have been looking at hemp cloth. there are some interesting colours available and hemp/silk cloth. can't find anything made in australia at this stage. still looking.

Why have a core, make it hollow

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Ben1973 said..
Why have a core, make it hollow

what were you thinking.

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Gestalt said..

KA360 said..

Gestalt said..

KA360 said..
Want to be truely eco friendly and recycle . Just buy a used 2015 -2018 Starboard Flare 81 ....., they are magic

do you know any cheap...ha!! wow it does look similar. bit thicker.

i've got the 2012 model in the bigger volume. sweat board.

But you care about the environment , right ? ............not price.

These things are not mutually exclusive

I think KA360 was making comment on the conspicuous consumptive element in windsurfing. We're all guilty of it. I'm guilty of replacing my perfectly good Bic Veloce 278 for the latest and greatest. I sold it cheaply to a bloke who we'd all guess would probably not give it a lot of use. They then go up in the rafters for a decade and then on to the tip.

How bad and outdated was the Veloce 278/288 any way? I can't remember it being a "slapper". I'd put that recollection down to my youth way back then?

windtechwindsurfing.com/products/cruise-missile

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Ian K said..

Gestalt said..

KA360 said..

Gestalt said..

KA360 said..
Want to be truely eco friendly and recycle . Just buy a used 2015 -2018 Starboard Flare 81 ....., they are magic

do you know any cheap...ha!! wow it does look similar. bit thicker.

i've got the 2012 model in the bigger volume. sweat board.

But you care about the environment , right ? ............not price.

These things are not mutually exclusive

I think KA360 was making comment on the conspicuous consumptive element in windsurfing. We're all guilty of it. I'm guilty of replacing my perfectly good Bic Veloce 278 for the latest and greatest. I sold it cheaply to a bloke who we'd all guess would probably not give it a lot of use. They then go up in the rafters for a decade and then on to the tip.

How bad and outdated was the Veloce 278/288 any way? I can't remember it being a "slapper". I'd put that recollection down to my youth way back then?

windtechwindsurfing.com/products/cruise-missile

yeah it's a valid concern. doesn't apply so much for me. certainly does for others who updgrade every year.

in my case, every board i own gets used and i don't upgrade unless needed after years of abuse..

my last quiver of sails i replaced after 6-7 years..... all of them are still being used by the people i sold too. my current short board is prob 10 years old now. the WOD in the garage still gets use at least every fortnight. sups are the same. had my sup now for 5+ years. the LT gets used fortnightly and the sail on that is god knows how old.

all of my other boards were bought second hand and they all get used regularly. except the smaller volume ones for cyclones.

in the 90's i owned a 9'2 wave slalom which i eventually creased in the surf, then i got a 95lt fish which i snapped the nose off after years of use. then a formula board i snapped the tail off which was re glued until i eventually sold when it went a soft. after that is a board i'm still using today.

building boards is about trying shapes. if i can do that and minimise my footprint like i do in other aspects of my life then that's something i'll strive to do.

i get everyone has their own take. the green board thing really does apply more to large volume manufacturers more so than some dude trying diy in his back yard.

there's also the goal of trying to work safely with materials that won't kill me.

Can someone tell me which planet all these materials like composites,resins,styro foams etc come from?

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choco said..
Can someone tell me which planet all these materials like composites,resins,styro foams etc come from?

Could be from any one of the 6 billion earth-like planets in the Milky Way.

phys.org/news/2020-06-billion-earth-like-planets-galaxy.html

But wikipedia suggests they are all petrochemicals, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical , so they come from the same source as the juice you put in the vehicle you use to get to your windsurfing destination. Windsurfers seem to get about in pretty heavy duty vehicles. Down size to a vehicle that uses one litre less per 100km and you should cancel out the ecological dent made by your latest board in about one tankful.

so i've gone completely down the rabbit hole. all the way to trying to source eco or recycled products for every element of the finished board.

there are a lot of eco products around but i've tried to draw a line in the sand with eco products not from Australia due to transport.

from what i was able to understand, that immediately excluded cork and hemp. i haven't got to the bottom of basalt and flax yet.
there are however very few items that aren't trying to achieve some level of environmental result. Where i can't satisfy that requirement i'll choose local first. it is amazing what is actually out there thanks to the surfboard industry and kudos to starboard as well.

finboxes i'm toying with building out of timber but really not sure that will work structurally. i've designed something that is easy to build but think it might be something to work up to. has anyone ever done this?

