have you tried one yourself? If not, would you be interested? I might have someone in Italy able to help out, where are you located?

You don't know much about sail design do you.

guess I know what I know.. but always keen to know more, please tell...

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WillyWind said..
Hey Frothy knots,

do you know if they will make a freerace or freeride foil sail? I need a big sail to get foiling in very light days. I wouldn't mind paying the extra price if it lowers the takeoff speed threshold, even if it's just a little bit.

Hi Willy,

Yes either a Free Race and a FreeFoil (both No-cam) will be available soon.

Should be March for the Fre Race and May for the Free Foil.

There are 2 Free Race no-cam in the country; one is up in QLD with Simon from Boardcrazy, and the other is with me in Sydney.

Where are you located?

Hey Frothy any change of some pictures of the no cam free race ,I been waiting for it to come out since north told me of it release
in March ,are orders been taken now ?or is it too early to post pictures ,

Select to expand quote

40FrothyKnots said..

WillyWind said..
Hey Frothy knots,

do you know if they will make a freerace or freeride foil sail? I need a big sail to get foiling in very light days. I wouldn't mind paying the extra price if it lowers the takeoff speed threshold, even if it's just a little bit.

Hi Willy,

Yes either a Free Race and a FreeFoil (both No-cam) will be available soon.

Should be March for the Fre Race and May for the Free Foil.

There are 2 Free Race no-cam in the country; one is up in QLD with Simon from Boardcrazy, and the other is with me in Sydney.

Where are you located?

Seattle, USA. thanks for the offer, though (and for the info).

Well here we are again a second baton pocket failure this time on the foot batten I knew it was just a matter of time.

I sure hope on the second generation sails they get their handwork issues straightened out and just accept the fact that it's going to weigh a couple more ounces.
I've accepted the fact that it doesn't have the lifespan that I'm accustomed to with the Ezzys.
It's been a love-hate relationship especially when I've had my first problems when I contacted the European distributor to figure out who to call in the US. Boy they're full of themselves and didn't put me in touch with the distributor I had to reach out to people I knew in the industry.
But the US distributor was excellent and it ended up being somebody I knew and they fixed it promptly. This is the only reason I stayed on board otherwise I just would have kicked it to the curb.

And I know this is just the first generation and that I'm a beta tester at full MSRP.

As long as I'm foiling I'm all in with this sail.As far as wave sailing I'll stick to my Ezzy Tanka's.
I knew the sail was going to crap out this winter down in Baja so I had bought a second new one.

The number one thing I recommend if you purchase these sails is know how to deal with your warranty in advance so find out who the rep is and talk to them first.
The problem I had I went back to the shop where I bought it and they were very angry with North over some other issues with kites and they were no longer a dealer and they told me to pound sand it and wouldn't give me the distributors number.( That's a whole different **** show )
So that is why I say find out who the distributor is and contact them first before you pull the trigger to make sure you have an outlet and record your serial number because the little sticker will fall off after the first couple sessions.

As far as the quote about the shape preloaded into the sail regular sails also have the shape cut into them so that was just some marketing piece for the salesman to dribble back out to you....

And trust me it's not only an ugly duckling limp on the beach it's an ugly duckling under load but it works perfect for my needs but my needs are very unique....

thank you very much for your first hands experiences with NS 3Di.

Select to expand quote

Gwarn said..


As long as I'm foiling I'm all in with this sail.

And trust me it's not only an ugly duckling limp on the beach it's an ugly duckling under load but it works perfect for my needs but my needs are very unique....

Gwarn, what are the characteristics of the sail that make it so worthwhile for you, for foiling?

Select to expand quote

Gwarn said..
Well here we are again a second baton pocket failure this time on the foot batten I knew it was just a matter of time.

I sure hope on the second generation sails they get their handwork issues straightened out and just accept the fact that it's going to weigh a couple more ounces.
I've accepted the fact that it doesn't have the lifespan that I'm accustomed to with the Ezzys.
It's been a love-hate relationship especially when I've had my first problems when I contacted the European distributor to figure out who to call in the US. Boy they're full of themselves and didn't put me in touch with the distributor I had to reach out to people I knew in the industry.
But the US distributor was excellent and it ended up being somebody I knew and they fixed it promptly. This is the only reason I stayed on board otherwise I just would have kicked it to the curb.

