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duzzi said..

cris21 said..
I don't understand the hate for a brand that at least is doing something new and different ...

North is a big corporation, and they are investing a little bit of their money to build a few windsurfing sails using a technology that has very questionable advantages when applied to very small sail surfaces. In the process of doing so instead of providing real numbers, that is the mechanical properties of the laminates they use, and have a real discussion on pro and cons, they have come out with a couple of years of a little carpet bombing of interviews, promotional videos, or amusing descriptions like the ones provided above. The claimed advantages, weight savings, strength, performance, have been all quickly proven false.

So, really, the whole thing is just a rather clumsy example of corporate-trying-to-get-away-with-it. Along those lines I am waiting for the other shoe to drop: AI driven sails! They are already gearing up the hype: www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2023/04/18/artificial-intelligence-and-sailing/

It appears that the users really like them. Gwarn had issues with durability and customer service but even that doesn't deter him from keep using it and he is still happy with the sail's performance in the water.

I demoed the X Over sail and I really liked it. Like mind blown liked it. But I'm waiting for version 2 so that they can fix all the initial problems before I plunk down my hard earned cash.

I have no experience with the race sails but the x over feels great for b&j and foiling. I am hoping to get my hands on the slalom soon.

I got to try the new North Ultimate Carbon 150-200 wave boom. I was very impressed with the performance. As skinny as the Duotone Platinum Mega Slim but significantly stiffer. I used it with a 6.4 (190 cm boom) and 6.1 (186 cm boom) and I loved it. Didn't want to give it back to the North ambassador.

So there are 2 parts of an otherwise exquisite boom that I think will put some people off:
1. It only works with sails with an outhaul pulley (eg North) or if you buy a removable outhaul pulley like Severne and Chinook sell.
2. There's no uphaul attachment point. So far I've seen 3 work arounds - tie some string around the boom head, or slip the top loop of the uphaul over the boom head before putting the boom on the mast, or attach the uphaul around the mast above the boom (need a long uphaul for that option).

Remedy for the high frequency leech flutter.
I just stuck on some little Rod battens where the flutter was and that problem is solved.
It's funny how they didn't do any of these things just so they can save a few grams.
Little Rod batons and some sticky back Insignia sail cloth.

Its no good bringing perfect new kit to the market. You need to leave flaws in order for you to produce the v2.0 mega update next season.

I have a 5.8 x-over.

These are light and good looking sails (when new) but in my opinion will just not last.

I have an identical photo to one earlier in this thread where the elastic at the mast base has disintegrated- mine fell apart after the first sail. It is an extremely light piece of elastic- its more like the stuff on underpants than on a sail.
I complained to North, but didn't get a response- so ended up sewing a decent piece on neoprene on.

After half a dozen or so sails, the leech and head of the sail are beginning to look ragged- so I ended up putting on some black ripstop tape to hold it together.......

This is all flat water sailing- so I wouldn't like to think what condition it would be in if used in surf.

It is pretty disappointing for an expensive sail- I won't buy a North sail again

?si=NLBA8eBF7IwxU_Iy

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barney5214 said..
These are light and good looking sails (when new) but in my opinion will just not last.

This has always been an issue with the more lightweight "Pro" sails from other manufacturers. So if you instead think of these North sails as their "pro"-version, then the wear issues are not totally unexpected (within limits).

I once had a Gaastra Nitro pro sail, one of the best race sails of the time. Both lightweight and durable, I bought it second hand and passed on after using it for 4-5 years, never a single repair needed (just some preemptive reinforcing tape where the boom rubs against the sail).

As for the North sail, I guess there is an iterative process in finding the optimum compromise between weight and durability.

Game on .... new release!!!!!

The website is down!!!! Must be getting hammered with traffic!!!

northwindsurfing.com/

Sails look sexy!!

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duzzi said..

