Select to expand quote

airsail said..
The advantage of windfoiling over kitefoiling is that on a kite we need x amount of wind to drag our ass up out of the water, that takes some power. Once your up on the foil you don't need that initial power so your now possibly over powered as speed increases rapidly.
On a wind foil, not that I have tried it yet, your already standing, you just need to pump onto the foil, once on the foil speed increases and your comfortable.
Plus, I know I have foiled in conditions when if I drop the kite I know I won't be getting it back up again, just not enough wind to relaunch so you don't go too far out, just in case. On a wind foil you can always just putt back in on the surface.
I can see our local becoming very user friendly to the windfoil, already in the last couple of years we have seen a revival of the sailboarder, probably up to 50/50 now with kiters in the stronger stuff, this will close the gap in the light stuff. Hell, I even dusted off my sailboard gear last year, maybe it is time to fit a foil to it.

iIt will be great for the shops/ importers too, the easy overseas shipping of kite equipment into oz has killed many shops, Sailboard gear is just too bulky and will require importers and shops for distribution.

100% on to it airsail.

The super weird thing with Windfoiling also is as you are pumping in the really light stuff, it totally does not feel like you are going to get going, but as you ever so slightly increase your speed, the foil produces lift and also board speed, which in turn increases apparent wind and so on, so you go from feeling like your just drifting along to up and foiling with some efficient pumping and good foil control.

As we're in westerly season now, the lulls are giant, and it is so good to be able to glug out to the midle of the bay and wait for the squals, then you have all the room you need to pump and bare-away to get up.

I can see Windfoiing overtaking Lightwind kiting.

Enjoy, Ride safe,


JB

Nice work, JB!

I see the Hover is designed to be used with SUPs - would it give all-round performance if fitted to a Raceboard, or won't it foil upwind well?

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..
Nice work, JB!

I see the Hover is designed to be used with SUPs - would it give all-round performance if fitted to a Raceboard, or won't it foil upwind well?

Hey Chris,

Not totally sure what you question is here, Hover is the name to the entire Foil Board line up. There is Kite Hovers, SUP Hovers, Windsurf Hovers and Surf hovers.

Are you meaning to fix a foil to a raceboard (i.e. longboard)? For foiling there is not real advantage to going longer in your board, as soon as your in the air, length is irrelevant to performance. To answer your question, depending on your hull spedd and wind speed, you wwill be able to go upwind at amazing angles, but more importantly (like the AC boats) you VMG don't need to but will travel much faster at a lower angle resulting in a better VMG.

I see coarse racing going to boards of 7-8' and foiling.

Regards,

JB

Select to expand quote

Windgenuity said..

I see coarse racing going to boards of 7-8' and foiling.

Regards,

JB

How will foils perform in 25 knts and a large chop, will course racing need multiple foils as well as multiple sails to manage a wide wind range

LeeD, we know you are the resident bullshhit detector but If we ignore numbers, isn't it just clear that foils are planing much earlier and with much smaller rigs than standard gear? Exact wind strengths are impossible to measure accurately. I think interest for me is piqued enough that I'll have to just try foiling for myself. I've seen enough evidence; Robby Naish video, other videos,local sailors and how awesome the local kitefoilers go. Bring it on.

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
JB...
I question because I windsurf with guys on the leading edge of the foil revolution, foil maker's like Mike Zaicheck, his former team rider's Steve Sylvester and Mike Percy, and a handful of other foil rider's for the past two year's. Most are using Formula boards and F-4, or MikeZ foils, but including NP's and Starboard foils also.
We seldom get light winds (that's relative of course) here in Berkeley Ca., usually plenty for me at 160 lbs to plane solidly with a 6 meter sail and a 100 liter board. Those days, the foilers my size are using slightly bigger sails with their Formula boards and foils.
Some lighter wind days do come around in the summer, so on a "7-13 mph" day, they are still out foiling, while I"m playing tennis or watching. Seems they only pump onto a foil in the higher end of that range, not the lower ends. And, they're using 7 meter sail sizing.
I just don't see foiling really working in sub kitesurfing winds, which is around "7-11" as bare minimum...for actual planing, then foiling. Sure, you can slog to the windline, or wait for a puff, but my thought is, "if I don't plane at least 90% with 6 meter and 100 liters, I"m sitting on shore anyways. I do need 13-19 mph windspeeds, cannot pump onto a plane in 13, but can glide thru easily once planing in the straps.

