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SimonP
Yes I'm sure they would be referring to kite masts, and remember it's marketing hype, every brand has a different take on it.
I'm currently winging on the wizard 103 with the 90cm mast with the Infinity 84 set up.
I asked Wyatt Miller if the kite 102 would be suitable for winging he replied yes, but depending on body weight, wing size, you might want to look at the 103 masts carbon or aluminium.
Untill my wingcraft arrives I'm going to put the Phantasm mast adaptor onto my Hover Glide 90 cm and use the 926/710 Phantasm lower package with the wizard.
Should be fun.
Don't get hung up on advertising claims ride what you want can afford and enjoy ??????

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SA_AL said..

tswei99 said..
I was considering the Starboard SuperCruiser, but SB does not have a twin track pedestal mast. They have ones for kite/wing, but not for wind. And the SuperCruiser system does not have higher aspect wings that work with that fuse. Having pretty extensive experience on the SSi76 wing, I wanted something similar for medium to high wind, SuperCruiser might actually be a bit too big. And then I wanted a slightly larger and higher aspect wing for low wind (10-15 knots) and for it to work w/ same mast.

I was also looking into Starboard cruiser and it seems that you may be able use their monolithic carbon mast with plate and supercruiser wing. Here are some of the images and link.
pagestudio.s3.theshoppad.net/starboardfoils/362833c26aa56e68d6f985e11ff785d8.pdf

I saw this and asked my dealer and they said these are NOT intended for windfoil use, sadly. I was so disappointed as it looks like a great design for modularity. My guess is that windfoil is too much stress for many designs that started as wing/SUP designs.

Hello,

Slingshot HG and previous carbon version was made at Moses/Sabfoil, do you know where the Phantasm foil range is made?

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tswei99 said..

SA_AL said..

tswei99 said..
I was considering the Starboard SuperCruiser, but SB does not have a twin track pedestal mast. They have ones for kite/wing, but not for wind. And the SuperCruiser system does not have higher aspect wings that work with that fuse. Having pretty extensive experience on the SSi76 wing, I wanted something similar for medium to high wind, SuperCruiser might actually be a bit too big. And then I wanted a slightly larger and higher aspect wing for low wind (10-15 knots) and for it to work w/ same mast.

I was also looking into Starboard cruiser and it seems that you may be able use their monolithic carbon mast with plate and supercruiser wing. Here are some of the images and link.
pagestudio.s3.theshoppad.net/starboardfoils/362833c26aa56e68d6f985e11ff785d8.pdf

I saw this and asked my dealer and they said these are NOT intended for windfoil use, sadly. I was so disappointed as it looks like a great design for modularity. My guess is that windfoil is too much stress for many designs that started as wing/SUP designs.

Why the obsession with track mount foils. Even the Slingshot proto boards and foils are all tuttle. If it is good enough for them it should work for everyone. Track mounts just add another level of complexity for everyone to get setup.

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DarrylG said..
Why the obsession with track mount foils. Even the Slingshot proto boards and foils are all tuttle. If it is good enough for them it should work for everyone. Track mounts just add another level of complexity for everyone to get setup.

Some of the foilers think dialing the foil position makes a significant difference. I also struggled finding my sweet spot during my learning phase but sliding foil in exact position allowed me to get more controlled runs. You are right about the set-up is more time consuming compared to tuttlebox.

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Samkyo said..
Hello,

Slingshot HG and previous carbon version was made at Moses/Sabfoil, do you know where the Phantasm foil range is made?

At this stage I don't know where it's made but I can assure it's not the SAB factory....we have been working with different manufactures.

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SA_AL said..

DarrylG said..
Why the obsession with track mount foils. Even the Slingshot proto boards and foils are all tuttle. If it is good enough for them it should work for everyone. Track mounts just add another level of complexity for everyone to get setup.

Some of the foilers think dialing the foil position makes a significant difference. I also struggled finding my sweet spot during my learning phase but sliding foil in exact position allowed me to get more controlled runs. You are right about the set-up is more time consuming compared to tuttlebox.