40FrothyKnots said..

geoITA said..
Personal opinion, and about (fin) slalom sails only.To me they almost completely miss the point.
What is asked from a slalom sail is mostly control. We tend to sail overpowered, this means we usually have all the power we can ask for and then much more, and we have to deal with that. Control is what makes it possible to deal with that huge power.
So to my eyes at least, there is no need to devote resources for extra efficiency. I mean: if extra efficiency comes through accurate leech twist tuning and foil shaping, then it's OK, as it does not "cost" anything, BUT if it comes by use of special new "split battens" and special new cams and air bladder that need extra rigging operations, then no thanks, better keep things easy and simple. And, that said, let's see HOW MUCH more efficiency, or if any at all.
I admit for foils it may be different, as in that case more efficiency (if real) means less sideway forces to get the same forward thrust, and sideway forces in that case can not be dealt with by just pushing the fin as hard as possible like in fin slalom.
That said. Better cam rotation, well maybe (not sure about that from the video posted here above), but you can get good rotation on conventional sails too. Lightness, well OK that's good, but the quoted weights are really nothing special.
So what is left? I assume the sail body material is more durable than plain film, hopefully; battens are of the best quality (but I think the split batten configuration leads to some problems in getting a right aerodynamic foil). And price is super high.
Personally, what I am really interested in the new North Sails offering is about how the MDM masts will perform in a slalom sail.
I will be very glad to be proved too skeptical.

Ciao GeoITA,

My 2 cents on overpowered condition VS 3Di.
One of the main benefits of the 3dI technology is sailing in overpowered conditions, which, from what I understand, is your main concern.

...

The result is a preformed or pre-curved sail that might look a bit awkward on the beach (what all the haters are focusing on...) as not loaded, but then in the water and under the wind pressure and load and against the weight of the rider twisting the rig, the sail sits in "neutral" shape, as it's designed to be fully loaded.
(same as the pre curved racing suit for Moto GP riders, they look super awkward when standing tall as the suit its nt in its indented shape, when on the bike and all crouched up, the suits fits like a glove).
...

This is the thread that keeps giving! Despite repeated reports of broken wave sails, imaginary weight savings and non existent competition wins for the "race" models, and almost ZERO sales, you can count on a North seller to explain to you that the North sail are such a game changer because they work like Moto GP protection suits!!!!! Bravo!!!!

Duzzi I can try to explain to you, but I cannot understand it for you...

Same for all you previous posts when you repeatedly asked the "weight x sqm" of the 3Di "fabric" despite the whole forum was trying to make you understand that is laminate not a fabric.

Your personal crusade is coming visible to most users, you keep adding negative comments without having tried any of these sails, cherry picking pieces of comment and information to build up your personal attacks, something lawyers do really well...

Not Bravo, Bravissimo I'd say!!

When will the new model for the wave sails be available in Australia?

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JakeNN said..
When will the new model for the wave sails be available in Australia?

Hi Jake,

Stock ETA for the Wave v2 is 19/04, where are you located?
I have a 5.2 sample with me if you want to have a look. The other sample is with BoardCrazy in QLD at the moment.

Thanks .. good to know that they essentially available in Australia whilst I ponder and research

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40FrothyKnots said..

duzzi said..

40FrothyKnots said.

geoITA said..
Personal opinion, and about (fin) slalom sails only.To me they almost completely miss the point.
What is asked from a slalom sail is mostly control. We tend to sail overpowered, this means we usually have all the power we can ask for and then much more, and we have to deal with that. Control is what makes it possible to deal with that huge power.
So to my eyes at least, there is no need to devote resources for extra efficiency. I mean: if extra efficiency comes through accurate leech twist tuning and foil shaping, then it's OK, as it does not "cost" anything, BUT if it comes by use of special new "split battens" and special new cams and air bladder that need extra rigging operations, then no thanks, better keep things easy and simple. And, that said, let's see HOW MUCH more efficiency, or if any at all.
I admit for foils it may be different, as in that case more efficiency (if real) means less sideway forces to get the same forward thrust, and sideway forces in that case can not be dealt with by just pushing the fin as hard as possible like in fin slalom.
That said. Better cam rotation, well maybe (not sure about that from the video posted here above), but you can get good rotation on conventional sails too. Lightness, well OK that's good, but the quoted weights are really nothing special.
So what is left? I assume the sail body material is more durable than plain film, hopefully; battens are of the best quality (but I think the split batten configuration leads to some problems in getting a right aerodynamic foil). And price is super high.
Personally, what I am really interested in the new North Sails offering is about how the MDM masts will perform in a slalom sail.
I will be very glad to be proved too skeptical.

