Wondering if anyone knows of a bio based acetone available in australia.

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Gestalt said..
an update on cores for the laminates looking like 2 options.

1. paulownia
locally sourced and milled in 4mm thick strips.

2. balsa end grain
available in thinner veneers than paulownia. a mix of local and imported balsa fabricated in nsw.

Something for the future and not available in australia currently is an rPET foam foil. 3mm thick high density flexible foam.
made from 100% recycled plastic. the company also does rPET foam board products that would suit vac bagging that are currently available in australia.

I have been following your thread and began to think about graphene. It is relatively new and stronger than carbon. A liitle bit of research online and I came across a surfboard builder who is experimenting with this stuff. Apparently the life of a short board is relatively short. The strength and lightness of graphene allow for some radical new ideas in board construction. The guy is also 'environmental' however I don't know if graphene is non-toxic or not. Here is a link if you are curious ... new.engineering.com/story/engineering-a-better-surfboard

thx mark.

looks like he is working towards 3d printing boards. thats pretty cool.
I spoke with Dick van straalen on the gold coast a few years ago. he was of the opinion surfboards needed to be made to last longer as that one thing would help the environment

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Gestalt said..
thx mark.

looks like he is working towards 3d printing boards. thats pretty cool.
I spoke with Dick van straalen on the gold coast a few years ago. he was of the opinion surfboards needed to be made to last longer as that one thing would help the environment

I read that he was replacing the centre stringer with a stronger and lighter configuration. That provided interesting possibilities for design and the other types of materials being used. Anyway, I didn't want to distract you from your project. Good luck with the build.

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MarkSSC said..

Gestalt said..
an update on cores for the laminates looking like 2 options.

1. paulownia
locally sourced and milled in 4mm thick strips.

2. balsa end grain
available in thinner veneers than paulownia. a mix of local and imported balsa fabricated in nsw.

Something for the future and not available in australia currently is an rPET foam foil. 3mm thick high density flexible foam.
made from 100% recycled plastic. the company also does rPET foam board products that would suit vac bagging that are currently available in australia.

I have been following your thread and began to think about graphene. It is relatively new and stronger than carbon. A liitle bit of research online and I came across a surfboard builder who is experimenting with this stuff. Apparently the life of a short board is relatively short. The strength and lightness of graphene allow for some radical new ideas in board construction. The guy is also 'environmental' however I don't know if graphene is non-toxic or not. Here is a link if you are curious ... new.engineering.com/story/engineering-a-better-surfboard

Didn't see anything about graphene in the link? ... interesting construction though.

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gorgesailor said..

MarkSSC said..

Gestalt said..
an update on cores for the laminates looking like 2 options.

1. paulownia
locally sourced and milled in 4mm thick strips.

2. balsa end grain
available in thinner veneers than paulownia. a mix of local and imported balsa fabricated in nsw.

Something for the future and not available in australia currently is an rPET foam foil. 3mm thick high density flexible foam.
made from 100% recycled plastic. the company also does rPET foam board products that would suit vac bagging that are currently available in australia.

I have been following your thread and began to think about graphene. It is relatively new and stronger than carbon. A liitle bit of research online and I came across a surfboard builder who is experimenting with this stuff. Apparently the life of a short board is relatively short. The strength and lightness of graphene allow for some radical new ideas in board construction. The guy is also 'environmental' however I don't know if graphene is non-toxic or not. Here is a link if you are curious ... new.engineering.com/story/engineering-a-better-surfboard

Didn't see anything about graphene in the link? ... interesting construction though.

You are probably right though there is some inference to graphene being a 'game changer', providing more options in construction due to its properties. It also allows for more flexibility with weight distribution. The eco value is that they last longer and we have less stuff ending up in land fill. Maybe it has a place in boom or mast designs? I have graphene in my squash racquet and it is stronger than carbon or titanium reinforced products. It would be interesting to know how eco friendly it really is because I think it is just a relative of graphite.

In tennis racquet construction, "...It is shown that the main structural components in the racquet frame are high-strength carbon fibres in an epoxy resin matrix. It is also found that graphene-based nanoparticles are used to reinforce resin-rich regions in the shaft of the racquet at the discontinuity in the fibre tows, where the handle is joined to the racquet head. From a detailed analysis of the relative positions and intensities of the Raman G and 2D bands, it is demonstrated that the nanoparticles employed in the racquet are most probably graphite nanoplatelets which have been added to improve the mechanical properties of the resin-rich regions."

Here is another interesting article that I found ... link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10853-015-9705-6

Eco foam is in da house

Next board build can begin.

Resurecting this thread because the eco board finally started coming to life today. The board is for my 12yo son to replace his jp young gun fsw. This one is 2210x570 at around 82lt. We're calling it jump style. It has a lowish rocker with a 450 long flat, double concave to V starting at the nose. Wide nose to increase jump time. Rails are tucked into hard through the tail. It's a go anywhere do anything board.