I am one of those people. I can feel a 0.5 CM movement in foil position, which is why I switched to two twin track boards this season (SS Levi 150 & W114). Very glad to have this flexibility. There are just too many variables with different foils/wings/sails, riders, etc.

Let's say we go Tuttle.
Anthony weighs a hair over 90 kg.
I weigh 72 kg.
Roger 65 kg.

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LeeD said..
Let's say we go Tuttle.
Anthony weighs a hair over 90 kg.
I weigh 72 kg.
Roger 65 kg.

So? Your all light weights :)
You don't control the lift of the foil by standing further forward or back.
You change the amount of lift by adjusting the wing angle. ( board trim angle)
Are you a passenger or the pilot.

All the IQ, Formula and Slalom foil boards run a tuttle, and they also have a wide range of rider weights.

Which is why fuses are offered in different lengths, including different mast to front foil.

No
Different length fuses are offered for different disciplines, course / slalom/ speed.
All Iq riders will use 115+ for all course racing.
I can use all fuses from 75cm to 115++ depending on my mood. ( with no foot strap changes )

Are all windsurf sails the same size?
Are all boards the same?
Is masttrack at the same spot?
Do we all use the same settings?
Do we all drive VW's?

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LeeD said..
Are all windsurf sails the same size?
Are all boards the same?
Is masttrack at the same spot?
Do we all use the same settings?
Do we all drive VW's?

Do slapper boards need sliding fin tracks, No,they use different sails riders? etc.

Back to my original point, if you are a learner ( passenger) you may feel better trying to adjust the tracks. But when you get better ( like the slingshot proto testers/ designers, or Balz, or any of the course racers, or Pwa slalom guys ) you are better off having a fixed, lighter / stronger Tuttle box.

Tracks do have a place and that is on thinner surf / sup/ kite foil boards

Select to expand quote

DarrylG said..

LeeD said..
Are all windsurf sails the same size?
Are all boards the same?
Is masttrack at the same spot?
Do we all use the same settings?
Do we all drive VW's?

Do slapper boards need sliding fin tracks, No,they use different sails riders? etc.

Back to my original point, if you are a learner ( passenger) you may feel better trying to adjust the tracks. But when you get better ( like the slingshot proto testers/ designers, or Balz, or any of the course racers, or Pwa slalom guys ) you are better off having a fixed, lighter / stronger Tuttle box.

Tracks do have a place and that is on thinner surf / sup/ kite foil boards

"Tuttle is dead"

Wing boards are actually getting longer tracks, for more adjustment to suit different brand foils. So for them a Tuttle box would be a backward step.

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Faff said..

DarrylG said..

LeeD said..
Are all windsurf sails the same size?
Are all boards the same?
Is masttrack at the same spot?
Do we all use the same settings?
Do we all drive VW's?

Do slapper boards need sliding fin tracks, No,they use different sails riders? etc.

Back to my original point, if you are a learner ( passenger) you may feel better trying to adjust the tracks. But when you get better ( like the slingshot proto testers/ designers, or Balz, or any of the course racers, or Pwa slalom guys ) you are better off having a fixed, lighter / stronger Tuttle box.

Tracks do have a place and that is on thinner surf / sup/ kite foil boards

"Tuttle is dead"

They are Hybrid boards trying to do multiple things. :))Always will be compromises in a multi Tool. I own a Leather man but still prefer a steak knife at dinner

At a bare minimum there is a weight penalty for additional inserts etc.

Dinging discussions belong on the Sup page

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DarrylG said..

Faff said..

DarrylG said..

LeeD said..
Are all windsurf sails the same size?
Are all boards the same?
Is masttrack at the same spot?
Do we all use the same settings?
Do we all drive VW's?

Do slapper boards need sliding fin tracks, No,they use different sails riders? etc.

Back to my original point, if you are a learner ( passenger) you may feel better trying to adjust the tracks. But when you get better ( like the slingshot proto testers/ designers, or Balz, or any of the course racers, or Pwa slalom guys ) you are better off having a fixed, lighter / stronger Tuttle box.

Tracks do have a place and that is on thinner surf / sup/ kite foil boards

"Tuttle is dead"

They are Hybrid boards trying to do multiple things. :))Always will be compromises in a multi Tool. I own a Leather man but still prefer a steak knife at dinner

At a bare minimum there is a weight penalty for additional inserts etc.

