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Paducah said..

thedoor said..

Samkyo said..
Do you think they will do an adaptator to use phantasm Aluminiumfuselage with hover glide aluminium mast as it has been done with Moses?
Could be nice to avoid extra mast budget and have a crossover option on both system to complet my actual system instead of replacing It.

dont think so

If that's the case, there's going to be a lot of disappointed HG owners. More than a few have been waiting a year to lighten up their kit and have a bit of money invested in wings.

The concept already exist since 2018

Not quite the same but in this vid they show how Moses surf wings fit the Phantasm fuselage

Up close look of the new SS wings.

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ZeroVix said..
Up close look of the new SS wings.

They're selling bull**** sometimes though, really, you dont need a big foil te use small sails. I often ride 2m2 smaller than other foilers, last friday I was out with 4.2 on the foil when the slalom windsurfers weren't planing on 8.6. I was on a 900cm2 and I'm on the heavier side with 95kgs and 194cm tall.

It just gets me really worked up that all the slingshot croud always start yelling bigger front wing whatever the question. There's plenty of times when bigger front wing is the solution to a problem, but wanting to ride a smaller sail isnt it. You need a more powerful foil (and adequate technique), and that can be achieved in numerous ways, in my opinion more effectively than by just increasing the front wing size. Greg and Emily are 2 of the best foilers in the world, but I'm sure they'd ride equally small sail sizes using smaller wings, and having the same fun, if not more in certain conditions (although, having personally never sailed in the Gorge, I couldnt comment on that and I'm quite sure they're spot on).

Whiteofheart I will agree with you on a couple of the points that you just made, also not all of the slingshot crew goes with the bigger wings couple of friends of mine that I would call expert only use the 65 inf. about 900 sq. cm and i am more and more sold on that size, faster more reactive and allows me not to have an ultra small sail quiver. I still like the 76 inf. 1550 sq cm very versatile wing that when you are learning to jibe lets you make a lot of mistakes and will go through the jibe at really slow speeds without dropping Think of it like training wheels for foiling the bad thing is when you do go to a smaller wing you have to remember to step everything up entry speed ect.

Cool video. Dude from bigwinds asked good questions.

Obviously, there are lots of ways to do the same thing, but once we find something that works for us we tend to stick with it. And when we deviate from what has worked it throws things off, essentially reinforcing the value of our initial technique.

The better you get the more you can get away with less sail, but you also get better and handling more sail. Also, we are probably rigging our sails in a manner that means our power might be similar. For example, I tend to rig a bit bigger but super flat, so that might equal the power of someone on a metre smaller sail with minimal outhaul and downhaul as described in the video.

If you enjoy foiling using the energy in a wave then the larger wings are very beneficial. I know some foilers use smaller wings but they can't really throttle back enough to stay with the wave and instead ride across it using more sail power.

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Grantmac said..
If you enjoy foiling using the energy in a wave then the larger wings are very beneficial. I know some foilers use smaller wings but they can't really throttle back enough to stay with the wave and instead ride across it using more sail power.

I love Windsurfing for speed, and a big wing over 1300 smothers speed. I will be selling a 1349 horue xxlw wing. I use the 890 horue h10 wing and the speed is more interesting, but I take off at 8-9 knots with a sail of 9.6. lokefoil has a good policy the performance 890 wing takes off from 9 knots, and the race wing L-870 from 6 knots.

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airsail said..
Not quite the same but in this vid they show how Moses surf wings fit the Phantasm fuselage

This link works better

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

ZeroVix said..
Up close look of the new SS wings.

They're selling bull**** sometimes though, really, you dont need a big foil te use small sails. I often ride 2m2 smaller than other foilers, last friday I was out with 4.2 on the foil when the slalom windsurfers weren't planing on 8.6. I was on a 900cm2 and I'm on the heavier side with 95kgs and 194cm tall.

It just gets me really worked up that all the slingshot croud always start yelling bigger front wing whatever the question. There's plenty of times when bigger front wing is the solution to a problem, but wanting to ride a smaller sail isnt it. You need a more powerful foil (and adequate technique), and that can be achieved in numerous ways, in my opinion more effectively than by just increasing the front wing size. Greg and Emily are 2 of the best foilers in the world, but I'm sure they'd ride equally small sail sizes using smaller wings, and having the same fun, if not more in certain conditions (although, having personally never sailed in the Gorge, I couldnt comment on that and I'm quite sure they're spot on).

