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FormulaNova said..
Memes are better, but making your own shows at least some creativity.

Who doesn't love memes...

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FormulaNova said..
Yeah, maybe, but I like to think that we had very little choice.

fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-pfizer-transmission-test/

What would have happened without vaccines? If most people decided or refused to get one, what would have happened? Could society have resumed as it was before Covid?

The lockdowns weren't pleasant, but what would have been the result if it was just let the virus do its thing? We have the 1918 pandemic to look back on and if it was anything to go by there would have been millions dead and no choice at all on whether you had a chance or not.

My recollection was that we were in lockdowns until the vaccines offered a way out. Had we not had them would we still have been going through these or would we have come out and just accepted that your elderly parents or aunties or uncles died and the young and lucky survived?

Should young people have been allowed to avoid the vaccinations? I don't know, and hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, maybe, but I like to think that we had very little choice.
fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-pfizer-transmission-test/
Should young people have been allowed to avoid vaccinations? I don't know, and hindsight is 20/20.

Well, maybe hindsight for some, but plenty were questioning it from the beginning.

That link you provided states that evidence of the vaccine's impact on transmission was obtained from real-world data after the rollout. So, people were forced to get vaccinated with no transmission testing and the evidence of the vaccine's ability to prevent transmission would then come after the rollout from the experience of the general public, not from a properly controlled trial? Do you really think that's acceptable!? Also, to make it worse, according to your link, the impact was a 31% reduction in transmission, which means the vaccine had no hope of stopping a virus with an R0 of around 5 to 6, which agrees with the continual spread we are observing. A 31% effectiveness would only stop a virus with an R0 of 1.4 or less, which is substantially lower than any of the COVID variations.

To simply say 'but the science has changed' or 'hindsight is 20/20' is completely ignoring why drugs normally take much longer to be approved in the first place. Sure, if there had been testing to show that it would reduce the R0 of COVID close to 1, then there's a reason to push for full public vaccination, but they didn't have any of that testing, and then all the post-rollout real-world data did was confirm that the vaccine wouldn't come remotely close to stopping the virus spreading, since the 31% effectiveness only reduces the R0 to 3.5 or 4. So what should be concluded from such results.....how about that you have a lockdown until everyone who wants to be vaccinated has had the chance, which is just what did happen. But forcing people to get vaccinated at the same time doesn't make sense unless you are not only happy for the world being used as a global test case for the ineffectiveness of the vaccine to stop transmission, but you're also happy for the world being used as the global test case for identifying serious adverse health effects.

Yeah, there's a good reason why the drug companies wanted indemnity....they didn't have anywhere near the time needed to test this stuff properly. That is the science. That's the reason it takes years to get a drug approved. That's why plenty of people have been concerned all along.

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Flying Dutchman said..

FormulaNova said..
Memes are better, but making your own shows at least some creativity.

Who doesn't love memes...

Nah, I don't go for memes. They are for half-wits who can't hold an argument.

Select to expand quote

Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..
Yeah, maybe, but I like to think that we had very little choice.

fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-pfizer-transmission-test/

What would have happened without vaccines? If most people decided or refused to get one, what would have happened? Could society have resumed as it was before Covid?

The lockdowns weren't pleasant, but what would have been the result if it was just let the virus do its thing? We have the 1918 pandemic to look back on and if it was anything to go by there would have been millions dead and no choice at all on whether you had a chance or not.

My recollection was that we were in lockdowns until the vaccines offered a way out. Had we not had them would we still have been going through these or would we have come out and just accepted that your elderly parents or aunties or uncles died and the young and lucky survived?

Should young people have been allowed to avoid the vaccinations? I don't know, and hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, maybe, but I like to think that we had very little choice.
fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-pfizer-transmission-test/
Should young people have been allowed to avoid vaccinations? I don't know, and hindsight is 20/20.

Well, maybe hindsight for some, but plenty were questioning it from the beginning.