Dinging discussions belong on the Sup page

Hmm, I don't think they are hybrid boards. I think they are freefoil boards first and foremost "and you can wing on them too!" - the tracks aren't forward enough.

Select to expand quote

Faff said..

DarrylG said..

Faff said..

DarrylG said..

LeeD said..
Are all windsurf sails the same size?
Are all boards the same?
Is masttrack at the same spot?
Do we all use the same settings?
Do we all drive VW's?

Do slapper boards need sliding fin tracks, No,they use different sails riders? etc.

Back to my original point, if you are a learner ( passenger) you may feel better trying to adjust the tracks. But when you get better ( like the slingshot proto testers/ designers, or Balz, or any of the course racers, or Pwa slalom guys ) you are better off having a fixed, lighter / stronger Tuttle box.

Tracks do have a place and that is on thinner surf / sup/ kite foil boards

"Tuttle is dead"

They are Hybrid boards trying to do multiple things. :))Always will be compromises in a multi Tool. I own a Leather man but still prefer a steak knife at dinner

At a bare minimum there is a weight penalty for additional inserts etc.

Dinging discussions belong on the Sup page

Hmm, I don't think they are hybrid boards. I think they are freefoil boards first and foremost "and you can wing on them too!" - the tracks aren't forward enough.

I'd like some tracks in my board, purely because I'd like the thought of having more tuning uptions, not because the place my tuttle is not usable. For waveriding I'd like the foil a little further back so I can comfortably stay in my backstrap all the time, for freeride I'd like it further forward to enhance jibing, for freestyle/jumping even further forward to increase pop. Currently I only have the middle option on my production board and the latter on my custom.

I think having an "IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING PUT THE FOIL HERE" mark would be nice though. People will say "yeah thats the center of the track", but often it isnt even with all same brand equipment.

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WhiteofHeart said..

Faff said..

DarrylG said..

Faff said..

DarrylG said..

LeeD said..
Are all windsurf sails the same size?
Are all boards the same?
Is masttrack at the same spot?
Do we all use the same settings?
Do we all drive VW's?

Do slapper boards need sliding fin tracks, No,they use different sails riders? etc.

Back to my original point, if you are a learner ( passenger) you may feel better trying to adjust the tracks. But when you get better ( like the slingshot proto testers/ designers, or Balz, or any of the course racers, or Pwa slalom guys ) you are better off having a fixed, lighter / stronger Tuttle box.

Tracks do have a place and that is on thinner surf / sup/ kite foil boards

"Tuttle is dead"

They are Hybrid boards trying to do multiple things. :))Always will be compromises in a multi Tool. I own a Leather man but still prefer a steak knife at dinner

At a bare minimum there is a weight penalty for additional inserts etc.

Dinging discussions belong on the Sup page

Hmm, I don't think they are hybrid boards. I think they are freefoil boards first and foremost "and you can wing on them too!" - the tracks aren't forward enough.

I'd like some tracks in my board, purely because I'd like the thought of having more tuning uptions, not because the place my tuttle is not usable. For waveriding I'd like the foil a little further back so I can comfortably stay in my backstrap all the time, for freeride I'd like it further forward to enhance jibing, for freestyle/jumping even further forward to increase pop. Currently I only have the middle option on my production board and the latter on my custom.

I think having an "IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING PUT THE FOIL HERE" mark would be nice though. People will say "yeah thats the center of the track", but often it isnt even with all same brand equipment.

Does this mean the F-one windfoil board will get tracks at some point?

Select to expand quote

Faff said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Faff said..

DarrylG said..

Faff said..

DarrylG said..

LeeD said..
Are all windsurf sails the same size?
Are all boards the same?
Is masttrack at the same spot?
Do we all use the same settings?
Do we all drive VW's?

Do slapper boards need sliding fin tracks, No,they use different sails riders? etc.

Back to my original point, if you are a learner ( passenger) you may feel better trying to adjust the tracks. But when you get better ( like the slingshot proto testers/ designers, or Balz, or any of the course racers, or Pwa slalom guys ) you are better off having a fixed, lighter / stronger Tuttle box.

