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BeesNeez said..
I still feel there has to be a middle point between foiling and fin.

Formula windsurfing is just that. The long and soft fin will create a lot of lift and you fly on the fin with as little as possible of the board touching the water. It is then possible to have the board flying over and out of the water for short distances.

Yeah, I'm not sure where this can go. I don't know about mini foils . Ive used a huge 70 cm formula fin on a free ride board for earlier planing. It kind of worked until a bit of speed started. You need a super wide board to push against a super long fin. And the skill to hold it there on the balance point. Possibly multiple fins ? But then your fighting drag.
I'm impressed with the Fangy style of fin , short , fat and filleted. Producing a huge unprecedented amount of grip for the size. The problem when using this kind of fin on a very wide board is , when cranking the board over hard jybing, the fin is out of the water and not doing anything.So possibly two small Fangy style fins on a wide board ? I saw here a while ago , a guy was happily using three small delta style fins on a formula board , with a huge sail. It was a shallow water situation. He could have used two Fangys and got more grip. I've unashamedly copied and made an upright version of this fin and it works so well for me , that I don't use normal fins anymore. 30 cm and 27 cm . Thinking of a 25 cm. I think exploring this kind of fin is where progress can be had. I know there is a lot of Fangy development happening for the go fast weedy guys , but what about the non weed average people on normal boards ?

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SurferKris said..

BeesNeez said..
I still feel there has to be a middle point between foiling and fin.

Formula windsurfing is just that. The long and soft fin will create a lot of lift and you fly on the fin with as little as possible of the board touching the water. It is then possible to have the board flying over and out of the water for short distances.

This but more specifically for us non-pro's -> a shorter fin at 45-50cm and smaller sails at 7.5-9m. This gives you 9-10kn as your low-wind threshold (vs a 10m + 70cm of a 7kn threashold), no whitecaps for smooth gliding.

In that wind range of 10-13kn, it often isn't gusty. But even if it is, the sailing is a really pleasant experience.

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Mr Milk said..
You think it's easier to wingfoil than to ride a sailboard? It certainly doesn't look easier.
My local sailing buddy took it up last season and tells me that it requires constant brain engagement, much more than windsurfing does where we sail. That's Huskisson on Jervis Bay, where the chop gets pretty big.

As a very average windsurfer and a very new windfoiler & wingfoiler, yes, winging is much easier. After slightly less than 10 hours on the wing I was able to gybe without falling in or coming off the foil (once).

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mathew said..

SurferKris said..

BeesNeez said..
I still feel there has to be a middle point between foiling and fin.

Formula windsurfing is just that. The long and soft fin will create a lot of lift and you fly on the fin with as little as possible of the board touching the water. It is then possible to have the board flying over and out of the water for short distances.

This but more specifically for us non-pro's -> a shorter fin at 45-50cm and smaller sails at 7.5-9m. This gives you 9-10kn as your low-wind threshold (vs a 10m + 70cm of a 7kn threashold), no whitecaps for smooth gliding.

In that wind range of 10-13kn, it often isn't gusty. But even if it is, the sailing is a really pleasant experience.

This is what my brother has been doing at Jimmy's beach nsw for 25 years now.

Yep, smooth pleasant sailing.

Ive just joined him the last few.
The big gear suits the location.
70-80kg riders.
8.5 sail gets used about 90% of the 100-150 sessions per sea breeze season.

JP SLW 92cm board. Also a formula board. If there's not wind enough for that, there's not really wind. So I haven't bothered getting bigger rigs.

Smaller boards, or fins less than 45cm, don't get used much here due to wind shadows from dunes on the flatwater.

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mr love said..
The problem with the idea is that you are effectively foiling with a really short mast so you will constantly battle with ventilation issues and breaching

What I have not seen done is a a tri-fin set up. Taking the hint from curved side foils, but putting two small ones in the back, to the side of the main fin. A foiling tri-fin, with small foiling side. Small, curved, 12-15 inches foil blades promoting lift.

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mathew said..

SurferKris said..

BeesNeez said..
I still feel there has to be a middle point between foiling and fin.