Ciao GeoITA,

My 2 cents on overpowered condition VS 3Di.
One of the main benefits of the 3dI technology is sailing in overpowered conditions, which, from what I understand, is your main concern.

...

The result is a preformed or pre-curved sail that might look a bit awkward on the beach (what all the haters are focusing on...) as not loaded, but then in the water and under the wind pressure and load and against the weight of the rider twisting the rig, the sail sits in "neutral" shape, as it's designed to be fully loaded.
(same as the pre curved racing suit for Moto GP riders, they look super awkward when standing tall as the suit its nt in its indented shape, when on the bike and all crouched up, the suits fits like a glove).
...

This is the thread that keeps giving! Despite repeated reports of broken wave sails, imaginary weight savings and non existent competition wins for the "race" models, and almost ZERO sales, you can count on a North seller to explain to you that the North sail are such a game changer because they work like Moto GP protection suits!!!!! Bravo!!!

Duzzi I can try to explain to you, but I cannot understand it for you...

Same for all you previous posts when you repeatedly asked the "weight x sqm" of the 3Di "fabric" despite the whole forum was trying to make you understand that is laminate not a fabric.

...

I am sorry but ... what are you talking about? 3Di technology has been the center piece for North sailing for more than a decade, and the use of 3Di laminates was the sale pitch for supposedly ultra-light windsurfing sails. Point is that to this day we have no idea of what is the weight saving offered by the laminate, yes in gm/sq^2 meter, and there is no overall weight saving at all for the race sails. But enough ... you won't be the first or the last to make a sale pitch on this forum. It's ok.

After all the super intense hype I have been considering a North 3Di wave sail. Since there is no such sail represented in both -top four men and women in the recent Chile Matanzas PWA/IWT wave contest, I will postpone for now. I will stick to my relentless glued and seamed Black Tips.

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duzzi said..


I am sorry but ... what are you talking about? 3Di technology has been the center piece for North sailing for more than a decade, and the use of 3Di laminates was the sale pitch for supposedly ultra-light windsurfing sails. Point is that to this day we have no idea of what is the weight saving offered by the laminate, yes in gm/sq^2 meter, and there is no overall weight saving at all for the race sails. But enough ... you won't be the first or the last to make a sale pitch on this forum. It's ok.

Yes , but
The 3di method is different to " rolled goods" sailcloth that ..comes on a roll. For this you can measure 1 M2 and that's the sailcloth weight.
For the 3di sails, the sail fiibers are laid up on a mould and are varied according to position, so a g/m2 sailcloth weight is meaningless , which m2?...the bit at the tack( heavier) or the bit near the tip in the middle( lighter.
Then your request for sail material weights is also a bit nonsensical as rolled good conventional sails tend to have varying sail weights throughout as well, you may use 5 Oz in the foot and 3 Oz up high FX. So what exactly are you comparing by requesting a per m2 sailcloth weight?

The only things that really matter are overall sail weight ready to sail versus longevity/ strength. So far the new north 3di windsurf sails don't appear to have an advantage over the other existing options. But it is a new product. Time will tell. And is it just me or did they get heavier this year?

For frothy, traditional sailcloth is also a composite, even wovens are composites of woven fiber and a resin which gives stiffness and bias stability. Laminates often contain more than one type of fibre+ film + adhesive. It's probably best you don't regurgitate the marketing speak without understanding it.

Select to expand quote

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..


