The shallows are certainly a problem, but where I foil in SF Bay, there are wandering seals in the fall/winter, and some years, harbor seals and even sea otters.
I don't feel too bad slicing baitfish or smelt, but mammals are a different story.
Explains why I tie a floppy leash, use a humming foil, and a 65 cm mast even though I have a 90 cm mast in the van.

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..
At the end of the day if you prefer high aspect wings that's your choice, if you prefer lower aspect wings that's also your decision.
I have foiled many different wings and foils and I know what I prefer. I can pump the i99 through 5-6 knot holes for hundreds of feet all afternoon long and reconnect to the next puff.
Also it really has nothing to do with sail pressure either at that point because there isn't any! You are pumping the FOIL like you see dock foilers they are using the energy stored in the foil wing and a wing with 2400cm2 will store much more than 900cm2. Will it be as fast, no! But you can keep going even when it nearly stalls out.

Back to the topic, the phantasm looks awesome and I agree the longer masts look to be just the ticket especially in steep chop and swell, having that extra mast length means you can push gybing and other transitions like 360 without foiling out. Just have to watch out for those shallow spots

Wings don't store energy... sorry but they just dont! They convert your pumping energy into forward velocity. How effectively and efficiently they do that is a function of a lot more than just how many cm2 you got. Slingshot have good marketing, and have a very simplified lineup where they push a simple message that bigger = better for light winds. In reality its much more complicated then that and there is many more ways to tackle the problem, all with pro's and cons (tho some have more pros then others).

Honestly not really trying to bash or troll you guys or start an arguement, it just grinds me when people try to pass of blatantly false statements. Not trying to tell you how you should enjoy your foiling, feel free to do whatever you like, just leave the false news to the politicians.

I know you like videos, so here is one comparing pumping a slingshot i99 vs a high aspect wing.


The relevant table is below. There is obviously more to foiling then just pure performance, and some aspects of performance that are harder to quantify such as roll rate/turning etc.

Select to expand quote

swoosh said..

CoreAS said..
At the end of the day if you prefer high aspect wings that's your choice, if you prefer lower aspect wings that's also your decision.
I have foiled many different wings and foils and I know what I prefer. I can pump the i99 through 5-6 knot holes for hundreds of feet all afternoon long and reconnect to the next puff.
Also it really has nothing to do with sail pressure either at that point because there isn't any! You are pumping the FOIL like you see dock foilers they are using the energy stored in the foil wing and a wing with 2400cm2 will store much more than 900cm2. Will it be as fast, no! But you can keep going even when it nearly stalls out.

Back to the topic, the phantasm looks awesome and I agree the longer masts look to be just the ticket especially in steep chop and swell, having that extra mast length means you can push gybing and other transitions like 360 without foiling out. Just have to watch out for those shallow spots

Wings don't store energy... sorry but they just dont! They convert your pumping energy into forward velocity. How effectively and efficiently they do that is a function of a lot more than just how many cm2 you got. Slingshot have good marketing, and have a very simplified lineup where they push a simple message that bigger = better for light winds. In reality its much more complicated then that and there is many more ways to tackle the problem, all with pro's and cons (tho some have more pros then others).

Honestly not really trying to bash or troll you guys or start an arguement, it just grinds me when people try to pass of blatantly false statements. Not trying to tell you how you should enjoy your foiling, feel free to do whatever you like, just leave the false news to the politicians.

I know you like videos, so here is one comparing pumping a slingshot i99 vs a high aspect wing.

The relevant table is below. There is obviously more to foiling then just pure performance, and some aspects of performance that are harder to quantify such as roll rate/turning etc.

At the end of the day, I'm having fun in the light stuff, I know what works and what doesn't for my local area (with clear proof).

We have tested many, many foil brands with hundreds of testing hours over the past 4 years in our collective group.

Its a shame its grinds you so badly by so many foilers using Slingshot foils but I can't help you with that.

I just realised you are a slingshot retailer.. I knew I was wasting my time.

Carry on!

Select to expand quote

swoosh said..
I just realised you are a slingshot retailer.. I knew I was wasting my time.

Carry on!

Sounds like you need help with a low wind wing, I know just the person to assist you

+1

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

swoosh said..

