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Chris 249 said..

As I tried to make clear, I completely understand why people choose to have lots of sails and as you said it's up to the buyer, but the point is that the claim "modern sails have wider wind ranges" has been made for decades on end and yet there seems to be no evidence that it's really happening.

Current kit
Small FSW Quatro Tetra 89l: 4.5 & 5.2m - when there are waves or its too windy for the 94l
Cross 94l: 4.5 (in harbour) 5.2, 6.0 and sometimes 6.5m
Medium freerace AV119l (was Exocet 110l): 6.5 & 7.5
Large freerace Exocet S4 125l: 8.5m

Plus a foil board but lets ignore that.

There is a large overlap in some areas because I sail in more than 1 place and conditions vary a lot. I like to have the perfect setup for the conditions.
I could reduce my kit to 3 boards and 5 sails but prefer not to.
90 - 95l FSW 4.5 & 5.2m
105 Freerace 6.0 & 7.0m
135l Freerace 8.5m

But the small FSW wouldnt be so good for harbour blasting. My Cross 94l is too fast for 4.5m on the sea sometimes as the chop is egg box shape. 8.5 to 7.0 is a jump, but manageable, especially in the harbour, less so on the sea when the chop picks up more.
What dingy sailors use is irrelevant as they dont have to hang onto the kit in the same way.
But we are getting away from new developments in windsurfing.

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Chris 249 said..

PWA sailors these days are allowed seven sails, which is actually more than pros used 40 years ago. That cannot be happening if sail ranges are increasing.

3 sails for slalom-x and 4 for foil doesnt make 7 sails total.
They are separate disciplines.

Of course everyone could sail a LT & 1 sail, but everyone could ride a Harley Davidson if they wanted

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PhilUK said..

Chris 249 said..

PWA sailors these days are allowed seven sails, which is actually more than pros used 40 years ago. That cannot be happening if sail ranges are increasing.

3 sails for slalom-x and 4 for foil doesnt make 7 sails total.
They are separate disciplines.

Of course everyone could sail a LT & 1 sail, but everyone could ride a Harley Davidson if they wanted

That was 7 sails for slalom, although it seems that they did change that a couple of years back - the PWA puts up rule changes without dating them! However, that is a rule restriction whereas back in the day it was common to have fewer sails when there were no restrictions. In 1987 you had 3-7 sails to do PWA racing in slalom when there were no restrictions, in the 2020s they limited it to 7 sails. If sails were getting a wider range then there would have been no need to impose rules to keep the number down to more than people used decades ago. If sails were getting a wider range the pros would now choose fewer sails, rules or no rules.

What dinghy sailors use isn't irrelevant; they don't have to hang onto rigs in the same way but that's only one aspect of sailing and sail design. And as noted earlier, many windsurfer classes have got across the entire range with one or two sails, so it is a simple fact that windsurfing does not NEED more than one sail to cover a 25 knot wind range quite adequately.

I'm not saying that everyone has to choose to sail with one sail (I have far more sailing kit than you do so I get your point about the fun of having just the right kit for the day) but the point is that there are developments that can happen and that what happens technologically in a sport is very largely determined by what the industry and others choose to do. Therefore new windsurfing developments to make the sport simpler (as the OP asked for) are clearly possible IF we accept compromises.

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Chris 249 said..

That was 7 sails for slalom, although it seems that they did change that a couple of years back - the PWA puts up rule changes without dating them! However, that is a rule restriction whereas back in the day it was common to have fewer sails when there were no restrictions. In 1987 you had 3-7 sails to do PWA racing in slalom when there were no restrictions, in the 2020s they limited it to 7 sails. If sails were getting a wider range then there would have been no need to impose rules to keep the number down to more than people used decades ago. If sails were getting a wider range the pros would now choose fewer sails, rules or no rules.

Where do you get your facts from?

PWA slalom sailors were restricted to 6 sails in 2009. 3 boards.
www.pwaworldtour.com/fileadmin/user/main_editors/pdf/Competitor_Equipment_Korea_09.pdf

Before that, they had slalom 42 - 4 sails and 2 boards.
2005 www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?id=38&tx_pwaevent_pi1%5BshowUid%5D=105&cHash=6354b76b537a4eb454933c6d4b324255

They had Slalom Super X that year.

They listed the kit for slalom 42 used in 2008 www.pwaworldtour.com/fileadmin/user/main_editors/pdf/Fuerte_08_equipment.pdf
After 2008 they lowered the wind limit and added an extra board and 2 more sails, so 3 boards and 6 sails. This was done to get more racing done.

Why would racers choose fewer sails? They are competing and want the optimum kit for the conditions. You dont get F1 drivers having a choice of soft, hard or wets and just sticking with 1.

For recreational windsurfers, there is nothing to stop people from choosing 1 board and 1 sail. Guess a BIC Techno could be a good compromise of a 'short' longboard.

PS Now for slalom-x they have just 3 sails and 2 boards, not the 4 sails as in 2008.
nor.pwaworldtour.com/FUERTEVENTURA_2024_SLALOM_X_EQUIPMENT_LIST_WEB.htm

I know people who foil with a 6m as their largest sail, on Severne Redwing, a low aspect slow foil, if you like that sort of foil. Id go 1m larger for extra low wind performance.