I am sorry but ... what are you talking about? 3Di technology has been the center piece for North sailing for more than a decade, and the use of 3Di laminates was the sale pitch for supposedly ultra-light windsurfing sails. Point is that to this day we have no idea of what is the weight saving offered by the laminate, yes in gm/sq^2 meter, and there is no overall weight saving at all for the race sails. But enough ... you won't be the first or the last to make a sale pitch on this forum. It's ok.

Yes , but
The 3di method is different to " rolled goods" sailcloth that ..comes on a roll. For this you can measure 1 M2 and that's the sailcloth weight.
For the 3di sails, the sail fiibers are laid up on a mould and are varied according to position, so a g/m2 sailcloth weight is meaningless , which m2?...the bit at the tack( heavier) or the bit near the tip in the middle( lighter.
Then your request for sail material weights is also a bit nonsensical as rolled good conventional sails tend to have varying sail weights throughout as well, you may use 5 Oz in the foot and 3 Oz up high FX. So what exactly are you comparing by requesting a per m2 sailcloth weight?

The only things that really matter are overall sail weight ready to sail versus longevity/ strength. So far the new north 3di windsurf sails don't appear to have an advantage over the other existing options. But it is a new product. Time will tell. And is it just me or did they get heavier this year?

For frothy, traditional sailcloth is also a composite, even wovens are composites of woven fiber and a resin which gives stiffness and bias stability. Laminates often contain more than one type of fibre+ film + adhesive. It's probably best you don't regurgitate the marketing speak without understanding it.

Yes, all true, but it should no be difficult for a manufacturer to tell you what is the weight of the entire sail minus the battens and anything else that does not have to do with the sail body. Give that weight expressed in gm/m^2 and sure, it would be an average, because the laminate changes over the body of the sail, but you'd get an idea of the gain of the material with respect to a regular fabric. My bet is that the weight gain would be very minor because the surfaces we are talking about are so small.

At least with other manufacturers, Severne, Duotone, you can directly compare a regular and ultralight sail in the lineup. See for example the regular and SLS duotone Hero. Not completely ideal, to figure what exactly you are buying, but much better than having to rely on hype that, at least for the north race sails, proved eventually false.

Based on sailing a North X-Over I really thought my next sail was going to be a North, just as soon as they moved the window up high enough that I could see through it. But then Hot Sails Maui came out with their Lithium sails with the window strategically located so that I can see the wave. So now I'm the proud owner of a 6.1. When the box arrived I thought it was empty it felt so light. Putting it on the scales (with all 3 battens) and it comes in at 2.5 kg. Now that I have a new toy to try there will be no wind for the next 6 months :-(

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philn said..
Based on sailing a North X-Over I really thought my next sail was going to be a North, just as soon as they moved the window up high enough that I could see through it. But then Hot Sails Maui came out with their Lithium sails with the window strategically located so that I can see the wave. So now I'm the proud owner of a 6.1. When the box arrived I thought it was empty it felt so light. Putting it on the scales (with all 3 battens) and it comes in at 2.5 kg. Now that I have a new toy to try there will be no wind for the next 6 months :-(

Yes, and the difference (besides the lighter weight!) is that Hot Sail Maui has been winning international competitions with their sails for decades! With zero hype.

Select to expand quote

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..


I am sorry but ... what are you talking about? 3Di technology has been the center piece for North sailing for more than a decade, and the use of 3Di laminates was the sale pitch for supposedly ultra-light windsurfing sails. Point is that to this day we have no idea of what is the weight saving offered by the laminate, yes in gm/sq^2 meter, and there is no overall weight saving at all for the race sails. But enough ... you won't be the first or the last to make a sale pitch on this forum. It's ok.