Formula windsurfing is just that. The long and soft fin will create a lot of lift and you fly on the fin with as little as possible of the board touching the water. It is then possible to have the board flying over and out of the water for short distances.

This but more specifically for us non-pro's -> a shorter fin at 45-50cm and smaller sails at 7.5-9m. This gives you 9-10kn as your low-wind threshold (vs a 10m + 70cm of a 7kn threashold), no whitecaps for smooth gliding.

In that wind range of 10-13kn, it often isn't gusty. But even if it is, the sailing is a really pleasant experience.

10-13knots on the 9.4 and ultrasonic with a 55cm fin is a perfect day out.

Yesterday i rigged up my big sail at about 5pm to catch the last of the seabreeze.

A 6.7m Aerotech speed sail that has 9 battens and 6 cams that i put on my 100 litre Tabou Speedster and a 33 Tribal Weedspeed. Sail weighs only 5.2kgs despite all the battens and cams.

Wind had dropped to 10 to 17 knots.

Rigged it with max negative outhaul and moderate downhaul and sailed for close to another hour nearly till dark rarely coming off the plane.

A 9.4 or even a 7.8 for myself equals no fun. A smaller sail rigged full will plane nearly as good.

Diminishing returns when you go bigger and bigger unless you have a really wide board to support the weight.

I mostly use 87 and 100 boards these days.

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Pcdefender said..
A 9.4 or even a 7.8 for myself equals no fun. A smaller sail rigged full will plane nearly as good.
Diminishing returns when you go bigger and bigger unless you have a really wide board to support the weight.

Well, yes, sail-size, board-size/width and fin-size go hand in hand. I'm about 65kg and for me a sail-size of about 11.0 is my upper limit for "easy sailing" on the Formula. I used to use an 11.7 sail but it was quite a lot of work (when not on the plane), so now I'm using a 10.7 as my largest sail on the Formula.

The width of the Formula board means that one is standing further away from the rig and it makes the sail feel "smaller" compared to the same sail-size on a smaller slalom board. So a 8.6 sail on a Formula board is actually less physical compared to e.g. a 7.8 sail on a 100 litre slalom board, in the same lower wind conditions. The Formula will also glide much better through lulls and have better angles to the wind, so overall a much better day on the water, in my world.

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SurferKris said..

Pcdefender said..
A 9.4 or even a 7.8 for myself equals no fun. A smaller sail rigged full will plane nearly as good.
Diminishing returns when you go bigger and bigger unless you have a really wide board to support the weight.

Well, yes, sail-size, board-size/width and fin-size go hand in hand. I'm about 65kg and for me a sail-size of about 11.0 is my upper limit for "easy sailing" on the Formula. I used to use an 11.7 sail but it was quite a lot of work (when not on the plane), so now I'm using a 10.7 as my largest sail on the Formula.

The width of the Formula board means that one is standing further away from the rig and it makes the sail feel "smaller" compared to the same sail-size on a smaller slalom board. So a 8.6 sail on a Formula board is actually less physical compared to e.g. a 7.8 sail on a 100 litre slalom board, in the same lower wind conditions. The Formula will also glide much better through lulls and have better angles to the wind, so overall a much better day on the water, in my world.

Well ... sure ... Formula is great if you like 9-11 square meters sail. But it is very old news, about 20 years actually. "We" are trying to see if there are new development at the horizon. Unless I am missing something I can only count: (1) electric motor assist, and (2) hybrid fin/foil, maybe in a three fin set up, and (3) an evolution of morph boards. Anything else NEW?

Add those new ratchet mast extensions to the new ace thing. They make me happy
Two things I would like to see improved . 1 , is board durability . In today's day and age , you
would have thought they could make boards tough and light , like they did years ago and ,2, a better universal fin box system. I think a 2 bolt Tuttle with side angles like aPB.

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duzzi said..
"We" are trying to see if there are new development at the horizon. Unless I am missing something I can only count: (1) electric motor assist, and (2) hybrid fin/foil, maybe in a three fin set up, and (3) an evolution of morph boards. Anything else NEW?

The question is then how new and different it can be, while still being considered as windsurfing?

Windsurfing evolved into Formula and then into foiling. Few considers foiling to be "windsurfing" and some would not even consider Formula as windsurfing...