So I could have
90 - 95l FSW 4.5 & 5.2m for the wavey stuff
105 Freerace 6.0 & 7.0m (keep for low tides in the harbour)
Foilboard with low aspect foil with 4.5, 5.2, 6.0 & 7.0m.

Or drop the 105 freerace and sail with the foil somewhere deep enough.

But life isnt about compromise and making do with as least as possible, its about having fun.

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PhilUK said..
I know people who foil with a 6m as their largest sail, on Severne Redwing, a low aspect slow foil, if you like that sort of foil. Id go 1m larger for extra low wind performance.

So I could have
90 - 95l FSW 4.5 & 5.2m for the wavey stuff
105 Freerace 6.0 & 7.0m (keep for low tides in the harbour)
Foilboard with low aspect foil with 4.5, 5.2, 6.0 & 7.0m.

Or drop the 105 freerace and sail with the foil somewhere deep enough.

But life isnt about compromise and making do with as least as possible, its about having fun.

Yeah the bigger foils with a 2cam foil sail have a huge amount of range. Somewhere around 10-20kts is a single setup (115 board, 1250cm front wing, 7.0 2cam). I need more wind to have fun with 9.5 or 8.0 on fin.
Race foils and 9.0s extend the range down to 8kts (or below for some great pumpers).I love finning though when it's possible. And foil tech keeps advancing to be rangier/easier to ride.

Phil you asked where I got my facts from about PWA slalom sail rules. Well, I got my facts from the current PWA website, from the PWA's own "PWA rules and links for download" tab. What's wrong with that? Are you saying that the PWA's own rules on the PWA's own site are wrong?

The relevant rule says;

"{2.5} EQUIPMENT RESTRICTIONS (SLALOM) (a) Competitors may register and compete with a total of 3 boards, 6 sails and 1 set of foil components for the Slalom discipline at any Slalom event. A sailor may only use equipment which is registered in his/her own name."

So am I and PWA wrong? SX is irrelevant as it's a different discipline.

So here's a timeline of the PWA sail number restrictions for slalom;

2005- 4 sails;
2008- 4 sails;
2009 - 6 sails;
2023- 6 sails;

The point is that the number of sails has NOT dropped over time, so where is the evidence that wind ranges are wider? If wind ranges were getting wider why did the PWA allow MORE sails?

Racers in other sailing classes DO often choose to have less gear, because if you have gear with a truly wide range then there's less chance of getting caught out with the wrong sail as the wind changes. So we know AS A FACT that there is a very good reason why top racers choose fewer sails. Therefore we can thrown that point away.

If we hadn't been hearing "sail ranges are getting wider" for decades now, it could be believable. But (like the claim "sails are getting lighter", which also often runs counter to simple fact as measured on scales) when it's made year after year after year and there is no evidence that it's occurring, what's wrong with querying it? It relates directly to the OP's point about making gear with a wider range.

Re "But life isnt about compromise and making do with as least as possible, its about having fun."

There's no reason at all that life has to be as simplistic as your quote implies. Simplicity and compromise themselves can be fun. Extra cost, complication, storage and cartage is often not very fun. We are often told that one of the reason people are moving away from windsurfing is because of the amount of gear it supposedly requires so why not listen to that rather than ignoring it?

You say you "could have" six sails for flat water blasting if you were prepared to accept compromises. That's not a small quiver of sails - it's more than most people would have had for similar use eons ago. If sails were getting wider ranges, you and most others would have smaller quivers, all else being equal, and that doesn't appear to be the case.

EDIT - there's a 1983 Gaaatra catalogue on the web saying that a sailor of typical weight could get from from 4 to 47 knots with six sails. If sails were getting significantly wider range all the time, as we are told, we wouldn't be getting catalogues that say we need six or more sails to cover a narrower wind range these days.

Well, on the topic of wind range you get from a sail, I just ordered next years and apparently I'll only need a 6.5 and a 7.5 to cover what I previously had 3 sails to cover. It's always been a case of feeling like I could do without one of the 3 anyway, but you get 3 so you're able to trim and be powered perfectly for the given wind range.

I'm actually half excited to only be owning 2 sails again. Back to easy gear choice. Lots of wind: little sail/little board. Less wind: big sail/big board. By the looks of things it'll be a case of utilizing the 3 provided clew eyelets a lot more.

So back on point;

Yes, IMHO new windsurfing developments are definitely possible. Windsurfing can open itself up to an enormous variety of developments if the sport just widens its concept of what it is. Windsurfing has lost its appeal as the newest or fastest or simplest aquatic windsport, but it's inherently got a wider range of applications than kiting, windfoiling or wingfoiling. Windsurfers can be sailed in far lighter winds, in far smaller waters, in much shiftier winds. Windsurfers can be much safer for longer-distance "cruising". It can appeal to people who don't want to hang around in windy spots (which are often not family-friendly). It can arguably be cheaper than the other sports, and simpler. It can do all these things if it only opens up its own self-concept away from the narrow niche it has put itself into.

That's not to say that windsurfing shouldn't be about wavesailing at Jaws, or GPS speedsailing or freestyle or whatever; it's just that it can be even more.