Still haven't seen a video of anyone free foiling in 5-10 knots on a 900cm2 wing with a smallish rig?
Bigger front wings are also more than just easier with a small rig for the intermediate foiler, it will help them through the gybing learning curve and confidence to try other transitions etc.

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

WhiteofHeart said..

ZeroVix said..
Up close look of the new SS wings.

They're selling bull**** sometimes though, really, you dont need a big foil te use small sails. I often ride 2m2 smaller than other foilers, last friday I was out with 4.2 on the foil when the slalom windsurfers weren't planing on 8.6. I was on a 900cm2 and I'm on the heavier side with 95kgs and 194cm tall.

It just gets me really worked up that all the slingshot croud always start yelling bigger front wing whatever the question. There's plenty of times when bigger front wing is the solution to a problem, but wanting to ride a smaller sail isnt it. You need a more powerful foil (and adequate technique), and that can be achieved in numerous ways, in my opinion more effectively than by just increasing the front wing size. Greg and Emily are 2 of the best foilers in the world, but I'm sure they'd ride equally small sail sizes using smaller wings, and having the same fun, if not more in certain conditions (although, having personally never sailed in the Gorge, I couldnt comment on that and I'm quite sure they're spot on).

Still haven't seen a video of anyone free foiling in 5-10 knots on a 900cm2 wing with a smallish rig?
Bigger front wings are also more than just easier with a small rig for the intermediate foiler, it will help them through the gybing learning curve and confidence to try other transitions etc.

I havent seen anyone freefoiling with a small rig in 5-10 knots in general? I can get up in 8 and keep flying in 7 knots with this 900cm2 foil and 7.0 for my 95kg. Getting foiling in 5-10 knots with a small (<5.0) sail is not possible for someone of normal weight and size. I think I'm able to get through lulls of 8-9 knots with my 5.7, but under 8 knots is just not gonna happen, independent of wing size.

The best windfoilers rig around 4m smaller than a windsurfer would in light winds. In 7-10 knots this would still amount to 11m or 12m minus 4 = 7 or 8 square meters, which I think is achievable independent of wing choice.

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CoreAS said..

WhiteofHeart said..

ZeroVix said..
Up close look of the new SS wings.

They're selling bull**** sometimes though, really, you dont need a big foil te use small sails. I often ride 2m2 smaller than other foilers, last friday I was out with 4.2 on the foil when the slalom windsurfers weren't planing on 8.6. I was on a 900cm2 and I'm on the heavier side with 95kgs and 194cm tall.

It just gets me really worked up that all the slingshot croud always start yelling bigger front wing whatever the question. There's plenty of times when bigger front wing is the solution to a problem, but wanting to ride a smaller sail isnt it. You need a more powerful foil (and adequate technique), and that can be achieved in numerous ways, in my opinion more effectively than by just increasing the front wing size. Greg and Emily are 2 of the best foilers in the world, but I'm sure they'd ride equally small sail sizes using smaller wings, and having the same fun, if not more in certain conditions (although, having personally never sailed in the Gorge, I couldnt comment on that and I'm quite sure they're spot on).

Still haven't seen a video of anyone free foiling in 5-10 knots on a 900cm2 wing with a smallish rig?
Bigger front wings are also more than just easier with a small rig for the intermediate foiler, it will help them through the gybing learning curve and confidence to try other transitions etc.

Locally I foil quote often with 2 other guys, one is on a slingshot i76, I'm on a Fanatic Flow 1000, and the other guy is on the Manta foil with a 770cm2 front wing.

The guy on the 770cm wing foils just as early as both of us on larger wings if not earlier, just because he is a better sailor, even tho he's probably 10kg heavier. I'm talking foiling in 13kts with a 4.9m sail, and <10kts on <6m.

I'm also yet to see anyone freefoiling on any sized wing in <10kts with a small rig... for me a small rig is <5m.

Well yes I can free foil in 5-10 with a 5.8 and I was 92 kg at the time with the infinity 99

another local rider here can foil in 5-12 with a 5.6 on the FS115 with infinity 99
(we have videos and photos etc...one thing to say it another to prove it).
maybe you guys should use bigger wings sounds like you small higher aspect wings are holding you back?