That link you provided states that evidence of the vaccine's impact on transmission was obtained from real-world data after the rollout. So, people were forced to get vaccinated with no transmission testing and the evidence of the vaccine's ability to prevent transmission would then come after the rollout from the experience of the general public, not from a properly controlled trial? Do you really think that's acceptable!? Also, to make it worse, according to your link, the impact was a 31% reduction in transmission, which means the vaccine had no hope of stopping a virus with a R0 of around 5 to 6, which agrees with the continual spread we are observing. A 31% effectiveness would only stop a virus with an R0 of 1.4 or less, which is substantially lower than any of the COVID variations.

To simply say 'but the science has changed' or 'hindsight is 20/20' is completely ignoring why drugs normally take much longer to be approved in the first place. Sure, if there had been testing to show that it would reduce the R0 of COVID close to 1, then there's a reason to push for full public vaccination, but they didn't have any of that testing, and then all the post-rollout real-world data did was confirm that the vaccine wouldn't even come close to stopping the virus spreading, since the 31% effectiveness only reduces the R0 to 3.5 or 4. Not anywhere close to 1. So what should be concluded from such results.....how about that you have a lockdown until everyone who wants to be vaccinated has had the chance, which is just what did happen. But forcing people to get vaccinated at the same time doesn't make sense, unless you are not only happy for the world being to be used as a global test case for the ineffectiveness of the vaccine to stop transmission, but you're also happy for the world being used as the global test case for identifying serious adverse effects.

Yeah, there's a good reason why the drug companies wanted indemnity....they didn't have anywhere the time to test this stuff properly. That is the science. That's the reason it takes years to get a drug approved. That's why plenty of people have been concerned all along.

Harrow, what were the other options? If we put aside any questions about testing, what were the other options?

If we go back to the beginning of 2020, what would have you done to keep people alive and to return back to normal? It's a genuine question and I am curious about what others think could have or should have happened.

The indemnity of these vaccines has been discussed before, and in my opinion it was a requirement. What company would create and release a vaccine onto the market that had never been done before, in an emergency, if there were serious liability problems? Any lawyer in the company would stop them from doing anything. The CT nuts say 'follow the money' but the fact that a pharmaceutical company made money from producing it means nothing. So did other pharmeceutical companies.

What is your suggestion of how the pandemic should have been handled and the timeframes involved?

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FormulaNova said..
Harrow, what were the other options? If we put aside any questions about testing, what were the other options?

If we go back to the beginning of 2020, what would have you done to keep people alive and to return back to normal? It's a genuine question and I am curious about what others think could have or should have happened.

The indemnity of these vaccines has been discussed before, and in my opinion it was a requirement. What company would create and release a vaccine onto the market that had never been done before, in an emergency, if there were serious liability problems? Any lawyer in the company would stop them from doing anything. The CT nuts say 'follow the money' but the fact that a pharmaceutical company made money from producing it means nothing. So did other pharmeceutical companies.

What is your suggestion of how the pandemic should have been handled and the timeframes involved?

As my post said, you could argue that it made sense to have a lockdown until everyone that wanted to be vaccinated had the chance to do so. During that time, I guess you continue to do the appropriate testing for transmission effectiveness to inform ongoing vaccine policy, and at the same time, you make an equal attempt to record vaccine injuries as you make to record COVID hospitalisation and deaths.

I agree, the companies needed the indemnity, which emphasises the fact there hadn't been time for the vaccine to undergo the usual trials and safeguards....'emergency', as you say,

BTW, I'd vowed to stay out of this and sit back to enjoy watching the FN and FD show, but you keep coaxing me back in. Stop it!

"Campaigners, including a number of notable Skeptics, are calling on Immigration Minister Andrew Giles to deny a visa to influential anti-vaccine activist and COVID-19 misinformation spreader Peter McCullough. The US-based former cardiologist - last year he was stripped of his medical qualifications for spreading COVID misinformation - is set to tour Australia next month, along with United Australia Party national director Craig Kelly and Senator Ralph Babet, as part of speaking events organised by Clive Palmer's political party."

"When US NFL player Damar Hamlin collapsed mid-game following an apparent heart attack, anti-vaxxers quickly claimed his condition was a reaction to COVID vaccination . without knowing if he'd been vaccinated, and ignoring the fact that heart attacks are the most common reason for on-field collapses of athletes. Fox News' Tucker Carlson joined the conspiracists."

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Harrow said..

