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KA360 said..


Cam- its the feeder class for people from sailing clubs only. They majority of windsurfers have never been a member of a yacht club and their kids don't Techno. 30 kids visit Sanctuary Point over summer, can't convince any of them to go along to a free have a go day for Techno.There is some real talent in that bunch too.

No Akim, that's incorrect the Slalom Nationals had two of the top three sailors in the womens division having cut their teeth in the techno class just as one example from the most recent event in the country.

If other windsurf clubs want to promote techno they are free to do so. Or they can promote whatever youth programs they see fit.

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cammd said..

KA360 said..


Cam- its the feeder class for people from sailing clubs only. They majority of windsurfers have never been a member of a yacht club and their kids don't Techno. 30 kids visit Sanctuary Point over summer, can't convince any of them to go along to a free have a go day for Techno.There is some real talent in that bunch too.

No Akim, that's incorrect the Slalom Nationals had two of the top three sailors in the womens division having cut their teeth in the techno class just as one example from the most recent event in the country.

Cam, there were a handful of under 25, sailors out yesterday, it's a good bet that they came through the RQYS centre of windsurfing excellence

Cam- Lara and Shari have come from yacht club environment. Sailing Bic and RSX at a high level has made them super strong. They transitioned over to slalom with ease after using big ,heavy equipment . Lara and Joanna are keen to spend some time with us down at Gerroa to have a crack at wavesailing. All 3 of these girls will be great at any discipline they participate in because of the toughness required for racing.
Now is the right time for them to gain new skills, experiences and thrills from the other disciplines . It will also help finding that little bit extra for racing.
My point was that the kids from a windsurfing background (short boarders) refuse to even try a Techno. I have told them there is much to learn from racing, it will make them strong using big, heavy gear and improve their overall skills. With the generosity of the windsurfing community to kids, for what it would cost for a 2nd hand Bic they could score a complete slalom kit and complete wave kit as well. To them its a no-brainer.
The yacht club kids are happy to try other disciplines but how do you get the short boarders to try racing?

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KA360 said..
Cam- Lara and Shari have come from yacht club environment. Sailing Bic and RSX at a high level has made them super strong. They transitioned over to slalom with ease after using big ,heavy equipment . Lara and Joanna are keen to spend some time with us down at Gerroa to have a crack at wavesailing. All 3 of these girls will be great at any discipline they participate in because of the toughness required for racing.
Now is the right time for them to gain new skills, experiences and thrills from the other disciplines . It will also help finding that little bit extra for racing.
My point was that the kids from a windsurfing background (short boarders) refuse to even try a Techno. I have told them there is much to learn from racing, it will make them strong using big, heavy gear and improve their overall skills. With the generosity of the windsurfing community to kids, for what it would cost for a 2nd hand Bic they could score a complete slalom kit and complete wave kit as well. To them its a no-brainer.
The yacht club kids are happy to try other disciplines but how do you get the short boarders to try racing?

Yeah I see your point, if they don't want to race then fair enough, it is great there is a youth scene down there on short boards. It would be great to see every short boarding location filled with kids windsurfing and every yacht club filled with kids racing windsurfers as well.

Whilst we encourage the kids to get into the freeride side of windsurfing as well as racing some of the techno kids are not so interested in that, my own daughter told me the other day that she is more interested in racing then just blasting around whereas my youngest son is very keen to spend more time on short boards.

Each to their own I guess.

Had a read of the latest Brit Windsurf mag today, it contains a 10 page advertising feature for DUOtone sails. The count of the number of times the word 'freeride' is mentioned in those 10 pages is 0, nil, zero. Considering it is obviously their announcement to the world of their focus over coming years it is good to see one of the high profile (?) sail lofts being mindful of the lifeblood of the sport, not. Or maybe free riders are the minority and insignificant in the scheme of things? I assume the GP margins on free ride sails and boards is no less than all the other sectors.

Yes just like the wider windsurfing community each individual finds a passion for a particular discipline.I have always encouraged kids to try them all to find the one for them.

Imagine if Jo,Lara,Shari,Derryn and Jessica spent the next year slalom training together. Then rocking up as a team at next years to the New Caledonian PWA event. That would be a shot of adrenaline for windsurfing in Australia.

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Paducah said..

Remember all those people windsurfing? Well, they quit for one reason or another - mostly because the equipment sucked and was hard to learn on. If it was so great, they would still be doing it today.

If it was that simple, why are Cobra (who have the best info about board sales) saying that the number of boards sold dropped by about 90% since 2000?

If you blame sucky equipment for the drop in the number of sailors during the '80s, what do you blame for the drop in the number of sailors since 2000? Does modern gear suck too?

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gorgesailor said..

Chris 249 said..

KA360 said..
Studies show that kids aren't interested in what argumentative old coots think.

Those studies are about what the kids want, not what about any old coot says. They are logical, independent and objective, which makes them much better evidence than the hate you throw around.

Yes, lots of the kids who get into Technos want to go shortboarding - and as you say, they can't because their parents have lives of their own. The sport has to deal with that. Not every kid has parents who flopped at their sport and wants to re-live their life through their kid. Not every kid lives in a coastal village. Most kids have to fit their sport into life within a family in major cities. Windsurfing has to deal with that.

Yes, lots of the kids who get into Technos want to go shortboarding. That's great. Shortboards are fantastic and only a liar would say that we longboarders have not said that shortboards are great, time and time again. FFS, look at the winners of longboard regattas and you'll see the names of people who have won kiting and wave nationals and PWA wavesailing titles and been on the national masters surfing team. These people know, and do, shortboarding better than you do.

However, those Techno kids got into the sport via a class that sails in all conditions, not via shortboarding. And the Techno class is great, but it only attracts a small minority of young sailors. Most young sailors are out there loving sailing their Optis, Lasers, and 420s. They are not into shortboards. Why not learn from that and learn from those kids?