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..
Well yes I can free foil in 5-10 with a 5.8 and I was 92 kg at the time with the infinity 99

another local rider here can foil in 5-12 with a 5.6 on the FS115 with infinity 99
(we have videos and photos etc...one thing to say it another to prove it).
maybe you guys should use bigger wings sounds like you small higher aspect wings are holding you back?

I think you need a wind meter. I don't think even the IqFoil guys are realistically foiling in 5kts.. You realise that 5kts is literally barely above walking speed? The energy you can extract from wind is hugely non-linear, like in an idea world you might get say from a 5.8m sail:
5kts = 35 watts (barely enough to light a lightbulb)
8kts = 146 watts (now we are talking, but still not much to go on)
12kts = 491 watts (okay noone doubts you can probably foil in 12kts)

You are probably realistically sailing in around 9-12kts. Maybe you can get through an occasional 5kt lull, but I can also foil through a 5kt lul, there is just no way to sustain sailing unless rely on pumping the board constantly.

Locally we have a wind meter at the sailing club that I sail out the front of, so the wind meter is very close to the actual sailing spot. There is noone foiling in 5kts regardless of gear, even foiling moths.

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swoosh said..

CoreAS said..
Well yes I can free foil in 5-10 with a 5.8 and I was 92 kg at the time with the infinity 99

another local rider here can foil in 5-12 with a 5.6 on the FS115 with infinity 99
(we have videos and photos etc...one thing to say it another to prove it).
maybe you guys should use bigger wings sounds like you small higher aspect wings are holding you back?

I think you need a wind meter. I don't think even the IqFoil guys are realistically foiling in 5kts.. You realise that 5kts is literally barely above walking speed?

You are probably realistically sailing in around 9-12kts. Maybe you can get through an occasional lull, but I can also foil through a 5kt lull.

Locally we have a wind meter at the sailing club that I sail out the front of, so the wind meter is very close to the actual sailing spot. There is noone foiling in 5kts regardless of gear, even foiling moths.

Didn't say lift in 5 knots. You need 10 to fly and can easily foil through 5-7 sections.
I'll post a couple of videos so you can see. By the way I foil on a lake as well (no salty float)

Yeah no kidding, I can pump onto the foil in 10kts with a 5.8, and I could make it through 0kt lull if I had some board speed, does that mean I can foil in 0-10kts with a 1000cm2 front wing? I know I can pump onto the foil in 13kts with a 4.7, and maybe with some more practise and a more powerful style sail, I could lower this to maybe even 11-12kts.

Videos are nice but they mean nothing without wind meter readings. Gopros make mast high waves look shoulder high, I wouldn't rely on them to judge wind speed. Heck if there are whitecaps I'm on a 4.2m.

But the issue with big fat wings like an i99 is that they hold you back because they are much less efficient, and therefore you can't build apparently wind apparently wind. Apparent wind = more power = more speed = ability to fly through lulls.

Lets not confuse good marketing with actual performance.

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swoosh said..
Yeah no kidding, I can pump onto the foil in 10kts with a 5.8, and I could make it through 0kt lull if I had some board speed, does that mean I can foil in 0-10kts with a 1000cm2 front wing?

Videos mean nothing without wind meter readings. Gopros make mast high waves look shoulder high, I wouldn't rely on them to judge wind speed. Heck if there are whitecaps I'm on a 4.2m

But the issue with big fat wings like an i99 is that they hold you back because they are much less efficient, and therefore you can't build apparently wind apparently wind. Apparent wind = more power = more speed = ability to fly through lulls.

No convincing you is there

anyway, think I made my point and wind meter or not you can clearly see it's really light wind so I'm not going back on forth on a knot here are there. So I'll leave you this...

8.2 and 5.6 both on infinity 99 the Local guys same height and weight both caught a puffs and got rides, that's all that matters.
Time for me to go foiling on my slow, fat, boring low aspect slingshot wings.

Honestly not sure what you are trying to convince me of? You can pump an i99 onto the foil with a 5.8m sail in 10kts. Sure I believe you? I've no doubt you can cause I can do the same thing on a 1000cm2 medium aspect foil.