Yes , but
The 3di method is different to " rolled goods" sailcloth that ..comes on a roll. For this you can measure 1 M2 and that's the sailcloth weight.
For the 3di sails, the sail fiibers are laid up on a mould and are varied according to position, so a g/m2 sailcloth weight is meaningless , which m2?...the bit at the tack( heavier) or the bit near the tip in the middle( lighter.
Then your request for sail material weights is also a bit nonsensical as rolled good conventional sails tend to have varying sail weights throughout as well, you may use 5 Oz in the foot and 3 Oz up high FX. So what exactly are you comparing by requesting a per m2 sailcloth weight?

The only things that really matter are overall sail weight ready to sail versus longevity/ strength. So far the new north 3di windsurf sails don't appear to have an advantage over the other existing options. But it is a new product. Time will tell. And is it just me or did they get heavier this year?

For frothy, traditional sailcloth is also a composite, even wovens are composites of woven fiber and a resin which gives stiffness and bias stability. Laminates often contain more than one type of fibre+ film + adhesive. It's probably best you don't regurgitate the marketing speak without understanding it.

Shedd, I appreciate the education on this and am always open to constructive feedback; in my last post I, I didn't use the word"composite" but used laminate instead.
(I might have misused the term composite in my previous post; I can't recall exactly).

Duzzi, you might be right saying hot sail maui has been winning comp over the last decade; but let's look at numbers too.
3Di sails have been in the market for little more than a year VS 10 years of hot sails in the market and competitions.
Also, we only have 1 Wave rider, Antoine, VS other brands that have dozens of riders.

Does 10 years in the market and a squad of riders give you many more chances of winning competitions? I think so.

In 2023, Antoine had 2 first and 1 second place, ranking 3rd for the 2023 PWT.

I think this is pretty good, considering it's the first year and the first version of this sail..

you are correct frothy, my apologies.

Select to expand quote

40FrothyKnots said..

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..


I am sorry but ... what are you talking about? 3Di technology has been the center piece for North sailing for more than a decade, and the use of 3Di laminates was the sale pitch for supposedly ultra-light windsurfing sails. Point is that to this day we have no idea of what is the weight saving offered by the laminate, yes in gm/sq^2 meter, and there is no overall weight saving at all for the race sails. But enough ... you won't be the first or the last to make a sale pitch on this forum. It's ok.

Yes , but
The 3di method is different to " rolled goods" sailcloth that ..comes on a roll. For this you can measure 1 M2 and that's the sailcloth weight.
For the 3di sails, the sail fiibers are laid up on a mould and are varied according to position, so a g/m2 sailcloth weight is meaningless , which m2?...the bit at the tack( heavier) or the bit near the tip in the middle( lighter.
Then your request for sail material weights is also a bit nonsensical as rolled good conventional sails tend to have varying sail weights throughout as well, you may use 5 Oz in the foot and 3 Oz up high FX. So what exactly are you comparing by requesting a per m2 sailcloth weight?

The only things that really matter are overall sail weight ready to sail versus longevity/ strength. So far the new north 3di windsurf sails don't appear to have an advantage over the other existing options. But it is a new product. Time will tell. And is it just me or did they get heavier this year?

For frothy, traditional sailcloth is also a composite, even wovens are composites of woven fiber and a resin which gives stiffness and bias stability. Laminates often contain more than one type of fibre+ film + adhesive. It's probably best you don't regurgitate the marketing speak without understanding it.

Shedd, I appreciate the education on this and am always open to constructive feedback; in my last post I, I didn't use the word"composite" but used laminate instead.
(I might have misused the term composite in my previous post; I can't recall exactly).

Duzzi, you might be right saying hot sail maui has been winning comp over the last decade; but let's look at numbers too.
3Di sails have been in the market for little more than a year VS 10 years of hot sails in the market and competitions.
Also, we only have 1 Wave rider, Antoine, VS other brands that have dozens of riders.

Does 10 years in the market and a squad of riders give you many more chances of winning competitions? I think so.

In 2023, Antoine had 2 first and 1 second place, ranking 3rd for the 2023 PWT.

I think this is pretty good, considering it's the first year and the first version of this sail..

