Racing cycles ! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm. The spandex type of cycle racing ? mmmmmmmmmmm.

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Chris 249 said..

Where windsurfing seems strange is that when we're out on our time trial bike or Cervelo crit machines we don't get all snarky if someone rides the other way on a K-Mart flat bar, a $2500 touring bike or a $7k dual suspension downhill rig - but in windsurfing it seems that people dislike embracing and enjoying the same sort of diversity in the sport and the gear.

Really? I used to ride/race too, and there was definitely a degree of elitism. It wasn't everywhere, but we used to get the odd chump join our group rides on a pinnarello or similar who'd talk themselves and their bike up.

i actually found windsurfing quite the opposite, nobody gives two hoots about what gear you're on. Everyones out to enjoy themselves. Sure there are people who like to spend money on the gear, but no one says disparaging things to someone else because they aren't on the latest and greatest. Maybe its a different story on the East coast?

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PhilUK said..

Chris 249 said..

PWA sailors these days are allowed seven sails, which is actually more than pros used 40 years ago. That cannot be happening if sail ranges are increasing.

3 sails for slalom-x and 4 for foil doesnt make 7 sails total.
They are separate disciplines.

Of course everyone could sail a LT & 1 sail, but everyone could ride a Harley Davidson if they wanted

Hey , it can be fun riding a Harley Davidson. It's like sailing a filing cabinet. So much fun. I used to love being on the back of my old IMCO , planing in the straps with a quarter of a mile of board sticking out the front. Like windsurfing a runaway freight train. Huge grin.
Some motorcycling people I knew , (4), bought crappy postie bikes and did an Aires Rock ride and back from Melbourne. The best road bike trip ever , they said . On clapped out postie bikes ! I get it.

Geeze, what a go nowhere thread... spend some coin and put some wind behind it. Who really gives a ratz how you get your kicks. Recently down sized my quiver from fin and foil to just foil and somehow it remains almost as large. At least I don't wear Lycra
The best way to invigorate your wind thing is to forget about what is the in thing is and find what works for you.
At my local one wind addict uses the smallest wing possible to foil upwind catches some swell and drops his wing to foil some bumps downwind only to use a foil foildrive with tiny battery to putt upwind back to his wing...and repeat. His smile is as big as most others on the water. If an LT or antique 90's raceboard gives you the same stoke happy days.
BUT trying to reinvent windsurfing to something better is not going to happen as you cannot improve perfection

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Subsonic said..

Chris 249 said..

Where windsurfing seems strange is that when we're out on our time trial bike or Cervelo crit machines we don't get all snarky if someone rides the other way on a K-Mart flat bar, a $2500 touring bike or a $7k dual suspension downhill rig - but in windsurfing it seems that people dislike embracing and enjoying the same sort of diversity in the sport and the gear.

Really? I used to ride/race too, and there was definitely a degree of elitism. It wasn't everywhere, but we used to get the odd chump join our group rides on a pinnarello or similar who'd talk themselves and their bike up.

i actually found windsurfing quite the opposite, nobody gives two hoots about what gear you're on. Everyones out to enjoy themselves. Sure there are people who like to spend money on the gear, but no one says disparaging things to someone else because they aren't on the latest and greatest. Maybe its a different story on the East coast?

Sure, there's some elitism - but in my experience it's pretty rare among racers and from your comment it seems like that was your experience too. Yep, some cafe riders can get snobby but in my experience among the racers everyone appreciates good gear but very rarely disses the older stuff, because they know that what really counts is the rider and that the finish line will reveal the truth*. I started racing on low-level alloy bike where the good bits were Sora, and never had any adverse comments. I did have one guy make a comment about the age of my ancient alloy TT bike the other day before a race, but I don't think it was meant to be snarky.

I don't think there's a lot of elitism about the quality of gear in windsurfing (although in my experience there is more than among racing cyclists) but there is a fair bit about the style of the gear and the type of sailing, and that's been the case for eons. My comment was about the fact that in general in my experience, people who race top carbon roadies etc don't diss those who ride around on flat bars or touring bikes or race cheap bikes, whereas in windsurfing plenty of people take pains to make it quite clear that they don't personally like certain sorts of boards, as if there was some deeper significance in that.

* in my case I'm just returning to racing and the truth is that I'm now slow. :-(

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Mr Keen said..
At least I don't wear Lycra

Middle aged men in wetties don't look any better than in lycra! :-)

I'm sure speed sailors around oz are wearing $15k worth of speed spandex and i'm not so i cant go as fast as them, yet..