Without naming names, years ago when some of us tried to put the case for a particular style of board, we were told that it was hopeless; that such boards would never be popular, that such a style of windsurfing was extinct, and that the whole concept of that part of the sport was impossible these days. That part of the sport was (at least last time I heard) the world's top selling board and it's getting fields of 250 plus. Many people are completely wrong when they imply that this fantastic sport has to remain in a narrow niche.

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Chris 249 said..
So back on point;

Yes, IMHO new windsurfing developments are definitely possible. Windsurfing can open itself up to an enormous variety of developments if the sport just widens its concept of what it is. Windsurfing has lost its appeal as the newest or fastest or simplest aquatic windsport, but it's inherently got a wider range of applications than kiting, windfoiling or wingfoiling. Windsurfers can be sailed in far lighter winds, in far smaller waters, in much shiftier winds. Windsurfers can be much safer for longer-distance "cruising". It can appeal to people who don't want to hang around in windy spots (which are often not family-friendly). It can arguably be cheaper than the other sports, and simpler. It can do all these things if it only opens up its own self-concept away from the narrow niche it has put itself into.

That's not to say that windsurfing shouldn't be about wavesailing at Jaws, or GPS speedsailing or freestyle or whatever; it's just that it can be even more.

Without naming names, years ago when some of us tried to put the case for a particular style of board, we were told that it was hopeless; that such boards would never be popular, that such a style of windsurfing was extinct, and that the whole concept of that part of the sport was impossible these days. That part of the sport was (at least last time I heard) the world's top selling board and it's getting fields of 250 plus. Many people are completely wrong when they imply that this fantastic sport has to remain in a narrow niche.

Very good points, and yes, windsurfing is still the cousin of sailing, and it can do things that no foil or kite can. But I am mostly thinking not about Jaws, or PWA slalom, but that middle ground where a windsurf works great, in a freewave/freeride kind of style, fun easy planing conditions.

I have RRD FSW 90, this is a great board in 4.7 to 6.0, but no much more. A 6.5 does not help in light air, there is not enough volume, and it cannot really handle too well 4.2 conditions, too bulky. So, what can be done to increase that range. One board capable to carry 4.2 to 7.0, or even better a board that DOES not need a 7.0 to work in 12 knots. (I know foil, forget that for now).

One idea put forward has been an electric motor assist. What else?

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Chris 249 said..
2008- 4 sails;
2009 - 6 sails;

The point is that the number of sails has NOT dropped over time, so where is the evidence that wind ranges are wider? If wind ranges were getting wider why did the PWA allow MORE sails?

Like I said, they added 1 board and 2 sails when lowered the minimum wind limit to 7 knots, measured on a rib. I think it used to be 12. I guess you have had to have been watching slalom over the years to realise what was going on.

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Chris 249 said..



There's no reason at all that life has to be as simplistic as your quote implies. Simplicity and compromise themselves can be fun. Extra cost, complication, storage and cartage is often not very fun. We are often told that one of the reason people are moving away from windsurfing is because of the amount of gear it supposedly requires so why not listen to that rather than ignoring it?

You say you "could have" six sails for flat water blasting if you were prepared to accept compromises. That's not a small quiver of sails - it's more than most people would have had for similar use eons ago. If sails were getting wider ranges, you and most others would have smaller quivers, all else being equal, and that doesn't appear to be the case.

Wallowing around with a 7.5m isnt fun to me, thats why I had a larger freerace and 8.5m. A lot of locals here didnt have that size kit. 20% of my sailing was on the 8.5m, I enjoy it. I dont mind the extra cost because I get more time on the water. I've got a van, and a garage.
People arent being driven away from the sport by the amount of gear. If they want, they can buy something like a BIC Techno 'short' longboard and a couple of sails and enjoy the appropriate wind for that kit. If you look at IQ-Foil, the men have 9m and tough it out in 25 knots. But thats no fun in my book.

I have 6 sails, not could have. I could get away with 4 with a foilboard and a bit of compromise, like I said. Go back and read what I wrote.

From using sails and not having to change size so often, I would say sails have a wider range these days. How many the PWA sailors have isnt a measure of the range.

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Chris 249 said..


Racers in other sailing classes DO often choose to have less gear, because if you have gear with a truly wide range then there's less chance of getting caught out with the wrong sail as the wind changes. So we know AS A FACT that there is a very good reason why top racers choose fewer sails. Therefore we can thrown that point away.

What other classes? Not PWA slalom thats for sure. Are you telling me that if someone chooses a 7m as their largest sail they will have an advantage if the wind drops?
In the PWA, if the wind changes significantly they are allowed to change sails, but most of the time they will come in and change after a heat.

And if you believe everything that brands tell you in their brochures we are in trouble.

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Subsonic said..
Well, on the topic of wind range you get from a sail, I just ordered next years and apparently I'll only need a 6.5 and a 7.5 to cover what I previously had 3 sails to cover. It's always been a case of feeling like I could do without one of the 3 anyway, but you get 3 so you're able to trim and be powered perfectly for the given wind range.

I'm actually half excited to only be owning 2 sails again. Back to easy gear choice. Lots of wind: little sail/little board. Less wind: big sail/big board. By the looks of things it'll be a case of utilizing the 3 provided clew eyelets a lot more.

