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Gestalt said..
mclube have a couple of products worth looking at that have been around for many years. Sailcote probably the most known

Yes, I am aware of that, but that is just one of the variables.

This project is looking at the structure and surface chemistry of the ski sole as well.

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SurferKris said..
Cross-country skiing has been the subject of research for quite a long time, now AI is also invoked in Sweden:
www.ltu.se/en/latest-news/news/news/2024-04-29-new-method-improves-glide-for-cross-country-skis

Yes, that's another example.

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dedekam said..
New developments are certainly possible (imo)

One aspect that seems to gets little attention is how to reduce the friction of the hull (board). The only manufacturer (that I have seen) giving this some attention is FMX boards using paint developed in America's Cup.
Imagine a hull with absolutely no friction - earlier/easier planing, higher/more accessible, top speeds etc etc.

In Norway there is an on-going project working to develop the world's fastest cross-country ski.
A ski moving across the snow creates friction, that melts snow resulting a small amounts of water on the ski surface. This creates drag.

This project just might produce some results that are relevant for windsurfing.
Link to article (in English)
www-forskning-no.translate.goog/bygningsmaterialer-laser-materialteknologi/na-skal-forskere-lage-verdens-raskeste-ski/2470932?_x_tr_sl=no&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp

FMX by sure did something good by tackling this point. I am not an expert in this, but I know that surface finish/materials behave differently depending on speed. What works at a given speed, may not work at different speeds. This is related to the flow characteristics (Reynolds number), so also temperature, density (salt water vs. fresh water) get in the game. As I see that there is not an established industry standard yet (i. e.: previous designs from Chris Lockwood such as the '13 m? slalom boards showed a glassy polished finish, recent ones such as the Tribal radix do not) I tend to think there is no definitive answer.
And, by the way: friction reduction (beyond a certain point) is really important, provided speed seekers (slalom and speed sailors) usually sail overpowered?
Thinking.

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duzzi said..

Take 20' of your precious scientific time and do the test:
test.mensa.no/home/test/en ... Once you will know exactly where you sit among the general population, you will also know how you do appear to others every time you speak your mind.

hum ... I just scored 149 in that silly (and long) "test", but what has that to do with how I do appear to others? I am confused ...

If you are brilliant, usually you say brilliant things (or at least are able to reckon silly things and avoid sayng those) and therefore you are more readily recognized as a brilliant guy from others.If you are not brilliant, usually you will say lots of silly things and at least those who are more brilliant than you (and if you are not brilliant, those will be many) will recognize you as such.
So it's a good thing for everyone if not-so-brilliant people avoid speaking too much. Expecially for them, and if they don't like to appear not-so-brilliant.Not your problem of course. You even scored 149 in a test that measures up to a 145 maximum.

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SchobiHH said..


As i already said, you suggestion of just looking up the technical properties of one component (i.e. the PVC) of the whole construction is a much to simplistic view.
...

Oh wow ChatGPT.
Useful.
But it is not that once put in a sandwich structure, PVC mechanical properties may be unregarded.
When the outer skin will flex, PVC will be compressed.
Elastic outer skin (usually epoxy-carbon or at least epoxy-glass) will flex and then go back to its initial state.
Will PVC go back to its initial state too, once the load goes back to zero? Maybe, but PVC is brittle and not much elastic, so ...
As for the EPS: it simply does not cooperate in the structure, due to its very low mechanical properties. But in its case, as it is protected by the whole sandwich laminate (not just the outer skin as in the case of PVC), compression (due to sandwich flex) will be spread over a large surface and therefore be minimal, probably (PROBABLY) well inside its elasticity limit. And, what's more, due to its poor mechanical qualities, even supposing it gets crushed, it will not be able to keep the tough elastic stiff sandwich laminate from getting back to its original shape.
This is reasoning in "engineer mode": try to understand where to look exactly, as some parts of the problem MAY be paramount re. others, before/instead facing the problem as a whole.
Maybe physicist prefer to tackle the whole of the problem all at the same time, thanks to their superior mental qualities. But then one should expect a clear answer from them.
To me, the answer is: PROBABLY the problem is in the PVC foam slightly crushing, PROBABLY use of higher grade PVC would solve or reduce it.