CoreAS said..
At the end of the day if you prefer high aspect wings that's your choice, if you prefer lower aspect wings that's also your decision.
I have foiled many different wings and foils and I know what I prefer. I can pump the i99 through 5-6 knot holes for hundreds of feet all afternoon long and reconnect to the next puff.
Also it really has nothing to do with sail pressure either at that point because there isn't any! You are pumping the FOIL like you see dock foilers they are using the energy stored in the foil wing and a wing with 2400cm2 will store much more than 900cm2. Will it be as fast, no! But you can keep going even when it nearly stalls out.

Back to the topic, the phantasm looks awesome and I agree the longer masts look to be just the ticket especially in steep chop and swell, having that extra mast length means you can push gybing and other transitions like 360 without foiling out. Just have to watch out for those shallow spots

Wings don't store energy... sorry but they just dont! They convert your pumping energy into forward velocity. How effectively and efficiently they do that is a function of a lot more than just how many cm2 you got. Slingshot have good marketing, and have a very simplified lineup where they push a simple message that bigger = better for light winds. In reality its much more complicated then that and there is many more ways to tackle the problem, all with pro's and cons (tho some have more pros then others).

Honestly not really trying to bash or troll you guys or start an arguement, it just grinds me when people try to pass of blatantly false statements. Not trying to tell you how you should enjoy your foiling, feel free to do whatever you like, just leave the false news to the politicians.

I know you like videos, so here is one comparing pumping a slingshot i99 vs a high aspect wing.

The relevant table is below. There is obviously more to foiling then just pure performance, and some aspects of performance that are harder to quantify such as roll rate/turning etc.

At the end of the day, I'm having fun in the light stuff, I know what works and what doesn't for my local area (with clear proof).

We have tested many, many foil brands with hundreds of testing hours over the past 4 years in our collective group.

Its a shame its grinds you so badly by so many foilers using Slingshot foils but I can't help you with that.

Experience, ability/skill, exhaustive real world testing - all over-rated I reckon

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..

CoreAS said..

swoosh said..

CoreAS said..
At the end of the day if you prefer high aspect wings that's your choice, if you prefer lower aspect wings that's also your decision.
I have foiled many different wings and foils and I know what I prefer. I can pump the i99 through 5-6 knot holes for hundreds of feet all afternoon long and reconnect to the next puff.
Also it really has nothing to do with sail pressure either at that point because there isn't any! You are pumping the FOIL like you see dock foilers they are using the energy stored in the foil wing and a wing with 2400cm2 will store much more than 900cm2. Will it be as fast, no! But you can keep going even when it nearly stalls out.

Back to the topic, the phantasm looks awesome and I agree the longer masts look to be just the ticket especially in steep chop and swell, having that extra mast length means you can push gybing and other transitions like 360 without foiling out. Just have to watch out for those shallow spots

Wings don't store energy... sorry but they just dont! They convert your pumping energy into forward velocity. How effectively and efficiently they do that is a function of a lot more than just how many cm2 you got. Slingshot have good marketing, and have a very simplified lineup where they push a simple message that bigger = better for light winds. In reality its much more complicated then that and there is many more ways to tackle the problem, all with pro's and cons (tho some have more pros then others).

Honestly not really trying to bash or troll you guys or start an arguement, it just grinds me when people try to pass of blatantly false statements. Not trying to tell you how you should enjoy your foiling, feel free to do whatever you like, just leave the false news to the politicians.

I know you like videos, so here is one comparing pumping a slingshot i99 vs a high aspect wing.

The relevant table is below. There is obviously more to foiling then just pure performance, and some aspects of performance that are harder to quantify such as roll rate/turning etc.

At the end of the day, I'm having fun in the light stuff, I know what works and what doesn't for my local area (with clear proof).

We have tested many, many foil brands with hundreds of testing hours over the past 4 years in our collective group.

Its a shame its grinds you so badly by so many foilers using Slingshot foils but I can't help you with that.

Experience, ability/skill, exhaustive real world testing - all over-rated I reckon

No more "real world" videos of the WA crew shredding then JJ, that's classed as BS marketing apparently??
looks like the phantasm 730 wing will be right down your guys alley in the swell, I like the sound of a longer mast but worried about hitting stuff, the lake is man made when the water levels drop, it becomes a mine field.

CoreAS said: "I like the sound of a longer mast but worried about hitting stuff. The lake is man made and when the water levels drop it becomes a mine field."

