Bouke-Witchcraft said..










I agree with you that boards are not environmentally friendly. But so is nearly everything we do. I also do not call it that, I think it is misleading. That is why I say they are the least damaging for the environment. Which at the moment simply is the best we can do without going back to the stone age. Windmills and solar panels still have to be made and transported as well. An airplane made from carbon fibre is more fuel economic than one made of aluminium, so what is better then? And ships are by far the worst. I have seen designs of freight ships using wind power that would do a lot more than the whole windsurf industry together. But that should not stop the industry from doing their part. The tree planting thing is just marketing in my opinion. Off course planting trees is good. But it will be added on the price. What if someone wants to save that money to invest in solarpanels? Or planting his own trees for that matter?

Even you are still using recycled EPS and many other non sustainable stuff, including the transport to get these materials. So if your board lasts as long as a "normal" production board from say Cobra (where 90% of windsurf boards are made?) and is of the same weight, you are only allowed to use 25% non sustainable material compared to a board that lasts 4 times as long as a normal production board. Can you do that? I doubt that very much. And if you cant you are the one that should not throw stones. And certainly not till you have actually PROVEN you can do it. I am pretty sure that with todays available "ECO" materials, if it is the same weight, it will not last by far as long as even a normal board. Or if it does it will be a LOT heavier. Even if you personally would accept that weight penalty, it would be unsellable unless the competition (is forced to) does the same and it may stop many people going windsurfing at all. In the end maybe that is where we will have to end up any way to "save the planet" or better said: save humanity. But that is something we will have to do collectively. Some will have to lead for sure but those will have to make sure others will follow. That is why I was saying such a rule for the PWA would be good to start with. Customers can push brands to follow. If Starboard really thinks it is better and performance and durability is the same, why still offer normal made boards? Now for sure that is +90% of their business. And the "ECO" offering is marketing.

The same for these "ECO" labels for surfboards. I had a look into that a while ago. As long as a part of such boards is still made with non-sustainable materials, longevity should be taken into account. And they dont. If you use an X% of "BIO" materials, you get the label, if it falls apart many times faster or not. So it is marketing. At the moment I have a 9 foot long board in for a small repair which is 23 years old, weighs 5.3kgs and shows no sign of fatigue.

olskool said..
Gestalt, yes its great to build ECO. Surely LONGEVITY must also be considered in the equation.
Great also to be aware of ones carbon footprint.
But I'm sure there are BETTER more beneficial/productive ways to reduce carbon footprint.
Quit being a consumer to major companies business models. There is so much guff that we are all told we MUST have to survive. But ya don't really.
Wanna really reduce the carbon footprint of day to day life?
LIVE OFF GRID.
So many carbon savings to be made on ALL levels...
Seriously... Stop n think about the entire equation.

no matter how great the boards construction is it will end up in landfill and the design will be outdated and left behind.

but your boards are not the least damaging to the environment. if they are then go and get your boards and business certified. i have no issue being wrong, eating my words. it should be easy for you based on everything you've said. there are sustainable iso standards, there is the ecoboard standard. go for it. show me the money as they say.

why continue to sledge starboard, they have certifications and ecoboard standards that you don't have. if you look you will see in general that their boards include sustainable materials. the eco offering as you put is is their standard offering.. their carbon boards are limited run order only with a 4 month lead time.

you've pretty much hijacked the thread. making out like your boards are the most eco, the best built. you've shown you care nothing for the environment and are interested only in pushing your brand above all others. like i said. show me the proof. otherwise it's all bull****. go get yourself certified... other than that i'm not gonna bother responding to you beyond this. i'll keep building the board this thread is about which will be able to be certified. unlike any of your boards.

you have really cherry picked. prior to that he says that manufacturers using single use plastic should be banned from events. he also says that 10x carbon neutral is his ambition.

Overner said..

















Do you know once a long time ago I would have agreed with this. That was until Josh Angulo won Cabo Verde on a very outdated board design and looked incredible doing it, and he continued to use those same boards for years to come. In an interview he said this type of board suited him so why would he change to something modern that didn't suit him quite as well?

Mr Robby Naish in his recent interview on Windsurf.tv said "I would prefer to be on single fin boards... but I can ride anything..."

