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Grantmac said..
I'm having the opposite problem. Over an hour until the epoxy gels even with a fast hardener. Was starting to worry that I'd messed up the ratios until I brought the whole thing inside next to the fire. Thankfully it was just a nose repair and not a full build (haven't done that yet).

I thought there were ways people have worked on to do vac bagging without any significant waste? Also the few times I've seen it done didn't seem very loud, maybe that was because they used an old fridge pump?

i'd be keen to know if there are ways with less waste. did a bit of a google search and found reusable bags but seems they are more for repetitive forms.

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Imax1 said..
Lookin good Gastalt
Will u glass over the balsa , if so will it be clear to see the balsa sexiness ?
On my build I used 4.5 oz biax glass under standing area and that also used a huge amount of resin . I think it's a biax thing . Even though it's light and bendy it is thick . Probably best used in a vac .

the plan was to use the same 8.5oz biax/basalt schedule over the balsa core and paint the finished board.

the bottom was going to be 8.5oz biax/basalt. then the entire board wrapped in 3oz rPET

Prob will rethink that and forget the rPET because the biax/basalt lamination is very solid. more solid than i thought it would be.
once the balsa and hardware are installed i'll weigh the board and figure out what to do from there.

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tarquin1 said..
Nice work. Yes thats a lot to do in one go by yourself.
I mix up batches if I am doing a SUP. I did a 11x30 SUP once. Thats when pumps are great and you can quickly mix another batch.
Pouring the mixed epoxy into a big roller tray will slow it down as well.
I had a few cups of resin measured out so I just had to add hardener. I have a big syringe I use for the hardener. Put the resin cup on the scale add hardener with syringe. Its quick and easy.
Lab pumps are diaphram pumps. I bought one that had a valve and gauge added. Quiet and no oil mist that you get from a normal pump. Expensive but worth it if you decide.
Still can't get basalt here!
Keep the pics coming.

i got offered a pump that produced oil mist. the price was very good but i turned it down because of the mist and noise. did you have any tips on diaphram pump brands.

i am surprised how tuff the basalt feels. there is 4 layers total on the nose and it feels like rock. pressing hard on the deck of the board where there are no patches there is very little movement. if the final weight comes in low enough it could be a great way to build a board. time will tell.

looking at the board tonight and flexing it, i'm thinking the rebate has made the board stronger. like a fold in metal sheet does.

fingers crossed you get some basalt cloth to try at some point. would be interested in your opinion of it compared to glass.

using greenpoxy56 on this build because i couldn't get change climate bio resin. at this stage i prefer the change climate bio resin. the greenpoxy is like traditional resins where as the change climate was runnier and took longer to go off so gave me more time.

also, the greenpoxy makes me a little itchy. the change climate bio resin had no side effects.

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Gestalt said..

also, the greenpoxy makes me a little itchy. the change climate bio resin had no side effects.

Please tell me you are using nitrile gloves. PPE is not something to f**k with.

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Gestalt said..

Grantmac said..
I'm having the opposite problem. Over an hour until the epoxy gels even with a fast hardener. Was starting to worry that I'd messed up the ratios until I brought the whole thing inside next to the fire. Thankfully it was just a nose repair and not a full build (haven't done that yet).

I thought there were ways people have worked on to do vac bagging without any significant waste? Also the few times I've seen it done didn't seem very loud, maybe that was because they used an old fridge pump?

i'd be keen to know if there are ways with less waste. did a bit of a google search and found reusable bags but seems they are more for repetitive forms.

I could have sworn the guy going Paulownia over EPS had some sort of vinyl bag which was reusable? Maybe that only worked for his specific application?

Really interested in your experience with basalt, I have never seen it in use before. I can only find it on Aliexpress.

What were you hoping the 3 ounce rPET would do? I am assuming it is a fabric, rather than a foam.

I use a very heavy reusable bag from these guys: www.bagpress.com/Home.html

I think it is PU. Tough as old boots. I have made probably 15 boards with one bag before it started to get micro tares, and they were because I stopped using peel ply, bread wrap and breather.