I foil at two different spots -- one shallow and one very deep. I'm going to purchase two masts -- one as long as I can find and the other a medium length mast. When I went from 70 cm. to 90 cm. I felt much more comfortable. Now I'm hoping the 90 cm. will be my short mast and a 125 cm. (if I can find one) will be my long mast -- fortunately I don't get air-sick.

Select to expand quote

dejavu said..
CoreAS said: "I like the sound of a longer mast but worried about hitting stuff. The lake is man made and when the water levels drop it becomes a mine field."

I foil at two different spots -- one shallow and one very deep. I'm going to purchase two masts -- one as long as I can find and the other a medium length mast. When I went from 70 cm. to 90 cm. I felt much more comfortable. Now I'm hoping the 90 cm. will be my short mast and a 125 cm. (if I can find one) will be my long mast -- fortunately I don't get air-sick.

Dejavu that's what I was thinking. We do have deeper areas that the 125 mast will work and in a good North wind we also get the steepest swell so it would work well there.
The other launch areas we use there are still old fence posts even a house foundations a few feet below the surface that we regularly foil over so a 90/92 mast will be a sensible mast length to use.

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

dejavu said..
CoreAS said: "I like the sound of a longer mast but worried about hitting stuff. The lake is man made and when the water levels drop it becomes a mine field."

I foil at two different spots -- one shallow and one very deep. I'm going to purchase two masts -- one as long as I can find and the other a medium length mast. When I went from 70 cm. to 90 cm. I felt much more comfortable. Now I'm hoping the 90 cm. will be my short mast and a 125 cm. (if I can find one) will be my long mast -- fortunately I don't get air-sick.

Dejavu that's what I was thinking. We do have deeper areas that the 125 mast will work and in a good North wind we also get the steepest swell so it would work well there.
The other launch areas we use there are still old fence posts even a house foundations a few feet below the surface that we regularly foil over so a 90/92 mast will be a sensible mast length to use.

Hey Core. Don't let naysayers bug ya! I've learned a huge amount from you and Azymuth this season learning how to foil and my personal experience with SS had yielded similar (and great) results. Like you, I started at the speed end of the spectrum but for various reasons wound up w/ SS and so glad I did. I feel I get 90% of the speed and 500% of the enjoyment with low aspect SS wings. I just can do so much with the i76 wing. What hasn't been discussed is actually how fast that setup is, maybe its my weight and we are blessed with high winds here in SF Bay, but I am consistently as fast or faster than slapper free riders. Maybe its the lack of friction and slapping all that chop?? Never going back to traditional windsurfing when I can have 5x the water time, do floaty, fluid maneuvers and blast upwind and down in conditions I used to need a formula board for.

I don't care if you are a SS retailer or the Pope. Keep it coming'!!

Select to expand quote

tswei99 said..

CoreAS said..

dejavu said..
CoreAS said: "I like the sound of a longer mast but worried about hitting stuff. The lake is man made and when the water levels drop it becomes a mine field."

I foil at two different spots -- one shallow and one very deep. I'm going to purchase two masts -- one as long as I can find and the other a medium length mast. When I went from 70 cm. to 90 cm. I felt much more comfortable. Now I'm hoping the 90 cm. will be my short mast and a 125 cm. (if I can find one) will be my long mast -- fortunately I don't get air-sick.

Dejavu that's what I was thinking. We do have deeper areas that the 125 mast will work and in a good North wind we also get the steepest swell so it would work well there.
The other launch areas we use there are still old fence posts even a house foundations a few feet below the surface that we regularly foil over so a 90/92 mast will be a sensible mast length to use.

Hey Core. Don't let naysayers bug ya! I've learned a huge amount from you and Azymuth this season learning how to foil and my personal experience with SS had yielded similar (and great) results. Like you, I started at the speed end of the spectrum but for various reasons wound up w/ SS and so glad I did. I feel I get 90% of the speed and 500% of the enjoyment with low aspect SS wings. I just can do so much with the i76 wing. What hasn't been discussed is actually how fast that setup is, maybe its my weight and we are blessed with high winds here in SF Bay, but I am consistently as fast or faster than slapper free riders. Maybe its the lack of friction and slapping all that chop?? Never going back to traditional windsurfing when I can have 5x the water time, do floaty, fluid maneuvers and blast upwind and down in conditions I used to need a formula board for.