I get the impression fashion and marketing are the main drivers to buying new boards, certainly as much as fatigue and improvements in design.

I am not saying that boards haven't improved, more that if gods like Naish and Angulo would choose to stick with what they know, why oh why should us mere mortals and weekend warriors not embrace longevity too.

In surfing you see guys on 50+ year old boards cruising happily and not worrying if the board is the latest trend or not.

I still periodically use 15+ year old boards when the conditions suit. I still have a whale of a time on the old boards and they are still tough as old boots. And that is because Bouke invested in quality materials with low incidence of fatigue. There are lighter boards, there are cheaper boards, but Bouke has found a way of using materials that few people have invested the time to figure out properly, and it works.

I repair boards locally for friends who have posh and sexy new boards. They are in my shed every few sessions for a ding, crease or soft deck repairs. I patch them up and send them on their way, but those boards are less than a season old and already knackered.

I had a Starboard Carbon Reflex in twice in two weeks from a very good local sailor. He is into push loops and forwards etc. It had a 2mm deck sandwich and the carbon stops very abruptly either side of the mast track, which it where the deck keeps going soft and breaking. The board is seriously the lightest I have ever seen, 5.3 kgs including wet straps. But this poor chap's frightened to use the board as every time he does he owes me more beer!

Overner said..





Do you know once a long time ago I would have agreed with this. That was until Josh Angulo won Cabo Verde on a very outdated board design and looked incredible doing it, and he continued to use those same boards for years to come. In an interview he said this type of board suited him so why would he change to something modern that didn't suit him quite as well?

Mr Robby Naish in his recent interview on Windsurf.tv said "I would prefer to be on single fin boards... but I can ride anything..."

I get the impression fashion and marketing are the main drivers to buying new boards, certainly as much as fatigue and improvements in design.

I am not saying that boards haven't improved, more that if gods like Naish and Angulo would choose to stick with what they know, why oh why should us mere mortals and weekend warriors not embrace longevity too.

In surfing you see guys on 50+ year old boards cruising happily and not worrying if the board is the latest trend or not.

I still periodically use 15+ year old boards when the conditions suit. I still have a whale of a time on the old boards and they are still tough as old boots. And that is because Bouke invested in quality materials with low incidence of fatigue. There are lighter boards, there are cheaper boards, but Bouke has found a way of using materials that few people have invested the time to figure out properly, and it works.

I repair boards locally for friends who have posh and sexy new boards. They are in my shed every few sessions for a ding, crease or soft deck repairs. I patch them up and send them on their way, but those boards are less than a season old and already knackered.

I had a Starboard Carbon Reflex in twice in two weeks from a very good local sailor. He is into push loops and forwards etc. It had a 2mm deck sandwich and the carbon stops very abruptly either side of the mast track, which it where the deck keeps going soft and breaking. The board is seriously the lightest I have ever seen, 5.3 kgs including wet straps. But this poor chap's frightened to use the board as every time he does he owes me more beer!

Gestalt said..
Well done Duotone

Duotone has partnered with Waste2Wear to make all sail bags out of 100% recycled PET nylon. The base for this material are "fished" plastic bottles from Chinese fishermen.
An average size sail bag is made from 35 bottles.

i also notice something about being carbon neutral... that's very cool.

Bouke-Witchcraft said..









And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail? If they really wanted to do something for the environment they should improve that as well. But mostly they will be looking to save weight. We repair sails and a well reputed sailmaker from the UK also gives me info on the sails he gets to repair from all over the UK. There is a big brand that to save weight do not reinforce the leach on their wavesails, causing a lot of them to fail on the same spot when the rest of the sail would still have quite a bit of life left in it. Even when not used in waves, the sail breaks because of leach flutter. Still this is one of the most sold brands at the moment.

Bouke-Witchcraft said..









And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail? If they really wanted to do something for the environment they should improve that as well. But mostly they will be looking to save weight. We repair sails and a well reputed sailmaker from the UK also gives me info on the sails he gets to repair from all over the UK. There is a big brand that to save weight do not reinforce the leach on their wavesails, causing a lot of them to fail on the same spot when the rest of the sail would still have quite a bit of life left in it. Even when not used in waves, the sail breaks because of leach flutter. Still this is one of the most sold brands at the moment.