I'm with Swoosh, in addition, say we're both flying in 10knots with 5.7 sails and we both at the same time hit a 5 knot lull, I'm certain I would keep going far far longer on the 900cm2 wing than one would on the I99. In those conditions (too little wind to have sailpower), its no longer the foils lift, but the foils drag which counts. Maybe in terms of time (in seconds) the score would be similar, but given that the small wing does about twice the distance in that time the odds that you can reach the next gust are so much higher.

At 78 kgs. ready to breach, I was very happy with a 600 sq cm foil and 6.0 in 7-11 knot breeze. Yes, lots of pumping to fly, but easy cruising once up.

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swoosh said..
Yeah no kidding, I can pump onto the foil in 10kts with a 5.8, and I could make it through 0kt lull if I had some board speed, does that mean I can foil in 0-10kts with a 1000cm2 front wing? I know I can pump onto the foil in 13kts with a 4.7, and maybe with some more practise and a more powerful style sail, I could lower this to maybe even 11-12kts.

Videos are nice but they mean nothing without wind meter readings. Gopros make mast high waves look shoulder high, I wouldn't rely on them to judge wind speed. Heck if there are whitecaps I'm on a 4.2m.

But the issue with big fat wings like an i99 is that they hold you back because they are much less efficient, and therefore you can't build apparently wind apparently wind. Apparent wind = more power = more speed = ability to fly through lulls.

Lets not confuse good marketing with actual performance.

I believe Dean (CoreAS) - unlike you, he's a super-experienced and proficient foiler- he's dropped more than 30 videos in the last 2 to 3 years showing him and his Texas crew foiling incredibly light winds, often without any whitecaps In sight and in freshwater.
He's also humble

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..

swoosh said..
Yeah no kidding, I can pump onto the foil in 10kts with a 5.8, and I could make it through 0kt lull if I had some board speed, does that mean I can foil in 0-10kts with a 1000cm2 front wing? I know I can pump onto the foil in 13kts with a 4.7, and maybe with some more practise and a more powerful style sail, I could lower this to maybe even 11-12kts.

Videos are nice but they mean nothing without wind meter readings. Gopros make mast high waves look shoulder high, I wouldn't rely on them to judge wind speed. Heck if there are whitecaps I'm on a 4.2m.

But the issue with big fat wings like an i99 is that they hold you back because they are much less efficient, and therefore you can't build apparently wind apparently wind. Apparent wind = more power = more speed = ability to fly through lulls.

Lets not confuse good marketing with actual performance.

I believe Dean (CoreAS) - unlike you, he's a super-experienced and proficient foiler- he's dropped more than 30 videos in the last 2 to 3 years showing him and his Texas crew foiling incredibly light winds, often without any whitecaps In sight and in freshwater.
He's also humble

Ah I see you must have got to the section in the slingshot team marketing handbook, where it states, if all else fails try personal attacks.


Unfortunately I had not realised that foiling experience was measured in the number of videos released. If only I was so humble that I posted videos weekly of my foiling exploits. By that measure I've never actually even foiled, so I should probably leave this thread to the experts. In reality, I can consistently foil gybe, duck gybe, jump, and getting close to upwind and downwind360s so I'd say I'm probably no longer a beginner.

I've had many foiling sessions in Moreton bay on 4.7m and even a few on a 4.2m sail with no whitecaps in sight, and sailed next to people on low and high aspect foils. Usually I'm on the smallest sail out there, with the exception of one guy who is usually on something similar and he's on an even higher aspect 770cm2 foil.

On topic, all I'm saying is as per what whiteofheart said, Greg and Emily are expert foilers. And let's just all be honest here, all the videos including yours are 90% about showcasing rider skill level, and within reason not really related to gear performance. It's windsurfing marketing 101, get the best riders you can and showcase them doing cool stuff so the public will buy your stuff. Based on that we should probably all be riding MB boards and Moses Foils.

Every wing has its pros and cons and each do something different then others(i think we can
all agree on that).