You might be looking at the wrong crowd, riding "first generation" equipment? The new race specific foil boards from Starboard, JP, RRD are 85-91 cm wide at most. They are different in every way: size, bottom and top. Last generation non-race specific boards are narrower yet by 10-15 cm, like the Naish, not to mention little thinghies like the Horue Femto (150 cm long!).
Where I sail, across your spot, there is one sailor on a foil-Formula board, and frankly I would not try it even if they pay me: it looks more than huge (it is a Formula board with a 3 Kg meter long thing attached to it!), it is slow, and it does not seem efficient at all for take of. Than there is one of the top slalom guys, on a new F4/slalom board and it starts to be a marvel to look at, flying over chop as if it was not there. Than a guy on a Slingshot Dialer (228x70) who is having a seemingly lot of fun on a small sail ... this last seem the way to go for me, if a 95Kg person can take the Hoover in the winds shown in the videos I am convinced: at my 72 Kg it is more than I need!

I believe length does matter, for as you go shorter the swing weight of the board gets closer to the feel and action of the foil.

Select to expand quote

Windgenuity said..

Chris 249 said..
Nice work, JB!

I see the Hover is designed to be used with SUPs - would it give all-round performance if fitted to a Raceboard, or won't it foil upwind well?

Hey Chris,

Not totally sure what you question is here, Hover is the name to the entire Foil Board line up. There is Kite Hovers, SUP Hovers, Windsurf Hovers and Surf hovers.

Are you meaning to fix a foil to a raceboard (i.e. longboard)? For foiling there is not real advantage to going longer in your board, as soon as your in the air, length is irrelevant to performance. To answer your question, depending on your hull spedd and wind speed, you wwill be able to go upwind at amazing angles, but more importantly (like the AC boats) you VMG don't need to but will travel much faster at a lower angle resulting in a better VMG.

I see coarse racing going to boards of 7-8' and foiling.

Regards,

JB

Sorry about the unclear question. Yep, I was wondering how a foil would go on a raceboard. I know the extra length won't help when foiling and may actually hinder. The issue is that while foiling in 8 knots is great, it seems to be similar to Formula being able to plane in 8 knots - it was fantastic lots of the time but it still didn't really work in the many times and places where there's not a steady 8 knots.

Last season I think I did just five weekend regattas, two of them inland but the rest in places like Toukley, Trial Bay, and Eden. Out of ten days, there were just two days of consistent 8 knot+ winds.

A foiling raceboard may be a lot better at gliding through the light winds and through the light-wind spots than a foiling 7' board, and to those of us who like all-round performance that's important.

If the foil is doing all the work then why are the boards so wide? I would have thought you could drift out to the windline on a 90 l board with a 5 m sail ....may be slightly bigger for the more Falstaffian folk.

Wider board is used to get planing earlier, which you then convert to more speed and rear foot pressure to lift onto a foil.
A narrow board can come down pretty hard, when rider error occurs, while a wider board hit's the width before you get completely upside down or sidways.
Uphauling is safer than waterstarting with foils, and foils are mostly used for lighter wind conditions, which often require a long slog upwind to get to the windline.

Here a better Video Quality on Robby's rundown on Foiling:

Do you guys read the other threads on this forum?
There is a thread on Gear Reviews of sailors planing in "10-12 Knots" breezes.
So, what do you think is the minimal wind for windfoiling?
Yes, windfoil allows a smaller sail to be used....with a big board.
Personaly, when it's 10 mph gusts, there are better things to do than try to get planing on expensive gear.

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
Do you guys read the other threads on this forum?
There is a thread on Gear Reviews of sailors planing in "10-12 Knots" breezes.
So, what do you think is the minimal wind for windfoiling?
Yes, windfoil allows a smaller sail to be used....with a big board.
Personaly, when it's 10 mph gusts, there are better things to do than try to get planing on expensive gear.

Unfortunately for me, it is super rare to get winds strong enough to enjoy or even get planning Windsurfing in my area, I even struggle to get kiting as much as i'd like to. Massive formula and race gear does not appeal to me, I just want to go windsurfing. Wind Foiling has opened up a window below 10kn to do this and enjoy just cruising with minimal strain, low budget and heaps of fun and speed.

Foil on,

JB

No doubt it's fun, but I don't know about cheap.
You gotta reinforce the fin box of any board you buy, unless it's specifically made to handle a 95cm long fin.
Even Starboard will admit you need a reinforced fin box on any of their windsurfing boards.
I guess the NP Aluminum foil is cheap....

Select to expand quote

I can see our local becoming very user friendly to the windfoil, already in the last couple of years we have seen a revival of the sailboarder, probably up to 50/50 now with kiters in the stronger stuff, this will close the gap in the light stuff. Hell, I even dusted off my sailboard gear last year, maybe it is time to fit a foil to it.

Haha! I hit a half dozen rays at Queens last season. Each time resulting an a massive over-the-front. Not so sure it will be windfoil friendly! I predict a fair bit of splintered carbon! ??

