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gavnwend said..
Not knocking 3di sails,but what do they use for strength.l believe they no longer use Myler.so what will they use in the Yarns, to strengthen the sails under full load (Downhaul).

Here is something about your question

%3A%2F%2Fwww.northsails.com%2F&embeds_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.northsails.com&source_ve_path=MTM5MTE3LDI4NjY2&feature=emb_logo

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40FrothyKnots said..

Dishpet said..



Have you had much experience with 3di?
A one-design class is doing rounds with Quantum and North sails in my area, I've had time to observe both during the past 5 years.
.

How can you have seen these for the past 5 years if the first sail with this material hit the market not even 12 months ago?

These sails were never employed in the one designs project.

It's been around for quite a while, they're continually developing it.
Here's a 12 year old video:

It started off like what Avanti sails is doing today and became what we see now, the last iteration of the development that we see here has been around for ~6 years and the one design fleets are not limited by sailmaker/material construction but by sail dimensions.

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Dishpet said..

40FrothyKnots said..

Dishpet said..



Have you had much experience with 3di?
A one-design class is doing rounds with Quantum and North sails in my area, I've had time to observe both during the past 5 years.
.

How can you have seen these for the past 5 years if the first sail with this material hit the market not even 12 months ago?

These sails were never employed in the one designs project.

It's been around for quite a while, they're continually developing it.
Here's a 12 year old video:

It started off like what Avanti sails is doing today and became what we see now, the last iteration of the development that we see here has been around for ~6 years and the one design fleets are not limited by sailmaker/material construction but by sail dimensions.

This is 3DL still had Mylar in it.
Yes this is where the project started more than a decade ago, and as the video says:

"Developing 3Di tech"

These new sails are the product of all the years of developing the result is a big difference with the way they feel and how they perform..

Few lads here got caught in the same mistake pointing it that this technology was around 12 years ago.. utterly wrong sorry.

Compare that video with a recent one and I am sure you'll see my point, but definitely what you saw in the past 5 years has nothing to do with these new sails, can guarantee 100%.

You are right on sail dimension hence why the latest WS sails needed a much smaller 3dl mould capable of much higher depth on much smaller profile, this has been one of the biggest challenges in translating the 3Di tech from big sail boat to smaller WS sails.

%3A%2F%2Fwww.northsails.com%2F&embeds_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.northsails.com&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo

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Did they know when they will be released to the public? The black would still scare me in sunny hot australia, I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig on that one. Curious about how the air cams work?

As long as the masts are good it will be OK. I rode black Point-7 sails for many years (including with 580 masts!) in some stonking hot Sydney summers and never broke a single one; but we had great masts. Black is kinda nice to not notice the dirt on your sails from rigging ;-)

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40FrothyKnots said..

Dishpet said..

40FrothyKnots said..

Dishpet said..



Have you had much experience with 3di?
A one-design class is doing rounds with Quantum and North sails in my area, I've had time to observe both during the past 5 years.
.

How can you have seen these for the past 5 years if the first sail with this material hit the market not even 12 months ago?

These sails were never employed in the one designs project.

It's been around for quite a while, they're continually developing it.
Here's a 12 year old video:

It started off like what Avanti sails is doing today and became what we see now, the last iteration of the development that we see here has been around for ~6 years and the one design fleets are not limited by sailmaker/material construction but by sail dimensions.

This is 3DL still had Mylar in it.
Yes this is where the project started more than a decade ago, and as the video says:

"Developing 3Di tech"

These new sails are the product of all the years of developing the result is a big difference with the way they feel and how they perform..

Few lads here got caught in the same mistake pointing it that this technology was around 12 years ago.. utterly wrong sorry.

Compare that video with a recent one and I am sure you'll see my point, but definitely what you saw in the past 5 years has nothing to do with these new sails, can guarantee 100%.

You are right on sail dimension hence why the latest WS sails needed a much smaller 3dl mould capable of much higher depth on much smaller profile, this has been one of the biggest challenges in translating the 3Di tech from big sail boat to smaller WS sails.

%3A%2F%2Fwww.northsails.com%2F&embeds_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.northsails.com&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo

Load bearing yarns on a film, thats why I mentioned Avanti but you skimmed over that part.

Here you go, a 3Di moth sail from 2019, same surface area, MORE depth on a small surface, cams galore.

www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2019/06/north-sails-unveil-new-3di-sails-for-moth-sailors

I rest my case.

www.sailmagazine.com/boats/sailmaking-nevada-desert

2017

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Dishpet said..