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SurferKris said..

duzzi said..
"We" are trying to see if there are new development at the horizon. Unless I am missing something I can only count: (1) electric motor assist, and (2) hybrid fin/foil, maybe in a three fin set up, and (3) an evolution of morph boards. Anything else NEW?

The question is then how new and different it can be, while still being considered as windsurfing?

Windsurfing evolved into Formula and then into foiling. Few considers foiling to be "windsurfing" and some would not even consider Formula as windsurfing...

Well ... let's see if there any NEW developments for what looks like a windsurf (central main fin, mast attached to the board) and then we will discuss if the NEW thing is still a windsurf ...

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Imax1 said..
Add those new ratchet mast extensions to the new ace thing. They make me happy
Two things I would like to see improved . 1 , is board durability . In today's day and age , you
would have thought they could make boards tough and light , like they did years ago and ,2, a better universal fin box system. I think a 2 bolt Tuttle with side angles like aPB.

It's the old saw - Your board can be any two of the following: tough, light or cheap. Those old 90s boards that were tough required expensive steel molds and, still, they weren't that tough (beaches used to be littered with noses from Bic 283s). They resisted mild dings well but a major hit was still a major hit. Given what we foilers put boards through, I must say modern boards are no slouch. My first nice board over 30 years ago was an epoxy sandwich. I think that I had to make a repair almost every outing. Of course, I was an awful windsurfer back then so...

I wish someone would produce a boom with a electric outhaul system ,so you only have to hook the sail onto the pulley
and no strings externally ,I know pryde have the hidden strings ,but you still have to take your hands off the boom to adjust it
thinking something like 2 buttons one to tighten one to loosen like a soft pad switch ,Just an idea .might be something for
North to think about ,or pryde to adapt it to their boom as they are half way there ,be great for pro racers ,it would also have no slipping of the strings in the cleat ,the transaction of out and in would also be smoother and no big pull and for a racer small adjustments at a push of a button would be very beneficial as you could adjust it at full speed without taking your hands off the boom

just an idea

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Tardy said..
I wish someone would produce a boom with a electric outhaul system ,so you only have to hook the sail onto the pulley
and no strings externally ,I know pryde have the hidden strings ,but you still have to take your hands off the boom to adjust it
thinking something like 2 buttons one to tighten one to loosen like a soft pad switch ,Just an idea .might be something for
North to think about ,or pryde to adapt it to their boom as they are half way there ,be great for pro racers ,it would also have no slipping of the strings in the cleat ,the transaction of out and in would also be smoother and no big pull and for a racer small adjustments at a push of a button would be very beneficial as you could adjust it at full speed without taking your hands off the boom

just an idea

It's been done just can't remember who did it

just did a search, it was a downhaul system not outhaul

Been expecting some crossover in the inflatable struts/battens area for a while, yet nothing much besides the beginner rigs

Should be feasible to use high pressure struts instead of fiberglass rods/tensioners.

(Wouldn't mind observing epic Schrader vs Presta valve discussions in this blessed population, especially in relation to the presumed toe-in requirements)

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Doggerland said..
Been expecting some crossover in the inflatable struts/battens area for a while, yet nothing much besides the beginner rigs

Should be feasible to use high pressure struts instead of fiberglass rods/tensioners.

(Wouldn't mind observing epic Schrader vs Presta valve discussions in this blessed population, especially in relation to the presumed toe-in requirements)

I smell what your stepping in.
What about a double skin , drop stitch, perfect wing shape ? It would be heavy. Could a smaller perfect wing produce more power , so needing a smaller size to offset some of the extra weight ?
Probably not
I know , a super powerful perfect wing is not good for us to handle.
ok, hows about , instead of blow up drop stitch , what about foam inner for shape ? ...bitch to roll up.

Didn't a company try a deep luff with inflatable cambers at some point?

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Grantmac said..
Didn't a company try a deep luff with inflatable cambers at some point?

Yes, there is this "small" company called North that makes them... ;)

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Grantmac said..
Didn't a company try a deep luff with inflatable cambers at some point?