Today i ordered the foam. thanks to Tarquin for the heads up. i was able to source 60-80% recycled eps. SL grade for about 1/3 the cost of the last non recycled block i bought. to be honest the saving was significant.. win win.... finding 60-80% recycled eps locally combined with the 77% Australian bio resin i already have is a significant start.

Sanded Australia have a huge range of strange cloths and more .
Is SL grade 13 kg?

yeah that's right. what did you use on your board again?

i emailed sanded tonight asking for some more details.

On my last board I only used their Aussie e glass .
The board before I used Basalt Innegra hex weave at 45 deg over the blank . Its important whatever cloth you choose , to pull at it at different angles and see which way it stretches and doesn't and use it accordingly on how you want stiffness .It's hard to tell how good it is as I over engineered it with cork sandwhich and is indestructible. Now that's eco , it's going to last longer than the pyramids . I will use it again on my next normal sized board.
The guy is worth ringing and up for a chat about his products and is very honest about what works and is very helpful.

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Imax1 said..
On my last board I only used their Aussie e glass .
The board before I used Basalt Innegra hex weave at 45 deg over the blank . Its important whatever cloth you choose , to pull at it at different angles and see which way it stretches and doesn't and use it accordingly on how you want stiffness .It's hard to tell how good it is as I over engineered it with cork sandwhich and is indestructible. Now that's eco , it's going to last longer than the pyramids . I will use it again on my next normal sized board.
The guy is worth ringing and up for a chat about his products and is very honest about what works and is very helpful.

thx i'll look to doing that.

keen to understand more about stretching the cloth.. a few people have advised against carbon so the board flexes and doesn't break as easy.

Basalt won't satisfy your aussie made thing as its pretty much all Russian / Ukranian / Northern asian etc product. They were the ones to develop it industrially and China jumped on it too. Not aware of any western places melting and spinning it (and if so we're not getting it)

But it will satisfy the cheap and useful - its as strong as S-Glass (which simply can't be found in the widths we need now) and a bit stiffer than S-glass. A really good way to make a solid board without paying carbon prices (about 20% the price of carbon)
I used basalt years ago for rifle stocks and loved it, playing with it now in 4oz for my new board bottom, and in a basalt/innegra on deck (still plenty of carbon due to the low modulus of innegra though)

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Gestalt said..
so i've gone completely down the rabbit hole. all the way to trying to source eco or recycled products for every element of the finished board.

there are a lot of eco products around but i've tried to draw a line in the sand with eco products not from Australia due to transport.

from what i was able to understand, that immediately excluded cork and hemp. i haven't got to the bottom of basalt and flax yet.
there are however very few items that aren't trying to achieve some level of environmental result. Where i can't satisfy that requirement i'll choose local first. it is amazing what is actually out there thanks to the surfboard industry and kudos to starboard as well.

finboxes i'm toying with building out of timber but really not sure that will work structurally. i've designed something that is easy to build but think it might be something to work up to. has anyone ever done this?

Today i ordered the foam. thanks to Tarquin for the heads up. i was able to source 60-80% recycled eps. SL grade for about 1/3 the cost of the last non recycled block i bought. to be honest the saving was significant.. win win.... finding 60-80% recycled eps locally combined with the 77% Australian bio resin i already have is a significant start.

Great to see. You are lucky in Oz. Companies like Colan are doing a great job.
As for the fin box I know people have made wooden US boxes. I think Riley balsa boards used to sell Australian made US boxes. What sort are you using?
Also interested in what epoxy you have found. 77% Australian,where does the rest come from? Only joking.

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tarquin1 said..

Gestalt said..
so i've gone completely down the rabbit hole. all the way to trying to source eco or recycled products for every element of the finished board.

there are a lot of eco products around but i've tried to draw a line in the sand with eco products not from Australia due to transport.

from what i was able to understand, that immediately excluded cork and hemp. i haven't got to the bottom of basalt and flax yet.
there are however very few items that aren't trying to achieve some level of environmental result. Where i can't satisfy that requirement i'll choose local first. it is amazing what is actually out there thanks to the surfboard industry and kudos to starboard as well.

finboxes i'm toying with building out of timber but really not sure that will work structurally. i've designed something that is easy to build but think it might be something to work up to. has anyone ever done this?

