An 80KG rider just reported a banger prone setup with the 880: 140 dart, no shim, 795 mast with 1 degree rear based plate shim, with 50 fuse. Reported great pump and turning.

I just tried the 880, 180Red, 795, 50 fuse yesterday prone with the 55L ML and straight off the bat I got my longest time on foil to date. Probably my second prone session in 6 months. After two lung busting rides, I grabbed my 5M wing and caught the rising sea breeze. ML for the win!

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eppo said..
I'd say try it then without a shim. I use both a red and a blue but not in marginal conditions. I hate light wind winging rather do something else like watch grass grow. Speed tail is higher aspect needs some speed over it to work i suppose.

She did, and got going this time in pretty similar light wind. She reported a lot of front foot pressure when picking up speed, so may use a shim in non-marginal conditions in the future. She also reported the by far best wave/chop rides at our local spot, partly due to much better pump & glide. Take off was a bit harder than with a v-tail, although water state also was different (more chaotic).

Many sessions here turn into light wind sessions at some point, even if forecast and local knowledge predict good wind all afternoon. Yesterday was a typical example, with meter readings dropping from 18 to 12 over a couple of hours. Forecast had the wind steady, and the typical thing would have been for the wind to pick up as it cooled off in the later afternoon. The fun winging is about half a mile to a mile outside / upwind. Getting back when the wind drops too far takes about 20 minutes sitting on a floaty board, and 45 minutes paddling on a sinker. Half of the time, the wind just drops for half an hour and then comes back up, so going back to the launch can be an exercise in frustration tolerance. Windfoiling on a big board often makes more sense, since getting back when the wind drops out is a lot easier and faster.

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boardsurfr said..

eppo said..
I'd say try it then without a shim. I use both a red and a blue but not in marginal conditions. I hate light wind winging rather do something else like watch grass grow. Speed tail is higher aspect needs some speed over it to work i suppose.

She did, and got going this time in pretty similar light wind. She reported a lot of front foot pressure when picking up speed, so may use a shim in non-marginal conditions in the future. She also reported the by far best wave/chop rides at our local spot, partly due to much better pump & glide. Take off was a bit harder than with a v-tail, although water state also was different (more chaotic).

Many sessions here turn into light wind sessions at some point, even if forecast and local knowledge predict good wind all afternoon. Yesterday was a typical example, with meter readings dropping from 18 to 12 over a couple of hours. Forecast had the wind steady, and the typical thing would have been for the wind to pick up as it cooled off in the later afternoon. The fun winging is about half a mile to a mile outside / upwind. Getting back when the wind drops too far takes about 20 minutes sitting on a floaty board, and 45 minutes paddling on a sinker. Half of the time, the wind just drops for half an hour and then comes back up, so going back to the launch can be an exercise in frustration tolerance. Windfoiling on a big board often makes more sense, since getting back when the wind drops out is a lot easier and faster.

Yeh well if light wind is what you get then that's what you get. Maybe at least a blue then to wash some of that front foot pressure. Honestly though from the erratic light wind sessions we do get here i'd say the tail / foil whilst important - the critical aspect of your gear is the board choice. Makes the biggest difference.

Update on the M2O training/testing/deciding on gear... Was out with the Ezzy 5.5, HA580, 180 tail (red shim) practicing broad reach dropping into and overtaking ocean swell today. Hit peak speeds around 36-39kmh. Knowing that is my upper end potential, I think the 580 should be plenty fast for the race. I decided to bite the bullet and pick up another 140, so that might help drive up the speed another click or two.
I have to say, downwind riding is tapping into a different set of muscles than I typically use winging. My regular spot is all about an upwind leg followed by flagged wave ride. Broad reach with swell for 36 miles is going to take some stamina.

Great info in this thread - just read through all of it.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is: what if you really liked the 725? I'm reading many people love the new HA's because they're easier to ride, more pitch stable, etc. But what if you'd put in the time to refine your brain control system feedback loops and muscle memory and really mastered the old HA's, especially the 725? (the 925 is much easier to ride imo).