I have since gone back to peel ply, bread wrap and breather, it just works better with fewer bridges and less resin left on the board.

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Overner said..

Gestalt said..

also, the greenpoxy makes me a little itchy. the change climate bio resin had no side effects.

Please tell me you are using nitrile gloves. PPE is not something to f**k with.

I don't wear gloves , I just wash hands in petrol then scrub hard with soapy water with a scratchy pad .
Ive never had any problems . Though that lump on my neck is getting bigger and growing facial features .
Is it really that bad ?
I only build one or so boards a year + repairs .

The distributor of Sicomins in the UK outlined some horror stories after I said I used latex gloves or washing up gloves. And a couple of guys who work for one of the bigger surfboard builders in Cornwall could never use epoxy again after a serious reaction. But they said they were washing their hands in acetone too.

I was told only use nitrile gloves as the irritants can get through latex gloves. I use Extra thick nitrile gloves and long sleeves to make sure nothing nasty gets on my skin.

like you I only build a few boards a year, but it isn't worth the risk. Better to not build than to hurt yourself during a build.
look after yourself! Please.

^^^
FINE , I'll use gloves next time .
Seriously , thanks , I will

Good on ya. Look after yourself. Skin is your biggest organ, best to look after it. It's permeable after all!

i'm using ppe and doing some stuff outside for better ventilation.
gloves are latex. it's an eco board after all. nitrile adds to landfill.

i'm usually in a t shirt, boardies and thongs. not very ppe there. will at least look into longer gloves after your comments. ive also been drilled on safety gear by a local experienced shaper who developed reactions.

do you know of any acetone replacements? notox surfboards say on their website they use non voc cleaners. i'd love to ditch the acetone as occasionally i need to dip a finger in it and it's not great stuff.

the rPET is cloth. sanded suggested i use it with the basalt. testing they did showed it improved fiberglass strength when included in the layup.

looking forward to change climate coming back into stock. eco boards aside, this just underlines why bio epoxy and eco materials are good for the user.

Like your work Gestalt
A couple of questions and comments;
the basalt stringers is a tape product? which looked like it wrapped around the bottom edge really well!
the basalt cloth of 45 degree bias to give more strength against creasing? How is it to cut? Is it like Kevlar where you take a rough file to the scissors edge?

Was working on mates plywood glass cat at the hard stand and he didn't bring gloves so I went over and asked to borrow as appreciate PPE.
Jeez I remember building epoxy vac sandwich windsurf boards that we shared space with polyester surfboard brand and laminators no gloves or respirator compared to us with sanding suit, respirator and gloves and for laminating an apron to save your clothes.
Agree that vac bag is going to last many boards.

The bloke who lent me gloves had surfboards in his van so you get talking. At first glance they looked like polyester but no EPS core with paint and recycled Kauri stringers laminated in epoxy bio resin. Like you he wanted to reduce impact and didn't use surf leash plug but made a resin glass bridge to tie leash to.

Keep up the great work

Eco or not. Epoxy still has amines and bisphenols. The eco part is a bulking oil. It is still an irritant and bad for your health. Eco doesn't mean safe. Arsenic is eco, Tabacco is eco, just because it is bio derived does not make it safe for human consumption.
latex is too similar in chemistry to your skin so irritants leach through, or so I am told. Nitrile gloves are always what has been recommended to me.
I managed to burn myself with a bio resin that was UV cure - 99% cracked linseed oil. The makers said you don't need gloves it will make your skin soft. But I took a board outside to cure and some of the resin was on my wrist and it burnt my skin during the cure.

Read the safety instructions on the bottles/ product sheet they will all say to use gloves, and for a good reason.

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Overner said..
Eco or not. Epoxy still has amines and bisphenols. The eco part is a bulking oil. It is still an irritant and bad for your health. Eco doesn't mean safe. Arsenic is eco, Tabacco is eco, just because it is bio derived does not make it safe for human consumption.
latex is too similar in chemistry to your skin so irritants leach through, or so I am told. Nitrile gloves are always what has been recommended to me.
I managed to burn myself with a bio resin that was UV cure - 99% cracked linseed oil. The makers said you don't need gloves it will make your skin soft. But I took a board outside to cure and some of the resin was on my wrist and it burnt my skin during the cure.