Let's not open another can of worms, but are you really going to compare North Sailing with Hot Sails Maui? One of the biggest, if not the biggest, sail manufacturer on the planet, versus a family operation? (that, by the way, has been operating for thirty plus years, not ten.)

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

40FrothyKnots said..

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..


I am sorry but ... what are you talking about? 3Di technology has been the center piece for North sailing for more than a decade, and the use of 3Di laminates was the sale pitch for supposedly ultra-light windsurfing sails. Point is that to this day we have no idea of what is the weight saving offered by the laminate, yes in gm/sq^2 meter, and there is no overall weight saving at all for the race sails. But enough ... you won't be the first or the last to make a sale pitch on this forum. It's ok.

Yes , but
The 3di method is different to " rolled goods" sailcloth that ..comes on a roll. For this you can measure 1 M2 and that's the sailcloth weight.
For the 3di sails, the sail fiibers are laid up on a mould and are varied according to position, so a g/m2 sailcloth weight is meaningless , which m2?...the bit at the tack( heavier) or the bit near the tip in the middle( lighter.
Then your request for sail material weights is also a bit nonsensical as rolled good conventional sails tend to have varying sail weights throughout as well, you may use 5 Oz in the foot and 3 Oz up high FX. So what exactly are you comparing by requesting a per m2 sailcloth weight?

The only things that really matter are overall sail weight ready to sail versus longevity/ strength. So far the new north 3di windsurf sails don't appear to have an advantage over the other existing options. But it is a new product. Time will tell. And is it just me or did they get heavier this year?

For frothy, traditional sailcloth is also a composite, even wovens are composites of woven fiber and a resin which gives stiffness and bias stability. Laminates often contain more than one type of fibre+ film + adhesive. It's probably best you don't regurgitate the marketing speak without understanding it.

Shedd, I appreciate the education on this and am always open to constructive feedback; in my last post I, I didn't use the word"composite" but used laminate instead.
(I might have misused the term composite in my previous post; I can't recall exactly).

Duzzi, you might be right saying hot sail maui has been winning comp over the last decade; but let's look at numbers too.
3Di sails have been in the market for little more than a year VS 10 years of hot sails in the market and competitions.
Also, we only have 1 Wave rider, Antoine, VS other brands that have dozens of riders.

Does 10 years in the market and a squad of riders give you many more chances of winning competitions? I think so.

In 2023, Antoine had 2 first and 1 second place, ranking 3rd for the 2023 PWT.

I think this is pretty good, considering it's the first year and the first version of this sail..

Let's not open another can of worms, but are you really going to compare North Sailing with Hot Sails Maui? One of the biggest, if not the biggest, sail manufacturer on the planet, versus a family operation? (that, by the way, has been operating for thirty plus years, not ten.)

Dude I just stated the way I see it, I did not start the comparison, you have?

1 year in the game and 1 team rider, ranked 3rd overall in the 2023 PWT.

Of course a brand with 10 years in the market and many team riders has more wins to account, let's discuss this in few more years, then it will be a more accurate comparison, the rest is just speculation.

Select to expand quote

40FrothyKnots said..

duzzi said..

40FrothyKnots said..

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..


I am sorry but ... what are you talking about? 3Di technology has been the center piece for North sailing for more than a decade, and the use of 3Di laminates was the sale pitch for supposedly ultra-light windsurfing sails. Point is that to this day we have no idea of what is the weight saving offered by the laminate, yes in gm/sq^2 meter, and there is no overall weight saving at all for the race sails. But enough ... you won't be the first or the last to make a sale pitch on this forum. It's ok.

Yes , but
The 3di method is different to " rolled goods" sailcloth that ..comes on a roll. For this you can measure 1 M2 and that's the sailcloth weight.
For the 3di sails, the sail fiibers are laid up on a mould and are varied according to position, so a g/m2 sailcloth weight is meaningless , which m2?...the bit at the tack( heavier) or the bit near the tip in the middle( lighter.
Then your request for sail material weights is also a bit nonsensical as rolled good conventional sails tend to have varying sail weights throughout as well, you may use 5 Oz in the foot and 3 Oz up high FX. So what exactly are you comparing by requesting a per m2 sailcloth weight?