Fwiw, I'm 84kg, still on the old 85cm mast, but I absolutely love the 725 in anything stronger than 18kts and in waves bigger than waist high. The upwind angles and top speed are phenomenal on that thing.

So as I'm reading about the new HA's, what would someone like me gain from them? Just ease of use? I'm considering a larger one, the 980 or 1080, primarily for prone foiling as I'm still working on connecting waves. But I would also consider it as my super light wind foil for winging.

Will try and demo them to see what the craze is all about. But just curious to hear thoughts from people who really liked and mastered the 725, as it seems many found it too difficult to ride and therefore didn't really like it that much.

I'm 80 kgs and loved the 725 prone ,it's so fast and I could connect waves on it no probs as long as I had speed on the exit.It's also super fast and efficient which is great for some of my tow spots which have fat sections that you need efficiency and glide to get through on and also for fast sections on beach breaks it's gold.I'm riding the 680 atm and it turns and pumps easier than the 725 but it's not as fast or as efficient as the 725.I'm keeping the 725 for now until I decide if the 680 will be a better allround wing. I should really get a MA 800-625 for towing for the speed and turning.

My wife who loved the 725 and now switched to the 680 (for winging). While the areas are similar, this is quite misleading. On the 680, she gets going in a few knots less wind than on the 725. Pumping is a lot better, which is obvious even to the casual observer. Her flagged rides in wind swell are a lot longer on the 680, since it's easy to link up waves - much easier than on the 725 and the 1250. The 725 was her high wind foil, used mostly in 18+ knots. The 680 is currently her one-wing quiver, used in 10+ knots (and possibly lower if she'd switch to a larger hand wing, which she rarely does). One thing she reports is that the 725 had a tendency to drop suddenly when loosing too much speed, which the 680 does not at all. That may contribute to the 680 being better to pump.

It's possible that she'll end up adding a 580 for the (rare) very windy days, since the 680 develops a lot of lift when it gets faster. We'll have to wait for a few of these days to tune mast position and shims, though, first.

725/925/1125 past user. Not only more pitch stable but yaw as well especially in the 925/1125 in turbulent waters. Overall far more predictable which means you can trust its output more and in my mind push it harder. Doesn't have the initial acceleration and overall effortless glide but that is made up easily with its reliable pump and sensible stall speed.

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boardsurfr said..
My wife who loved the 725 and now switched to the 680 (for winging). While the areas are similar, this is quite misleading. On the 680, she gets going in a few knots less wind than on the 725. Pumping is a lot better, which is obvious even to the casual observer. Her flagged rides in wind swell are a lot longer on the 680, since it's easy to link up waves - much easier than on the 725 and the 1250. The 725 was her high wind foil, used mostly in 18+ knots. The 680 is currently her one-wing quiver, used in 10+ knots (and possibly lower if she'd switch to a larger hand wing, which she rarely does). One thing she reports is that the 725 had a tendency to drop suddenly when loosing too much speed, which the 680 does not at all. That may contribute to the 680 being better to pump.

It's possible that she'll end up adding a 580 for the (rare) very windy days, since the 680 develops a lot of lift when it gets faster. We'll have to wait for a few of these days to tune mast position and shims, though, first.

This sums up my experience very well.

(I am an ex 925/800/1000 user, now mostly on a 680. I use it in anything from about 12 knots with the 5.3 XPS and a mid-length board.)

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eppo said..
725/925/1125 past user. Not only more pitch stable but yaw as well especially in the 925/1125 in turbulent waters. Overall far more predictable which means you can trust its output more and in my mind push it harder. Doesn't have the initial acceleration and overall effortless glide but that is made up easily with its reliable pump and sensible stall speed.