And I know this is just the first generation and that I'm a beta tester at full MSRP.

As long as I'm foiling I'm all in with this sail.As far as wave sailing I'll stick to my Ezzy Tanka's.
I knew the sail was going to crap out this winter down in Baja so I had bought a second new one.

The number one thing I recommend if you purchase these sails is know how to deal with your warranty in advance so find out who the rep is and talk to them first.
The problem I had I went back to the shop where I bought it and they were very angry with North over some other issues with kites and they were no longer a dealer and they told me to pound sand it and wouldn't give me the distributors number.( That's a whole different **** show )
So that is why I say find out who the distributor is and contact them first before you pull the trigger to make sure you have an outlet and record your serial number because the little sticker will fall off after the first couple sessions.

As far as the quote about the shape preloaded into the sail regular sails also have the shape cut into them so that was just some marketing piece for the salesman to dribble back out to you....

And trust me it's not only an ugly duckling limp on the beach it's an ugly duckling under load but it works perfect for my needs but my needs are very unique....

Can't help but say I called it on the 1st page of this thread back in January of last year.
Porting the 3di technology to windsurfing wouldn't cut it. Design and function wise it's good, perhaps even great but our gear takes a special kind of beating. Having seen plenty of their sails (jibs/genoas) chaff against the lifeline on boats was enough to make me worry about durability. I've placed PSA Dacron on contact points to reduce wear.
This is not something that can be fixed by making the material thicker since it's simply the way the material wears - "threads" coming off.
They assumed just cause Moth sails made in the same manner held together it would be true for windsurf sails. A classic dacron or vectran luff pocket would do the trick but that requires sewing it onto the 3di.

Select to expand quote

John340 said..

Gwarn said..


As long as I'm foiling I'm all in with this sail.

And trust me it's not only an ugly duckling limp on the beach it's an ugly duckling under load but it works perfect for my needs but my needs are very unique....

Gwarn, what are the characteristics of the sail that make it so worthwhile for you, for foiling?

The sail is lighter than anything I've ever used.
Depowers instantly.
It's quiet
That's it.

Something wrong with the way the batterns are at the mast. Hope it sorts itself out when in gets some wind in it

Was there a post with photos of a new North sail in Queensland that has been deleted since in this thread the day before or was that in a different thread?

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ptsf1111 said..
Was there a post with photos of a new North sail in Queensland that has been deleted since in this thread the day before or was that in a different thread?

yes ,been taken off because it hasn't been released yet ,

Oh my... Looking for the zipped mouth emoji.

You can't delete stuff from the internet North...

The longer video is on YT.
Looking at their sessions on GPS Speedsurfing, is it really a game changer? Hard to tell unless you do some side by side testing with their other kit.

?si=6ErK6A3u6CpPQwwO

Select to expand quote

40FrothyKnots said..

geoITA said..
Personal opinion, and about (fin) slalom sails only.To me they almost completely miss the point.
What is asked from a slalom sail is mostly control. We tend to sail overpowered, this means we usually have all the power we can ask for and then much more, and we have to deal with that. Control is what makes it possible to deal with that huge power.
So to my eyes at least, there is no need to devote resources for extra efficiency. I mean: if extra efficiency comes through accurate leech twist tuning and foil shaping, then it's OK, as it does not "cost" anything, BUT if it comes by use of special new "split battens" and special new cams and air bladder that need extra rigging operations, then no thanks, better keep things easy and simple. And, that said, let's see HOW MUCH more efficiency, or if any at all.
I admit for foils it may be different, as in that case more efficiency (if real) means less sideway forces to get the same forward thrust, and sideway forces in that case can not be dealt with by just pushing the fin as hard as possible like in fin slalom.
That said. Better cam rotation, well maybe (not sure about that from the video posted here above), but you can get good rotation on conventional sails too. Lightness, well OK that's good, but the quoted weights are really nothing special.
So what is left? I assume the sail body material is more durable than plain film, hopefully; battens are of the best quality (but I think the split batten configuration leads to some problems in getting a right aerodynamic foil). And price is super high.
Personally, what I am really interested in the new North Sails offering is about how the MDM masts will perform in a slalom sail.
I will be very glad to be proved too skeptical.