Today i ordered the foam. thanks to Tarquin for the heads up. i was able to source 60-80% recycled eps. SL grade for about 1/3 the cost of the last non recycled block i bought. to be honest the saving was significant.. win win.... finding 60-80% recycled eps locally combined with the 77% Australian bio resin i already have is a significant start.

Great to see. You are lucky in Oz. Companies like Colan are doing a great job.
As for the fin box I know people have made wooden US boxes. I think Riley balsa boards used to sell Australian made US boxes. What sort are you using?
Also interested in what epoxy you have found. 77% Australian,where does the rest come from? Only joking.

the epoxy is from a company called change climate. has the highest bio content (77%) i can find. i haven't dug into the full depths of their product yet but on the surface it looks pretty good. my gut is that it's made from imported products but i don't know. uses standard hardener.

finboxes i can't find made sustainably. there are a few options for local

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Mark _australia said..
Basalt won't satisfy your aussie made thing as its pretty much all Russian / Ukranian / Northern asian etc product. They were the ones to develop it industrially and China jumped on it too. Not aware of any western places melting and spinning it (and if so we're not getting it)

But it will satisfy the cheap and useful - its as strong as S-Glass (which simply can't be found in the widths we need now) and a bit stiffer than S-glass. A really good way to make a solid board without paying carbon prices (about 20% the price of carbon)
I used basalt years ago for rifle stocks and loved it, playing with it now in 4oz for my new board bottom, and in a basalt/innegra on deck (still plenty of carbon due to the low modulus of innegra though)

yeah this is where it all seems to get very grey. is basalt made from imported raw material a better choice than locally made fiberglass. im going to try and find that out. there has been studies into embodied energy of laminates but nothing i can find comparing basalt. definitley basalt is a better choice than carbon but we can build boards without carbon.

the aussie made ideal may not stretch to the raw materials. i don't know yet as ultimately it depends on what's available.

footstraps are another example. starboard do yulex footsraps. they are imported. i am not aware of an australian footstrap manufacturer let alone one focused on the environment. so my other option is to recycle or make my own out of recycled materials. some of those materials are imported anyways so may aswell just source the starboard straps.

i'm working up a spreadsheet to identify the choices.

You could just buy a local used board
One less board in the world going to landfill in coming years

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tonyk said..
You could just buy a local used board
One less board in the world going to landfill in coming years

yeah it's definitely a strategy which i've done in the past.
am still thinking of buying a cheap old board and harvesting parts too.

Try give Simon @ www.lavender-ce.com a call. Last time I talked to him he was very into the eco composite materials. If he's still there it'd be worth having a chat.

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swoosh said..
Try give Simon @ www.lavender-ce.com a call. Last time I talked to him he was very into the eco composite materials. If he's still there it'd be worth having a chat.

Thanks mate. Its been a long time hope all is well.

That bio epoxy looks good. I thought 77% was high and they do say highest bio content epoxy available. Looks like it's made in Malaysia. Uses industrial waste too. Not cashew nuts! Mix ratio of about 3:1 which isnt bad. Some of the bio stuff I use is 2:1. More hardener which is the bad stuff.
There is a company that made a surfboard with it. Maybe contact them and see how it was to use and how the board has lasted.

For econess , I'd buy a basket case for foot plugs , mast and fin box .
Ive done that a couple times . It seems so wrong and at the same time feels so good hacking at a board with a hand saw , big screw driver , hammer and pinch bar. . I've got a ripper carbon Tuttle box surrounded with hard foam from an older Aussie made race board , ( can't remember who ) , The whole thing still with top and bottom lam weighs nothing . Its going in my next board .
Wish it was pb , got more good fins for that.

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Imax1 said..
For econess , I'd buy a basket case for foot plugs , mast and fin box .
Ive done that a couple times . It seems so wrong and at the same time feels so good hacking at a board with a hand saw , big screw driver , hammer and pinch bar. . I've got a ripper carbon Tuttle box surrounded with hard foam from an older Aussie made race board , ( can't remember who ) , The whole thing still with top and bottom lam weighs nothing . Its going in my next board .
Wish it was pb , got more good fins for that.

i had my eye on a cheap local board but it sold!!