Totally agree, at 90kg I use 780 and 580 as my main foils and ma800 when the surf is pumping. Used to ride 725 and 925.haven't used them since the new HAs

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greg87foil said..
Will try and demo them to see what the craze is all about. But just curious to hear thoughts from people who really liked and mastered the 725, as it seems many found it too difficult to ride and therefore didn't really like it that much.

Prior to picking up the 580 and 680 my main foil was the 725 with the 525 being my bigger wave, higher wind foil. I'm 80kg riding a 58L FG board. After a good amount of time on the 580 and 680, I find the speed on both is significantly better when using a red shim. With the 180 tail and red shim, my peak speeds are basically the same as the 725 on the 580 and maybe 1-3km off with the 680. The 680 doesn't have quite the acceleration of the 725, but the 580 certainly does.

That said, both the 580 and 680 have such a ridiculously low stall speed (once on foil) and the turning is much more similar to the MA800 (you can turn super hard on a wave face without worrying about breaching).

To me, if you're riding surf, the newer HA are worth the upgrade. If you're mostly fast water blasting, they are easier to ride, but probably have less of an overall ROI in those conditions.

Since Eppo was so gracious about helping me get some feedback on foil selection for the Molokai crossing, I wanted to post a brief update here.

After more time down winding and learning more about the unique challenges of the course, I'm leaning more and more toward using the HA680 with a 180 tail (red shim). Compared to the 580, my peak speeds are only 1-2 knots slower, but what is gained in control and ability to pump and get on foil quickly is massive. I actually think with more practice (we're shooting for weekly downwinders on south shore of Oahu), I might even be able to push peak speeds from my current 18 knots up closer to 20 knots. Based on Garmin mapping, the course is likely going to be between 40 to 45 miles (64 to 72km). Conditions could be anywhere from 10 to 20 knots with small ocean swell to 25+ knots with 3-5 meter swell. Typically, July will bring us something in-between these two extremes. If race day brings all out chaos (lots of wind and waves), I'll be prepared to step down to the 580, but for now, I'm logging time on the 680 and learning how to handle it where I would normally switch to the 580. My goals for the race are to put in my best performance and finish. Wherever that lands me in the mix of things is all good. I'll be toe side for almost the entire distance so I'm bracing for that as well, lol.

Looking forward to being a part of this event.

Best of luck man just awesome you are in such an awesome race. You gonna have a blast.

20.5 knots on 680 today. been learning a lot about the upper limits of that foil both in speed and what it can handle surf wise. If I could have only one foil, this would likely be the one.

I finally got to ride the HA880 today in some challenging conditions at Ka'a (15-25kt+ waist high chop). I'm 90kg, my usual set up is 1125ha, 85 mast, 60 fuz, 195 tail with red shim. I kept everything the same and just stuck the 880 on.

To be honest I'm not sure how to feel. It was remarkably unremarkable! I got in the water, grabbed some wind and off I went. Made my usual turns, caught some waves. Most of the time I forgot I was trying out a new foil. It was strange the 880HA and I were "friends" right off the bat. This is a totally different beast than the 1125HA which I call an "abusive relationship" because it usually is good but for no reason, out of the blue, it would try to kill me!

The only difference I noticed was that my front foot placement was up one screw hole. Overall it wasn't "life changing" it was just good. It didn't make me run to the store and buy one, but it also didn't make me not want one. I tried the MA's when they first came out, and it was a hard pass for me.

I'll have to try it again in calmer conditions to get a better read. Right now the best analogy I can come up with is that I've been with the hot crazy girl for so long that the equally hot but more mature and stable woman just feels strange. I don't not like it, but I'm also not rushing to date her.

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Goofcat said..
I finally got to ride the HA880 today in some challenging conditions at Ka'a (15-25kt+ waist high chop). I'm 90kg, my usual set up is 1125ha, 85 mast, 60 fuz, 195 tail with red shim. I kept everything the same and just stuck the 880 on.