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geoITA said..

duzzi said..

Take 20' of your precious scientific time and do the test:
test.mensa.no/home/test/en ... Once you will know exactly where you sit among the general population, you will also know how you do appear to others every time you speak your mind.

hum ... I just scored 149 in that silly (and long) "test", but what has that to do with how I do appear to others? I am confused ...

If you are brilliant, usually you say brilliant things (or at least are able to reckon silly things and avoid sayng those) and therefore you are more readily recognized as a brilliant guy from others.If you are not brilliant, usually you will say lots of silly things and at least those who are more brilliant than you (and if you are not brilliant, those will be many) will recognize you as such.
So it's a good thing for everyone if not-so-brilliant people avoid speaking too much. Expecially for them, and if they don't like to appear not-so-brilliant.Not your problem of course. You even scored 149 in a test that measures up to a 145 maximum.

I'm brilliant.

It is true that we had a massive advancement in kit in the last ten or fifteen years but maybe that has now slowed, especially in wave gear.
The board shapes, lengths, and fin numbers are no longer changing, and the sail designs are no longer getting lighter each year, or changing batten numbers.

I was reassessing all my windsurf kit recently, in time for a new summer season here in the UK, and I realised that I'd not really changed much since the Covid lockdowns. My excellent Severne S1 wave sails are still excellent haha, and my boards are still the same shapes. For 2025 I have replaced some of my sail sizes with the more recent editions of the same model, and I've bought a couple of Severne Blades, but that's to deal with wear and tear, and to have a change - rather than to get better kit.
With my boards, it was also time for some fresh equipment, but the new Pyro 87 that arrived this week is much the same shape as my last two Pyros, and there's no other board design that has grabbed my attention recently.

Plus on my local beach, everyone has shifted their attention to wingfoiling for the lighter days, and that's where the new technology is.
In truth those going wing foiling are getting the most time on the water, so hence the shift in interest. Windsurfing here now tends to happen when it's 4.7m weather or windier. When conditions are good however, it's the same old faces out there, and back on their windsurf gear.

The worry is, that not much new windsurf gear is selling, and that's bad for our sport - n terms of turnover and future investment. The second hand market will also take a hit eventually, with only old gear and out of date designs still available.

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Imax1 said..
I'm brilliant.

That is an amazing new development!
The future is bright

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Basher said..
It is true that we had a massive advancement in kit in the last ten or fifteen years but maybe that has now slowed, especially in wave gear.
The board shapes, lengths, and fin numbers are no longer changing, and the sail designs are no longer getting lighter each year, or changing batten numbers.

I was reassessing all my windsurf kit recently, in time for a new summer season here in the UK, and I realised that I'd not really changed much since the Covid lockdowns. My excellent Severne S1 wave sails are still excellent haha, and my boards are still the same shapes. For 2025 I have replaced some of my sail sizes with the more recent editions of the same model, and I've bought a couple of Severne Blades, but that's to deal with wear and tear, and to have a change - rather than to get better kit.
With my boards, it was also time for some fresh equipment, but the new Pyro 87 that arrived this week is much the same shape as my last two Pyros, and there's no other board design that has grabbed my attention recently.

Plus on my local beach, everyone has shifted their attention to wingfoiling for the lighter days, and that's where the new technology is.
In truth those going wing foiling are getting the most time on the water, so hence the shift in interest. Windsurfing here now tends to happen when it's 4.7m weather or windier. When conditions are good however, it's the same old faces out there, and back on their windsurf gear.