Which 3 sail sizes?
I've had 6.5 & 7.5 Ezzy Lions since 2015 (plus 8.5m as largest), 6.5 & 7.6m 2007 - 2015 (plus 9m as largest). 3 sails covering 6.5 - 7.5 seems overkill.
Whenever I changed down from my 6.5m on 110l freerace, I usually go down to 5.2m on the 95l, not bothering with the 6m. The 6m/95l is good for a starting point when conditions are bumpy and fastest speed isnt the goal.

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Chris 249 said..
Phil you asked where I got my facts from about PWA slalom sail rules. Well, I got my facts from the current PWA website, from the PWA's own "PWA rules and links for download" tab. What's wrong with that? Are you saying that the PWA's own rules on the PWA's own site are wrong?

The relevant rule says;

"{2.5} EQUIPMENT RESTRICTIONS (SLALOM) (a) Competitors may register and compete with a total of 3 boards, 6 sails and 1 set of foil components for the Slalom discipline at any Slalom event. A sailor may only use equipment which is registered in his/her own name."

So am I and PWA wrong? SX is irrelevant as it's a different discipline.

Look at what the registered.
For foil they have 1 board and 5 sails.
nor.pwaworldtour.com/Copy%20of%20FUERTEVENTURA%202024%20FOIL%20GEAR%20WEB.htm
For slalom-x its 2 boards and 3 sails.
nor.pwaworldtour.com/FUERTEVENTURA_2024_SLALOM_X_EQUIPMENT_LIST_WEB.htm

I dont think the PWA rules on their website are up to date. Foil and fin slalom are different now. Or maybe its the Youth events those rules apply to, where that is the total amount of kit they can use. There are foil and fin slalom being held at some events by the looks of the event details.

But none of this has anything to do with sails having a larger wind range than they used to. Not many actually use race sails anyway.

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Chris 249 said..

There's no reason at all that life has to be as simplistic as your quote implies. Simplicity and compromise themselves can be fun. Extra cost, complication, storage and cartage is often not very fun. We are often told that one of the reason people are moving away from windsurfing is because of the amount of gear it supposedly requires so why not listen to that rather than ignoring it?
'
Later that day
'
Without naming names, years ago when some of us tried to put the case for a particular style of board, we were told that it was hopeless; that such boards would never be popular, that such a style of windsurfing was extinct, and that the whole concept of that part of the sport was impossible these days. That part of the sport was (at least last time I heard) the world's top selling board and it's getting fields of 250 plus. Many people are completely wrong when they imply that this fantastic sport has to remain in a narrow niche.

I guess you are on about LT longboards. Sure you can race an LT with 1 sail from 5 - 30 knots or whatever, but I dont consider that fun.
You could limit PWA slalom to 1 board and 1 sail, but it wouldnt be very exciting.

Your entire premise about sail range seems to be from PWA slalom racing.

I've done Mistral IMCO racing, and wouldnt go back to that type of racing. I cant fit one in my van. Kit in my van is out of sight, and it can live there until I need a smaller set/larger set.
If you want portability, get an inflatable wing board setup. Have you seen the uptake on winging?

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Chris 249 said..

PhilUK said..

Chris 249 said..

Carantoc said..
Electric motor assist would seem like the thing everything else has going on.

Just enough to keep the forward momentum on those superlight days or kick you onto the plane on the marginal days ?

Foot button on the deck / push button on the boom or flow sensor in the hull to make it automatic ?

Motor integrated into the board jetski style, so no extra drag from a propellor ?

Must be able to fit an e-foil motor to a fin and give it a go ? Surely somebody has done it ?

That's an extra $6k or so added to each windsurfer judging from the costs of the other electric foilers, isn't it?

Have you seen the electronic mast extension you can change on the fly with a remote. 400 Euros.

Arguably it's a perfect example of the problem - an enormous expense compared to what most people spend on their sport, to obtain what Raceboards have been obtaining for decades at a far lower cost and without the additional complication of changing boom height. Windsurfing is already very complicated, arguably far more complicated than any comparable sport that is more popular, so why keep on going even further the same way for a tiny increase in things that are often arguably largely irrelevant anyway?

Except, current raceboard adjustable downhauls are generally **** and don't work easily or properly, in my view.
A rocker switch on the boom to adjust your downhaul( and outhaul? ) so you don't have to take your hands off would be a significant performance advantage on a raceboard
And while we are at it. The daggerboard adjustment on a raceboard is also **** as is mast track positioning. Changing these 4 adjustments to systems that were easier to use would make raceboard far more enjoyable. Finding a way to do it cheaply and simply would be the holy grail!

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PhilUK said..

Chris 249 said..

There's no reason at all that life has to be as simplistic as your quote implies. Simplicity and compromise themselves can be fun. Extra cost, complication, storage and cartage is often not very fun. We are often told that one of the reason people are moving away from windsurfing is because of the amount of gear it supposedly requires so why not listen to that rather than ignoring it?
'
Later that day
'
Without naming names, years ago when some of us tried to put the case for a particular style of board, we were told that it was hopeless; that such boards would never be popular, that such a style of windsurfing was extinct, and that the whole concept of that part of the sport was impossible these days. That part of the sport was (at least last time I heard) the world's top selling board and it's getting fields of 250 plus. Many people are completely wrong when they imply that this fantastic sport has to remain in a narrow niche.