To be honest I'm not sure how to feel. It was remarkably unremarkable! I got in the water, grabbed some wind and off I went. Made my usual turns, caught some waves. Most of the time I forgot I was trying out a new foil. It was strange the 880HA and I were "friends" right off the bat. This is a totally different beast than the 1125HA which I call an "abusive relationship" because it usually is good but for no reason, out of the blue, it would try to kill me!

The only difference I noticed was that my front foot placement was up one screw hole. Overall it wasn't "life changing" it was just good. It didn't make me run to the store and buy one, but it also didn't make me not want one. I tried the MA's when they first came out, and it was a hard pass for me.

I'll have to try it again in calmer conditions to get a better read. Right now the best analogy I can come up with is that I've been with the hot crazy girl for so long that the equally hot but more mature and stable woman just feels strange. I don't not like it, but I'm also not rushing to date her.

Yeh it's a bit like that. It's not dynamic (or some would say bipolar) like the old HA. I strongly recommended you get hold of a 180 - try first with a red shim - then a blue and a red. Will give you similar speed to the 195 without its pitch issues.

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Goofcat said..
I finally got to ride the HA880 today in some challenging conditions at Ka'a (15-25kt+ waist high chop). I'm 90kg, my usual set up is 1125ha, 85 mast, 60 fuz, 195 tail with red shim. I kept everything the same and just stuck the 880 on.

To be honest I'm not sure how to feel. It was remarkably unremarkable! I got in the water, grabbed some wind and off I went. Made my usual turns, caught some waves. Most of the time I forgot I was trying out a new foil. It was strange the 880HA and I were "friends" right off the bat. This is a totally different beast than the 1125HA which I call an "abusive relationship" because it usually is good but for no reason, out of the blue, it would try to kill me!

The only difference I noticed was that my front foot placement was up one screw hole. Overall it wasn't "life changing" it was just good. It didn't make me run to the store and buy one, but it also didn't make me not want one. I tried the MA's when they first came out, and it was a hard pass for me.

I'll have to try it again in calmer conditions to get a better read. Right now the best analogy I can come up with is that I've been with the hot crazy girl for so long that the equally hot but more mature and stable woman just feels strange. I don't not like it, but I'm also not rushing to date her.

Hilarious analogy and kinda true. I like to go with the 180 or 140 stab and shorter fuse to spice things up.

Thanks for the suggestions on the tails to try. Guess I got to go on another date.

Heading to Molokai! Forecasts have been all over the place but hopefully decent wind.

Just looking at the spec on the Armie HA. If using in waves whether wing or prone does the wingspan not feel cumbersome? I've been using Ar of around 8 for a good while and couldn't imagine larger wingspans being great to carve some aggressive lines? I bought and sold a 10ar foil a year ago as it felt like a barge on the wave. Interested to hear thoughts.

depends on size. 980 and below are pretty good carvers especially if you use a smaller tail. above this - yeh they get a bit "spanny" we have found. the 680 is a sick carving foil and packs a lot of lift and glide punch for its size. 780 rolls really well in medium stuff. The 880 is starting to get a handful in really big stuff - and say a 140 dart is needed. 980 makes a really good DW Sup paddle size and not bad as a sup surf foil on smaller stuff but yeh is getting a tad too big to wing. Not sure on the 580 as i've never tried one but i imagine it's pretty damn good. So yeh the new HS lines in all the brands really are not what you'd imagine.

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eppo said..
depends on size. 980 and below are pretty good carvers especially if you use a smaller tail. above this - yeh they get a bit "spanny" we have found. the 680 is a sick carving foil and packs a lot of lift and glide punch for its size. 780 rolls really well in medium stuff. The 880 is starting to get a handful in really big stuff - and say a 140 dart is needed. 980 makes a really good DW Sup paddle size and not bad as a sup surf foil on smaller stuff but yeh is getting a tad too big to wing. Not sure on the 580 as i've never tried one but i imagine it's pretty damn good. So yeh the new HS lines in all the brands really are not what you'd imagine.

correction new HA range above ..