The low or medium aspect wings are super easy to learn on since you can go really slow before you come off the foil, sure maybe you can glide longer in 5kts("no sail power") with a high aspect foil but learning carve, step or duck gybes is easier on low aspect wings, and they float through downwind 360s nicely without having to go super fast, even Wyatt Miller said he's probably not doing DW 360s on the I65. Sure if your crazy skilled like WOH you could make most wings work great
And if your jumping big high aspect wings will likely be too much surface area coming down leading to breaking gear.
I still don't think high aspect wings will ever be able to capture the swell energy and stay on the swell to ride it out like surfers when conditions are small mushy waves under 1m.
In Dean's aka CoreAS videos you can tell he really benefits from the large i99 in light wind and he has learned how to pump it up really efficiently for a big guy and he can put a lot of force into the wing which transfers back into lift like a springboard. Someone my weight @150lbs could not put as much force into that wing. I find the i76 is big enough for me in terms of speed, float through lulls and maneuverability. I can foil in 6-15kts on a 5.2 wave sail, I can pump my 3.5m up in 12-14kts on a 5'10 105L board(fresh water). 5.2 is my biggest sail I use this time of year. I'm hitting 19.17kts in 15kts of wind on the i76 and the 5.2 but the goal really isn't back and forth up wind downwind speed for me. To me that's not exactly fun.

Select to expand quote

swoosh said..

azymuth said..

swoosh said..
Yeah no kidding, I can pump onto the foil in 10kts with a 5.8, and I could make it through 0kt lull if I had some board speed, does that mean I can foil in 0-10kts with a 1000cm2 front wing? I know I can pump onto the foil in 13kts with a 4.7, and maybe with some more practise and a more powerful style sail, I could lower this to maybe even 11-12kts.

Videos are nice but they mean nothing without wind meter readings. Gopros make mast high waves look shoulder high, I wouldn't rely on them to judge wind speed. Heck if there are whitecaps I'm on a 4.2m.

But the issue with big fat wings like an i99 is that they hold you back because they are much less efficient, and therefore you can't build apparently wind apparently wind. Apparent wind = more power = more speed = ability to fly through lulls.

Lets not confuse good marketing with actual performance.

I believe Dean (CoreAS) - unlike you, he's a super-experienced and proficient foiler- he's dropped more than 30 videos in the last 2 to 3 years showing him and his Texas crew foiling incredibly light winds, often without any whitecaps In sight and in freshwater.
He's also humble

Ah I see you must have got to the section in the slingshot team marketing handbook, where it states, if all else fails try personal attacks.


Unfortunately I had not realised that foiling experience was measured in the number of videos released. If only I was so humble that I posted videos weekly of my foiling exploits. By that measure I've never actually even foiled, so I should probably leave this thread to the experts. In reality, I can consistently foil gybe, duck gybe, jump, and getting close to upwind and downwind360s so I'd say I'm probably no longer a beginner.

I've had many foiling sessions in Moreton bay on 4.7m and even a few on a 4.2m sail with no whitecaps in sight, and sailed next to people on low and high aspect foils. Usually I'm on the smallest sail out there, with the exception of one guy who is usually on something similar and he's on an even higher aspect 770cm2 foil.

On topic, all I'm saying is as per what whiteofheart said, Greg and Emily are expert foilers. And let's just all be honest here, all the videos including yours are 90% about showcasing rider skill level, and within reason not really related to gear performance. It's windsurfing marketing 101, get the best riders you can and showcase them doing cool stuff so the public will buy your stuff. Based on that we should probably all be riding MB boards and Moses Foils.

I find it amusing that foilers have to constantly bash slingshot foils like they have an axe to grind, its borderline trolling and so that is what I was originally answering back to per WOH comment.

You asked that you have never seen someone free foiling in less than 10 knots etc etc. so I posted a couple of videos and you still want argue a point of having a wind meter at your local spot which means nothing when you think about it, unless you have a wind meter in front of your face the whole time you are foiling then you are guestimating like the rest of us.

The closest we can show is videos or pics and you are still arguing the fact with no proof yourself.

I have no idea how much you weigh or your local conditions you foil in, but if you and WOH are foiling in 5-10 MPH as per my videos which is 4.3 knots to 8.6 knots with a 900/1000 cm2 and 5.8. then shows us your vids, I am generally interested as I could never get my high aspect foil to work in anything over 11/12knots

Between JJ and myself we have posted a lot of footage covering the entire infinity wing spectrum so its not marketing BS, the wings work and they work extremely well.