You are missing my point .... & his IMHO... I am not saying every kid getting into the sport will be Wavesailing or doing extreme Freestyle, or even Speedsailing. I am saying this is the draw. The pinnacle of performance is the draw - regardless of what level they will participate. To me his argument is not to villainize or even neglect the high end because it is still the carrot dangling in front of our noses & filters down to the gear we will use in whatever discipline we chose.

But there's NO evidence that "the draw" works. That's not just something I say - it's what an endless number of serious, detailed studies into the factors that motivate people to get into sport say. It's also what commercial enterprises that do large-scale studies about sports publicity and participation have said.

The effects of "draws" of various types has been the subject of a lot of study because governments spend enormous amounts of money running events like the Olympics to try to draw people off their couches. To quote one source "Mega-events such as Olympic Games are invariably touted as producing widespread and significant increases in sporting activity. However, reviews of the sports research literature suggest that 'major sporting events have no inevitably positive impact on levels of sports participation'; similarly, the idea of a link between sporting role models and general sporting participation is not supported by evidence."

Time and time again, we see that "the draw" of seeing excellence does NOT get the typical person motivated to do the sport - in fact it may turn them off because they feel they will be crap in comparison. Okay, you and I and 360 and Paducah may get excited by a triple loop - but Joe and Joanne Average are not.

Just a simple look at the most popular sports will show that "the draw" of extreme action doesn't work. In most countries, the most popular sports are ones like swimming, road cycling, hiking and soccer. None of them are very "extreme". In Australia, for example there is just one "extreme" sport in the top 20 most popular sports and physical activities.

You referred to the West Coast USA - well, here's the truth about youth sports participation from the USA and LA in particular. See la84.org/wp-content/uploads/LA84-Foundation-Youth-Sports-Survey_Los-Angeles-County2016.pdf Again, the draw of 'extreme' sports isn't working - there's only two such sports in the top 21. The sport that most American still love to watch most, football, is only 10th most popular sport. It's the same in Australia. "The draw" of publicity doesn't create participants.

We can also look at water sports. Kayaking doesn't promote "the draw" of extreme whitewater, but it's growing enormously. Windsurfing does promote "the draw' of extreme sailing and board sales have dropped 90% over the same period.

The simple fact is that "the draw" of high performance DOES NOT work to attract the typical potential participant.

I'm not vilifying high performance - I say time and time again that it's fantastic. The point is that promoting extreme performance does not increase participation and may reduce it.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think the gear from the "high end" of speed or waves trickles down to the Raceboarders on upper Sydney Harbour, the One Design sailors off Parkdale, the SUP sailors or the Techno kids. Okay, it may trickle down to the Gorge, but the sport is bigger than that.

I agree with Chris that "extreme" or "high performance" aspects are not what will get most kids into a sport. Maybe being a windsurfer in the US makes it easy to get the wrong impression - there are very few young windsurfers at many popular spots, but if you see a young windsurfer, chances are quite high that they are interested in high-level freestyle or wave sailing in crazy conditions.

In the US, soccer has close to zero presence on TV, but is the most commonly played youth sport (according to engagesports.com/blog/post/1488/youth-sports-participation-statistics-and-trends). There's nothing extreme about soccer.

By focussing on "high-performance" windsurfing, we have ended up with two different sports - some call the light wind version boardsailing, and reserve "windsurfing" for planing on shortboards. That ended up giving longboards and light-wind sailing the stigma of "beginner" - who wants that? Even worse, despite the fact that hundreds of thousands of windsurfers have learned to windsurf on "tippy" boards like the original Windsurfer, the industry decided to focus on "easy" wide boards for beginners. That only widened the gap between the two sports, and took 95% of the fun out of light wind "boardsailing". Here's a little story to illustrate this point:
My wife usually displays the typical "windsurfer" behavior, and does not bother to go out unless there's a good chance to plane. When it's a light wind day, I'm often the only one on the water, having fun on a longboard or doing light wind freestyle on a windSUP. But we recently got an old D2 board, and she was curious how it sails. Every time she's been on the D2, she has had a ton of fun. That includes days where the wind picked up and she could have planed on slalom or freestyle gear, but she chose to stick with the D2 instead. Just a couple of days ago, I managed to get her out onto the water on the D2 in 8-10 knots, with an occasional gust of 15. She had a huge grin on her face the entire time, and even started touring a bit, something she never does. She kept saying "I don't know why this is so much fun!". I thinks it's partly the easy glide and seamless acceleration of the longboard (especially the D2), and partly that the board is a bit harder to sail and turn. Even a moderate "beginner board" like the Fanatic Viper lacks a bit on both of these areas - and it's still a beginner board that any reasonable windsurfer wants to outgrow as quickly as possible.

Needless to say, I'm quite excited about the Windsurfer LT, and about how fast it is spreading in Europe and Australia. But I'm afraid sightings in the US will remain rare events.

Is AA losing it !!! ?

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NelsonFoils said..
Is AA losing it !!! ?

No clearly not. It shows in "subfoiling" conditions the longboards rule. I note the Randy Naish "Star Sail" Gaastra Powerhead in evidence in the background in the first photo. That is very classic. Here is it back in 1983.

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Chris 249 said..

gorgesailor said..

Chris 249 said..

KA360 said..
Studies show that kids aren't interested in what argumentative old coots think.

Those studies are about what the kids want, not what about any old coot says. They are logical, independent and objective, which makes them much better evidence than the hate you throw around.

Yes, lots of the kids who get into Technos want to go shortboarding - and as you say, they can't because their parents have lives of their own. The sport has to deal with that. Not every kid has parents who flopped at their sport and wants to re-live their life through their kid. Not every kid lives in a coastal village. Most kids have to fit their sport into life within a family in major cities. Windsurfing has to deal with that.

Yes, lots of the kids who get into Technos want to go shortboarding. That's great. Shortboards are fantastic and only a liar would say that we longboarders have not said that shortboards are great, time and time again. FFS, look at the winners of longboard regattas and you'll see the names of people who have won kiting and wave nationals and PWA wavesailing titles and been on the national masters surfing team. These people know, and do, shortboarding better than you do.