Tracks do have a place and that is on thinner surf / sup/ kite foil boards

"Tuttle is dead"

They are Hybrid boards trying to do multiple things. :))Always will be compromises in a multi Tool. I own a Leather man but still prefer a steak knife at dinner

At a bare minimum there is a weight penalty for additional inserts etc.

Dinging discussions belong on the Sup page

Hmm, I don't think they are hybrid boards. I think they are freefoil boards first and foremost "and you can wing on them too!" - the tracks aren't forward enough.

I'd like some tracks in my board, purely because I'd like the thought of having more tuning uptions, not because the place my tuttle is not usable. For waveriding I'd like the foil a little further back so I can comfortably stay in my backstrap all the time, for freeride I'd like it further forward to enhance jibing, for freestyle/jumping even further forward to increase pop. Currently I only have the middle option on my production board and the latter on my custom.

I think having an "IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING PUT THE FOIL HERE" mark would be nice though. People will say "yeah thats the center of the track", but often it isnt even with all same brand equipment.

Does this mean the F-one windfoil board will get tracks at some point?

There are no changes planned currently. Pretty much all resources are going towards wing development because thats where the market is! F-One has a huge market share in winging (at the beginning of last year we estimated around 70%), while with windfoiling we're small compared to brands like Starboard and Slingshot.

Phantasm in action -- if SS offers a 125 cm mast I'm tempted to get one -- should save a lot of potential breaches.

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simonp123 said..

Have you tried to flex one of the Phantasm masts?.....they are extremely stiff.

I've got the Phantasm Kite 633 with the 92 mast. I don't think it's particularly stiff at all. It's certainly not as stiff as my Lokefoil LK1 Performance (92cm) or my friends 95cm Starboard carbon mast. I'm not convinced it's any stiffer than the Slingshot Hover Glide 90cm aluminium mast either.

The flex is noticeable in the yaw direction and roll directions when the mast is in the board and I try moving the front wing. Perhaps they mean it's stiff compared to other kite foil masts. I'm hoping the 103W mast is much stiffer.

BTW, if you try flexing a foil mast with your hands out of the board it always feels stiff. The real test is to mount it in the board and try to flex it using the front wing for leverage.

You comments re mast stiffness got me thinking so I decided to do some testing. The mast and fuselage assy were bolted to a rigid structure and the area where the fuselage attached to the mast supported so only twist (yaw) is measured.

I only had access to kitefoil masts, but I guess that's the title of this thread so probably ok.
A 5 kg load was placed a set distance along the fuselage and a deflection measurement taken, loaded and unloaded. A flex test was also carried out, the 5 kg weight put on the mast 80cm from the mast base and the deflection measured.The 4 x 90cm + masts I tested are the 110 Levitaz, 101 Sabfoil, Phantasm 102 and an old Naish alloy 90cm.


The Phantasm is 30% stiffer in twist and about 20% stiffer in flex that the Sabfoil. The Levitaz came next but it is so fine at the end and 10cm longer it would alway suffer with twist. The Naish alloy is very stiff in twist, double that of the Sabfoil, only the Phantasm gets close.


Thickness and chord were measured at 80cm down the mast.

Phantasm 102 Twist 7mm Flex 10mm Thickness 13.7mm Chord 109mm

Sabfoil 101cm Twist 10mm Flex 12mm Thickness 13.92mm Chord 106mm

Levitaz 110cm Twist 16mm Flex 12 mm Thickness 12.5mm Chord 98mm

Naish 2018 Alloy 90 cm Twist 5 mm Flex 19mm Thickness 15mm Chord 110mm

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airsail said..

simonp123 said..

Have you tried to flex one of the Phantasm masts?.....they are extremely stiff.

I've got the Phantasm Kite 633 with the 92 mast. I don't think it's particularly stiff at all. It's certainly not as stiff as my Lokefoil LK1 Performance (92cm) or my friends 95cm Starboard carbon mast. I'm not convinced it's any stiffer than the Slingshot Hover Glide 90cm aluminium mast either.