Thanks BIG TIME JB.

I ordered my 122 Litre Naish Hover board and Thrust Foil two months ago and can't wait to get my hands on them late August/September here in WA.

At the same height and weight as you (well. maybe 5kg more ), I'm excited with the prospect of 'flying' in 8 knots of wind with a 5-6meter wave sail.

I LOVED your videos. can I ask some questions?

How many sessions had you sailed the gear before you filmed the videos? (BTW nice production. especially the music and sub-titled tips)

Watching other foiling YouTube clips, I was worried the Hover 122 was too small for my weight. Do you have any difficulties up-hauling (as there's no way I'm water-starting in 8-10 knots)?

How the hell do you sustain the correct 'altitude'? Is it controlled by sheeting the sail, body position. how you hold your mouth?

Roll On Delivery of my New Toy!!!

I i liked Robbys demo on his setup. Who would of thought 5 years ago you could get planing in such light wind on a small sail with a foil. AMAZING!. What will the next 5 years bring in innovation designs. Windsurfing will always have endless boundaries. l will be hanging out for the used foils in the buy&sell thread in a year or so lol

Select to expand quote

Shifu said..

I can see our local becoming very user friendly to the windfoil, already in the last couple of years we have seen a revival of the sailboarder, probably up to 50/50 now with kiters in the stronger stuff, this will close the gap in the light stuff. Hell, I even dusted off my sailboard gear last year, maybe it is time to fit a foil to it.

Haha! I hit a half dozen rays at Queens last season. Each time resulting an a massive over-the-front. Not so sure it will be windfoil friendly! I predict a fair bit of splintered carbon! ??

It's definitely kitefoil friendly so I doubt windfoils will be much different. Have hit a ray on the kitefoil with no bad results, maybe they can hear it coming better. Queens with its deep water just off the beach and little wave action makes it an easy place to foil, just stay away from the rocks to the south.

Even weight on both feet, a shift of the hips towards one or the other weights that foot.

Select to expand quote

cecil said..
Thanks BIG TIME JB.

I ordered my 122 Litre Naish Hover board and Thrust Foil two months ago and can't wait to get my hands on them late August/September here in WA.

At the same height and weight as you (well. maybe 5kg more ), I'm excited with the prospect of 'flying' in 8 knots of wind with a 5-6meter wave sail.

I LOVED your videos. can I ask some questions?

How many sessions had you sailed the gear before you filmed the videos? (BTW nice production. especially the music and sub-titled tips)

Watching other foiling YouTube clips, I was worried the Hover 122 was too small for my weight. Do you have any difficulties up-hauling (as there's no way I'm water-starting in 8-10 knots)?

How the hell do you sustain the correct 'altitude'? Is it controlled by sheeting the sail, body position. how you hold your mouth?

Roll On Delivery of my New Toy!!!

Hey Cecil,

Stoked your all lined up for a Hover and Thrust Combo. I'll be sure to get it on it's way as soon as it arrives. And thanks for the props on the vids.

The first video I put up is actually my very first time trying Wind Foiling. It the one where I am riding the Raptor V116 with no foot straps.
here it is in case you missed it -



This more recent video was my 6th time. The first and last videos where in very similar conditions, super light and very gusty. I have sailed in between these two in 15 - 18kts in the ocean, 5 - <10kts on the lake and another session further up the bay in about 20-25kts. All of which I had successes and good glides (the windy day was crazy).

As you know I am about 95kg and can tack the board is the super light stuff. Last week A-Bomber from Wetspot gave the board a run at our Dealer Foiling Experience and did ok on it. He did sink it in the super light stuff, but otherwise was able to put around in non-planning/foiling conditions. He is about 105kg. I have no issues up-hauling on the 122. The balance point is pretty different to your std board, and you kind of have your back foot further back and your front just in front of the mast.

Trimming is quite easy now that I have worked it all out. It's important to get somewhat locked of in your sailing stance first, then adjust your height by slight movements of your hips (moving your body weight fore and aft), these movements are only very slight, I am still over compensating sometimes, but getting better.

The tricky part is that the faster you go, the more lift you produce = Going Up.
The more you sheet in and load your sail produces mast foot pressure = Going Down.
You go very fast, and sometimes want to sheet out to get your self settled, sheeting out reduces mast foot pressure = Going Up.
But sheeting out also reduces speed which = Going Down.

So there is a fare bit to get comfortable with, but it does become somewhat natural the more you ride. But I find concentrating on my body position is key. My mouth I find is normally wide open with stoke and excitement ;)

I hope this helps,

Enjoy the glide - The future is in the AIR.