Planned construction is basalt/pet cloth with end grain balsa and bio resin. Hoop patches in spots. Blank was cut from 100% recycled eps. All fixtures and fittings will be environmentally friendly and sourced locally where possible. All except the fin box and fin. No options there currently.

Build will take a while but will be faster than the last build.

In keeping with the goals. The eps block is 100% recycled locally. Cnc machine is local. Both less than 80km.

Lucky son .
Its good that you used recycled foam , but because its beautifully CNCd from a block and not wire cut , what happens to the two cubic metres of foam dust ?
Id love to know what happens to the cubic km of dust that a board factory produces , how they must process it . It can't just get dumped at the tip. Do they melt it into a small block as there making it , then dump it . Does it get recycled ? Recycling is usually more expensive than virgin materials and if that is the case with foam I doubt a third world country would do it . I think we would be horrified if we knew what that secretive Cobra factory do.
I did read somewhere that Starboard make pavers out of waste . Do they chop up all waste and melt it together ?

it seems if you want to polarize people use the word eco when talking board construction. in researching the build i've talked to some long time industry people and it's either a yes or a no with eco. most of the conversation centres around the surfing industry which has a poor record.

EPS - Not many people in Australia recycle EPS in Australia. So I'm lucky it's done within 80km of my house. everything else is sent overseas to be recycled or dumped. Not sure it would matter if the block i used was hot wire or cnc cut other than if i hot wired it at my house the electricity would be 100% renewable. the left overs would still be going to a recycle place and shipped overseas. in the case of the cnc the foam dust is vacuumed into bags onsite for processing. definitely more controlled than than i can do in my garage with a plane and hotwire. one of the reasons i use the cnc mill. Using 100% recycled local eps is a big tick and in my case significantly cheaper than buying virgin.

there is lots of information on the starboard site covering their green initiatives. they seem to be doing a pretty good job.
blue.star-board.com/projects/

according to their website, starboard mould their blanks so there is no eps waste.

Moulding blanks is a great idea especially if it's to finished size. That way you would get a tough skin also.
I believe Bic used to reverse engineer their boards. Put the lams in a mould then puff the foam on the inside .

Is it severne that do something similar with a concrete mould.

I think SPEED sailboards used a similar process in the 1980s. Somehow moulded the eps n then laid it up n back in the mould to cure.

Great stuff.
I would be interested to know what they do with the dust from the cnc cutting. A friend of mines son is working for a company that does a lot of blanc cutting. They are looking at different solutions of what to do with the foam dust.

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tarquin1 said..
Great stuff.
I would be interested to know what they do with the dust from the cnc cutting. A friend of mines son is working for a company that does a lot of blanc cutting. They are looking at different solutions of what to do with the foam dust.

I'm not 100% certain. I did ask once but can't remember the exact answer.
if your friends son is on the gold coast maybe try polystyrene solutions or nrg building systems.

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Gestalt said..
Resurecting this thread because the eco board finally started coming to life today. The board is for my 12yo son to replace his jp young gun fsw. This one is 2210x570 at around 82lt. We're calling it jump style. It has a lowish rocker with a 450 long flat, double concave to V starting at the nose. Wide nose to increase jump time. Rails are tucked into hard through the tail. It's a go anywhere do anything board.

Planned construction is basalt/pet cloth with end grain balsa and bio resin. Hoop patches in spots. Blank was cut from 100% recycled eps. All fixtures and fittings will be environmentally friendly and sourced locally where possible. All except the fin box and fin. No options there currently.

Build will take a while but will be faster than the last build.

In keeping with the goals. The eps block is 100% recycled locally. Cnc machine is local. Both less than 80km.

Great project and big effort to be as eco as possible with recycled foam and choice of materials
What fin box? US, Power box or Tuttle?
The Tuttle box is easy to make with carbon and high density foam but you need a mould.
In a board factory an aluminum machined mould, I guess the cost of cnc is too high unless your making a lot more boards in the future?

If its ECO its gotta be salvaged from another board?

the fin box choice is one of those compromise things so will probably run with US box.

my first choice would be the carbon slot box from moo custom but i can't use carbon and it's imported.
second choice would be plastic chinook slot box. but it's imported.
third choice is the winner. Australian made US box. - it would have the lowest footprint.

salvaged is a great idea tho, if i can find a broken board I'd do that for sure. will put a post in the QLD section.

footstrap plugs are from the same people that do the fin boxes so Australian made as well.

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tarquin1 said..
I tried to build an eco sup once. Flax,cork and bamboo. It all soaked up so much epoxy it weighed a ton and was a mess. I would really like to try the basalt but cant get it in France.
Bamboo soaks up an amazing amount of epoxy. You have to be careful.
You could try Grant Newby on the Gold Coast. He makes eco boards. Proper eco boards with no epoxy. He is always trying new stuff and would know where to get recycled eps blanks if they exist.