As my post said, you could argue that it made sense to have a lockdown until everyone that wanted to be vaccinated had the chance to do so. During that time, I guess you continue to do the appropriate testing for transmission effectiveness to inform ongoing vaccine policy, and at the same time, you make an equal attempt to record vaccine injuries as you make to record COVID hospitalisation and deaths.

I agree, the companies needed the indemnity, which emphasises the fact there hadn't been time for the vaccine to undergo the usual trials and safeguards....'emergency', as you say,

BTW, I'd vowed to stay out of this and you keep bringing me back in. Stop it!

Yeah, we all should stay out of this. No one is going to convince anyone of their side, but as long as no one gets upset, it should be okay.

I just have memories of ScoMo pretty much standing around saying that nothing could be done until we had a vaccine. I am not a fan of ScoMo, but there didn't seem to be any options. How quickly we block out of our minds the stress and uncertainty of a time only a short while ago.

I bought a book (the only book?) on the 1918 pandemic and it was sort of interesting. Not written that well although it could have had a different target audience, especially as it was written before anyone really expected another pandemic. The thing is though that they had no options and little idea of how to control it. There was no controlling voice dictating things and different people did different things. This was in a time where international travel was not as common or fast as it is now.

They had no vaccines to help and I think it eventually killed most of the people it was going to kill and the people that survived had some sort of immunity. It most likely evolved into a less agressive form too. Would you choose that path for us in the modern world?

But what do you do until that time? If you have a lockdown, does the threat go away with time or does it just hang around until the population moves around again? If you have a large enough population living with it it will probably evolve into a better form, but how many lives are acceptable to lose in this way. The reality is that an economy couldn't run very well in this mode anyway.

As another hypothetical, what if we had a vaccine that had a guarantee of NOT stopping transmission at all? I.e. it protected the vaccinated person from serious disease, but would happily spread through coughs and sneezes to the next person. Let's not get bogged down into whether this is the case now and just study this hypothetical.

Would you have taken it? Would you have waited until it was proven in trials? What would be a sufficient safety factor? What would be a reasonable amount of time?

The suggestion in that link is that cutting down on the affect a virus has on an individual also cuts down on its transmission due to people not showing symptoms or not as strongly, so it doesn't get passed on as easily. If it left you with a sneezing fit all day, but no otherwise health impacts, would you consider it safe if the alternative was a 50% chance of dying? A 30%? A 10% chance?

I am suggesting that if no one could have built a vaccine this time around, we would have had that scenario. We would have lockdowns and lots more people would be dying. Sure, you wouldn't feel as if you were being wronged by having a health problem from vaccination, but you could also be dead.

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FormulaNova said..
Harrow, what were the other options?

The same options we started with. The ones we had, the ones everyone agreed on until the politicians started to out-dick-wave each other.

Limiting the spread by all sorts of means up to the point where health systems were not overloaded. "Flattening the curve until herd immunity was reached" it was called. That was the plan.

But then suddenly Jacinta had the bright idea of elimination. Oh yeah, everyone had agreed that elimination was impossible and herd immunity was the final solution. But not smarty Jacinta. Nope, she promised no Covid in NZ. She could deliver elimination. She was a demi-god of the new age.

And so everyone followed suit. Because they didn't want to be the one with bad publicity the next morning who couldn't deliver what goody Jacinta could. If Jacinta could eliminate it then Dan could to. Dan mocked Gladys when NSW had bigger daily numbers than Vic. Annastacia wasn't going to only eliminate it, she even went as far as claiming on TV that she would do what ever necessary with lockdowns and whatever else so that not one QLD child died with covid. McGowan was the holiest of the holy. He could isolate his state from the world for all eternity and not have one case of zombie-covid. Yep, he was going to out-Jacinta Jacinta.

So elimination became the norm. The original agreed goal of flattening the curve and herd immunity got tossed aside like yesterday's newspaper.

But elimination required lockdowns, isolations and border closures. So they got imposed. Didn't matter if the health system was underloaded, overloaded or anything else. The goalposts were now somewhere else. The only thing that matter was the daily press conference and who got the biggest audience and most acclaim for heading to zero.

But then slowly they all came to realize the problem they put themselves in. Steve in SA first, then Gladys, then Dan. Took McGowan quite a while and eventually even Jacinta admitted it. Elimination not possible. Goal unachievable. Don't need hindsight for that FN. Obvious to everyone on day 1.