40FrothyKnots said..

Dishpet said..

40FrothyKnots said..

Dishpet said..



Have you had much experience with 3di?
A one-design class is doing rounds with Quantum and North sails in my area, I've had time to observe both during the past 5 years.
.

How can you have seen these for the past 5 years if the first sail with this material hit the market not even 12 months ago?

These sails were never employed in the one designs project.

It's been around for quite a while, they're continually developing it.
Here's a 12 year old video:

It started off like what Avanti sails is doing today and became what we see now, the last iteration of the development that we see here has been around for ~6 years and the one design fleets are not limited by sailmaker/material construction but by sail dimensions.

This is 3DL still had Mylar in it.
Yes this is where the project started more than a decade ago, and as the video says:

"Developing 3Di tech"

These new sails are the product of all the years of developing the result is a big difference with the way they feel and how they perform..

Few lads here got caught in the same mistake pointing it that this technology was around 12 years ago.. utterly wrong sorry.

Compare that video with a recent one and I am sure you'll see my point, but definitely what you saw in the past 5 years has nothing to do with these new sails, can guarantee 100%.

You are right on sail dimension hence why the latest WS sails needed a much smaller 3dl mould capable of much higher depth on much smaller profile, this has been one of the biggest challenges in translating the 3Di tech from big sail boat to smaller WS sails.

%3A%2F%2Fwww.northsails.com%2F&embeds_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.northsails.com&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo

Load bearing yarns on a film, thats why I mentioned Avanti but you skimmed over that part.

Here you go, a 3Di moth sail from 2019, same surface area, MORE depth on a small surface, cams galore.

www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2019/06/north-sails-unveil-new-3di-sails-for-moth-sailors

I rest my case.

my bad, I misread your comment and thought the one design sails you saw were in the ws category not in the moth division .

Ws sail is way more articulate I don't see any leech opening on that moth sail for example.

So yes, I believe you have seen these sail run on moths for the last 5 years, for the WS this is till pretty new and the 3dl mould has been specifically designed to allow different contours of a ws sail.
the Race in particular is a monocoque sail which call at less drag and more speed as standalone concept.

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Carstendk said..
Some sailors make the trip around the world twice with the same 3di sail. That should convince everyone of the durability

How much of the trip around was that particular sail used for? I was under the impression that RTW sails were changed regularly with changing conditions?

Ill believe its better when i see North sails beating everyone regularly.

This should be two completely seperate threads.
One about Wave sails
One about Race sails.

They are completely different animals!!

I can see that there could be big advantages on wave sails with greatly enhanced cloth stability, and therefore much more stable sails. Wave sails generally have a very narrow wind range compared with Race sails and, in my experience, the draft moves all over the place in comparison. And indeed, user comments here suggest that this may be the case.

On the other hand, Race sails are already very stable and the shape very locked in. They can be made light and stable, but not very long lasting, or they can be made stable and long lasting, but no so light. Pick two and pay your money. About the only potential advantage I see in this tech. is the possibility of making a sail stable, light and long lasting. Or significantly lighter, but still as good performance and durability. But that is yet to be demonstrated.

They are definitely going to be at the top of the market price wise!! So if they don't attain the potential of being at least equal in performance/shape, and light and long lasting, there is no breakthrough. Or if they are significantly, and demonstrably faster, and more or less equal in other respects, that would be a breakthrough.

If they don't start winning races in the hands of sailors who didnt before, there is probably no performance breakthrough.

If they don't allow speed sailors to suddenly start breaking their PB's, same thing!

All sail brands have claimed their new Slalom/Race sails are faster every year, yet speed PB's don't necessarily bear this out. I don't think there is much doubt that Race/Slalom sails have become easier to use, and that can, and has, led to sailors enjoying their windsurfing more. But the actual speed improvements are much harder to see. Probably the area where we have seen the most improvement, is that a lot of sailors are now going faster on big sails in lighter winds as handling and stability has improved and made more difference in those bigger sails.

From a post on Windsurfing 44;

Regarding the X-Over (freeride/wave no cam), the weights are as follows:

7.4: 3.50 kg.
6.7: 3.30
6.2: 3.10
5.8: 2.95
5.4: 2.70

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sailquik said..
This should be two completely seperate threads.
One about Wave sails
One about Race sails.

They are completely different animals!!

I can see that there could be big advantages on wave sails with greatly enhanced cloth stability, and therefore much more stable sails. Wave sails generally have a very narrow wind range compared with Race sails and, in my experience, the draft moves all over the place in comparison. And indeed, user comments here suggest that this may be the case.