I don't care if you are a SS retailer or the Pope. Keep it coming'!!

100% agree with this.

I've found the videos and general advice from the SS crew very helpful. I think we can all agree that viewing/writing/reading about foiling is far more interesting than arguing about it.

The thing with the tall masts if you don't ride them high they create a lot of drag. In swell and chop this is what is needed any other time it's just for a showing off . 125cm is a chiropractors wet dream That almost 5 feet after adding in the board. So go stand on a ladder at 5 feet then factor in your forward momentum then close your eyes and imagine being hooked in and losing control then catapulting over the front.

Keep the videos coming please

Select to expand quote

tswei99 said..

CoreAS said..

dejavu said..
CoreAS said: "I like the sound of a longer mast but worried about hitting stuff. The lake is man made and when the water levels drop it becomes a mine field."

I foil at two different spots -- one shallow and one very deep. I'm going to purchase two masts -- one as long as I can find and the other a medium length mast. When I went from 70 cm. to 90 cm. I felt much more comfortable. Now I'm hoping the 90 cm. will be my short mast and a 125 cm. (if I can find one) will be my long mast -- fortunately I don't get air-sick.

Dejavu that's what I was thinking. We do have deeper areas that the 125 mast will work and in a good North wind we also get the steepest swell so it would work well there.
The other launch areas we use there are still old fence posts even a house foundations a few feet below the surface that we regularly foil over so a 90/92 mast will be a sensible mast length to use.

Hey Core. Don't let naysayers bug ya! I've learned a huge amount from you and Azymuth this season learning how to foil and my personal experience with SS had yielded similar (and great) results. Like you, I started at the speed end of the spectrum but for various reasons wound up w/ SS and so glad I did. I feel I get 90% of the speed and 500% of the enjoyment with low aspect SS wings. I just can do so much with the i76 wing. What hasn't been discussed is actually how fast that setup is, maybe its my weight and we are blessed with high winds here in SF Bay, but I am consistently as fast or faster than slapper free riders. Maybe its the lack of friction and slapping all that chop?? Never going back to traditional windsurfing when I can have 5x the water time, do floaty, fluid maneuvers and blast upwind and down in conditions I used to need a formula board for.

I don't care if you are a SS retailer or the Pope. Keep it coming'!!

Thanks for the feedback tswei99 .. at the end of the day think we are all just passionate for foiling regardless of brands that we prefer!

I have lately gone back to foiling the i76 wing it seems to compliment the wizard 130 perfectly and I can really push it hard, so I can fully understand where you are coming from, its a very fun wing.

Gwarn, you are dead on with the drag of the 125, its bit of a catch 22... I am hoping there will be a good selection of masts lengths
seeing as the kite version has 92 & 102

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

tswei99 said..

CoreAS said..

dejavu said..
CoreAS said: "I like the sound of a longer mast but worried about hitting stuff. The lake is man made and when the water levels drop it becomes a mine field."

I foil at two different spots -- one shallow and one very deep. I'm going to purchase two masts -- one as long as I can find and the other a medium length mast. When I went from 70 cm. to 90 cm. I felt much more comfortable. Now I'm hoping the 90 cm. will be my short mast and a 125 cm. (if I can find one) will be my long mast -- fortunately I don't get air-sick.

Dejavu that's what I was thinking. We do have deeper areas that the 125 mast will work and in a good North wind we also get the steepest swell so it would work well there.
The other launch areas we use there are still old fence posts even a house foundations a few feet below the surface that we regularly foil over so a 90/92 mast will be a sensible mast length to use.

Hey Core. Don't let naysayers bug ya! I've learned a huge amount from you and Azymuth this season learning how to foil and my personal experience with SS had yielded similar (and great) results. Like you, I started at the speed end of the spectrum but for various reasons wound up w/ SS and so glad I did. I feel I get 90% of the speed and 500% of the enjoyment with low aspect SS wings. I just can do so much with the i76 wing. What hasn't been discussed is actually how fast that setup is, maybe its my weight and we are blessed with high winds here in SF Bay, but I am consistently as fast or faster than slapper free riders. Maybe its the lack of friction and slapping all that chop?? Never going back to traditional windsurfing when I can have 5x the water time, do floaty, fluid maneuvers and blast upwind and down in conditions I used to need a formula board for.

I don't care if you are a SS retailer or the Pope. Keep it coming'!!