The worry is, that not much new windsurf gear is selling, and that's bad for our sport - n terms of turnover and future investment. The second hand market will also take a hit eventually, with only old gear and out of date designs still available.

This is not uncommon in other things either. While there have been huge leaps in aviation technology in the last 70 years, the DC-3 is still flying 90 years after its introduction and the B-52, a Cold War airframe, is expected to be in the US military arsenal for another 25. In the cycling world, restomods are the hot thing - bolting modern components to vintage steel frames. The performance is off a touch from the latest and greatest but not by much and, for some, it's a much more interesting ride.

In these cases, once the basic design, geometry, etc has been sussed out, most of the improvements come from the peripherals. Same thing has been happening in windsurfing as mentioned above. Even in windfoiling where a lot of the innovation has happened in the last eight years, something five years old is quite nice for going out and having a good time if you don't want to be at the bleeding edge.

The potential bright spot is that what used gear from recent years is available, it's very serviceable. In the past, getting a board that's ten years old could be a significant step down in usability and performance from current boards but that's much less the case now. It's also important to separate what's going on in the industry from technology somewhat plateauing with the general post-Covid recreation industry shock.

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geoITA said..

duzzi said..

Take 20' of your precious scientific time and do the test:
test.mensa.no/home/test/en ... Once you will know exactly where you sit among the general population, you will also know how you do appear to others every time you speak your mind.

hum ... I just scored 149 in that silly (and long) "test", but what has that to do with how I do appear to others? I am confused ...

If you are brilliant, usually you say brilliant things (or at least are able to reckon silly things and avoid sayng those) and therefore you are more readily recognized as a brilliant guy from others.If you are not brilliant, usually you will say lots of silly things and at least those who are more brilliant than you (and if you are not brilliant, those will be many) will recognize you as such.
So it's a good thing for everyone if not-so-brilliant people avoid speaking too much. Expecially for them, and if they don't like to appear not-so-brilliant.Not your problem of course. You even scored 149 in a test that measures up to a 145 maximum.

I regret already taking the bite, but really ... if you think that a silly pattern recognition test says anything about "intelligence" or "brilliance", not to mention knowledge, you have a bit of a problem.

BTW Try again. The score test seems to go higher than 145. Maybe it cannot count?

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Basher said..

The worry is, that not much new windsurf gear is selling, and that's bad for our sport - n terms of turnover and future investment. The second hand market will also take a hit eventually, with only old gear and out of date designs still available.

That seems to be already a problem. At least around here, in the San Francisco Bay Area, and possibly the whole USA, the used market has all but collapsed. You are not able to sell almost NEW gear to anybody, and it looks like you have to pre-order many new boards months and months in advance ... kind of a good thing in some ways. I was looking at the new 2025 Duotone FSW but it seems it might not be available in the USA ... which saves me a little chunk of money!

All in all, footstraps (& pads) remain consistently primitive.
Especially a)compared to other sports and b)seen the bodily havoc they create

But i can predict rain thru my metatarsals

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duzzi said..

geoITA said..

duzzi said..

Take 20' of your precious scientific time and do the test:
test.mensa.no/home/test/en ... Once you will know exactly where you sit among the general population, you will also know how you do appear to others every time you speak your mind.

hum ... I just scored 149 in that silly (and long) "test", but what has that to do with how I do appear to others? I am confused ...

If you are brilliant, usually you say brilliant things (or at least are able to reckon silly things and avoid sayng those) and therefore you are more readily recognized as a brilliant guy from others.If you are not brilliant, usually you will say lots of silly things and at least those who are more brilliant than you (and if you are not brilliant, those will be many) will recognize you as such.
So it's a good thing for everyone if not-so-brilliant people avoid speaking too much. Expecially for them, and if they don't like to appear not-so-brilliant.Not your problem of course. You even scored 149 in a test that measures up to a 145 maximum.

I regret already taking the bite, but really ... if you think that a silly pattern recognition test says anything about "intelligence" or "brilliance", not to mention knowledge, you have a bit of a problem.