However, those Techno kids got into the sport via a class that sails in all conditions, not via shortboarding. And the Techno class is great, but it only attracts a small minority of young sailors. Most young sailors are out there loving sailing their Optis, Lasers, and 420s. They are not into shortboards. Why not learn from that and learn from those kids?

You are missing my point .... & his IMHO... I am not saying every kid getting into the sport will be Wavesailing or doing extreme Freestyle, or even Speedsailing. I am saying this is the draw. The pinnacle of performance is the draw - regardless of what level they will participate. To me his argument is not to villainize or even neglect the high end because it is still the carrot dangling in front of our noses & filters down to the gear we will use in whatever discipline we chose.

But there's NO evidence that "the draw" works. That's not just something I say - it's what an endless number of serious, detailed studies into the factors that motivate people to get into sport say. It's also what commercial enterprises that do large-scale studies about sports publicity and participation have said.

The effects of "draws" of various types has been the subject of a lot of study because governments spend enormous amounts of money running events like the Olympics to try to draw people off their couches. To quote one source "Mega-events such as Olympic Games are invariably touted as producing widespread and significant increases in sporting activity. However, reviews of the sports research literature suggest that 'major sporting events have no inevitably positive impact on levels of sports participation'; similarly, the idea of a link between sporting role models and general sporting participation is not supported by evidence."

Time and time again, we see that "the draw" of seeing excellence does NOT get the typical person motivated to do the sport - in fact it may turn them off because they feel they will be crap in comparison. Okay, you and I and 360 and Paducah may get excited by a triple loop - but Joe and Joanne Average are not.

Just a simple look at the most popular sports will show that "the draw" of extreme action doesn't work. In most countries, the most popular sports are ones like swimming, road cycling, hiking and soccer. None of them are very "extreme". In Australia, for example there is just one "extreme" sport in the top 20 most popular sports and physical activities.

You referred to the West Coast USA - well, here's the truth about youth sports participation from the USA and LA in particular. See la84.org/wp-content/uploads/LA84-Foundation-Youth-Sports-Survey_Los-Angeles-County2016.pdf Again, the draw of 'extreme' sports isn't working - there's only two such sports in the top 21. The sport that most American still love to watch most, football, is only 10th most popular sport. It's the same in Australia. "The draw" of publicity doesn't create participants.

We can also look at water sports. Kayaking doesn't promote "the draw" of extreme whitewater, but it's growing enormously. Windsurfing does promote "the draw' of extreme sailing and board sales have dropped 90% over the same period.

The simple fact is that "the draw" of high performance DOES NOT work to attract the typical potential participant.

I'm not vilifying high performance - I say time and time again that it's fantastic. The point is that promoting extreme performance does not increase participation and may reduce it.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think the gear from the "high end" of speed or waves trickles down to the Raceboarders on upper Sydney Harbour, the One Design sailors off Parkdale, the SUP sailors or the Techno kids. Okay, it may trickle down to the Gorge, but the sport is bigger than that.

I am afraid that Los Angeles study is not very helpful. It is unfortunate but inner city kids are not really potential participants - sadly not realistic. Looking at the top Sports(mostly Baseball, Soccer etc...)it is all about opportunity & convenience. Windsurfing is not going to be on the radar - not even the peripheral vision. You have to know your target audience & market to them. Look at more similar sports such as skateboarding, it is the extreme side that has the image appeal - even if the kid never goes to a skate park throwing 900's in the 1/2 pipe but instead buys cruiser board. There is a coolness factor. If the kid takes up Windsurfing & is sailing with his longboard at the lake having a blast & tells his friends he's a windsurfer, Do you think he is bothered his friends think of Koster doing stalled forwards or Wavesailing at Hookipa? As for Raceboarders, One Designs & Sailing clubs ... Sadly, it simply does not exist here. There are places in the US where it could take hold, but mostly there is no existing structure to promote or support for it. WIndSup on the other hand is very promising. For example, yesterday I took the wife & kids to the beach. I was out on an inflatable WindSUP cruising around the cove with the SUP's, it was great fun & got a ton of looks, quite a few questions, & taught 3 lessons on it. Meanwhile 500 yards away in the river guys are planing on 5.0's. Do you think they weren't making the connection? Not saying light wind sailing is boring or shouldn't be promoted, just saying that I still think the extreme side of the sport has value when promoting to the young audience - especially the target sub market. I also think the light wind facet can & should be promoted, but it is more difficult in some places without existing club infrastructure. Instead I think the SUP crossover aspect should be promoted further. As for the WindsurferLT I think it is a great platform, in fact it is highly likely I will be involved in getting some over here in the US. In my opinion it will be a success & it will not be as a One Design racing platform, but rather on it's own merits as an economical, versatile, entry level Windsurfing & SUP package for the masses.

As for the high end not trickling down... well maybe not for the One Design - by nature it is not developing, but for average Joe Freerider, the gear that wavesailors & racers are using has massively increased the wind range, speed, versatility, & fun factor of the gear the rest of us use.

As for the high end not trickling down... well maybe not for the One Design - by nature it is not developing, but for average Joe Freerider, the gear that wavesailors & racers are using has massively increased the wind range, speed, versatility, & fun factor of the gear the rest of us use.

Also the cost !
you have to start

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gorgesailor said..

I am afraid that Los Angeles study is not very helpful. It is unfortunate but inner city kids are not really potential participants - sadly not realistic.

Looking at the top Sports(mostly Baseball, Soccer etc...)it is all about opportunity & convenience. Windsurfing is not going to be on the radar - not even the peripheral vision.

You have to know your target audience & market to them. Look at more similar sports such as skateboarding, it is the extreme side that has the image appeal - even if the kid never goes to a skate park throwing 900's in the 1/2 pipe but instead buys cruiser board. There is a coolness factor.