The flex is noticeable in the yaw direction and roll directions when the mast is in the board and I try moving the front wing. Perhaps they mean it's stiff compared to other kite foil masts. I'm hoping the 103W mast is much stiffer.

BTW, if you try flexing a foil mast with your hands out of the board it always feels stiff. The real test is to mount it in the board and try to flex it using the front wing for leverage.

You comments re mast stiffness got me thinking so I decided to do some testing. The mast and fuselage assy were bolted to a rigid structure and the area where the fuselage attached to the mast supported so only twist (yaw) is measured.

I only had access to kitefoil masts, but I guess that's the title of this thread so probably ok.
A 5 kg load was placed a set distance along the fuselage and a deflection measurement taken, loaded and unloaded. A flex test was also carried out, the 5 kg weight put on the mast 80cm from the mast base and the deflection measured.The 4 x 90cm + masts I tested are the 110 Levitaz, 101 Sabfoil, Phantasm 102 and an old Naish alloy 90cm.


The Phantasm is 30% stiffer in twist and about 20% stiffer in flex that the Sabfoil. The Levitaz came next but it is so fine at the end and 10cm longer it would alway suffer with twist. The Naish alloy is very stiff in twist, double that of the Sabfoil, only the Phantasm gets close.


Thickness and chord were measured at 80cm down the mast.

Phantasm 102 Twist 7mm Flex 10mm Thickness 13.7mm Chord 109mm

Sabfoil 101cm Twist 10mm Flex 12mm Thickness 13.92mm Chord 106mm

Levitaz 110cm Twist 16mm Flex 12 mm Thickness 12.5mm Chord 98mm

Naish 2018 Alloy 90 cm Twist 5 mm Flex 19mm Thickness 15mm Chord 110mm

I would love to see Starboard Carbon, Starboard IQ and F4 HMC in that line up.

Anyone got any idea what a Phantasm 730 windfoil setup with 103 mast will weigh?

Hey,
I'm the Slingshot Australia Communications manager, we currently don't have weights for the Phantasm foils on our hype sheets.
I'll try our US brand manager Wyatt Miller, he might be able to weight one.

I personally ride the kite 102 with the PTM 730 wing. I can tell you it's not the lightest but it is the stiffest set up out there.
I'll see what I can do.
Grant

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horey69 said..
Hey,
I'm the Slingshot Australia Communications manager, we currently don't have weights for the Phantasm foils on our hype sheets.
I'll try our US brand manager Wyatt Miller, he might be able to weight one.

I personally ride the kite 102 with the PTM 730 wing. I can tell you it's not the lightest but it is the stiffest set up out there.
I'll see what I can do.
Grant

When are we gonna see the new hype sheet?

Ok so just in from the US team
The 103 carbon wide body with the PFI730 wing 872 aluminium fuse and PS 400 stab comes in at 4.4kg.
2.6kg of that is the Carbon wide body mast.
The Phantasm isn't built to be the lightest on the market, it's built to be super stiff/ durable/ adaptable.
Latest hype sheets are dropping on May the 4th
Hit up your dealer
Grant

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horey69 said..
Ok so just in from the US team
The 103 carbon wide body with the PFI730 wing 872 aluminium fuse and PS 400 stab comes in at 4.4kg.
2.6kg of that is the Carbon wide body mast.
The Phantasm isn't built to be the lightest on the market, it's built to be super stiff/ durable/ adaptable.
Latest hype sheets are dropping on May the 4th
Hit up your dealer
Grant

That is actually not bad at all for a 103 wide mast with 12k. The Moses DT (not Pedestal) 107 race that has 12k is 2.476kg. Add the adapter for DT to Pedestal (Moses Alu) and you have another 810 gram. The total from Moses would be 3.286 kg. Grovekite DT adapter (carbon) is 450 gm.

Thanks Horey

The weight of the fuselage and wing/stab is the most important in terms of the rotational force, and that is then only 1.8kg, less than a Moses w790.

I've asked Slingshot UK and they have just told me they know nothing about the Phantasm, other than it comes out this summer. Not even a hype sheet...

The U.S. phantasm launch has been delayed to the summer as well now.
Increased demand for shipping containers and logistics are creating a bottle neck.