I guess you are on about LT longboards. Sure you can race an LT with 1 sail from 5 - 30 knots or whatever, but I dont consider that fun.
You could limit PWA slalom to 1 board and 1 sail, but it wouldnt be very exciting.

Your entire premise about sail range seems to be from PWA slalom racing.

I've done Mistral IMCO racing, and wouldnt go back to that type of racing. I cant fit one in my van. Kit in my van is out of sight, and it can live there until I need a smaller set/larger set.
If you want portability, get an inflatable wing board setup. Have you seen the uptake on winging?

In 1995 I had a multi cam 7.0 and a 4.6 wave sail. I would sail the 7.0 and my wife the 4.6. then we would swap. I would power up the 4.6 she depower the 7.0. there was about 20 kg difference between us. It all worked good. These sails were advanced for the time for sure. But they were available. Sails are not covering a greater wind range today, what they do tend to do is allow you to use a big sail in MORE wind but they generally lose out at the bottom end. The imco rig was never great, there were far superior rigs thoughout the imco period in my view.

Is winging going to be a short-lived fad? As a windsurfer, I am jealous of winging's light wind capability. They are selling electric booster motors to stick on a winging mast to get them going in even less wind. Great idea! Not that good for me because of the mainly shallow water I use. Same with wind foiling. I could do it on high tide, but I'm stuck in my ways and having too much fun on a fin.
Talking to a shop owner the other day and he said everything is winging now. Hardly any kite or windsurf sales. Almost no SUP sales.
Will winging be as long lived as windsurfing or kiting??? Or will these electric foil surf boards get cheaper and take over and you don't need any wind at all? It's strange they haven't taken off. I know 15 grand looks pricey, but we all have that in windsurf or kite kit. I wonder where all this will go. I know people don't want to put in the miles, they want instant gratification, so those electric surfboards seem like a good idea. I'm happy to stay with a fin, could pull my cork out and use my foil more

Select to expand quote

Phil, you keep on talking about what you want and like, but the windsurfing world isn't all about you. The fact that you personally like or dislike a particular style of sailing is completely irrelevant, just as the fact that I personally like or dislike a particular style of sailing is irrelevant. The fact that Phil UK happens to want to put stuff inside his van and do things like that is completely irrelevant to the wider world of the sport.

The point is that sailmakers still tell us we need as many sails as ever (or more) and that competitors and many other people still use as many sails as ever, therefore there is no evidence that sail ranges are increasing. Yes, they dropped the slalom wind limit but there have been other changes (like people using more boards) that probably compensates for that.

No, I haven't just looked at press releases about slalom over time - I've even been top 20 in the world titles eons ago. I know what sail quivers used to be like and I know that they are now as big or bigger even considering the change in wind limits.

No, I am not just looking at slalom sails - look at other types and there is no hard evidence that ranges have actually increased year after year as many people claim. You use about four sails to get across a fairly limited wind range in 2024, how many do you think you would have used in 1994? If you were sailing then, did you have 12 sails for that wind range? Eight sails?

Unless you had a significantly higher number of sails for the same wind range in 1994 than you do in 2024, then the wind range of sails has not increased significantly in the intervening period. That's very simple.

No, I don't believe what the brands says in the brochures and no reasonable person would think I do since I never said or implied any such thing. The issue is that the industry and others have claimed time and time and time again that wind range is getting better and they also still claim in their brochures that we need as many sails as ever, or more.

The idea that it's better to have fewer sails with a wider range to avoid getting caught out with the wrong gear is widespread in boats and in boards like Raceboards. No I did not say that someone who chooses a 7 will be in a better position if the wind drops and there is no reaso for you to imply that I did.

Not a single thing I ever wrote indicated that I believed what the brochures said and the point was that the hype in the brochures and other places is not consistent with the facts as they appear to be. If wind ranges had been getting wider for year upon year as some claim, then top sailors and leisure sailors would now have fewer sails and that does not seem to be the case. That is pretty damn simple.

Yes, I have seen the uptake of winging of course. Many people say they do it because although it's slower than windfoiling, it is simpler. So why not learn that lesson and consider how mainstream windsurfing can make itself simpler by compromising on some aspects of top-end speed in order to reduce the amount of kit required, instead of the current practise of creating windsurfer sails with a narrow wind range ? Why not learn from winging instead of watching other sports, and other types of windsurfer, grow while normal fin windsurfing declines?

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Imax1 said..
I know 15 grand looks pricey, but we all have that in windsurf or kite kit.

Geez, I don't have 15 grand of windsurf kit and I don't know many people who do. The fact that we seem to expect people to put that sort of money into the sport could be a classic example of why the sport is not doing well.

Looking at the other sports I do, the typical weekend warrior wouldn't have $15k of bikes (yes, I know some do but they are not typical) and the typical sailor in the most popular small boat classes doesn't have $15 k of kit. I don't know of many surfers, rock climbers, skaters, skiers or SUPpers with $15k of kit.

Simplifying gear and reducing costs so we don't expect all windsurfers to have that sort of money in their kit is a pretty easy way to create new developments in windsurfing.

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sheddweller said..