If the kid takes up Windsurfing & is sailing with his longboard at the lake having a blast & tells his friends he's a windsurfer, Do you think he is bothered his friends think of Koster doing stalled forwards or Wavesailing at Hookipa?

Clubs for Raceboarders, One Designs & Sailing clubs ... Sadly, it simply does not exist here. There are places in the US where it could take hold, but mostly there is no existing structure to promote or support for it. WIndSup on the other hand is very promising.

For example, yesterday I took the wife & kids to the beach. I was out on an inflatable WindSUP cruising around the cove with the SUP's, it was great fun & got a ton of looks, quite a few questions, & taught 3 lessons on it. Meanwhile 500 yards away in the river guys are planing on 5.0's. Do you think they weren't making the connection? Not saying light wind sailing is boring or shouldn't be promoted, just saying that I still think the extreme side of the sport has value when promoting to the young audience - especially the target sub market. I also think the light wind facet can & should be promoted, but it is more difficult in some places without existing club infrastructure. Instead I think the SUP crossover aspect should be promoted further. As for the WindsurferLT I think it is a great platform, in fact it is highly likely I will be involved in getting some over here in the US. In my opinion it will be a success & it will not be as a One Design racing platform, but rather on it's own merits as an economical, versatile, entry level Windsurfing & SUP package for the masses.

As for the high end not trickling down... well maybe not for the One Design - by nature it is not developing, but for average Joe Freerider, the gear that wavesailors & racers are using has massively increased the wind range, speed, versatility, & fun factor of the gear the rest of us use.

With respect, inner city kids and adults can and do windsurf. London, for example, is a huge city but it has two fleets within 9-12 miles of its centre. Sydney has a couple of fleets within about 6 miles of its centre and used to have more. Liverpool has windsurfing within a few hundred yards of downtown and a noted speedsailing spot within 10 miles. There's several clubs within a few miles of major British inland cities like Nottingham and Sheffield. Many of the Italian Windsurfer One Design racers live in Rome, a densely-populated city.

Lots of kids in major densely-populated cities like Sydney, London, Berlin and Hamburg sail dinghies. If they can sail dinghies, they can sail windsurfers. In fact, the easy storage of windsurfers makes them an ideal way to get inner city kids and adults afloat. Inner city kids are clearly actual participants. That's the facts.

Yes, getting kids into sport is all about opportunity and convenience - so let's promote the windsurfing they can do at almost any opportunity in a convenient way.

When it comes to coolness, it's still the case that sports that are not very cool are very popular. As noted, paddling a plastic sit-on-top kayak is not cool, but it's enormously popular and growing fast. Cycling on road bikes is similar. Kids sailing in Optis isn't very cool, but it's more popular than cool extreme windsurfing. Cool and extreme sports are simply less popular than accessible and practical ones, and that's a simple fact that cannot be denied.

The situation with sailing infrastructure in the USA is sad, but that's just the USA. In the past, windsurfing did OK with the same infrastructure issues. Perhaps if windsurfing changed its attitude, it could use more of the infrastructure of the existing small boat sailing clubs as it does in other countries?

It seems from your later paragraphs that we agree on a fair bit. I have never dissed high wind and shortboard sailing, something that I have dearly loved and been very much into. All I'm saying is what you say in your last paragraphs - that light winds and longboarding should be celebrated just as much as high winds and short boards.

I'm still a bit unsure about the trickle down. The top end competitors in any sport, even just the top end at national and state level, are normally in such a different bracket that what works for them often doesn't work for Joe and Joanna Average. For example, a top-end longboard racer will happily sail a Lechner in 25 knots but Joe and Joanna couldn't get off the beach on such a board in those conditions. So if the gear is tailored for the top end, it may not work well for the rest.

Good luck on getting the LT moving!

Well said Chris, I agree 100%, opportunity and accessibility are key, the coolness factor is cool but its not the "draw" that many think it is.

The places where opportunity and accessibility exist in Australia we see growth, a couple of places that come to mind are RQYS and Woollahra Sailing clubs with the techno class, but also KA360 has been providing opportunity and accessibility for kids at Sanctuary point on short boards and it is a place where youth windsurfing is growing.

We choose to promote techno class because its something that fits into a sailing club nicely and is possible to run every week, (given in Brisbane we don't get consistently strong winds required for other types of windsurfing). The benefit of having it in a sailing club is the infrastructure already exists and now its established as a mainstream activity in the club the need for myself or others volunteering every weekend standing in waist deep water teaching kids to windsurf has disappeared. We now have paid instructor's, coaches and formal programs from entry level to competitive racer.

That's not to say the above is the only way, its just the way we chose to go at RQ, other people can do whatever they see fit but one thing is certain, sitting on keyboard theorising about what's best won't grow the sport, posting a few cool picture's or video on youtube won't grow the sport. It takes people to provide the opportunity and accessibility.

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Chris 249 said..
With respect, inner city kids and adults can and do windsurf. London, for example, is a huge city but it has two fleets within 9-12 miles of its centre. Sydney has a couple of fleets within about 6 miles of its centre and used to have more. Liverpool has windsurfing within a few hundred yards of downtown and a noted speedsailing spot within 10 miles. There's several clubs within a few miles of major British inland cities like Nottingham and Sheffield. Many of the Italian Windsurfer One Design racers live in Rome, a densely-populated city.

Pretty amazing that there are so many fleets and clubs in the UK. It's very different in the US. Boston happens to have a community sailing club, and Berkeley has something similar, but they are the exception. Take Corpus Christi as an example: a medium-size city with lots of water access, both open ocean and the very beginner-friendly Laguna Madre. But local store owners report that teaching is pretty much limited to tourists - many local kids never make it to the beach at all.

Doing the "in-thing" is very important in the US. Windsurfing has been not "in" in the US for a long time - so much that a video clip of John Kerry windsurfing contributed a lot to him loosing the presidential election in 2004. One of the few local windsurfing kids was out on a lake a few years back and got called "gay" because he windsurfed - by 4 guys his age, all crammed into a little motorboat. Fortunately, he thought that was quite amusing, but plenty of kids are very concerned about what others might think. The level of ignorance in the US is also quite astounding. The typical responses to "I windsurf" are blank stares and "Is that with the big kite in the air?".