Read the safety instructions on the bottles/ product sheet they will all say to use gloves, and for a good reason.

certainly means more safe so lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

repeating from before. - are you recommending foaming epoxy for use without vac bag and do you know of any non voc solvents.

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515 said..
Like your work Gestalt
A couple of questions and comments;
the basalt stringers is a tape product? which looked like it wrapped around the bottom edge really well!
the basalt cloth of 45 degree bias to give more strength against creasing? How is it to cut? Is it like Kevlar where you take a rough file to the scissors edge?

Was working on mates plywood glass cat at the hard stand and he didn't bring gloves so I went over and asked to borrow as appreciate PPE.
Jeez I remember building epoxy vac sandwich windsurf boards that we shared space with polyester surfboard brand and laminators no gloves or respirator compared to us with sanding suit, respirator and gloves and for laminating an apron to save your clothes.
Agree that vac bag is going to last many boards.

The bloke who lent me gloves had surfboards in his van so you get talking. At first glance they looked like polyester but no EPS core with paint and recycled Kauri stringers laminated in epoxy bio resin. Like you he wanted to reduce impact and didn't use surf leash plug but made a resin glass bridge to tie leash to.

Keep up the great work

the basalt stringer is 70mm wide uni rail tape. it doesn't feel as stiff as carbon rail tape once laminated. the basalt rail tape was very easy to work with. the folds seemed easier than carbon rail tape but that could be the weave difference. the basalt is soft and once wet out forms easily.

sorry my mistake the -45 +45 cloth is technically called double bias cloth and not biax which i have seen it called elsewhere. i just checked the Colan website so i'll get it right from here on.
it's supposed to improve the laminate strength by improving torsion strength but i got it mainly because it is suggested for improving impact strength which i was concerned about when using low density eps.

seems combining it with the uni cloth has worked well.

i love the resin glass bridges. that's art.

Denatured alcohol is a good alternative to acetone.

Yes I use alcohol too. Try to avoid acetone.
This is the pump I use. Its small and quiet. I suck most of the air out with a vaccum first.




I have been working on and around boats for years. Covered myself in all sorts of horrible stuff. Back in the day masks and gloves were unheard off. I try and be more careful now and make anyone working for me wear a mask and gloves.
Epoxy fumes are bad but it dosnt stink like polyester so you don't think about it. Wear a mask with the right cartridges.
I have a few friends that are allergic to epoxy now. It just happens one day and you cant go near it again. One guy lost his job as a boat builder.
The board will get stiffer as the epoxy hardens properly.
Your comment about it feeling as hard as rock made me laugh, basalt is rock!
Read the tech data for the epoxy and see what temp they say for curing. It can make a huge difference in final strength. Black plastic over the board in the sun will heat things up. Becareful in OZ it might get too hot!


This is an 11ft SUP I vac bagged then left it the sun with garbage bags over it. It was only high teens temp outside but it got pretty warm in there. Cant remember exactly but it surprised me. Probably hot enough on the Gold Coast to just put it outside!

This is my latest build. 220 x 55.5 x 12 - 75 litre board for a friend. Full Volan glass / carbon sandwich. I used Corecork for deck and rails and Nomex honeycomb for hull. I tried an 'unpainted' look and am unsure. It looks a bit unfinished to me.

Rocker nabbed from a Goya quad and outline is similar to a Quatro pyramid / Witchcraft V5.

Gestalt,

I am not recommending you use foaming epoxy. I cannot see how you would get a decent bond without a vac bag.

I also think you haven't looked at the chemical composition of your eco products. You will find they are exactly the same as their petrol chemical counterparts, but with an alternative bulking oil. The dangerous bits, the bisphenols and amines are still in there and should be given respect.

Thx for the alcohol tips and vacuum lead.

sanded the deck and tidied the rail laps today.