Madge said..
Hello one and all,

I have been reading what everyone has got to say to the make of these sails, but firstly as some of you seem far more educated in areodynamics than anyone who I have every worked with I thought that I might need to say who I am.

I have worked for some of the biggest sail makers in the world, designed AC sails and worked on sail rocket project, also I have worked for F1 as a front wing designer so my credentials on this matter I believe are ok.

Why are people asking such ridiculous questions about angles of attack, like these people are going to correct the designer.

Double skin sails on the right craft are quicker, no questions. Putting up pictures of lasers, sailing with their tel-tales flying is totally rubbish.

Sail rockets sails have hardly any twist and its done nearly 65 knots.

F1 front wings are not there for their wind releasing ability, they actually force the car down putting more wight through the Axel, thus into the tyres.

This bloke who is making the sails has come up with something new within our stagnant sport. Gaastra tried with their total flow head system and then canned it but this bloke at MW should be applauded not criticised by people with far too much time on their hands and have their heads up their own arses.

Until proven otherwise be grateful someone is trying to keep our sport alive with new ideas......We;; done I say....

Thank you very much! And Happy New Year!

MWsails said..
I don't know how things in Australia but in Europe and USA race sails not really popular.

That's only true for the USA, not for Europe. Just look at Defi Wind, and you'll see more than 1000 race sails on the water at the same time. Judging from the videos, almost every single racer is on full slalom gear. Along the same lines, retailers in Germany say that slalom gear is by far the best selling gear. The Bavarian speed event (https://www.speed-kini.de/) has about 100 participants who used race sails. It covers only Bavaria, a landlocked state with less than one sixth of the German population. At least in France and Germany, two of the biggest windsurfing markets in Europe, slalom sailing and race sails are popular. Judging by posts on the GPS Team Challenge, it's also popular in the Netherlands, Belgium, and Croatia.

The biggest windsurf race in the US is the OBX Wind long distance race in April. It is about 10-fold smaller than the Defi Wind, and only about 10% of the participants use race sails. At times, it is impossible to get slalom boards or race sails in the US. One of the largest retailers had prepaid orders for race sails canceled by the importer because "race sails don't sell". Several members of our GPS TC team have ordered race sails in Europe because stores in the US did not even bother to return emails. There is just one area in the US where I have seen a relatively large amount of race sails and slalom gear: Corpus Christi in Texas. Some days, about 1/4 of the windsurfers are on slalom gear. It probably helps that the local store has one long-term employee who races slalom. But overall, race sails and slalom boards are not nearly as popular in the US as they are in Europe and Australia.

Of the multiple factors that contribute to this discrepancy, perception plays a big role - many windsurfers I know would give exactly the same arguments as MWsails for not using race sails, without ever trying them. If someone tries and gets a used race sail or two, then lack of mates with slalom experience becomes an issue. Figuring out the correct trim, stance, and technique for any gear can be hard. For freeride or wave gear, there'll be plenty of windsurfers to ask. For slalom gear, not so. It took me quite a few years before I had gotten enough tips from better sailors to be comfortable on slalom gear. But 49 out of 50 sessions in these years, there was nobody around who was able and willing to give those tips.

On the bright side, things are slowly changing. The OBX long distance race will go into it's third year in 2018 and is growing; the event includes a slalom clinic, and the local store has started carrying slalom gear. With a widening user base, others may discover that race sails are much better and easier to use than they thought - to cite my wife about her favorite race sail: "amazing - it feels just like a freestyle sail".

John340 said..
MW, your comments about race sails may be valid for your sailing spot but not for mine. Yesterday we had 40+ windsurfers on Moreton Bay Brisbane. 80% of them were on race sails and recorded their speeds etc on GPSTC. I weigh 88kgs. I used a 7.9. The wind slowly built from 13 to 20kts. I sailed comfortably all afternoon.

+ 1. It was a good day. I was one of the 20 % on freeride gear and sailed for 4 hours on a Severne Gator 6.5m no cam freeride sail. I was planing in 12 knots and perfectly comfortable at 20 knots with no tuning changes required. I would have still been hanging on with gusts up to 25 knots with a bit more outhaul. I cannot speak in general about all modern sails as i cant try them all, but it seems to me the wind range on conventional modern sails is very good, both with and without cams.
I was being passed by the race sails, and yes i am considering buying some despite whatever the downsides are, because who doesn't want to go faster .