Thanks for the feedback tswei99 .. at the end of the day think we are all just passionate for foiling regardless of brands that we prefer!

I have lately gone back to foiling the i76 wing it seems to compliment the wizard 130 perfectly and I can really push it hard, so I can fully understand where you are coming from, its a very fun wing.

Gwarn, you are dead on with the drag of the 125, its bit of a catch 22... I am hoping there will be a good selection of masts lengths
seeing as the kite version has 92 & 102

Yes, no doubt. After 30+ yrs of slapper I feel like I have a whole new career ahead of me and I am stoked.

It seems that SS has tweaked the Wizards to optimize use of low aspect wings, maybe the i76 in particular. Moving the mast track back on the W130 makes tons of sense to me as most folks on the W125 & I-wings eventually move their mast base all the way back. And making it thicker and narrower to reduce swing weight also would support this. Starboard went the same way w/ Foil-X. The rearward position w/ W125 gives me a much better feel of the wing and more centered balance so I can take advantage of its looseness and ability to just dive into a turn by just leaning inward - no need to move my feet!!

Select to expand quote

Gwarn said..
The thing with the tall masts if you don't ride them high they create a lot of drag. In swell and chop this is what is needed any other time it's just for a showing off . 125cm is a chiropractors wet dream That almost 5 feet after adding in the board. So go stand on a ladder at 5 feet then factor in your forward momentum then close your eyes and imagine being hooked in and losing control then catapulting over the front.

Keep the videos coming please

..just re-read this, Gwarm..." chiropractors wet dream"..

125 does seem awfully high....I have my eye on the Phantasm 103 mast. A friend who asked a team rider about this said its like dragging a plastic bag in the water until you get high enough. I would also guess that a shorter mast is stiffer.

In lower winds I would think the 125 cm. mast would give a lot of lift like a long formula fin used in windsurfing . Take a look at the Sling Shot (Big Winds) video again -- those two are moving pretty fast with really small sails. You don't have to ride high on the mast, however, if you do unexpectedly pop up you have lots of room to correct -- that's why Greg says it's so much more fun to ride with a long mast.

I started with a 60 cm. mast then a 70 and now a 90. I haven't noticed any increase in drag due to mast length. I guess I'll find out, assuming Sling Shot offers a 125 cm. mast to the consumer.

Select to expand quote

Gwarn said..
The thing with the tall masts if you don't ride them high they create a lot of drag. In swell and chop this is what is needed any other time it's just for a showing off . 125cm is a chiropractors wet dream That almost 5 feet after adding in the board. So go stand on a ladder at 5 feet then factor in your forward momentum then close your eyes and imagine being hooked in and losing control then catapulting over the front.

Keep the videos coming please

Another reason for not going for crazy long masts - seems it's possible to carve windswells harder keeping the wing close to the surface. I guess there's more energy higher up in the wave to push against?

Not sure how it works but it's superfun when the foil kind of bites and skids-out seemingly simultaneously in a fully cranked swell carve when flying high

Is there potential energy stored in the rig/body/board when flying. if you're on a 125cm mast and the wing is 10 cm below the surface, the wing could drop another 115cm. You get a longer glide with a 125cm vs 60cm mast, the wing will displace a larger volume of water as it sinks.

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..

Gwarn said..
The thing with the tall masts if you don't ride them high they create a lot of drag. In swell and chop this is what is needed any other time it's just for a showing off . 125cm is a chiropractors wet dream That almost 5 feet after adding in the board. So go stand on a ladder at 5 feet then factor in your forward momentum then close your eyes and imagine being hooked in and losing control then catapulting over the front.

Keep the videos coming please

Another reason for not going for crazy long masts - seems it's possible to carve windswells harder keeping the wing close to the surface. I guess there's more energy higher up in the wave to push against?

Not sure how it works but it's superfun when the foil kind of bites and skids-out seemingly simultaneously in a fully cranked swell carve when flying high

I am guessing the water is moving faster in breaking swell at the surface than 30 CM below it. That's why waves break, and whitecaps form right? The top is moving faster than the bottom??

I went from 70cm, to 85, back to 70, to 90, now down to 65 cm for all foiling conditions....NOT ocean swell or high winds.
Precise carving.

Wing and SUP foilers consider shorter masts to be more reactive in roll. I'm betting also more reactive to wave energy.