The only things that really matter are overall sail weight ready to sail versus longevity/ strength. So far the new north 3di windsurf sails don't appear to have an advantage over the other existing options. But it is a new product. Time will tell. And is it just me or did they get heavier this year?

For frothy, traditional sailcloth is also a composite, even wovens are composites of woven fiber and a resin which gives stiffness and bias stability. Laminates often contain more than one type of fibre+ film + adhesive. It's probably best you don't regurgitate the marketing speak without understanding it.

Shedd, I appreciate the education on this and am always open to constructive feedback; in my last post I, I didn't use the word"composite" but used laminate instead.
(I might have misused the term composite in my previous post; I can't recall exactly).

Duzzi, you might be right saying hot sail maui has been winning comp over the last decade; but let's look at numbers too.
3Di sails have been in the market for little more than a year VS 10 years of hot sails in the market and competitions.
Also, we only have 1 Wave rider, Antoine, VS other brands that have dozens of riders.

Does 10 years in the market and a squad of riders give you many more chances of winning competitions? I think so.

In 2023, Antoine had 2 first and 1 second place, ranking 3rd for the 2023 PWT.

I think this is pretty good, considering it's the first year and the first version of this sail..

Let's not open another can of worms, but are you really going to compare North Sailing with Hot Sails Maui? One of the biggest, if not the biggest, sail manufacturer on the planet, versus a family operation? (that, by the way, has been operating for thirty plus years, not ten.)

Dude I just stated the way I see it, I did not start the comparison, you have?

1 year in the game and 1 team rider, ranked 3rd overall in the 2023 PWT.

Of course a brand with 10 years in the market and many team riders has more wins to account, let's discuss this in few more years, then it will be a more accurate comparison, the rest is just speculation.

We know that you sell North products but ... do you know anything else about windsurfing? Hot Sail Maui, with founder Jeff Henderson, is one of the iconic manufacturers in windsurfing history. It has been around for close to 40 years, not 10. And apparently this family operation (you had a direct line with Jeff, and wife Jennifer when ordering) is now producing the lightest sail three batten on the market, the KS3 lithium, without much fanfare. Very expensive (in the North/Duotone/Severne highe-end territory) but here you go:

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

40FrothyKnots said..

duzzi said..

40FrothyKnots said..

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..


I am sorry but ... what are you talking about? 3Di technology has been the center piece for North sailing for more than a decade, and the use of 3Di laminates was the sale pitch for supposedly ultra-light windsurfing sails. Point is that to this day we have no idea of what is the weight saving offered by the laminate, yes in gm/sq^2 meter, and there is no overall weight saving at all for the race sails. But enough ... you won't be the first or the last to make a sale pitch on this forum. It's ok.

Yes , but
The 3di method is different to " rolled goods" sailcloth that ..comes on a roll. For this you can measure 1 M2 and that's the sailcloth weight.
For the 3di sails, the sail fiibers are laid up on a mould and are varied according to position, so a g/m2 sailcloth weight is meaningless , which m2?...the bit at the tack( heavier) or the bit near the tip in the middle( lighter.
Then your request for sail material weights is also a bit nonsensical as rolled good conventional sails tend to have varying sail weights throughout as well, you may use 5 Oz in the foot and 3 Oz up high FX. So what exactly are you comparing by requesting a per m2 sailcloth weight?

The only things that really matter are overall sail weight ready to sail versus longevity/ strength. So far the new north 3di windsurf sails don't appear to have an advantage over the other existing options. But it is a new product. Time will tell. And is it just me or did they get heavier this year?

For frothy, traditional sailcloth is also a composite, even wovens are composites of woven fiber and a resin which gives stiffness and bias stability. Laminates often contain more than one type of fibre+ film + adhesive. It's probably best you don't regurgitate the marketing speak without understanding it.