Madge said..
Hello one and all,

I have been reading what everyone has got to say to the make of these sails, but firstly as some of you seem far more educated in areodynamics than anyone who I have every worked with I thought that I might need to say who I am.

I have worked for some of the biggest sail makers in the world, designed AC sails and worked on sail rocket project, also I have worked for F1 as a front wing designer so my credentials on this matter I believe are ok.

Why are people asking such ridiculous questions about angles of attack, like these people are going to correct the designer.

Double skin sails on the right craft are quicker, no questions. Putting up pictures of lasers, sailing with their tel-tales flying is totally rubbish.

Sail rockets sails have hardly any twist and its done nearly 65 knots.

F1 front wings are not there for their wind releasing ability, they actually force the car down putting more wight through the Axel, thus into the tyres.

This bloke who is making the sails has come up with something new within our stagnant sport. Gaastra tried with their total flow head system and then canned it but this bloke at MW should be applauded not criticised by people with far too much time on their hands and have their heads up their own arses.

Until proven otherwise be grateful someone is trying to keep our sport alive with new ideas......We;; done I say....

Nicely put

My $0.0001....

I cannot hang on to a bedsheet in the recommended windspeeds, curved foil or not...
Is there some benefit of a flat-windward-surface, which allows me to control the sail-area ?

mathew said..
My $0.0001....

I cannot hang on to a bedsheet in the recommended windspeeds, curved foil or not...
Is there some benefit of a flat-windward-surface, which allows me to control the sail-area ?

Yes. Read cfd blog on mwsails.com it will be posted every week.

Mr MW.
You really need to take a step back, have a good look at the situation here (Seabreeze).
Stop posting until there is real practical evidence of your claims here in Australia. You should probably invest some more of your time getting your product into our hands., not your ideas into our heads. Focus on getting a following within any of the many facets of windsurfing or get some positive competition results.
If it is as you say then bring it on! Who doesn't want to go faster with more control?
Until Then.
As John said "Gobbledegoop"
At least its entertaining

wingsails ?
ttps://

seanhogan said..
wingsails ?
ttps://

That's how I always thought you'd get to the water from any car park south of Cott groyne! And that was 25 odd years ago too!

MWsails said..

Scrondies said..

seanhogan said..
wingsails ?
ttps://

That's how I always thought you'd get to the water from any car park south of Cott groyne! And that was 25 odd years ago too!

Funny. Is that really you don't see the difference? Couse I can't see any sign of anology. Try to read MWsails.com , than tell me if it worked.

whoosh...

Edit: https://obx-wind.com/ Outer Banks Long Distance Race this spring. This would be a good time to see MWSails vs an array of competing freeride, freerace and race sails.

MWsails said..

Subsonic said..

vortex said..

duzzi said..

MWsails said..

decrepit said..

MWsails said..
>>>> I did not call him a liar . He just said that rig doest'n need to be changed with wind. This is a lie.

It's not a lie, it's interpretation of semantics. Just because people after absolute performance choose to change sails every 6kts, doesn't mean the average Joe has to!
This was my point much earlier on about efficiency. A sailor can only make use of as much power as they can counter balance, after that they have to sheet out, the excess sail area is then just drag. So it's not about sails being unstable out of their wind range, it's about different wind ranges for different weight sailors.

And no matter how good the wind range of any sail is, once the sailor is using all their weight to counterbalance it. With any increase in wind speed from there on, a smaller sail will be more efficient.
So I really can't see how your sails are any different in that respect, even if you only NEED 1 sail for the whole wind range, there's still going to be a fairly narrow band where it's most EFFICIENT, and this will vary with the riders weight, and to a certain extent height.

Everybody knows that if you use 7.0 at 14 kt it will fail at about 20 , Not because it generate too much power but because it become uncontrollable and useless. But before it fails it become slower, much slower, it doesn't generate more power it just center of power shifting rapidly and human can't react fast enough. The reason why wing has mega range it because center of power stays stationary disregard of wind speed, And this is why it faster, simply because it continuously generate lift while other sails fail.