If elimination was not possible then the methods imposed to reach it weren't sensible. If the goal was flattening the curve and herd immunity you don't need the solutions they had imposed. But by now everyone had boxed themselves in. Couldn't just lift lockdown and border closures for no reason. Needed something politically palatable to justify imposing it all in the first place.


So along came the Vax. Riding high on a white horse. The savior. The Vax.

Yep, if we got 70% pf people vaxed it was all over. Lockdowns lifted. Borders open and reputations saved. Mainly reputations saved.

Remember at the that point no real world trials, no evidence the vax would work, no testing for if it stopped transmission. Most people suspected it would be as effective as the annual flu vax. (i.e. meh, does something sometimes, can help, generally better than not, but some people shouldn't have it and it ain't no savior).

But it was all they had. The only way out. Not the way out of covid but the way out of the endless lockdown and border closures problems the pollies had put themselves in.

So the vax it became. Daily counting to get to 70%. Why 70% ? why not ?. No evidence 70% would stop transmission. No evidence 70% helped the community or helped you. But need a number because it is now the only way out.

So they did everything they could to get to 70%. Pandemic of the unvaxxed they said. No access to shops if you are not vaxxed. No crossing the border without a certificate. Get the shot to save your elderly neighbor. Its for the good of the community. Any old story. Didn't need evidence, just needed a way out of the lockdowns and border closures that was politically palatable.

The other option, FormulaNova, was to stick with the original plan of flattening the curve and herd immunity devised by the medical advisors and pandemic planning groups. Shutting the Qld / NSW border that runs down the middle of a street and across the middle of a roundabout was the most stupid thing ever envisaged, and also the most ineffective.

Education, social distancing, ventilation in schools, masks on planes, limit visitors to old folks homes - all sensible and beneficial measures. Mandatory vax and closing state borders - not.


Explain this one :

12 months ago Novak was refused entry because he hadn't had the vax. Couldn't even step foot in the county without the vax. One unvaxed person was such a danger to all of society.

But now he is allowed entry without a vax. He is allowed entry if has covid symptoms and tests positive and has no vax. He can even play his tennis match in a crowed arena with the roof closed and a full contingent of spectators, none of whom need the vax, if he is suffering from covid on the court, has tested positive that morning and has had no vax. He can sweat, grunt and spit for 3 hours. No problem any more.

Is there really a medical or scientific justification for such a radical change in just 12 months ?

Only justification I can see is political. And that's my complaint.

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FormulaNova said..
As another hypothetical, what if we had a vaccine that had a guarantee ...

16 pages in and that's all anyone is saying mate.

We had a vaccine with no guarantee. But a compulsion to take it.

Hypothetically if the vaccine had a guarantee no problem.
Hypothetically if the vaccine had no guarantee and no compulsion to take it, no problem.
Hypothetically a vaccine with no guarantee but a compulsion (implied, implicit or otherwise) - yes a problem.



Hypothetically - if you were compelled to do something, the outcome of doing it is not in your control, but you must accept 100% of the risk with zero recourse, would you not atleast have a momentarily think about if is right to be compelled to do it ?

Andrew Bridgen suspended as Tory MP over Covid vaccine comments - BBC News

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Pcdefender said..

Suddenly it all makes sense. COVID vaccine was a conspiracy by Gates and Fauci to get back at the jocks that got all the girls in high school.

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FormulaNova said..
Memes are better, but making your own shows at least some creativity.
Who doesn't love memes...

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..

FormulaNova said..
Memes are better, but making your own shows at least some creativity.
Who doesn't love memes...

halfwit - just saying

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FormulaNova said..

PC and I are on the same team right? Why is he biting me? Does he fancy me? Is he kinky? Why is GAB.COM on his rear end jabbing him? Did GAB.COM mandate some jabs? I'm confused.

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hitch_hiker said..

FormulaNova said..

FormulaNova said..
Memes are better, but making your own shows at least some creativity.
Who doesn't love memes...

halfwit - just saying

sometimes you have to feed the lines to people... what's less than half-wit?

Select to expand quote

Flying Dutchman said..