Double luff sails were indeed tried multiple times, including inflatable ones. North is now using inflatable camber, unclear why ... besides adding weight and complexity. Assorted picks from the past:

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Subsonic said..

Well sorry but your opening comments kind of inspired the debate. Windsurfing has been through a number of iterations and alterations in the past. If you want to inspire new comers it seems these days what you need to provide is instant and easy gratification, but windsurfing was never that. Its meant to be challenging.


i'm not sure what you're hoping is going to be achieved through re design, but examining the relatively brief history of windsports you'll see that each sport has had its turn as the "new fad" i think windsurfing is probably fairing relatively well all in all. People are still getting into it.

Pretty much spot on. If you take away the challenge what do you have left other than instant gratification. The rewards and enjoyment flow from the effort you put in, so why would we want remove the challenging aspects of the sport. Already there are ways to progress from the easier to the extreme. There seems to be a pressure form external sources that push people to look for new and better things. That is alright for some, but why not find your happy place of enjoyment and stay there. Move at your own pace. It is always different on the water anyway.

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Imax1 said..

Doggerland said..
Been expecting some crossover in the inflatable struts/battens area for a while, yet nothing much besides the beginner rigs

Should be feasible to use high pressure struts instead of fiberglass rods/tensioners.

(Wouldn't mind observing epic Schrader vs Presta valve discussions in this blessed population, especially in relation to the presumed toe-in requirements)

I smell what your stepping in.
What about a double skin , drop stitch, perfect wing shape ? It would be heavy. Could a smaller perfect wing produce more power , so needing a smaller size to offset some of the extra weight ?
Probably not
I know , a super powerful perfect wing is not good for us to handle.
ok, hows about , instead of blow up drop stitch , what about foam inner for shape ? ...bitch to roll up.

Something like this ?
www.shapewave.eu

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duzzi said..

Grantmac said..
Didn't a company try a deep luff with inflatable cambers at some point?

Double luff sails were indeed tried multiple times, including inflatable ones. North is now using inflatable camber, unclear why ... besides adding weight and complexity. Assorted picks from the past:

It has something to do with the one piece sail construction, they can't use conventional cams

I'd like to see something new for footstrap attachments. My regular windsurfing boards not an issue, once set they don't generally need moved but for any type of crossover board. WindSup, foil boards, 4 in 1 type boards traditional screw in footstrap attachment sucks if you want to consistently move around or take on and off straps for different disciplines.

Here's a morph dinghy and sup sites.google.com/morphmarine.com/morphmarine/home. And this one changes shape quite a lot , although the daughter (I think) looks very bored. For us 10-20 cm width change would be all is needed ...

Second the footstraps attachments. An easily adjustable system where you can move the straps inboard/outboard and forwards/backwards would be brilliant on a freestyle wave board. Click and remove the second back strap, slide the other one to the center and slide front straps more inboard and a little larger for waves and swell vs blasting.

Should be doable, maybe inspired by snowboarding?

The inflatable luff sleeve for me would be more about a deep luff sail that weighs less and couldn't take on water.

Footstraps:
Simply changing to torx screws for my straps has been a revolution. No more worn out screwdrivers and screw heads threatening to punch a hole in the board. I'll of course eventually wear out the inserts but that's life.
If you had metal inserts it would be super easy.

My '96 Equipe has miniature fin tracks for the footstraps which let you slide them with a captive nut. Probably do something in carbon without gaining a lot of weight.

Hull design:
Starboard use a rigid top plate on their inflatable wing boards which holds all the inserts and foil mount. Before they used it for inflatables they had a similar design with multiple hard boards they could bolt to it as prototypes.
What if there was a rigid top piece holding all your footstrap inserts and mast track which attached to different boards?
Probably wouldn't want it to also do fin boxes since that would get bulky.

I had a Surfpartner Ray in the early 90-ties, the foot-straps where easily changed by twisting the plastic end by 90 degrees. It also featured a movable mastbase, "on the fly". Lots of great inventions have been used in the past. The board was very durable too, impossible to get a ding on that one, and it would never fly off the roof-rack while loading it onto the car either. ;)

A good youtube somewhat related to this thread, mostly about the state of the industry ?si=O9Q9oRcMbWwA433B&t=1078