There are some interesting cultural differences. In many parts of Europe, doing something fun is important. In the US, owning is more important - preferably something bigger and better than your neighbors. I can't wait to see what the windsurf culture in Australia is like!

Hate to say in Australia I just don't see windsurfing surviving the millenials, some things are just dinosaurs & not meant to survive. Promoting racing for kids... great for those that are doing it but sailing in Brisbane it's very rare seeing any of the RQ folk sailing any other spot or doing anything other than course race training.

I & im sure many others here did alot of competitive sport growing up & when was the last time you jumped in a pool to swim for fun, ran some laps, kicked a footy etc (yes many probably have done something like that but the people here are the exception, we're already getting off our a$$ & doing some activity). In short just because you are pushing kids to some competitive thing does not translate to long termers.

Windsurfing is not accessible, expensive, not social while you are doing it, rarely coached & takes a fair chunk of self assessment, tenacity & continual commitment to maintain a reasonsble level let alone improve.

Aiming windsurfing at kids & hoping that is the future is worthwhile for them but won't grow the sport, same happens to them as happened to me & all the guys & girls I windsurfed with as a teen... life happens. Sure continue with the development programs & fun focused school holiday windsurf camps for kids would be great as is done with many other sports. But windsurfing should be focusing promotion on the post life happens semi disposible income late 20's/30's people, they might stick with it, they can maybe afford to buy new gear which can in time filter down to new comers & young folk.

Gear wise well many of us are not really contributing to the sport, how many contributors to this thread bought a new board this year. & many windsurfers are a technically minded bunch who like to use what is on the cutting edge of the sport, not great for handing down. It's almost like freeride is a dirty word when it's what the majority actually do just baffing.

There sometimes seems to be a latent hostility where everyone loves to be pigeon holed into do you wavesail, freestyle, freeride, bump n jump, slalom, gps, raceboard, foil, formula, techno wally, windsup etc etc etc & the groups don't mix, what a segregated sport, how can it possibly focus on a direction... which path is the future. Instead the manufacturers just want to keep bringing the next thing like foils or windsurfer xyz's & i can't have a go at friendly course racing with my not one design trademarked windsup? well your loss.

Windsurfing is lucky to a passionate group of stalwarts to keep it going but are we the best people to evaluate the health of the sport? Look sideways to the rise & rise & demise (locally) of kiting. Sure things that fly in the air capture our inner child wonder but is that what prompted it's success? On a visual & ability scale it isn't much different, maybe a little more with them being bigger, more colourful & ridden closer to shore. It has the x factor of wakeboarding, better accessibility than windsurfing & not having to travel to a crowded surf break.

But as a casual observer it has 2 things windsurfing does not have, it is inherently social & many smiles, whereas windsurfing has the intense concentration race face thing going on (& yeah im very guilty of this myself). How much cooler did advertisements containing Josh Stones or Brian Talmas big beaming grins look? To the public comparing windsurfing to kiting one looks fun, the other looks... hard.

What has brought about the demise of kiting around here? It was targeted at the young, again life got in the way. It also requires alot of commitment & effort to progress to the next level. When it first hit I seem to recall it was quite a bit cheaper than windsurfing, now it is expensive. & around here after all that it's been left with a small group of regulars who are similar age to the windsurfers.

& cost affecting windsurfing... new boards approaching $4000 that's crazy, inflation of $100 per year in the last 15 years, & even back then when a new f2 or mistral cost $2400 those brands suffered bigtime in sales from local customs & cheap plastic or glass boards. But that's what happens when you have a monopoly with the cobra situation. I'm lucky enough to have a sh**load of gear but no way would i have even a quarter of it at full rrp, if i was a new comer & saw the prices even with my financial situation I would never have taken up windsurfing.

We shouldn't forget what it's like to be a potential new comer to the sport. Supping took off because it's easy & looks easy. Wally's & windsups look easy. Gps'ers zipping past, people doing loops, riding big waves or doing unfathomable freestyle moves is about as relevant to their minds as us looking at say hang gliding, yeah it looks cool but there is just so much going on for a mere mortal.

I got to experience the whole considering getting into the sport viewpoint last year with kiting, I wouldn't mind giving it a go, it has it's appeal to certain conditions & to me is as relevant as say adding a bump n jump setup to your quiver. But I tend to buy new stuff when I can, ballpark figures kite $2-2500, twin tip board with straps & fins $1000ish, bar/lines/harness $1000ish, lessons $500+. $5000 to jump into a new sport & only have one setup yeah nah, & people looking at getting into windsurfing would be thinking the exact same thing.

I was looking forward to see the impact the new wally's might have had on the sport purely on the initial rumours regarding pricing structure. $2000 seemed a reasonable price point for something that is easy to use, LOOKS easy to use, versatile, useable in a wide range of conditions & doesnt weigh a tonne (but is too long!). Final pricing though was different when really to be perfectly aimed at people looking at getting into the sport sub $2000 full turn key including paddle, uphaul, harness & carry bag should have been their goal.

Probably some retailers would read that & go hah you're dreaming but sometimes you have to sacrifice a little to expand your market, look at the industry that has developed from cheap kayaks becoming available. & why aim a discount at existing racers when all they had to do to make it appeal to them is make it perform better, just another example of how backwards this sport has things sometimes.

There is obviously some appeal for people still there, over summer it's pretty much daily where someone will approach one of us at my local beach & start asking questions but it's so disheartening when it comes to how much then oh & they walk away.

All things considered it's destined to be a dinosaur, there is just too many adverse internal & external forces affecting it but i'm going to keep on loving it while it's around & while I can

Make it easy to access and they will come. Windsurfing is still alive and well in the Gorge with more people out on the water this year than I have seen in a long time. Great kids program, good schools, easy access to the water and lots of wind from May to October. Even better Americans are happy again and looking at a bright future, that helps them to spend and come and enjoy the things they love. This year was the 35th year of windsurfing in the Gorge, where did that time go!