On the other hand, Race sails are already very stable and the shape very locked in. They can be made light and stable, but not very long lasting, or they can be made stable and long lasting, but no so light. Pick two and pay your money. About the only potential advantage I see in this tech. is the possibility of making a sail stable, light and long lasting. Or significantly lighter, but still as good performance and durability. But that is yet to be demonstrated.

I am not sure wave sail are less stable than race sail because of the fabric they use. They are made with similar materials and more often stronger ones. I think they are less stable sinply because of the different design requirements: the draft moves because it is designed to do so. And they also appear to be less stable because they operate in wind and sea regimens that can be much more extreme: you cannot stay locked in in position with a wave sail. Try to depower a cambered 7.0 in even moderate conditions to see how "unstable" it is!

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duzzi said..

sailquik said..
This should be two completely seperate threads.
One about Wave sails
One about Race sails.

They are completely different animals!!

I can see that there could be big advantages on wave sails with greatly enhanced cloth stability, and therefore much more stable sails. Wave sails generally have a very narrow wind range compared with Race sails and, in my experience, the draft moves all over the place in comparison. And indeed, user comments here suggest that this may be the case.

On the other hand, Race sails are already very stable and the shape very locked in. They can be made light and stable, but not very long lasting, or they can be made stable and long lasting, but no so light. Pick two and pay your money. About the only potential advantage I see in this tech. is the possibility of making a sail stable, light and long lasting. Or significantly lighter, but still as good performance and durability. But that is yet to be demonstrated.

I am not sure wave sail are less stable than race sail because of the fabric they use. They are made with similar materials and more often stronger ones. I think they are less stable sinply because of the different design requirements: the draft moves because it is designed to do so. And they also appear to be less stable because they operate in wind and sea regimens that can be much more extreme: you cannot stay locked in in position with a wave sail. Try to depower a cambered 7.0 in even moderate conditions to see how "unstable" it is!

Wave sails are less stable for several reasons.
They are flatter in shape and therefore the wind flow creates less pressure which itself locks in the centre of effort.
They have less battens.
They do not use camber inducers which locks the front edge in place.

I also think that a board with a larger fin helps the rig to be more stable as the rider moves around less and the water flow under the board is more regular than a wave board creating a more stable platform, less board wobble = less rig wobble.

A comparative test from Windsurfing UK for the North X-over www.windsurf.co.uk/6-0m-crossover-sail-test-2023/ As usual not that illuminating, but the North X-over does not really stand out in any particular way, including weight ("one of the lightest sails on the market", implying that there are some of comparable weight). Certainly it does not come across as a game changer. What stands out for me with the North is the tiny window! that must be the smallest in the market!

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duzzi said..
A comparative test from Windsurfing UK for the North X-over www.windsurf.co.uk/6-0m-crossover-sail-test-2023/ As usual not that illuminating, but the North X-over does not really stand out in any particular way, including weight ("one of the lightest sails on the market", implying that there are some of comparable weight). Certainly it does not come across as a game changer. What stands out for me with the North is the tiny window! that must be the smallest in the market!

All that and you have to use a special unique mast just for that sail. It's a huge cost.

Some friends have the north. Not sure if its the wave or the crossover. Both Really experienced sailors.

From what they said, one sail has pretty much replaced their quiver. They rate the north very highly both because of its insanely broad wind range and its weight and handling on the water. From what i saw id say the sail has at a minimum a 10knot wind range.

One of them uses it for freestyle, the other bump and jump.

One if them has chimed in about the sail in one of the sb threads.

To be honest the north is on my radar next time i replace my quiver.

If it's just one sail you need to cover a narrow quiver, then it would be worth it. A lot less stuff to carry around. I can't see one sail working for me.

I think they foil when its light.

Youll love this imax. They are not using the correct mast. not that i condone that sort of behavior.

That's outrageous
Im presuming cc skinny masts ?

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Imax1 said..
That's outrageous
Im presuming cc skinny masts ?

Neil Pryde maybe??

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duzzi said..
A comparative test from Windsurfing UK for the North X-over...

...Certainly it does not come across as a game changer.

funny you should say that, since those are the exact words they used to describe the sail on their (comparative) 5.0 X-Over test (yeah, right there on the first paragraph):
www.windsurf.co.uk/north-windsurfing-x-5-0-2023-test-review/

and on their (comparative) test of the 6.2 X-Over, they actually do say a lot more than what you imply:
www.windsurf.co.uk/north-sails-x-6-2-2023-test-review/

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Imax1 said..