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tarquin1 said..
That bio epoxy looks good. I thought 77% was high and they do say highest bio content epoxy available. Looks like it's made in Malaysia. Uses industrial waste too. Not cashew nuts! Mix ratio of about 3:1 which isnt bad. Some of the bio stuff I use is 2:1. More hardener which is the bad stuff.
There is a company that made a surfboard with it. Maybe contact them and see how it was to use and how the board has lasted.

just finished reading their website. An amazing company it needs to be said.
they are heading towards 100% bio resin but that aside their ambition, intent and ideas tick every box for me.

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Gestalt said..

Imax1 said..
For econess , I'd buy a basket case for foot plugs , mast and fin box .
Ive done that a couple times . It seems so wrong and at the same time feels so good hacking at a board with a hand saw , big screw driver , hammer and pinch bar. . I've got a ripper carbon Tuttle box surrounded with hard foam from an older Aussie made race board , ( can't remember who ) , The whole thing still with top and bottom lam weighs nothing . Its going in my next board .
Wish it was pb , got more good fins for that.

i had my eye on a cheap local board but it sold!!

For ultimate econess , something like an old starboard go 170 or starboard start . If you gently removed all the parts and skin and then reshaped the core , that is what I call recycling.
Could get one for $300 and still have foot plugs to spare .
pushing that envelope further you could reuse the bottom lam also . Slice it down the middle for v or concave . Would save the planet more than any other option. By %

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Imax1 said..

Gestalt said..

Imax1 said..
For econess , I'd buy a basket case for foot plugs , mast and fin box .
Ive done that a couple times . It seems so wrong and at the same time feels so good hacking at a board with a hand saw , big screw driver , hammer and pinch bar. . I've got a ripper carbon Tuttle box surrounded with hard foam from an older Aussie made race board , ( can't remember who ) , The whole thing still with top and bottom lam weighs nothing . Its going in my next board .
Wish it was pb , got more good fins for that.

i had my eye on a cheap local board but it sold!!

For ultimate econess , something like an old starboard go 170 or starboard start . If you gently removed all the parts and skin and then reshaped the core , that is what I call recycling.
Could get one for $300 and still have foot plugs to spare .
pushing that envelope further you could reuse the bottom lam also . Slice it down the middle for v or concave . Would save the planet more than any other option. By %

I've been looking for an old beat up Formula board for that exact purpose. Something with ruined rails and nose.
Conversely I have a old slalom board which needs more volume to be used with a foil and I've been thinking up creative ways to add it.

you can cut the old boards into planks, glue them together and start from scratch. i'd be keen to try this also. keeping my eye out.
www.reecosurfboards.com/

the option to buy the recycled eps blocks is hard to beat. it's cheaper and the eps is fused so there are no glue seams to deal with during hand finishing.

i heard back from John at Sanded. Very helpful.

a couple of things

currently no fibers for making composites are made in australia. it's the cloth that's made in australia by weaving the imported fibers.
Flax is equivalent to 3oz glass so for windsurfers is more decorative than structural.
there is an aim to produce hemp cloth grown and processed in australia but its not there yet.
PET cloth shows a big increase to breaking strength when added to fiberglass

John included a link to an article on the PET cloth in swell net. www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2019/10/29/fantastic-plastic

in the article a few other products were referenced. One that jumped out was a company called Bloom. They make algae based eva. the algae is used to clean industrial waste water then harvested and processed into EVA.

in the same article is a reference to woolight that firewire have trialled.

basalt when compared to fiberglass. taken from composites world article.

basalt fibers are naturally resistant to ultraviolet (UV) and high-energy electromagnetic radiation, maintain their properties in cold temperatures, and provides better acid resistance.

Reportedly, basalt also is superior in the realm of worker safety and air quality as well. Since basalt is the product of volcanic activity, the fiberization process is more environmentally safe than that of glass fiber. The "greenhouse" gases that might otherwise be released during fiber processing, he says, were vented millions of years ago during the magma eruption. Further, basalt is 100 percent inert, that is, it has no toxic reaction with air or water, and is noncombustible and explosion proof.

an update on cores for the laminates looking like 2 options.

1. paulownia
locally sourced and milled in 4mm thick strips.

2. balsa end grain
available in thinner veneers than paulownia. a mix of local and imported balsa fabricated in nsw.

Something for the future and not available in australia currently is an rPET foam foil. 3mm thick high density flexible foam.
made from 100% recycled plastic. the company also does rPET foam board products that would suit vac bagging that are currently available in australia.