Select to expand quote

CAN17 said..
Every wing has its pros and cons and each do something different then others(i think we can
all agree on that).ind on the i76 and the 5.2 but the goal really isn't back and forth up wind downwind speed for me. To me that's not exactly fun.

Yes.

I think 1500 is a great balance of speed, early lift and easy gybing. Bigger than that I find difficult to gybe when the wind picks up. However, as WOH pointed out lift is not proportional to surface area and aspect ratio is a big factor. I personally need to experiment more with high aspect wings and rigging a little bigger.

I did try race gear yesterday for the first time and that ain't easy. Lots of effort holding up and pumping a 7.5m race sail, but once you get going it's pretty sweet. If riding my freeride gear is like driving a jeep, then that race gear is like driving a train. Anyways, respect to all those that do it.

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

swoosh said..

azymuth said..

swoosh said..
Yeah no kidding, I can pump onto the foil in 10kts with a 5.8, and I could make it through 0kt lull if I had some board speed, does that mean I can foil in 0-10kts with a 1000cm2 front wing? I know I can pump onto the foil in 13kts with a 4.7, and maybe with some more practise and a more powerful style sail, I could lower this to maybe even 11-12kts.

Videos are nice but they mean nothing without wind meter readings. Gopros make mast high waves look shoulder high, I wouldn't rely on them to judge wind speed. Heck if there are whitecaps I'm on a 4.2m.

But the issue with big fat wings like an i99 is that they hold you back because they are much less efficient, and therefore you can't build apparently wind apparently wind. Apparent wind = more power = more speed = ability to fly through lulls.

Lets not confuse good marketing with actual performance.

I believe Dean (CoreAS) - unlike you, he's a super-experienced and proficient foiler- he's dropped more than 30 videos in the last 2 to 3 years showing him and his Texas crew foiling incredibly light winds, often without any whitecaps In sight and in freshwater.
He's also humble

Ah I see you must have got to the section in the slingshot team marketing handbook, where it states, if all else fails try personal attacks.


Unfortunately I had not realised that foiling experience was measured in the number of videos released. If only I was so humble that I posted videos weekly of my foiling exploits. By that measure I've never actually even foiled, so I should probably leave this thread to the experts. In reality, I can consistently foil gybe, duck gybe, jump, and getting close to upwind and downwind360s so I'd say I'm probably no longer a beginner.

I've had many foiling sessions in Moreton bay on 4.7m and even a few on a 4.2m sail with no whitecaps in sight, and sailed next to people on low and high aspect foils. Usually I'm on the smallest sail out there, with the exception of one guy who is usually on something similar and he's on an even higher aspect 770cm2 foil.

On topic, all I'm saying is as per what whiteofheart said, Greg and Emily are expert foilers. And let's just all be honest here, all the videos including yours are 90% about showcasing rider skill level, and within reason not really related to gear performance. It's windsurfing marketing 101, get the best riders you can and showcase them doing cool stuff so the public will buy your stuff. Based on that we should probably all be riding MB boards and Moses Foils.

I find it amusing that foilers have to constantly bash slingshot foils like they have an axe to grind, its borderline trolling and so that is what I was originally answering back to per WOH comment.

You asked that you have never seen someone free foiling in less than 10 knots etc etc. so I posted a couple of videos and you still want argue a point of having a wind meter at your local spot which means nothing when you think about it, unless you have a wind meter in front of your face the whole time you are foiling then you are guestimating like the rest of us.

The closest we can show is videos or pics and you are still arguing the fact with no proof yourself.

I have no idea how much you weigh or your local conditions you foil in, but if you and WOH are foiling in 5-10 MPH as per my videos which is 4.3 knots to 8.6 knots with a 900/1000 cm2 and 5.8. then shows us your vids, I am generally interested as I could never get my high aspect foil to work in anything over 11/12knots

Between JJ and myself we have posted a lot of footage covering the entire infinity wing spectrum so its not marketing BS, the wings work and they work extremely well.