Shedd, I appreciate the education on this and am always open to constructive feedback; in my last post I, I didn't use the word"composite" but used laminate instead.
(I might have misused the term composite in my previous post; I can't recall exactly).

Duzzi, you might be right saying hot sail maui has been winning comp over the last decade; but let's look at numbers too.
3Di sails have been in the market for little more than a year VS 10 years of hot sails in the market and competitions.
Also, we only have 1 Wave rider, Antoine, VS other brands that have dozens of riders.

Does 10 years in the market and a squad of riders give you many more chances of winning competitions? I think so.

In 2023, Antoine had 2 first and 1 second place, ranking 3rd for the 2023 PWT.

I think this is pretty good, considering it's the first year and the first version of this sail..

Let's not open another can of worms, but are you really going to compare North Sailing with Hot Sails Maui? One of the biggest, if not the biggest, sail manufacturer on the planet, versus a family operation? (that, by the way, has been operating for thirty plus years, not ten.)

Dude I just stated the way I see it, I did not start the comparison, you have?

1 year in the game and 1 team rider, ranked 3rd overall in the 2023 PWT.

Of course a brand with 10 years in the market and many team riders has more wins to account, let's discuss this in few more years, then it will be a more accurate comparison, the rest is just speculation.

We know that you sell North products but ... do you know anything else about windsurfing? Hot Sail Maui, with founder Jeff Henderson, is one of the iconic manufacturers in windsurfing history. It has been around for close to 40 years, not 10. And apparently this family operation (you had a direct line with Jeff, and wife Jennifer when ordering) is now producing the lightest sail three batten on the market, the KS3 lithium, without much fanfare. Very expensive (in the North/Duotone/Severne highe-end territory) but here you go:

Duzzi, is it me, or you can't follow a conversation without twisting things in your favour?
You pointed out that North has not won anything yet; I counter that by saying we only have 1 year in the game, and 1 team rider who ranked 3rd in the past PWT.
Now you are asking me if I know anything about windsurfing only because I am unaware of how long Hot Sail Maui has been operating.
Regarding windsurfing, yes, I am not a professional rider, but I know something about it.
I have been a windsurfer for many years, racing slalom/race in Europe/Italy circa 1996-2002, wave riding was my real call.
After losing interest in using massive sails and giant boards, I switched to kiting a few years later. Now frothing on foiling wings/prone, this doesn't make me less enthusiastic about windsurfing in general.
I haven't researched Hot Sail Maui and its history; the fact that it has been in the market for 40 years does not change my line of work; it actually adds to my point that they had many more years competing and, hence, many more victories to claim.
Kudos to them for being a family setup in the current economy and coming up with such a light sail.
Again I am stoked to see brands to step up to the plate and coming with innovative products.

For the rest, I feel I have been hitting a brick wall when discussing it with you. The same goes for your posts asking to get the specific weight sqm of 3DI sails. People have tried to explain it to you in so many different ways. Again, we can explain it to you, but we cannot understand it for you mate.
Good luck with your crusade against North, I decided to refrain from answering further provocations. There is no glory or win in all this, or at least not for me.
I will keep answering anyone asking genuine questions/enquiries to the best extent of my abilities and knowledge.

Yesterday I've tried a new North Xover 3.7 in very strong wind, onshore and medium wave, with the right mast. Compared to my North Wave 3.7 the sail turns out to be much more intuitive in use, a very easy sail with which I found an instant good feeling. Probably the easiest and most comfortable sail I've ever tried in those conditions. Definitely a sail for everyone. I feel that its little sister the Wave 3.7 is superior in surfing particularly during cut back under gusts.
Balanced sail sailing center always steady even under the strongest gusts. I really liked it for its comfort to performance ratio.

Winter is back Garda Lake spot Capo Reamol, probably the coldest windsurfing session of my life. North Wave 4.7 and Starboard Kode Carbon 85. I love this combo easy windsurfing.

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