A time will come again when windsurfing will have a popularity boom, or at least a development in skills, a style advancement boom.
The gear means diddly squat. Motocross bikes for example haven't really changed alot, but the style of riding them has. Front flips were not thought about on a bike not so long ago.
Or skateboards, still just a deck and wheels, but the style of riding has been through massive advancements beyond what they could have imaged years ago.
I think windsurfing still has riding style advancements yet to come.
You can't imagine what they'll be, because they are not here yet.
Maybe windsurfing fishing, or ocean expedition. We dont know yet. Just like we didn't know until relatively recently what kinds of waves could be ridden on a surfboard, ie Shipsterns, Teahpoo, Solander.

I , personally , identify fabulously in a wetsuit.

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Imax1 said..

PhilUK said..

Chris 249 said..

PWA sailors these days are allowed seven sails, which is actually more than pros used 40 years ago. That cannot be happening if sail ranges are increasing.

3 sails for slalom-x and 4 for foil doesnt make 7 sails total.
They are separate disciplines.

Of course everyone could sail a LT & 1 sail, but everyone could ride a Harley Davidson if they wanted

Hey , it can be fun riding a Harley Davidson. It's like sailing a filing cabinet. So much fun. I used to love being on the back of my old IMCO , planing in the straps with a quarter of a mile of board sticking out the front. Like windsurfing a runaway freight train. Huge grin.
Some motorcycling people I knew , (4), bought crappy postie bikes and did an Aires Rock ride and back from Melbourne. The best road bike trip ever , they said . On clapped out postie bikes ! I get it.

Cripes. I used to be a postie. That would be a slow bumpy trip..

Im a middle aged man and i get paid to wear spandex..

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Mr Keen said..
Geeze, what a go nowhere thread... spend some coin and put some wind behind it. Who really gives a ratz how you get your kicks. Recently down sized my quiver from fin and foil to just foil and somehow it remains almost as large. At least I don't wear Lycra
The best way to invigorate your wind thing is to forget about what is the in thing is and find what works for you.
At my local one wind addict uses the smallest wing possible to foil upwind catches some swell and drops his wing to foil some bumps downwind only to use a foil foildrive with tiny battery to putt upwind back to his wing...and repeat. His smile is as big as most others on the water. If an LT or antique 90's raceboard gives you the same stoke happy days.
BUT trying to reinvent windsurfing to something better is not going to happen as you cannot improve perfection

I think this kind of thread is a bit of a seasonal thing, especially east coast oz, people champing at the bit at the end of a long winter.

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duzzi said..
After witnessing the winging onslaught in the San Francisco Bay Area I have started to wonder if it might be possible to imporve our beloved "fins". What I think is good about winging is its free-ride appeal. It is slow, but it is also easy and it has a large wind range. It would seem that windsurf development got stuck somehow into high performance ... great, fast, extreme but still with limited range and very hard to handle. Is there something that can be done bring in some new ground braking development?

Maybe fins? Almost by chance I have been playing with very large fins set up with my FSW 90. 25 + 11 sides. with 5.4. That is quite massive at my weight but I am surprised by the increased uptake in upwind and low end. I loose about 1 knot of top speed, but my range of use is larger.

So, retractable fins? Dagger boards are retractable, is there a way to have fin boxes that do the same? Maybe just for the sides?

Hybrid foil-fins? Yes, they disappeared quick, but that might be because they did not show any advantage in racing conditions. Could they work as freeride range extender devices?

Board shapes? A modern 95 can handle the same wind of on old (say pre-2010) 85. Is there something more to do. Shorter, longer, wider in the tail ... whatever! Or shape shifting? Is it so hard to make a board tail that can change shape while sailing?

OR SOMETHING ELSE. I am no engineer. ANYTHING to make windsurfing EASIER AND RANGIER?

The variety of windsurfing gear is still huge. Each manufacturer has multiple wave, free wave, free style, free ride, free race, slalom speed and OD boards and sails with a bewildering combinations of rockers, concaves, rail shapes, width, length, fins and centre boards for boards and shapes, aspect ratio, battens, cambers / no cambers, leach and materials for sails.

Extending low wind range requires either wider boards / longer fins / larger sails or longer boards. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Extending range for one board / fin / sail is a function of design. Adjustable downhaul and outhaul increases the range of a sail. Rocker, concaves, bevelled rails and raked fins increase the range of a board of a given width and volume. There are compromises in terms of speed and agility associated with these design choices, but if you just want to mow the lawn, they still work.