Ciao GeoITA,

My 2 cents on overpowered condition VS 3Di.
One of the main benefits of the 3dI technology is sailing in overpowered conditions, which, from what I understand, is your main concern.

...

The result is a preformed or pre-curved sail that might look a bit awkward on the beach (what all the haters are focusing on...) as not loaded, but then in the water and under the wind pressure and load and against the weight of the rider twisting the rig, the sail sits in "neutral" shape, as it's designed to be fully loaded.
(same as the pre curved racing suit for Moto GP riders, they look super awkward when standing tall as the suit its nt in its indented shape, when on the bike and all crouched up, the suits fits like a glove).
...

This is the thread that keeps giving! Despite repeated reports of broken wave sails, imaginary weight savings and non existent competition wins for the "race" models, and almost ZERO sales, you can count on a North seller to explain to you that the North sail are such a game changer because they work like Moto GP protection suits!!!!! Bravo!!!!

Select to expand quote

cris21 said..
I don't understand the hate for a brand that at least is doing something new and different ...

North is a big corporation, and they are investing a little bit of their money to build a few windsurfing sails using a technology that has very questionable advantages when applied to very small sail surfaces. In the process of doing so instead of providing real numbers, that is the mechanical properties of the laminates they use, and have a real discussion on pro and cons, they have come out with a couple of years of a little carpet bombing of interviews, promotional videos, or amusing descriptions like the ones provided above. The claimed advantages, weight savings, strength, performance, have been all quickly proven false.

So, really, the whole thing is just a rather clumsy example of corporate-trying-to-get-away-with-it. Along those lines I am waiting for the other shoe to drop: AI driven sails! They are already gearing up the hype: www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2023/04/18/artificial-intelligence-and-sailing/

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

cris21 said..
I don't understand the hate for a brand that at least is doing something new and different ...

North is a big corporation, and they are investing a little bit of their money to build a few windsurfing sails using a technology that has very questionable advantages when applied to very small sail surfaces. In the process of doing so instead of providing real numbers, that is the mechanical properties of the laminates they use, and have a real discussion on pro and cons, they have come out with a couple of years of a little carpet bombing of interviews, promotional videos, or amusing descriptions like the ones provided above. The claimed advantages, weight savings, strength, performance, have been all quickly proven false.

So, really, the whole thing is just a rather funny example of corporate-trying-to-get-away-with-it I am waiting for the other shoe to drop: AI driven sails www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2023/04/18/artificial-intelligence-and-sailing/

you are right and what you said makes sense, I was just curious because most bad reviews come from people that don't actually ride the sails, it feels more like a response to every video or article that comes out. I haven't seen that many promo videos from the brand itself.

Select to expand quote

cris21 said..

duzzi said..

cris21 said..
I don't understand the hate for a brand that at least is doing something new and different ...

North is a big corporation, and they are investing a little bit of their money to build a few windsurfing sails using a technology that has very questionable advantages when applied to very small sail surfaces. In the process of doing so instead of providing real numbers, that is the mechanical properties of the laminates they use, and have a real discussion on pro and cons, they have come out with a couple of years of a little carpet bombing of interviews, promotional videos, or amusing descriptions like the ones provided above. The claimed advantages, weight savings, strength, performance, have been all quickly proven false.

So, really, the whole thing is just a rather funny example of corporate-trying-to-get-away-with-it I am waiting for the other shoe to drop: AI driven sails www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2023/04/18/artificial-intelligence-and-sailing/

you are right and what you said makes sense, I was just curious because most bad reviews come from people that don't actually ride the sails, it feels more like a response to every video or article that comes out. I haven't seen that many promo videos from the brand itself.

I've commented about videos/articles, their website content. I dont hate North, but am sceptical about some of their claims. Like the 3Di sails being 30-40% lighter. Compare their race & freerace sails against Duotone and its 5.9kg v 6kg, 5kg v 5.5kg. The non race kit might be lighter. The Open Ocean Racing laps of the World claim doesnt relate to windsurfing sails as they re used differently, the aircam, split battens, batten adjusters, tack pulleys etc arent on the boat sails and you only need 1 to fail to stop your session.
Are the race/freerace sails actually faster? Until its proven, its unproven.