Except, current raceboard adjustable downhauls are generally **** and don't work easily or properly, in my view.
A rocker switch on the boom to adjust your downhaul( and outhaul? ) so you don't have to take your hands off would be a significant performance advantage on a raceboard
And while we are at it. The daggerboard adjustment on a raceboard is also **** as is mast track positioning. Changing these 4 adjustments to systems that were easier to use would make raceboard far more enjoyable. Finding a way to do it cheaply and simply would be the holy grail!

Yep, the Raceboard adjusters I used weren't great, but $800 AUD for one adjustment is the sort of expense that is making our sport one that is too expensive for many people. The average Aussie spends about $1300 per year on their sport, so for most people that's a very big hit for a pretty small difference.

I completely agree with your remarks about sail wind ranges.

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Chris 249 said..

Phil, you keep on talking about what you want and like, but the windsurfing world isn't all about you. The fact that you personally like or dislike a particular style of sailing is completely irrelevant, just as the fact that I personally like or dislike a particular style of sailing is irrelevant. The fact that Phil UK happens to want to put stuff inside his van and do things like that is completely irrelevant to the wider world of the sport.

Lots of people dont want to carry around longboards, hence the wing/kite/shortboard kit.

The point is that sailmakers still tell us we need as many sails as ever (or more) and that competitors and many other people still use as many sails as ever, therefore there is no evidence that sail ranges are increasing. Yes, they dropped the slalom wind limit but there have been other changes (like people using more boards) that probably compensates for that.

Sail makers can say what they want. I've always had around 6 sails for years. The range of each sail has increased so I dont have to change so often during a session. I could get away with fewer sails in my quiver, but why would I want to?
PWA slalom is supposed to be exciting sailing at top speed. Not just who can get around the course on a small sail. You dont put 1000cc diesel engine in a F1 car. Sails are the power.

No, I haven't just looked at press releases about slalom over time - I've even been top 20 in the world titles eons ago. I know what sail quivers used to be like and I know that they are now as big or bigger even considering the change in wind limits.

I havent been in the top 20 of anything, except GPS Speedsurfing evaluated 1 hour one year, 7th. Thats sailing for an hour once a month. Guess what, if the sail doesnt have a decent range then your knackered.

No, I am not just looking at slalom sails - look at other types and there is no hard evidence that ranges have actually increased year after year as many people claim. You use about four sails to get across a fairly limited wind range in 2024, how many do you think you would have used in 1994? If you were sailing then, did you have 12 sails for that wind range? Eight sails?

You keep banging on about PWA slalom all the time as the basis for you saying the wind range of sails hasnt changed. There used to be course racing and high wind slalom. 3 sails for slalom I think you said. When they had super-x they had 4 sails 2 boards, the slalom 42 format. High wind slalom-x this year was 2 boards and 3 sails.
I started in 1990. In 1994 probably 4, 4,5, 5,0, 5.7 and 6.5. I needed more wind to sail than I do these days. Later I added larger and larger sails and they mostly had poor wind range to start. Good lower end, poor top end. But they have got better.

Unless you had a significantly higher number of sails for the same wind range in 1994 than you do in 2024, then the wind range of sails has not increased significantly in the intervening period. That's very simple.
Its not as simple as that. The range of each sail has increased so I dont have to change so often during a session, as I have mentioned before which you choose to ignore.

No, I don't believe what the brands says in the brochures and no reasonable person would think I do since I never said or implied any such thing. The issue is that the industry and others have claimed time and time and time again that wind range is getting better and they also still claim in their brochures that we need as many sails as ever, or more.
So the brochures are being more realistic, perhaps.

The idea that it's better to have fewer sails with a wider range to avoid getting caught out with the wrong gear is widespread in boats and in boards like Raceboards. No I did not say that someone who chooses a 7 will be in a better position if the wind drops and there is no reaso for you to imply that I did.
Chances are the wind could increase or decrease. I could have 5 sails in my quiver, but with 6 that would allow a far better chance of getting the right board/sail combo for the conditions. If I just sailed in a lake or somewhere with consistent conditions I could get away with 1 less board and sail. I dont race, so I dont want a longer boom downhauled to death sail to blast and gybe around on. Neither do I want an under downhauled tight leech sail when the wind drops which wont handle the gusts so well. I want a rig and forget sail which copes with a wide range of wind without touching settings.

Not a single thing I ever wrote indicated that I believed what the brochures said and the point was that the hype in the brochures and other places is not consistent with the facts as they appear to be. If wind ranges had been getting wider for year upon year as some claim, then top sailors and leisure sailors would now have fewer sails and that does not seem to be the case. That is pretty damn simple.
The range of each sail has increased so I dont have to change so often during a session, as I have mentioned before which you choose to ignore.

Yes, I have seen the uptake of winging of course. Many people say they do it because although it's slower than windfoiling, it is simpler. So why not learn that lesson and consider how mainstream windsurfing can make itself simpler by compromising on some aspects of top-end speed in order to reduce the amount of kit required, instead of the current practise of creating windsurfer sails with a narrow wind range ? Why not learn from winging instead of watching other sports, and other types of windsurfer, grow while normal fin windsurfing declines?
The people I know who wing have said you can get out more often in light winds without having large sails as you do in fin windsurfing. Same for some on windfoil, but everyone has said more fun in light winds with a smaller sail than fin.