BTW Try again. The score test seems to go higher than 145. Maybe it cannot count?

"This online test gives an indication of general cognitive abilities, represented by an IQ score of between 85 and 145, where 100 is the population average. This test is not a substitute for professional intelligence tests, such as those administered by Mensa and licensed psychologists." (test.mensa.no/home/test/en)
I never said I "... think that a silly pattern recognition test says anything about "intelligence" or "brilliance", not to mention knowledge ...".
The preliminary test is what it is, I am in no position to express judgements (of course your position is different as you even broke the test upper limits, so your judgement about it being "silly" is surely sound).

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Doggerland said..
All in all, footstraps (& pads) remain consistently primitive.
Especially a)compared to other sports and b)seen the bodily havoc they create

But i can predict rain thru my metatarsals

I use windsurf straps on my wing board.

I want to improve the bit between boom and the board

good plan, about 100kg of unwieldy bone-lard composite in my setup.
Shaper must have been a buffoon.
Contemplating sanding it down with P12/extra coarse as a cathartic fix.

It has been tried before, but this is a new take for an easy to transport and morphing board newavesurf.com/en/home/

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peterowensbabs said..

I often pull out my pocket wind meter at the lake to check and chuckle at the true wind speed (8-14 knots as often as not with gusts 12-18 at best) whilst people around declare "must be blowing 25 out there..." white caps and shaking casurena trees are trick indicators of true wind speed. The other factor ignored that you would be aware of as an ocean racer is wind density, cold wet dense heavy air v's hot dry summer sea breeze. 35 knots in Hawaii is windy but pleasant. 35 knots in Northern Europe or winter UK/Ireland is horrible and destructive!

Wet air is LESS dense than dry air.

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ptsf1111 said..
Video above looks like a quick way to break some bones.

I think there has been a lot done to make windsurfing easier if you compare it to the narrow and heavy gear that was used back in the days, the difference is day and night.

Especially beginner gear is now so user friendly, we're able to teach adults and kids how to windsurf in basically no time. 20 minutes of practice on the beach and in the right conditions, most people with zero experience are able to uphaul, sail back and forth while holding the boom, tack, and gybe from the get go. It's absolutely amazing and wouldn't have been possible without the modern gear.

After that, progressing to planing also gets easier but takes a little longer (we've had folks planing on their 5th session). Don't forget that windsurfing is a super technical sport and that makes it so appealing/frustrating (choose you're version) to many as you're never done learning. That can't be changed with any evolution if you're still staying true to windsurfing.

Some consider wingfoiling an evolution of windsurfing and I don't disagree although it's still quite different so it should be more seen as a variant of windsurfing maybe.

I was thinking about this the other day and I wonder if ease of learning is actually a good thing? If it's easy, is it rewarding? And if you can immediately feel successful do you think, ok done that, whats next? And the flip side of that, if it was so hard to learn before, why was it so popular?(Relatively) Or...was it really that hard before. I don't remember it being really hard to learn, but that was a long time ago!
I personally feel the popularity of windsurfing is linked to its emphasis on being a planing sport, rather than a fun pastime for all winds.

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sheddweller said..

peterowensbabs said..

I often pull out my pocket wind meter at the lake to check and chuckle at the true wind speed (8-14 knots as often as not with gusts 12-18 at best) whilst people around declare "must be blowing 25 out there..." white caps and shaking casurena trees are trick indicators of true wind speed. The other factor ignored that you would be aware of as an ocean racer is wind density, cold wet dense heavy air v's hot dry summer sea breeze. 35 knots in Hawaii is windy but pleasant. 35 knots in Northern Europe or winter UK/Ireland is horrible and destructive!

Wet air is LESS dense than dry air.

Yes you are correct I miss spoke as it's the temperature that affects the density strictly, but comparison is valid hot vs cold.