I'm not trying to bash anything. I think the low aspect type wings definately have a place, for example if swells or waves are involved, for the first 5 sessions to learn on and for easy 360's and the like. However, I believe that for most freeriding the I99 and I84 are just plain too big because of the decreasing performance to lift ratio as you keep sizing up. The I76 might be a very nice size, I have tried it, and it didnt suit my riding, but I think for a lot of people it does. I've found a 900-1000cm2 high aspect will give similar, if not better performance for the average freerider exploring the lake, doing some small jumps and practicing the jibes, trying to make most of the lighter days.

www.instagram.com/tv/ByP0omlhJ7m/?igshid=1mwjacgdfd2v6

This is me in light winds with 4.9, I pump up in a 10-12 knot gust, dont know what the rest is. With a 5.8 I might be able to scrape a knot off, but I dont think I'd come up in less than 10 knots. Ofcourse sailing through lulls is a different matter, but neither of us can keep going indefinately in a 4-7 knot lull, maybe in 8-9 knot lulls it is doable to maintain sail preassure in a 5.8, I dont know, I dont like to rig as big as 5.8 for the freefoil that often and would rather pickup my racekit. I dont believe your 5.8 works in 4-9 knots. If there is no preassure in your sail, you're just not gonna keep flying, and thats the same for you and me. In addition, a wing like the I99 is too big to effectively pump and keep going on foil power alone. I'm quite an ok pump foiler, but use a 1480 high aspect wingsurfing foil for that, I've found even 1800 low aspect and 1780 high aspect to be too slow for foilpumping, let alone something like the I99.

To go back on topic, I do think those Phantasms look nice, and I think we all kind of forget that with the phantasm lineup Slingshot is also going to offer a bunch of high aspect wings so that the foil will fit a wide variety of rider.

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

CoreAS said..

swoosh said..

azymuth said..

swoosh said..
Yeah no kidding, I can pump onto the foil in 10kts with a 5.8, and I could make it through 0kt lull if I had some board speed, does that mean I can foil in 0-10kts with a 1000cm2 front wing? I know I can pump onto the foil in 13kts with a 4.7, and maybe with some more practise and a more powerful style sail, I could lower this to maybe even 11-12kts.

Videos are nice but they mean nothing without wind meter readings. Gopros make mast high waves look shoulder high, I wouldn't rely on them to judge wind speed. Heck if there are whitecaps I'm on a 4.2m.

But the issue with big fat wings like an i99 is that they hold you back because they are much less efficient, and therefore you can't build apparently wind apparently wind. Apparent wind = more power = more speed = ability to fly through lulls.

Lets not confuse good marketing with actual performance.

I believe Dean (CoreAS) - unlike you, he's a super-experienced and proficient foiler- he's dropped more than 30 videos in the last 2 to 3 years showing him and his Texas crew foiling incredibly light winds, often without any whitecaps In sight and in freshwater.
He's also humble

Ah I see you must have got to the section in the slingshot team marketing handbook, where it states, if all else fails try personal attacks.


Unfortunately I had not realised that foiling experience was measured in the number of videos released. If only I was so humble that I posted videos weekly of my foiling exploits. By that measure I've never actually even foiled, so I should probably leave this thread to the experts. In reality, I can consistently foil gybe, duck gybe, jump, and getting close to upwind and downwind360s so I'd say I'm probably no longer a beginner.

I've had many foiling sessions in Moreton bay on 4.7m and even a few on a 4.2m sail with no whitecaps in sight, and sailed next to people on low and high aspect foils. Usually I'm on the smallest sail out there, with the exception of one guy who is usually on something similar and he's on an even higher aspect 770cm2 foil.

On topic, all I'm saying is as per what whiteofheart said, Greg and Emily are expert foilers. And let's just all be honest here, all the videos including yours are 90% about showcasing rider skill level, and within reason not really related to gear performance. It's windsurfing marketing 101, get the best riders you can and showcase them doing cool stuff so the public will buy your stuff. Based on that we should probably all be riding MB boards and Moses Foils.

I find it amusing that foilers have to constantly bash slingshot foils like they have an axe to grind, its borderline trolling and so that is what I was originally answering back to per WOH comment.

You asked that you have never seen someone free foiling in less than 10 knots etc etc. so I posted a couple of videos and you still want argue a point of having a wind meter at your local spot which means nothing when you think about it, unless you have a wind meter in front of your face the whole time you are foiling then you are guestimating like the rest of us.

The closest we can show is videos or pics and you are still arguing the fact with no proof yourself.