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boardsurfr said..

Chris 249 said..
With respect, inner city kids and adults can and do windsurf. London, for example, is a huge city but it has two fleets within 9-12 miles of its centre. Sydney has a couple of fleets within about 6 miles of its centre and used to have more. Liverpool has windsurfing within a few hundred yards of downtown and a noted speedsailing spot within 10 miles. There's several clubs within a few miles of major British inland cities like Nottingham and Sheffield. Many of the Italian Windsurfer One Design racers live in Rome, a densely-populated city.

Pretty amazing that there are so many fleets and clubs in the UK. It's very different in the US. Boston happens to have a community sailing club, and Berkeley has something similar, but they are the exception. Take Corpus Christi as an example: a medium-size city with lots of water access, both open ocean and the very beginner-friendly Laguna Madre. But local store owners report that teaching is pretty much limited to tourists - many local kids never make it to the beach at all.

Doing the "in-thing" is very important in the US. Windsurfing has been not "in" in the US for a long time - so much that a video clip of John Kerry windsurfing contributed a lot to him loosing the presidential election in 2004. One of the few local windsurfing kids was out on a lake a few years back and got called "gay" because he windsurfed - by 4 guys his age, all crammed into a little motorboat. Fortunately, he thought that was quite amusing, but plenty of kids are very concerned about what others might think. The level of ignorance in the US is also quite astounding. The typical responses to "I windsurf" are blank stares and "Is that with the big kite in the air?".

There are some interesting cultural differences. In many parts of Europe, doing something fun is important. In the US, owning is more important - preferably something bigger and better than your neighbors. I can't wait to see what the windsurf culture in Australia is like!

I think this is pretty accurate & big reason why we may view things differently.

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mkseven said..
Hate to say in Australia I just don't see windsurfing surviving the millenials, some things are just dinosaurs & not meant to survive. Promoting racing for kids... great for those that are doing it but sailing in Brisbane it's very rare seeing any of the RQ folk sailing any other spot or doing anything other than course race training.

I & im sure many others here did alot of competitive sport growing up & when was the last time you jumped in a pool to swim for fun, ran some laps, kicked a footy etc (yes many probably have done something like that but the people here are the exception, we're already getting off our a$$ & doing some activity). In short just because you are pushing kids to some competitive thing does not translate to long termers.

Windsurfing is not accessible, expensive, not social while you are doing it, rarely coached & takes a fair chunk of self assessment, tenacity & continual commitment to maintain a reasonsble level let alone improve.

Aiming windsurfing at kids & hoping that is the future is worthwhile for them but won't grow the sport, same happens to them as happened to me & all the guys & girls I windsurfed with as a teen... life happens. Sure continue with the development programs & fun focused school holiday windsurf camps for kids would be great as is done with many other sports. But windsurfing should be focusing promotion on the post life happens semi disposible income late 20's/30's people, they might stick with it, they can maybe afford to buy new gear which can in time filter down to new comers & young folk.

Gear wise well many of us are not really contributing to the sport, how many contributors to this thread bought a new board this year. & many windsurfers are a technically minded bunch who like to use what is on the cutting edge of the sport, not great for handing down. It's almost like freeride is a dirty word when it's what the majority actually do just baffing.

There sometimes seems to be a latent hostility where everyone loves to be pigeon holed into do you wavesail, freestyle, freeride, bump n jump, slalom, gps, raceboard, foil, formula, techno wally, windsup etc etc etc & the groups don't mix, what a segregated sport, how can it possibly focus on a direction... which path is the future. Instead the manufacturers just want to keep bringing the next thing like foils or windsurfer xyz's & i can't have a go at friendly course racing with my not one design trademarked windsup? well your loss.

Windsurfing is lucky to a passionate group of stalwarts to keep it going but are we the best people to evaluate the health of the sport? Look sideways to the rise & rise & demise (locally) of kiting. Sure things that fly in the air capture our inner child wonder but is that what prompted it's success? On a visual & ability scale it isn't much different, maybe a little more with them being bigger, more colourful & ridden closer to shore. It has the x factor of wakeboarding, better accessibility than windsurfing & not having to travel to a crowded surf break.

But as a casual observer it has 2 things windsurfing does not have, it is inherently social & many smiles, whereas windsurfing has the intense concentration race face thing going on (& yeah im very guilty of this myself). How much cooler did advertisements containing Josh Stones or Brian Talmas big beaming grins look? To the public comparing windsurfing to kiting one looks fun, the other looks... hard.

What has brought about the demise of kiting around here? It was targeted at the young, again life got in the way. It also requires alot of commitment & effort to progress to the next level. When it first hit I seem to recall it was quite a bit cheaper than windsurfing, now it is expensive. & around here after all that it's been left with a small group of regulars who are similar age to the windsurfers.

& cost affecting windsurfing... new boards approaching $4000 that's crazy, inflation of $100 per year in the last 15 years, & even back then when a new f2 or mistral cost $2400 those brands suffered bigtime in sales from local customs & cheap plastic or glass boards. But that's what happens when you have a monopoly with the cobra situation. I'm lucky enough to have a sh**load of gear but no way would i have even a quarter of it at full rrp, if i was a new comer & saw the prices even with my financial situation I would never have taken up windsurfing.

We shouldn't forget what it's like to be a potential new comer to the sport. Supping took off because it's easy & looks easy. Wally's & windsups look easy. Gps'ers zipping past, people doing loops, riding big waves or doing unfathomable freestyle moves is about as relevant to their minds as us looking at say hang gliding, yeah it looks cool but there is just so much going on for a mere mortal.