There is still a lower wind limit associated with any design. At 88 kgs my 115 litre slalom board with 7.8m sail is about 13 kts. I can still use this gear in up to 20kts. Each of my 3 board / sail quivers have about a 8 knot range eg
115/7.8 13 to 20
97/7 16 to 23
80/6.2 20 to 27

I could increase this range with a 137/9 combo but I just don't enjoy using this gear. I prefer to Windfoil.

If you think of windfoiling and winging as an extension of windsurfing then these are the design development you are looking for. If it's not your thing then continue to enjoy your finning. I just don't think there is a silver bullet that will make windsurfing more accessible.

In the late 90s I started windsurfing. In the early 2000s I started playing squash. A few months ago I started winging. Since winging lost the new-kid-on-the-block badge to downwind foiling, I can only infer I just like sports that are in decline. Nothing wrong with it as long as I can find some gear (new and used) and few people joining the sport every summer.

One development towards less gear is the "Dynamic Windsurfing" board and sail.
Perhaps useful for real beginners, but I doubt any proficient windsurfers will accept the compromises that are being made.

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SurferKris said..
One development towards less gear is the "Dynamic Windsurfing" board and sail.
Perhaps useful for real beginners, but I doubt any proficient windsurfers will accept the compromises that are being made.

That's pretty cool, never seen that one! Yeah, obvious compromise in some shape and weight, but if done right that seems like it could get a lot of use. Shame it didn't take off?

I just imagined, however, one manufacturer making several generations of this and calling them slightly different names without compatibility between generations by changing how they fit together and screwing it all up. Just like they did with some foil/fuse/mast updates...

The question was "are new windsurfing developments possible?"

The answer is Hell Yes.

If you look at development over the last 20 years, theres been a few.

Pro's:
More carbon, less breakages. 20 years ago everything was super light but it broke very quickly, now if still pretty light but more importantly tough.
Power XT extension, makes rigging easier, more precise and easier to adjust even on the water.
Slalom gear is still fast, but easily better in choppier conditions to use.
Freeride boards are much easier to use in crappy conditions.
Sails are lighter and nicer to use.

Cons:
Wave boards are much more critical in the conditions that you use them in. 30 years ago they were just wave boards, now some are better in DTL and some are better in Onshore etc.
Masts are heavier, but they last 10 years longer.
Slalom sails only really suit slalom boards, but thats what they are supposed to support.
European sailors are better wave sailors than just Hawaiian sailors, well, they train in Hawaii more now so anyone can be really.
Everything doesn't even touch the water any more...........??????????

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SurferKris said..
One development towards less gear is the "Dynamic Windsurfing" board and sail.
Perhaps useful for real beginners, but I doubt any proficient windsurfers will accept the compromises that are being made.

What a great idea! I've often joked about sails and boards morphing to the conditions.
Should be great for learners/ intermediates and people who don't want heaps of gear.
I think this is a great ' advance ' if you want to lure people back. It just needs to get known.

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SurferKris said..
One development towards less gear is the "Dynamic Windsurfing" board and sail.
Perhaps useful for real beginners, but I doubt any proficient windsurfers will accept the compromises that are being made.

Ah! that is interesting, I remember the Mistral but I have not seen this new version ... if one can make a version where you can use a pump to widen the board, instead of having to bolt pieces on, it might get close to a morph-board. It would require a partially hollow board, to house the inflatable thingy, but all you need is a 10-20L variation.

Question was "ANYTHING to make windsurfing EASIER AND RANGIER?"
After 50 years of experts doing just that looks like not much. They've pushed the 'extremes' in speed, waves and freestyle but they've also tried to get newbies involved.
Everything has limits; they made better stagecoaches but we all use cars, planes and trains.

Yeah, I'd like a foot strap that doesn't break your toe while trying to put it in!
Bloody Friday the 13th.
4 to 6 weeks , no way ! Gaffa Tape .

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patronus said..
Question was "ANYTHING to make windsurfing EASIER AND RANGIER?"
After 50 years of experts doing just that looks like not much. They've pushed the 'extremes' in speed, waves and freestyle but they've also tried to get newbies involved.
Everything has limits; they made better stagecoaches but we all use cars, planes and trains.

Yes not many ideas pop up in this thread. But the morph Dynamic Windsurfing board does add range. If it was easier to set up (that's why I was mumbling about a pneumatic system to make it wider or less so) it might be worth something. The other idea that pop up is to put in an electric assist. There are many available, ranging from less powerful assists attached to your foil mast, to full blown motorized surf boards jetsurfusa.com/products/jetsurf-electric-2?srsltid=AfmBOorXY-B5Q3G1-V1YMYaNcksG9vzO_tW3f571E3R-fRQqftjH0aGh ... I am not completely sure what they would be good for (there is the apparent wind problem to contend with) but maybe in the 0 to 12 knots range they can serve a purpose ...