This thread is hilarious: do you actually windsurf? A free race/race 7.0 works perfectly fine in 20 knots. I am no pwa level sailor, weight 68 kg, and I could take my 6.6/4 cams sail out when people were planing on 4.5 and be comfortable ... and I clocked my best speeds in those conditions: no becoming slower!

Oh this is because you're superman! You are the greatest of the great and you can handle everything! But for the rest of us who have to use 4.5 while you enjoy your 7.0 or whatever , I have wing sail with proper aerodynamics to enjoy.

Dont get me wrong here, im quite interested in some of the concepts youve put forward with this sail.

Im a bit lighter again than duzzi, and a 7.0 race sail is manageable in 20knots. 4.5 even in a wave sail, i'd be under done.

Im looking forward to hearing how people who've bought one of your wing sails go with it. And how it stacks up against a traditional cambered sail, in a real world test.

Look I can tune up and handle large sail in very (relatively to sq m area) strong winds while others wandering how it humanly possible ? And actually many of us can. But call it user friendly ... I can't. It is amazing to me when people claim how stable racing sail is. In reality majority of windsurfers don't like race sails at all. Retailers say that it is difficult to sell them , so they don't sack them, Also some sail brand sites say user friendly 40% . Stability and performance of wing sail and what you can do with it, is no near in comparison with any sail on the market. I would like to get more people involved writing reviews and share experience, but we are in between seasons, so not in the cards now. In meanwhile we're posting CFD blogs on our website where people can learn facts and compare traditional and wing sails. www.mwsails.com/blog

Here you go again. Your assumptions are false.

Race sails are stable. Efficient? ... Maybe not. The reason people in the US don't seem to like race sails, is not because they aren't stable or fast enough. It is that they are heavier, more expensive, & more complicated to rig & tune compared to say freeride or wave sails. They are willing to sacrifice ultimate performance for simplicity. Why would an average sailor want to use a bigger sail than they have to? If a performance oriented sailor can truly use a smaller sail to get more power, speed etc.. then THAT is your market.

gorgesailor said..

MWsails said..

Subsonic said..

vortex said..

duzzi said..

MWsails said..

decrepit said..

MWsails said..
>>>> I did not call him a liar . He just said that rig doest'n need to be changed with wind. This is a lie.

It's not a lie, it's interpretation of semantics. Just because people after absolute performance choose to change sails every 6kts, doesn't mean the average Joe has to!
This was my point much earlier on about efficiency. A sailor can only make use of as much power as they can counter balance, after that they have to sheet out, the excess sail area is then just drag. So it's not about sails being unstable out of their wind range, it's about different wind ranges for different weight sailors.

And no matter how good the wind range of any sail is, once the sailor is using all their weight to counterbalance it. With any increase in wind speed from there on, a smaller sail will be more efficient.
So I really can't see how your sails are any different in that respect, even if you only NEED 1 sail for the whole wind range, there's still going to be a fairly narrow band where it's most EFFICIENT, and this will vary with the riders weight, and to a certain extent height.

Everybody knows that if you use 7.0 at 14 kt it will fail at about 20 , Not because it generate too much power but because it become uncontrollable and useless. But before it fails it become slower, much slower, it doesn't generate more power it just center of power shifting rapidly and human can't react fast enough. The reason why wing has mega range it because center of power stays stationary disregard of wind speed, And this is why it faster, simply because it continuously generate lift while other sails fail.

This thread is hilarious: do you actually windsurf? A free race/race 7.0 works perfectly fine in 20 knots. I am no pwa level sailor, weight 68 kg, and I could take my 6.6/4 cams sail out when people were planing on 4.5 and be comfortable ... and I clocked my best speeds in those conditions: no becoming slower!

Oh this is because you're superman! You are the greatest of the great and you can handle everything! But for the rest of us who have to use 4.5 while you enjoy your 7.0 or whatever , I have wing sail with proper aerodynamics to enjoy.

Dont get me wrong here, im quite interested in some of the concepts youve put forward with this sail.

Im a bit lighter again than duzzi, and a 7.0 race sail is manageable in 20knots. 4.5 even in a wave sail, i'd be under done.