JB

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
No doubt it's fun, but I don't know about cheap.
You gotta reinforce the fin box of any board you buy, unless it's specifically made to handle a 95cm long fin.
Even Starboard will admit you need a reinforced fin box on any of their windsurfing boards.
I guess the NP Aluminum foil is cheap....

I would say it's cheaper then having to double up on larger gear to get out in lighter air. Using the same sail, mast and boom that I use in 20 kts, and buying a board and foil is definitely cheaper then buying a full lightwind setup.

It is so much fun!!!!!

You most definitely do need to re-enforce any existing board if you wish to modify. I would always suggest buying a production/specific built board. Deep Tuttle boxes will be able to manage the side to side forces of a foil, but it's the sheering force at the front of the box that is the issues. For my instance, there is enough force/life from the foil to lift my 95kg, board and Rig up into the air from under my back foot and whilst this is happening the rig and my front foot are applying downwards pressure to control the energy and turn it into forward momentum. That area in front of the foil mount is under so much load. Naish use a high density foam insert that is about 1m long in front of the foil mounting area to distribute the loads efficiently. Putting your foil into an existing board will end in tears, it might not be immediate, but it will happen. If you are not riding a production or specifically built board, please tether your foil to you back footstrap with some 3mm cord. I know too many stories of people losing their foils from doing the dodgy with their boards.

Ride safe,

JB

Nice and cheap, to buy a foil AND a foil board.
I already have a Formula board, '12 F-167 and a couple of deep tuttle light wind slalom boards. So, no excuses.
Except for the fact the past month, I've been windsurfing on smaller sails (sub 86 liter boards) than anyone on a foil among the 8 foil rider's around here, three my weight, and one female at least 25 lbs lighter than me.
End of season, around Oct., we will get those sub 14 mph winds the foils excel in. By then, I"ll already have my 100+ planing days on sails smaller than 6.5 and mostly boards around 100 liters.

Select to expand quote

JB said..


Unfortunately for me, it is super rare to get winds strong enough to enjoy or even get planning Windsurfing in my area, I even struggle to get kiting as much as i'd like to. Massive formula and race gear does not appeal to me, I just want to go windsurfing. Wind Foiling has opened up a window below 10kn to do this and enjoy just cruising with minimal strain, low budget and heaps of fun and speed.

Foil on,

JB

That sounds great, foil is shaping up to be a real game changer. I live in a very windy place (San Francisco) but if I was back home (Italy, on Lago Maggiore) a foil would just be a gods-send. Where I used to dinghy sail eons ago the winds are thermal 8-12 knots most days from May to September, with the occasional 20, and the very occasional 25-30 knots Tramontana (north wind). You cannot really windsurf that great most of the time but with a Foil? heaven!

And foil is spreading in the Bay Area, and I am very tempted. Not just to be able to go in 10-12 knots with a small sail, but see if maybe it is possible to cross into high-wind and finally (finally!) reduce the amount of chop that little by little eats away at my joints!

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
Even weight on both feet, a shift of the hips towards one or the other weights that foot.

What foil do you use LeeD? Do you use it on the formula board?

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
Even weight on both feet, a shift of the hips towards one or the other weights that foot.

Actually, the opposite is true. The shift of the head weights that foot, the hips go in the opposite direction.

Met J.B. today down at W.S & Snow. He went through all the pointers a person would ask .very informative guy. Yes l put a order in for the Naish 122 board & foil.get it in late september. I still trying to get my head around how the hover pops up in such light winds with such a small sail. Im converted.

Think about it.
Wouldn't the weight shift technique depend on how the sailor moves? We are all different, if you didn't know, and we move different parts of our bodies differently.
We're holding onto the booms, mostly below shoulder level, with very light pressure, UNlike windsurfing, where we use body weight to balance the pull of the rig. We're sheeting in and out to balance pressure, to control speed, to control lift.
Obviously, there's more than ONE way to shift weight, and that depends on who we are and how we're trained by our past history.
One thing is for sure, to shift our weight and control speed and height, it's a COMBINATION of several body parts, while here we seem to be focusing on ONE body part.
And no, we don't all do it the same. Just like we pump differently, we choose different sized sails for the same conditions, and even choose different style of boards for the same conditions.

I'm still not completely convinced about these claims of planing in the 8-12 knot range.

I watched one sail a few days ago. He seemed to get going with what appeared to be a sail around 6.5m in around 12-13 knots at best.

A hydro-foil kite with a 15 to 20m sail,yes I've seem them planing and powered up in winds a formula board with a 10 metre would have no absolutely chance of planing.

Those things are insane when the winds are around 8-12 knots.

A hydrofoil windsurfer will probably need another couple of knots to get going. At least.