I'm done here.

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Chris 249 said..

Imax1 said..
I know 15 grand looks pricey, but we all have that in windsurf or kite kit.

Geez, I don't have 15 grand of windsurf kit and I don't know many people who do. The fact that we seem to expect people to put that sort of money into the sport could be a classic example of why the sport is not doing well.

Looking at the other sports I do, the typical weekend warrior wouldn't have $15k of bikes (yes, I know some do but they are not typical) and the typical sailor in the most popular small boat classes doesn't have $15 k of kit. I don't know of many surfers, rock climbers, skaters, skiers or SUPpers with $15k of kit.

Simplifying gear and reducing costs so we don't expect all windsurfers to have that sort of money in their kit is a pretty easy way to create new developments in windsurfing.

I'm talking new price. Everyone I sail with has at least three boards ,three sails a couple masts , booms and a load of other stuff. That's at least $15 k of kit. The average windsurfer has probably accumulated more , some much more. Of course you can buy second hand or get for free even. I don't expect anyone to put 15 k on new windsurf equipment. There are great second hand deals out there.I was comparing to the 15 k cost of a new electric foil board. Second hand they would also be cheaper. It's easy to be totally happy on a $150 curb side special.
Why are you comparing windsurfing to surfers , skaters or rock climbers ? Why not compare to motorcycle riders , jet skiers or any other sailing craft ?
The LT has made it as cheap and simple as I think it can get , new. And for that , it is so popular. So it's not all bad. We are our own worst enemy . We are the ones that have to have more and better stuff. Nobody's fault but ours.

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Imax1 said..

Chris 249 said..

Imax1 said..
I know 15 grand looks pricey, but we all have that in windsurf or kite kit.

Geez, I don't have 15 grand of windsurf kit and I don't know many people who do. The fact that we seem to expect people to put that sort of money into the sport could be a classic example of why the sport is not doing well.

Looking at the other sports I do, the typical weekend warrior wouldn't have $15k of bikes (yes, I know some do but they are not typical) and the typical sailor in the most popular small boat classes doesn't have $15 k of kit. I don't know of many surfers, rock climbers, skaters, skiers or SUPpers with $15k of kit.

Simplifying gear and reducing costs so we don't expect all windsurfers to have that sort of money in their kit is a pretty easy way to create new developments in windsurfing.

I'm talking new price. Everyone I sail with has at least three boards ,three sails a couple masts , booms and a load of other stuff. That's at least $15 k of kit. The average windsurfer has probably accumulated more , some much more. Of course you can buy second hand or get for free even. I don't expect anyone to put 15 k on new windsurf equipment. There are great second hand deals out there.I was comparing to the 15 k cost of a new electric foil board. Second hand they would also be cheaper. It's easy to be totally happy on a $150 curb side special.
Why are you comparing windsurfing to surfers , skaters or rock climbers ? Why not compare to motorcycle riders , jet skiers or any other sailing craft ?
The LT has made it as cheap and simple as I think it can get , new. And for that , it is so popular. So it's not all bad. We are our own worst enemy . We are the ones that have to have more and better stuff. Nobody's fault but ours.

Okay, I didn't realise you were talking original price versus actual purchase price. Stumping up $15k in one hit for a new foilboard is a big jump from buying kit that used to be worth $15k but is now a lot less in bits and pieces over the years.

I compared windsurfing to a bunch of other sports that I know. Motorcycling is different because it's a very big activity (about 80,000 bikes sold per annum in Australia) that therefore has vast financial backing, and it's also a form of transport. That means that very different factors apply than in sports with much smaller budgets, where technical development is driven by different factors. Jet skiing is also backed by the big money of major corporations, and (as people in dinghy sailing found out ages ago) things change dramatically when your sport has billions of dollars behind it. People like Ben Oakley (former windsurfing pro, Olympic coach and now a uni professor) and other academics have written about the way that technological development in a sport like windsurfing is affected by its size and development style, which is very different to the way motorcycling works.

I did compare windsurfing to other small sailing craft. The most popular small sailboat is the Laser, which costs a lot less than $15k new and has strong resale so is pretty easy and cheap to actually own. We can't compare windsurfing to yachts in the same way we can't compare hiking to motor home use.

The point is that windsurfing started out as a simple and fairly cheap sport and is now generally a complicated and quite expensive sport. That's been very well studied and it's accepted as a major problem by people inside and outside the sport. If we can accept that the sport is, and is seen as, too expensive then we can fix that and revive the sport.

The "we" who have to have more and better stuff are a tiny minority of the people who once windsurfed or could windsurf. Things like the amount of gear we think we need aren't absolutes or objective - they are often subjective and heavily influenced by many factors including marketing and how the fairly small number of people left in the sport assess gear. As an example, not that long ago people on forums derided the idea that longboards could ever be popular again. It was said that no retailers could physically stock a 12 foot board, that no one wanted to put them on their cars, and no one wanted to get on a board unless it was planing - then SUPs came along and proved those claims were complete BS.