FormulaNova said..

PC and I are on the same team right? Why is he biting me? Does he fancy me? Is he kinky? Why is GAB.COM on his rear end jabbing him? Did GAB.COM mandate some jabs? I'm confused.

Yes to all. Tell him the earth is also flat and he will explode.

Is it just me, but i tend to think the meme at the very top of this page is the best ever on SB and boy its accurate too.

They are now pushing the covid vax with the flu and some other one.

A 3 in one.

Sure looking tempting

Take your 3 in one and they will pay you 150 bucks - i am not making this up.

media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/124/814/915/playable/2568cb7f10cb7e22.mp4

Fabrice Ndala Muamba suffered a cardiac arrest during a televised FA Cup match between Bolton and Tottenham Hotspur, from which he recovered despite his heart having stopped for 78 minutes. Following medical advice, he announced his retirement from professional football.

No one is saying there has not been isolated cases but come on, it seems every second day now we hear of sports people collapsing.

U.S. - Medical experts are absolutely stumped as to what could be causing the recent uptick in healthy, young people everywhere that are suddenly collapsing with heart failure.

Despite their uncertainty, experts do feel confident that we can rule out that one thing as the culprit.

"It's too early to say what could be causing this, but it's never too early to say what isn't causing this," said local expert, Dr. Scott Rufflinger.

"This could be caused by anything. But the one thing we know for certain is that it's definitely not what we're all thinking that's behind this - if you know what I mean.

We can go ahead and rule that thing out right now because Science just called us on the phone and told us not to discuss it.

We always follow Science.

"According to sources, experts have been working tirelessly around the clock to try and get to the bottom of why so many seemingly perfectly healthy, athletic people are falling over suddenly.

"I wish I could point to something in the past year or two that large groups of people were exposed to, or forced into, but nothing comes to mind," added Dr. Rufflinger.

"If only there was one thing all these patients had in common.

"At publishing time, experts said they had narrowed down the list of what most likely was causing these sudden health issues down to: climate change, racism, Christian Nationalism, standing up too quickly, standing up too slowly, and not eating enough bugs.





Experts Say They Don't Know What Thing Is Causing Everyone To Suddenly Collapse, But It's Definitely Not That One Thing | Babylon Bee

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FormulaNova said..

They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

In this case I think those 1,000 words might be :

WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
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WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
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WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
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WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
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WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
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WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
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WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
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WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
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WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF

WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF ?

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myscreenname said..

Have you turned sceptical myscreenname?

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FormulaNova said..

hitch_hiker said..

FormulaNova said..

FormulaNova said..
Memes are better, but making your own shows at least some creativity.
Who doesn't love memes...

halfwit - just saying

sometimes you have to feed the lines to people... what's less than half-wit?

half-wit > those who believe in the "science" and will line up for another booster

Apparently it takes "several years" to work out if a vaccine is safe. The speed of science has certainly slowed lately.

Causes of mortality
Source: Mortality in the United States, 2020

Heart disease: 696,962
Cancer: 602,350
COVID-19: 350,831
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 200,955
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 160,264
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657
Alzheimer's disease: 134,242
Diabetes: 102,188
Influenza and pneumonia: 53,544
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 52,547

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hitch_hiker said..

FormulaNova said..

hitch_hiker said..

FormulaNova said..

FormulaNova said..
Memes are better, but making your own shows at least some creativity.
Who doesn't love memes...

halfwit - just saying

sometimes you have to feed the lines to people... what's less than half-wit?

half-wit > those who believe in the "science" and will line up for another booster

Your moniker is apt.

I find it a little bit funny when idiots, yourself as an example, think that 'the science' says take another booster. That is the sort of locked-in stupid thought process that you yourself would follow.

Is there even mention in the media about more shots? Has the government even turned around and said that they want to schedule more? I think most people have opted out of the 4th shot anyway.

Most reasonable people are now seeing that another vaccination is not warranted and going to provide limited benefit, even if we end up with one targetted towards Omicron. Of course, if we got a strain that turned up that was aggressive that might change.

But you wouldn't understand that, because you are seemingly not the sort of person that evaluates things. You are 'vaccine = bad' because someone told me.

Go back into your cave.