Im looking forward to hearing how people who've bought one of your wing sails go with it. And how it stacks up against a traditional cambered sail, in a real world test.

Look I can tune up and handle large sail in very (relatively to sq m area) strong winds while others wandering how it humanly possible ? And actually many of us can. But call it user friendly ... I can't. It is amazing to me when people claim how stable racing sail is. In reality majority of windsurfers don't like race sails at all. Retailers say that it is difficult to sell them , so they don't sack them, Also some sail brand sites say user friendly 40% . Stability and performance of wing sail and what you can do with it, is no near in comparison with any sail on the market. I would like to get more people involved writing reviews and share experience, but we are in between seasons, so not in the cards now. In meanwhile we're posting CFD blogs on our website where people can learn facts and compare traditional and wing sails. www.mwsails.com/blog

Here you go again. Your assumptions are false.

Race sails are stable. Efficient? ... Maybe not. The reason people in the US don't seem to like race sails, is not because they aren't stable or fast enough. It is that they are heavier, more expensive, & more complicated to rig & tune compared to say freeride or wave sails. They are willing to sacrifice ultimate performance for simplicity. Why would an average sailor want to use a bigger sail than they have to? If a performance oriented sailor can truly use a smaller sail to get more power, speed etc.. then THAT is your market.

Probably you misunderstood me, or we misunderstood each other. I don't go after race sails. It's just someone brought it up as a benchmark for stability and speed. Any sail, including race, can not compare in stability and overall performance with wing. The core of design of wing is different and more advanced than simple curved plate profile. Yes, wing is stable, faster, better, but I'm not going after racing market at all. Because majority of sailors want reliable and enjoyable ride. Not everyone wants racing skis, or race car, or go faster than anyone else. What I'm trying to tell here, is that my sail is so good, stable , safe , reliable that it will instantly make you a better sailor. For how long people were dreaming about sail that doesn't need up-haul , sail that doesn't sink, sail that doesn't overpowers at all? Our sport is getting smaller and smaller and reason for it, not many youth wants to go through difficult learning curve. Imagine you bring your wife, girlfriend of child, rig one sail and she or he will stay with you on the water entire secession with no complain, about too much wind, too big sail etc. ,just enjoy the whole day! This is what my sail is all about. Don't ask me to break speed record or win event, I don't want to do it . But if you so competitive, Just take my sail, get to the right conditions and it will do it for you. This technology set to win. Anyway, you don't have to get my sail now , you can wait until someone gives you proof or whatever you re waiting for. . Wingsail is here and its here to stay.

MWsails said.. . Any sail, including race, can not compare in stability and overall performance with wing. The core of design of wing is different and more advanced than simple curved plate profile. Yes, wing is stable, faster, better......

SHOW US

(I'm done now)

hardie said..

MWsails said..

hardie said..
Obviously I'm bored again to respond, Having just helped my daughter with her marketing subject at Uni, The emphasis appeared to be on asking the customer what they wanted, and not deciding to produce something for the market without asking the customer and then telling them that this is the product that they need/want = Marketing 101 = probably explains the huge negative response, for something that could have been seen as a positive?

PS. If I had money to spare, for curiosity's sake and the advancement of windsurfing, I would buy one, and share it around the Western Australian windsurfing community, and ask for feedback?

Okay Hardie next time before inventing anything , I'll ask you: what you want? But now you have to deal with harsh reality.

Dear MW, it is your marketing that is the problem, not your inventiveness, i think most comments reflect this. You have failed most of the basic principles of Marketing 101 and you get an "F". Regarding your inventiveness that definitely gets a pass, what grade is what is debatable, because you have no scientific data to show the claimed superiority of your product?

So many wise minds here have advised you and your responses have reflected at the very least an inability to receive feedback, at worst.........

Your wise minds still discussing superiority of thin airfoils. So lets get "wise" out equation. Your minds need do some catch up with time. 2018 now FYI . Happy new year. Scietific data is on my webpage , CFD blog. Update every Friday. MWsails.com

Lots of unsubstantiated claims of superior product. No independent comparative testing available. Good marketing advice not being heeded.

I'm done too.