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eppo said..
depends on size. 980 and below are pretty good carvers especially if you use a smaller tail. above this - yeh they get a bit "spanny" we have found. the 680 is a sick carving foil and packs a lot of lift and glide punch for its size. 780 rolls really well in medium stuff. The 880 is starting to get a handful in really big stuff - and say a 140 dart is needed. 980 makes a really good DW Sup paddle size and not bad as a sup surf foil on smaller stuff but yeh is getting a tad too big to wing. Not sure on the 580 as i've never tried one but i imagine it's pretty damn good. So yeh the new HS lines in all the brands really are not what you'd imagine.

Thanks. So in essence although they have the bigger wingspans you perhaps don't feel it like the previous versions of HA wings? As you say smaller tails loosen it up.

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IanInca said..

eppo said..
depends on size. 980 and below are pretty good carvers especially if you use a smaller tail. above this - yeh they get a bit "spanny" we have found. the 680 is a sick carving foil and packs a lot of lift and glide punch for its size. 780 rolls really well in medium stuff. The 880 is starting to get a handful in really big stuff - and say a 140 dart is needed. 980 makes a really good DW Sup paddle size and not bad as a sup surf foil on smaller stuff but yeh is getting a tad too big to wing. Not sure on the 580 as i've never tried one but i imagine it's pretty damn good. So yeh the new HS lines in all the brands really are not what you'd imagine.

Thanks. So in essence although they have the bigger wingspans you perhaps don't feel it like the previous versions of HA wings? As you say smaller tails loosen it up.

nope. In fact i'm not sure why they are even called them the HA version 2, they should have been called a completely different line. The are nothing like the old Ha and more in line with the new rider friendly HA foils from other brands.

Yeah, the new Armstrong HAs are so friendly, I think people might think something completely different looking is under their feet if they didn't know what they were riding. 1080 for me at 90 kg is as big as I like to SUP foil but I don't wing it much. It still turns quite well and has good speed. The 880 and 680 are fantastic for carving. I've read from some people that the 880 size is a little "meh" but I find it to be an incredible all around foil. 880 is similar to the MA1225 in the way it goes early, is quick, turns really well and is still fun to surf and wing. Dart tail (blue shim) and surf 205 with red shim work great for me. You can use small tails on these foils and not feel under-gunned since the front foils are very stable. In fact it might be a disservice to ride anything bigger than the 205 if you want to get the performance out of these foils. At the same time, one could argue an entry level winger could likely learn on these foils with a bigger tail and then grow into the performance later with a smaller tail.

great points above Windoc agree with all you said for what for what it's worth.

great points above Windoc agree with all you said for what for what it's worth.

How did your race go Oahu? Curious what foil set you ended up on.

Currently using 925 for surfing. My dad uses the 880, and I can see the difference. Was thinking of maybe buying another 880 or maybe the 780. I weigh 69kg, and really dont know if its best for me to have the 880 or 780. Any tips? Does the 880 has that much of a difference in pumping compared to 780? Some help plsss

Yeh concur with the above. I've been on every size except the 580. 780 is akin to the 925. 880 akin to the 1225HA/1225mA - just a ton more turning ability. Less span is always good.

There are guys DW paddling the 680 and now even using the 580. Guys proning the 580/680 - but these crew are better than the average bear and or lighter riders.

So two sizes down at average weight, probs one size down for heavier crew if just a normal skilled rider like most of us.

But then there is the tail / shim combination which makes a huge difference and also can give you access to a size above and below whatever front wing you are on performance wise given conditions.

It's a really user friendly / versatile front foil (can use across all the foiling disciplines) that behaves across the speed spectrum and yet allows also one to push for more advanced riding.

It's kind of in that goldilocks area - other brands i have used (most of them) defintely can out shine it given certain disciplines - but they lack applicability in others. This front foil kind of covers everything at a level that is adequate for 95 percent of riders.