I got to experience the whole considering getting into the sport viewpoint last year with kiting, I wouldn't mind giving it a go, it has it's appeal to certain conditions & to me is as relevant as say adding a bump n jump setup to your quiver. But I tend to buy new stuff when I can, ballpark figures kite $2-2500, twin tip board with straps & fins $1000ish, bar/lines/harness $1000ish, lessons $500+. $5000 to jump into a new sport & only have one setup yeah nah, & people looking at getting into windsurfing would be thinking the exact same thing.

I was looking forward to see the impact the new wally's might have had on the sport purely on the initial rumours regarding pricing structure. $2000 seemed a reasonable price point for something that is easy to use, LOOKS easy to use, versatile, useable in a wide range of conditions & doesnt weigh a tonne (but is too long!). Final pricing though was different when really to be perfectly aimed at people looking at getting into the sport sub $2000 full turn key including paddle, uphaul, harness & carry bag should have been their goal.

Probably some retailers would read that & go hah you're dreaming but sometimes you have to sacrifice a little to expand your market, look at the industry that has developed from cheap kayaks becoming available. & why aim a discount at existing racers when all they had to do to make it appeal to them is make it perform better, just another example of how backwards this sport has things sometimes.

There is obviously some appeal for people still there, over summer it's pretty much daily where someone will approach one of us at my local beach & start asking questions but it's so disheartening when it comes to how much then oh & they walk away.

All things considered it's destined to be a dinosaur, there is just too many adverse internal & external forces affecting it but i'm going to keep on loving it while it's around & while I can

Agree with allot of this MK7...

Roo, you are right about WIndsurfing in the Gorge. We have pretty sweet set-up. But ... the part about Americans in general? Not hardly.

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mkseven said..
There is obviously some appeal for people still there, over summer it's pretty much daily where someone will approach one of us at my local beach & start asking questions but it's so disheartening when it comes to how much then oh & they walk away.

A local shop owner who has a decent-sized teaching operation said this used to be a big deal until a few years ago. But in the last 2-3 years, many parents are happy to pay $2500 for a beginner setup just to get their kids away from the little screens for a while.

There also have been a few instances where windsurfers were quick to provide free gear to others in need (with health issues or kids). That's alway nice to see, although perhaps these are exceptions.

For many of the "typical" windsurfers (kids grown or in their teens so they have time & money for gear), the big issue that keeps them from buying new gear is that they don't want to spend a lot of money on something unknown. When they get a chance to test new gear, they are often quite happy to spend a few grand on new boards and sails. We've made having demo gear a priority for our local events, but were fortunate enough to have support from shops and manufacturers. A couple of energetic guys on the right job can make a huge difference!

Mk7, that's a great post and I agree with a lot of what you say. I'm more upbeat about the sport's future in Australia, though.

As far as the price for the LT goes, you could be being a bit harsh. For a start, I'm fairly sure that most of the existing class members don't particularly want a faster board - we'd be sailing slalom, Formula or Raceboard if speed was what got us excited. Yes, the new board is easier for heavier sailors or less expert ones, and lighter to carry.

But the existing class members were (a) the loyal customers who had been supporting the class for years and who deserved recognition for doing that (b) the people who already had a similar product, and who were going to have their existing board superseded.

If the existing class members didn't get a deal, they would have lost out - many of them would no longer be competitive and their years of support for the class would have been ignored while the people who sat on the sidelines were rewarded with a deal. If you treat loyal members and customers like that you're not going to have their loyalty for very long. And the existing class structure in Italy and Australia was apparently pretty important in the project.

I'm really not sure how much profit anyone is making from the LT. I know that here, at least, it wasn't initially expected to make money. I'm not sure that the local industry is big and strong enough to lose money. I do know that the 4.5s we had were being made at zero labour cost because Neil from Barracouta Sails was supporting the sport by using the apprentices he was teaching at TAFE to make them and often using spare fabric. They still cost, if I recall correctly, $250 about eight years ago. Even with batch production in China your labour costs will still be above zero and you have to pay factory overheads, warehouse costs, transport to Australia, get them off the wharf, store them again, etc. Adding a centreboard increases cost significantly too, but without (and the extra length) it the boards don't go upwind in anything like the same way.

I've said it before, but it's only the industry that can change the uptake of sail boarding at a grass roots level.

The barrier is cost. The product needs to be something similar to the LT or a windSUP with a centreboard but it needs to be available as a full kit with a rig for less than $1k to make it appealing to families. To compete with a bunch of boogie boards or a few rotomolded kayaks or even the cheap SUP's they can buy from Anaconda as the family watersport toy of choice, the price needs to fall (but so can materials quality too, there's no point selling a family high-tech materials that they get no benefit from)

All of the big manufacturers right now are not motivated to develop grass roots windsurfing because they have diversified into other products that make profit (high end windsurfing, SUP, kites etc). The role of a business is to generate profit, so if you can make profit by selling another product because the market demands it, then there is minimal motivation to develop something that might be financially risky, it's a basic commercial decision. The best indication that this is the case is the new LT. The design development was done by a third party, the production was sorted out and developed by that third party and a reasonably cheap (by windsurfing standards) price point obtained. All of this was done at no commercial risk to the big manufacturers. Now they are only too happy to put their sticker on one and sell it, the hard work is done.

All that is left is to engineer a "dumbed down" version to mass produce at a very competitive price and get them out there and get everyone hooked on windsurfing.

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Chris 249 said..
Mk7, that's a great post and I agree with a lot of what you say. I'm more upbeat about the sport's future in Australia, though.

As far as the price for the LT goes, you could be being a bit harsh. For a start, I'm fairly sure that most of the existing class members don't particularly want a faster board - we'd be sailing slalom, Formula or Raceboard if speed was what got us excited. Yes, the new board is easier for heavier sailors or less expert ones, and lighter to carry.

But the existing class members were (a) the loyal customers who had been supporting the class for years and who deserved recognition for doing that (b) the people who already had a similar product, and who were going to have their existing board superseded.