Has anyone tried to seal any of the bamboo/end grain balsa/flax/cork etc with something like Mirotone first. We use it a lot in pattern making. Never considered it before as part of a board build.

the end grain balsa that starboard use comes with the sealer applied. it's possible to buy in australia but i can't seem to find the sealer on it;s own for purchase.

some wooden surfboard builders and model plane makers thin out the epoxy with acetone or metho to get a light sealer coat. i'm not so sure how i feel about that with eps.

the end grain balsa i'm buying is made in australia from local and imported basa. the guy who sells it for surfboard building said to spray on a thin layer of epoxy then sand. so i'll probably do that.

because i am not using a vacuum bag i need the balsa to remain pliable.

on a side note. paulownia which is also used in boat/surfboard building does not soak up epoxy.

I still think the most eco friendly construction will be hollow, durable and repairable like the Patrick Airinside boards.

patrick says his airinside boards are eco friendly.. i just can't see how that's true. they are primarily made from carbon and resin. carbon has a footprint around 10 times that of fiberglass and he's not using bio resin.be interesting if patrick could do a version without carbon and get it to work.

not sure how to diy a fully hollow board without a mould. a friend is doing a semi hollow board based around an eps core but the core is not solid. It's more like a skeleton or lost formwork. the sandwich is a layup of glass and timber planks.

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peterowensbabs said..

tarquin1 said..
I tried to build an eco sup once. Flax,cork and bamboo. It all soaked up so much epoxy it weighed a ton and was a mess. I would really like to try the basalt but cant get it in France.
Bamboo soaks up an amazing amount of epoxy. You have to be careful.
You could try Grant Newby on the Gold Coast. He makes eco boards. Proper eco boards with no epoxy. He is always trying new stuff and would know where to get recycled eps blanks if they exist.

Has anyone tried to seal any of the bamboo/end grain balsa/flax/cork etc with something like Mirotone first. We use it a lot in pattern making. Never considered it before as part of a board build.

I use a product called G4. Its a polyurethane primer. Its a great product. I use it for sealing the inside of hollow boards too. I am not too keen on mixing epoxy and acetone.
What thickness balsa are you using Gesalt?

Balsa is 3mm thick.

Wonder if i should just glue the balsa with a qcel mix.

CNC seams and marks removed. Apex and tuck marked onto blank.

Hand shaping almost complete. Going to take a touch more volume out of the tail.

Update time.
i've ordered and received a bunch of stuff for the build. the hold up is the bio resin which is out of stock and won't be available till december. the result of covid so things on hold till the resin is available.

what i've got so far..

The eps core above is 100% recycled eps made locally. i've since found out surfboard grade 100% eps it's not available anymore from my local source. future boards will be part recycled.

The cloth is from sanded, and a mix of 4.5oz biax basalt, 4oz basalt and 3oz PET made in Australia from imported materials.
The 3mm end grain balsa being used as the sandwich core is made in NSW from local and imported balsa.

i've never used any of these cloths.
Planned layup is below. no vac bagging.

bottom
4.5ox biax + 4oz basalt + 3oz PET

deck
4.5oz biax + 4oz basalt
3mm balsa end grain
4.5oz biax + 3oz PET

nose
4.5oz biax

feet patches
QLD sourced 0.6mm hoop

rails
basalt rail tape

stringer from finbox to mast track
basalt rail tape

Also have a mix of 5 and 2 screw footstrap plugs made locally
A futures us box for the fin because they are designed to work with layup over the top. (no eco points there)
mast track is a chinook (no eco points there)

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Gestalt said..
Update time.
i've ordered and received a bunch of stuff for the build. the hold up is the bio resin which is out of stock and won't be available till december. the result of covid so things on hold till the resin is available.

what i've got so far..

The eps core above is 100% recycled eps made locally. i've since found out surfboard grade 100% eps it's not available anymore from my local source. future boards will be part recycled.

The cloth is from sanded, and a mix of 4.5oz biax basalt, 4oz basalt and 3oz PET made in Australia from imported materials.
The 3mm end grain balsa being used as the sandwich core is made in NSW from local and imported balsa.

i've never used any of these cloths.
Planned layup is below. no vac bagging.

bottom
4.5ox biax + 4oz basalt + 3oz PET

deck
4.5oz biax + 4oz basalt
3mm balsa end grain
4.5oz biax + 3oz PET

nose
4.5oz biax

feet patches
QLD sourced 0.6mm hoop

rails
basalt rail tape

stringer from finbox to mast track
basalt rail tape

Also have a mix of 5 and 2 screw footstrap plugs made locally
A futures us box for the fin because they are designed to work with layup over the top. (no eco points there)
mast track is a chinook (no eco points there)

Thanks for the info & good luck with the build!
I do wonder why not using a vac?

Here in Europe we have a fabric called "Lin Natural UD" to replace fiberglas. It should also improve the strength of carbon. Ever heard of it?

I think your layup is good as basalt is essentially like S-glass. However, I'd go an extra deck patch rear half, and an extra foot patch.

Stringer won't add strength so leave it out....?

Is the US box made by futures? if so, those tend to break with hi side loading they're only good for SUP and longboard. Get a Chinook if you can. Bonus is you can get one with vent incorporated.