All that and you have to use a special unique mast just for that sail. It's a huge cost.

sheesh, how dare they!
since after all, just any old mast one has laying about works like a charm on a Pryde (or Severne, or Duotone, or Point-7), no?

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Gestalt said..
Some friends have the north. Not sure if its the wave or the crossover. Both Really experienced sailors.

From what they said, one sail has pretty much replaced their quiver. They rate the north very highly both because of its insanely broad wind range and its weight and handling on the water. From what i saw id say the sail has at a minimum a 10knot wind range.

not to go that far, but i do know two people who replaced three-sail quivers with two Norths (one rides waves, the other bump & jump/freeride). this last dude then bought a third North to expand the conditions he can sail in (so, same number of sails, but more rideable days).

i do find the sails (Wave and X-Over) very rangey as well (while i wouldn't put a knot-number on that); and i also agree with your friends on the handling.

One sail to replace all my race/speed sails
I'll buy into that cool Aid 6 sails into 1 mmmm. Now can we do boards next please.

1st PWA slalom event at Lake Garda is on now. Someone has asked on the livestream who is on the North, but the answer was nobody, but the foil sails arent out yet. The French event for later this month has been canned, so they have until 1st July to get their act together. Thats slalom at Pozo, yes!!!!

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WindFlyer said..

Gestalt said..
Some friends have the north. Not sure if its the wave or the crossover. Both Really experienced sailors.

From what they said, one sail has pretty much replaced their quiver. They rate the north very highly both because of its insanely broad wind range and its weight and handling on the water. From what i saw id say the sail has at a minimum a 10knot wind range.

not to go that far, but i do know two people who replaced three-sail quivers with two Norths (one rides waves, the other bump & jump/freeride). this last dude then bought a third North to expand the conditions he can sail in (so, same number of sails, but more rideable days).

i do find the sails (Wave and X-Over) very rangey as well (while i wouldn't put a knot-number on that); and i also agree with your friends on the handling.

Anecdotes. People who buy equipment are always positively biased toward what they purchase, especially so when it is outrageously expensive. What sizes are in the new quiver? And what is the sail and sizes that it replaced? Personally, I really doubt that North sails can better my current SPY/SALT quiver, 5.4-4.7-4.2.

The Windsurfing UK review does not indicate any advantage range wise, if anything hinting at some stability issues (read between the lines about the need to apply downhaul). Compare the rather lukewarm review for the North with the glowing ones, for example Duotone ("The sails tuning range is truly exceptional"), Goya ("incredibly light ... incredible natural range"), Naish ("stable power and vast wind range.").

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duzzi said..
Anecdotes.

anecdotes to you, personal knowledge to me (can't speak for Gestalt).
the two people i refer to actually rode the sails beforehand, so they knew what they were getting into when purchasing them and actually considered other less expensive sails. one of them needed to get new masts regardless of final choice; when he did the math for sail/mast combos, he found the North price to be competitive with or even better than the other brands he was considering (popular brands in this forum, but didn't include Point-7).

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duzzi said..
People who buy equipment are always positively biased toward what they purchase

whether expensive or not, i do get that (and generally understand why); you yourself provide examples of this time and again.

i also get (while i can't say i understand why, though it may be the flip side of the positive bias you mention) is that in fora like this, some people feel the need to repeatedly dump on product (and by extension on its users) that for whatever reason or rationale they don't like and have zero interest in trying, let alone purchasing and owning; thanks for also providing examples of this.

Not a North Sails owner but I got to sail the Wave and the X-Over for 6 hours over 2 days. I really liked them. They felt light both on the land and on the water. I would normally have been on a slightly bigger sail but was able to plane easily so they definitely extend the range on the light wind size. And when the wind picked up a quick tug on the outhaul was enough, didn't need to add extra downhaul. So in stronger winds I can see adding an extra 1 cm of downhaul will extend the range. I'm not sure 1 North can replace 3 sails from other brands but I would agree that they have a wider range.

I didn't buy one because the window is too low for me but if they fix the window location I'd buy the X-Over

And compared to Severne they aren't expensive.

I was under the impression that you had to use a specific mast that wouldn't work on any other sails due to different diameters and bends compared to the main three types . Apparently you can . Do you need a specific mast base with those masts ?
I can't complain about price , I've just paid $1900 for a NP V8 and it's only got 2 camms
If I could swap my 6 sail quiver ,( 5.8 - 9.4 ), for 3 , it would make choosing a correct size easier.