Bouke-Witchcraft said..


And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail?

Carantoc said..








$50 bet says that if I bought a Duotone sail tomorrow with an "eco" bag I'd unroll the sail and find 6m2 of plastic film and 6m2 of foamy plastic stuff wrapped around the sail.

I'd then collect all this up as it blows around the rigging spot and put it in the nearest bin, never ever to wrap the sail up ever again using this padding.

Why do new sails need this plastic rubbish ? Who ever re-uses it to roll a sail up ? What is the point other than re-assuring you that the sail is new ?

Bouke-Witchcraft said..





And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail? If they really wanted to do something for the environment they should improve that as well. But mostly they will be looking to save weight. We repair sails and a well reputed sailmaker from the UK also gives me info on the sails he gets to repair from all over the UK. There is a big brand that to save weight do not reinforce the leach on their wavesails, causing a lot of them to fail on the same spot when the rest of the sail would still have quite a bit of life left in it. Even when not used in waves, the sail breaks because of leach flutter. Still this is one of the most sold brands at the moment.

Overner said..
@ Gestalt

I hear your frustration. I empathise. I truly do. I've tried to find an alternative I am happy with, and failed.

if you develop something better, get it patented and charge the rest of us a fee to use the tech.
Trying to compare a surf log (longboard) from the 1950's with a modern performance windsurf board is nonsense. The expectation of the board is vastly different.

Fact remains those boards haven't made it to landfill and are still providing pleasure. That should be celebrated. I just hope their workers didn't die of emphysema, or have significant impacts on their cognition because of the toxic fumes.

Carantoc said..




$50 bet says that if I bought a Duotone sail tomorrow with an "eco" bag I'd unroll the sail and find 6m2 of plastic film and 6m2 of foamy plastic stuff wrapped around the sail.

I'd then collect all this up as it blows around the rigging spot and put it in the nearest bin, never ever to wrap the sail up ever again using this padding.

Why do new sails need this plastic rubbish ? Who ever re-uses it to roll a sail up ? What is the point other than re-assuring you that the sail is new ?

sailquik said..
I am the proud, but slightly frustrated owner of at least a dozen old windsurfing boards that are still in great condition, are still perfectly usable, but have been superseded by better designs (some a LOT better, some only slight better, but enough to make the difference that I never use them - except maybe once in a blue moon for nostalgic reasons). So these dozen + boards clog up my shed and take up space which I really don't like. That does not include the other 8 or so boards which have high historical or sentimental value - mostly old polyester speed boards which I call my 'Museum'. or the old Race Roard, Formula, Go and a couple of tandems, between 35 and 10 years old, which DO get used a few times a year.

I think I have only one single board in there that is actually in bad enough state of disrepair that I could not use it, but it was such a favourite bump and jump (self built polyester) board that I harbour desires to rebuild/repair it some day.

I honestly can't remember EVER dumping a board in the Tip, but I have sold dozens in the early years when the designs were progressing very quickly. Hell, in the '80's I sold 40-50 new rotomoulded longboards in just few years in my small country town. I have not seen any of those boards for 30 years, so they are either all in Landfll now, or still hanging forlornly in garages all over town!

My point is, I have all these quite good, serviceable boards, which I will almost certainly never use again, that I can't really sell or even give away (I have tried with a few. ), and they are most likely destined to end up in the Tip anyhow, even if I could sell them for a song or give them away.

And I still have people around town bringing me serviceable old boards and asking me if I would like to have them, or know some kid they could give them to! Sorry - no.

Gestalt said..





every time i go to the tip have a look at the pile of windsurf gear. nothing really worth taking home but a couple of the local guys have picked up a board for a few months then sent it back to be buried.

tarquin1 said..
www.bcomp.ch/
These guys do flax and hybrid flax carbon tapes. I have used it for the rails on a SUP. I used some of their ski cores to make panels for a hollow wood SUP as well.

@Gestalt

i appreciate the empathy but not sure if you picked up i'm not doubting if it can be done. you and donald not being able to do it isn't slowing me down.