I comeback to windsurf after 20+ years stop. Average freerider. I find that windsurfing is easier today, i can easily rig a bigger sail in a bigger wind range. As a hobby surfboard shaper (for 30 years) i build my boards and try some, at my low level, for light variable wind on my lake, i find that longer stretched boards have more range and more fun for me especially in lulls, those boards glide faster, go up wind waiting wind flurry and take planning passively. At low level those on techno 293 with daggerboard seems to enjoy more than those with short wide lower volume boards pushed by wind at bottom of the lake.

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lemat said..
I comeback to windsurf after 20+ years stop. Average freerider. I find that windsurfing is easier today, i can easily rig a bigger sail in a bigger wind range. As a hobby surfboard shaper (for 30 years) i build my boards and try some, at my low level, for light variable wind on my lake, i find that longer stretched boards have more range and more fun for me especially in lulls, those boards glide faster, go up wind waiting wind flurry and take planning passively. At low level those on techno 293 with daggerboard seems to enjoy more than those with short wide lower volume boards pushed by wind at bottom of the lake.

Absolutely, longer flatter shapes are better than shorter wider. Especially if you're on the heavy side. Wider is better if you want to turn fast. Litre for litre. Most average freeriders don't want to turn. When it comes to turning around at the end of a run , a slightly longer board does the job just fine and it's easier to do fast tacks. Longer boards definitely go upwind better but are a bit slower. But because you can go upwind better it gives you more scope of firing downwind. For me , longer and narrower, as long as it fits in the car.

Wow what a topic! Generated some real passion. Off course there's more innovation to come. Don't think this blog has got there in identifying the next step. But have loved the zing in the chat. Don't write off windsurfing yet. Coronation beach this summer will show that.

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cjhk2468 said..
Wow what a topic! Generated some real passion. Off course there's more innovation to come. Don't think this blog has got there in identifying the next step. But have loved the zing in the chat. Don't write off windsurfing yet. Coronation beach this summer will show that.

Chatbot?

I still feel there has to be a middle point between foiling and fin.
i am going to embark on some real r and d and see if i can't design a fin with a front adjustable stabilising foil for easy light wind fun and planning. I realise many feel it isn't worth it or can't be done but if it can, I'm wanting to make it happen.
i have the killer man cave including 2 x 8 axis dual spindle cnc lathes and 2 x 3 axis cnc mills so making parts for the test phase will be a walk in the park.
I plan to start with some rear carbon foil wings and off the shelf fins. And I'll let you all know how I am going. It should take me a few months and I am hoping that by December, I can start some testing as I have 3 weeks on the beach and plenty of time to try and track every stage.

Years ago I played with the idea. Had a decent sized sideways foil on a strong big fin. In the quest of earlier planing. It was even adjustable. It seemed to slightly help in freshwater to the point of being able to start planing as if it was saltwater. It didn't help in Saltwater. Mabee the difference in water density. More likely my density and imagination. The reason I stopped experimenting was because when getting up to good speed ,it started foiling in a bad crashing way. But you should experiment, with pics . Ps, old formula fins are a cheap solid fin to mount things to.

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BeesNeez said..
I still feel there has to be a middle point between foiling and fin.
i am going to embark on some real r and d and see if i can't design a fin with a front adjustable stabilising foil for easy light wind fun and planning. I realise many feel it isn't worth it or can't be done but if it can, I'm wanting to make it happen.
i have the killer man cave including 2 x 8 axis dual spindle cnc lathes and 2 x 3 axis cnc mills so making parts for the test phase will be a walk in the park.
I plan to start with some rear carbon foil wings and off the shelf fins. And I'll let you all know how I am going. It should take me a few months and I am hoping that by December, I can start some testing as I have 3 weeks on the beach and plenty of time to try and track every stage.

Yes! those were around at the beginning of the foil development but then disappeared. You can actually still buy one on e-bay. (It seems to have a sort of ... "erection" problem?) Would be great to see where one can go with the idea.



Here's the ebay link (USA) www.ebay.com/itm/294044698837?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28&srsltid=AfmBOopy-QpdYExWIGxYcjXV7FFWcdKqe2Mx1z5ALZ0UgnKSzbJs5lwJtEE

The problem with the idea is that you are effectively foiling with a really short mast so you will constantly battle with ventilation issues and breaching

This is like watching tech bros constantly reinvent trains/busses