The SUPs were followed by the LT, which was created as a response to the cost and complication of most modern windsurfing. Its success is another indicator that conventional wisdom about windsurfing is often completely wrong and that when we try to solve the cost and complication issue, it works. We can change our attitude to needing "more and better" just as the LT has changed the attitude of many people towards their sailing. The success of winging, despite it being slower than kiting and windfoiling, is also significant. The success of SUPs, wings and the LT shows that there is lots of room for other new developments if we widen the way we think of the sport and the way we assess our gear.

The cost of a Laser and trailer , life jacket and other bits you may need is not far off 15 grand.
I believe the reasons behind windsurfing losing it's popularity is because it's not new and exciting and it's a hard thing to learn. It's just not trendy anymore . I don't believe a good performing half cost Dacron sail will revive the sport. Even if windsurf gear was one third of the cost, people will still be paying full price to go winging. Ten years ago there was so much good quality learner friendly second hand gear at a fraction of the cost of new gear. No one looked at it. Kites were trendy.SUPs became popular because they were so easy to use and everyone thought they were going to get fit and have beach bodies. Most SUPs have probably had less than half a dozen uses before their owners got bored of the idea. Now they are just floaty toys for the kids.Most people that still use SUPs passionately are into it in an extreme way. Probably on their third pricey board and using a $1000 paddle.
I don't think windsurfing, kiting or SUPing will ever make a big comeback no matter how cheap. Being nostalgic about the good old days never changes anything back. I don't believe that the LT is bringing a lot of newcomers to the sport. It's just us old windsurfers that want to simplify things like in the good old days or be involved in a group way.

If I had to sail an LT I'd probably not bother, they are that unappealing. I think I've seen one in person while I lived in a very light wind area.

I'd rather be on a proper raceboard, even that I only bring out when I haven't had the wind to wing for weeks and I'm desperate.

I have seen a recent resurgence in people using ancient low performance longboards. But I think that's because they are free/cheap and nobody is going to steal them off your car.

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Looking at the other sports I do, the typical weekend warrior wouldn't have $15k of bikes

You really need to get out more. Look at any bike race, say the various triathlons at most of the major cities. Every carbon race bike starts at $10k, with $15k a typical price. Granted that is a triathlon race bike, and yet there are hell of a lot of people owning carbon race bikes who dont compete.


Also... these are not the same:

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I'm talking new price. Everyone I sail with has at least three boards ,three sails a couple masts , booms and a load of other stuff. That's at least $15 k of kit.

vs

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Stumping up $15k in one hit for a new foilboard is a big jump

... it is pretty easy to have $15k of kit, particularly if you pickup a deal from someone with too much money.

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mathew said..

Looking at the other sports I do, the typical weekend warrior wouldn't have $15k of bikes

You really need to get out more. Look at any bike race, say the various triathlons at most of the major cities. Every carbon race bike starts at $10k, with $15k a typical price. Granted that is a triathlon race bike, and yet there are hell of a lot of people owning carbon race bikes who dont compete.


Also... these are not the same:

Mathew, I'm racing bikes every weekend and have raced in Masters nationals and state titles on time trials, road and cyclocross and spent a couple of years doing track. I own five different bikes that I race, plus one for training on the rollers. I'm not ignorant about cycling and don't have to be told what I need to do.

The tiny minority of cyclists who race are not the average cyclist, and those who own $10-15k bikes are a small proportion of cyclists overall. An article on Bike Radar said that $10k+ "halo bikes" are 2.5% of the market. On Bike Exchange, which sells a significant proportion of expensive bikes, $10k+ bikes make up less than 10% of bikes on sale. So the typical cyclist doesn't ride a bike that cost $10k, new or old.

There are plenty of people who prove that it's not true that "every carbon race bike starts at 10k"; there's lots of new race bikes (ie. Cervelo Soloist) for half that and quite a few people still race alloy because it's the legs that really count.

Where windsurfing seems strange is that when we're out on our time trial bike or Cervelo crit machines we don't get all snarky if someone rides the other way on a K-Mart flat bar, a $2500 touring bike or a $7k dual suspension downhill rig - but in windsurfing it seems that people dislike embracing and enjoying the same sort of diversity in the sport and the gear.

Yes, I found out AFTERWARDS that when Imax said "we all have 15 grand in kit" he meant that we had gear that someone else spent $15k on, but I there was no way of knowing that at the time. It was a simple misunderstanding.

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Grantmac said..
If I had to sail an LT I'd probably not bother, they are that unappealing. I think I've seen one in person while I lived in a very light wind area.

I'd rather be on a proper raceboard, even that I only bring out when I haven't had the wind to wing for weeks and I'm desperate.

And as your personal choice that's fine, and good on you and I hope you keep on enjoying it. But it's only your personal choice, as one individual of the fairly small number of people who still windsurf, so it's not necessarily relevant to the question about whether new directions are possible.

I find the zig zagging that most people do when windsurfing is boring as bat****, but that's also only my own personal preference and therefore irrelevant to the wider issues. I can see why others love it and that's fantastic. What you or I like individually is completely irrelevant to many wider issues.

By the way, I haven't said in this thread that the LT is the "new windsurfing development" so I don't know why some people seem to be assuming I did. I've tried not to bring it up, apart from the fact that it is proof that the conventional wisdom on windsurfing forums can be completely and utterly wrong.