If the existing class members didn't get a deal, they would have lost out - many of them would no longer be competitive and their years of support for the class would have been ignored while the people who sat on the sidelines were rewarded with a deal. If you treat loyal members and customers like that you're not going to have their loyalty for very long. And the existing class structure in Italy and Australia was apparently pretty important in the project.

I'm really not sure how much profit anyone is making from the LT. I know that here, at least, it wasn't initially expected to make money. I'm not sure that the local industry is big and strong enough to lose money. I do know that the 4.5s we had were being made at zero labour cost because Neil from Barracouta Sails was supporting the sport by using the apprentices he was teaching at TAFE to make them and often using spare fabric. They still cost, if I recall correctly, $250 about eight years ago. Even with batch production in China your labour costs will still be above zero and you have to pay factory overheads, warehouse costs, transport to Australia, get them off the wharf, store them again, etc. Adding a centreboard increases cost significantly too, but without (and the extra length) it the boards don't go upwind in anything like the same way.

The thing about the LT here in US is there is NO established class or clubs to sell into. We are essentially starting from scratch. There may be a few old timers out there who will buy one for nostalgia but that won't carry the market. It has to sell on it's own merit, so yes cost & simplicity as well as curb appeal have to be the driver. I don't think you need to go to the level of Big box store SUP's or cheapest rotomolded Kayak, but certainly less than is currently available. To me the big advantage of the Windsurfer LT is the economies of scale inherent in the business model. With one mold & one construction process you should save a TON of overhead as well as development costs. Right now in the US it is still to expensive IMO. You can buy a Kona or a Bic or Starboard WindSUP for less. Retail is currently $1,500-1,300 USD for board only. Price needs to come down in the $700-800 range then you can add a rig for around $600-800 which would get you into the sport for around $1,500.

I absolutely agree gorgesailor, it's the right product that needs to be re-engineered into a cheaper construction to compete with other products available to families. There's still a place for the "race" product, but there needs to be a "family" product that's not as good as the "race" product.

We always here the industry needs to fix it, or manufacturer's need to make something different or we need to get a cheaper price or a range of other different excuse's that always put the onus on someone else to be responsible for the future of our sport.

Where people make efforts to grow windsurfing, windsurfing grows. Much like AFL and Soccer and Netball and every other sport, they all rely on dedicated enthusiastic people to share it with the next generation.

Fair call about loyalty & costs associated with wally class but if they really wanted to grow why didn't they offer first round of orders to existing class members & to entice new members at the same price for a time offer same price for everyone else then increase to normal when production slows, sorry but it's business... loyalty??? You either want to grow or not.

Cammd valid point but those sports aren't heavily gear dependant or driven by manufacturers, I can't think of too many other sports that have the same gear cycle/push as windsurfing, yeah there is plenty that appeal to our vanity such that we need to have that new season carbon road bike or cricket bat but there are others such as tennis that show they do just fine by keeping their top end racquets unchanged for several seasons. Actually I can think of another sport... Sup racing, who is that driven by & how is that industry going after 10 short years.

I really feel for the retailers in windsurfing, they carry the risk, they have to discount to move stock, they are not the ones setting the absurd rrp's for several hundred dollars worth of foam, carbon & graphics. Even then we are being fooled for every cent as we have carbon content being reduced, but carbon is expensive they cry, labour is expensive they cry, well carbon on their purchasing level ain't that expensive & a comparable amount of man hours goes into a $450 carbon fin as goes into that $4000 cobra bit of foam.

Windsurfing's past success of a board in every other garage didn't happen by having nations of action heroes or adrenaline junkies, it happened by having affordable appeal. I will hazard that the majority of us here learnt on & somewhat happily dragged to the water a heavy, relatively cheap bit of plastic, annoying splintery fibreglass mast & dodgy old wobbly boom. Super cheap materials like plastic no longer have to be the answer as China (& locally) proved it can pump out cheap lightweight sups, production techniques & materials have evolved for the better. With increased access to the sport there is potential for more people to then properly invest in moving to the next level.

& it ain't pessimism, just a reality check for the industry, it has a while yet left on the current wave. It is the industry who can make the choices to turn it around, not the users, we aren't the ones dependant on making a living from it. Windsurfing is in a great position where it's not dependant on spectators or gambling as so many other struggling sports are. I really do hope it survives but it just seems like the oligarchy are pillaging the sport & to hell with the future after they're gone.

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cammd said..
We always here the industry needs to fix it, or manufacturer's need to make something different or we need to get a cheaper price or a range of other different excuse's that always put the onus on someone else to be responsible for the future of our sport.

Where people make efforts to grow windsurfing, windsurfing grows. Much like AFL and Soccer and Netball and every other sport, they all rely on dedicated enthusiastic people to share it with the next generation.

Such a healthy and proactive attitude. Thumbs up.

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cammd said..
We always here the industry needs to fix it, or manufacturer's need to make something different or we need to get a cheaper price or a range of other different excuse's that always put the onus on someone else to be responsible for the future of our sport.

Where people make efforts to grow windsurfing, windsurfing grows. Much like AFL and Soccer and Netball and every other sport, they all rely on dedicated enthusiastic people to share it with the next generation.

This is true as well. On the Grass roots level I would normally never encourage a prospective Windsurfer to buy new gear. I could set someone up on a used rig for less than 1/2 current retail. Now if the Windsurfer LT was in that $1,200-1,500 range complete, I might advise them to get that because it is more than a beginner board, it is a SUP, a lightwind cruising board, & has a One design race class. . Would not really want to see a complete Windsurfer LT go for $600, that is unrealistic & likely anything that cheap would not be worth it.

.......from the shop floor, my windsurfing customers have been coming back in droves for the last decade bringing their sons and daughters and buying windsurfing SUP's and inflatable Irigs, performance gear, revamping old raceboards, reliving their youth and bringing their new wives and girlfriends/ boyfriends, not sure about this decline you are all talking about hell the JP 135 foil board is the biggest selling single model this summer that I have had since the eighties.....cheers, long live the windsurfing renaissance