I have no idea how much you weigh or your local conditions you foil in, but if you and WOH are foiling in 5-10 MPH as per my videos which is 4.3 knots to 8.6 knots with a 900/1000 cm2 and 5.8. then shows us your vids, I am generally interested as I could never get my high aspect foil to work in anything over 11/12knots

Between JJ and myself we have posted a lot of footage covering the entire infinity wing spectrum so its not marketing BS, the wings work and they work extremely well.

I'm not trying to bash anything. I think the low aspect type wings definately have a place, for example if swells or waves are involved, for the first 5 sessions to learn on and for easy 360's and the like. However, I believe that for most freeriding the I99 and I84 are just plain too big because of the decreasing performance to lift ratio as you keep sizing up. The I76 might be a very nice size, I have tried it, and it didnt suit my riding, but I think for a lot of people it does. I've found a 900-1000cm2 high aspect will give similar, if not better performance for the average freerider exploring the lake, doing some small jumps and practicing the jibes, trying to make most of the lighter days.

www.instagram.com/tv/ByP0omlhJ7m/?igshid=1mwjacgdfd2v6

This is me in light winds with 4.9, I pump up in a 10-12 knot gust, dont know what the rest is. With a 5.8 I might be able to scrape a knot off, but I dont think I'd come up in less than 10 knots. Ofcourse sailing through lulls is a different matter, but neither of us can keep going indefinately in a 4-7 knot lull, maybe in 8-9 knot lulls it is doable to maintain sail preassure in a 5.8, I dont know, I dont like to rig as big as 5.8 for the freefoil that often and would rather pickup my racekit. I dont believe your 5.8 works in 4-9 knots. If there is no preassure in your sail, you're just not gonna keep flying, and thats the same for you and me. In addition, a wing like the I99 is too big to effectively pump and keep going on foil power alone. I'm quite an ok pump foiler, but use a 1480 high aspect wingsurfing foil for that, I've found even 1800 low aspect and 1780 high aspect to be too slow for foilpumping, let alone something like the I99.

To go back on topic, I do think those Phantasms look nice, and I think we all kind of forget that with the phantasm lineup Slingshot is also going to offer a bunch of high aspect wings so that the foil will fit a wide variety of rider.

That's a lot of pumps Bart :) I can do that once in a session but then I am knackered. I think the experience of many, over the past few years, is that introduction of the larger wings got people going earlier (esp beginners) and that the people on larger wings got much more lightwind foil time than their race foil counterparts, excluding those expert formula dudes foiling on 7+m cambered sails.

Could these larger freeride wings be compensating for lack of skill, extra bodyweight or lack of fitness?

As people get better they will optimize their kit for the style of riding they like and the conditions they typically ride in, esp with the number of new wing designs that will be coming out. There is a lot of difference between an oldschool race foil and a modern highaspect free ride foil.

I will say that in swell, I prefer to have something a bit faster than the infinity 76.

Select to expand quote

ZeroVix said..
Up close look of the new SS wings.

I want the 125 cm. plus mast so I can finally try out my new Slingshot parachute!

Big foil wings really make wing foiling a lot easier. I used the i99 to learn and found it a lot easier to get up on foil than my i84. Bottom line -- IMO, start with a large volume board, a big foil wing and a large wind wing and save yourself a lot of frustration and grief. For wind foiling I learned with the i76 -- no problem getting on foil. For wing foiling it's a whole different story. One other thing -- to start with use the wing more like a kite rather than a windsurf sail. Latter when you are on foil and more comfortable you can bring the wing down beside you and treat it more like a windsurf sail.

At the end of the day if you prefer high aspect wings that's your choice, if you prefer lower aspect wings that's also your decision.
I have foiled many different wings and foils and I know what I prefer. I can pump the i99 through 5-6 knot holes for hundreds of feet all afternoon long and reconnect to the next puff.
Also it really has nothing to do with sail pressure either at that point because there isn't any! You are pumping the FOIL like you see dock foilers they are using the energy stored in the foil wing and a wing with 2400cm2 will store much more than 900cm2. Will it be as fast, no! But you can keep going even when it nearly stalls out.

Back to the topic, the phantasm looks awesome and I agree the longer masts look to be just the ticket especially in steep chop and swell, having that extra mast length means you can push gybing and other transitions like 360 without foiling out. Just have to watch out for those shallow spots