From what I've heard the slow release of the windfoil Phantasm is due to breakage so its been delayed until they can "fix" the problems. I suspect if they're jumping these foils with long masts then there will be issues. We'll have to wait and see. No such issues for the winging foils so hopefully they'll release those soon.

Select to expand quote

dejavu said..
From what I've heard the slow release of the windfoil Phantasm is due to breakage so its been delayed until they can "fix" the problems. I suspect if they're jumping these foils with long masts then there will be issues. We'll have to wait and see. No such issues for the winging foils so hopefully they'll release those soon.

My experience with foil R&D is that the longer carbon masts isnt the problem, bending fuselages or breaking front wings was. Very hard to get it right with respectable weight. We opted for carbon monobloc fuselages in the end, was the most durable option.

Select to expand quote

Grantmac said..
Wing and SUP foilers consider shorter masts to be more reactive in roll. I'm betting also more reactive to wave energy.

Shorter masts are more sensitive to wave energy if you keep the same flight height as with a long mast. With a shorter mast, the front wings are further up in the water, where the up/down/forward/backward movement caused by the waves is higher.

Alternatively, you could adjust the flight height to be higher above the water with a longer mast. Then, you'd gain more room before the board hits an oncoming swell. In reality, you may end up splitting the difference, ending up with a bit less sensitivity to wave energy, and a bit more up-and-down room, with a longer mast.

Speed relative to the wave speed also comes into play. Swell that's a bit of a pain at medium speed can be easier to foil in if your either going slower (e.g. winging) or faster. Slower gives the foil more time for "automatic" adjustments, and your body more time to react. Faster seems to reduce the relative impact of the waves on the foil. That's only based on a few knots speed difference with SS 76 and 84 wings in our typical chop/swell though. It would be interesting to hear from foilers who use both slow freeride wings and racier wings.

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

dejavu said..
From what I've heard the slow release of the windfoil Phantasm is due to breakage so its been delayed until they can "fix" the problems. I suspect if they're jumping these foils with long masts then there will be issues. We'll have to wait and see. No such issues for the winging foils so hopefully they'll release those soon.

My experience with foil R&D is that the longer carbon masts isnt the problem, bending fuselages or breaking front wings was. Very hard to get it right with respectable weight. We opted for carbon monobloc fuselages in the end, was the most durable option.

In this case, it may well be the masts. In their literature, they've touted a semi-hollow internal structure like an alu mast extrusion. I suspect, like a cf bike frame, they are using internal bladders during the build process. It has to be done right - if there are any voids, folds in the cloth, etc. you end up with a potential point of failure. Other makers tend to use either solid carbon/simple carbon lay up over expanding foam in high pressure molds which makes for a simpler structure less prone to either voids or their effects.

Their prototypes which have been out a while could either be from the factory or hand built (which could be immune from mass manufacturing issues).

I've suspected for a while that their delay may be the result of the mast design. At this point it's still just the suspicion of one guy on the internet with no supporting evidence. But it does fit what dejavu said.

This guy, former aerospace engineer, does carbon bike repair. He has some excellent videos of doing cut ups of carbon bike frames and examining the quality of the build. A pretty cool rabbit hole if you want to learn more about cf fabrication.

If he lived close to me and he'd be willing to do windfoil gear, he'd be my go to guy.

I've been using the Phantasm Kite 633 for a few weeks now for winging. Mostly with the Moses W1100 wing as described in the video below. Here's a few things I've found:

- The construction seems good quality - much better than the Hover Glide

- The foil kit comes with a nice bag and a set of wing covers. The wing covers are much improved because they have toughened patches to stop the wing tips wearing through

- The fuselage is still relatively heavy - can't we have titanium and/or carbon?? The foil weights about 4.3 kg with the 633 wing whereas my Lokefoil LK 1 Performance is only 3.8 kg with a larger wing

- In my opinion the mast isn't super stiff as claimed in the video. It might be slightly more flexible than the Lokefoil but it is a kite / wing mast

- The Moses W1100 wing actually fits slightly better than the Phantasm wing! I didn't use any packing like they did in the video.

- The Phantasm 633 wing is great. I used in winging in about 15 - 20 knots. I think it would be great for windfoiling.

-The foil mast was very noisy from about 12 knots. My first attempt at wet sanding a slightly sharper trailing edge made it worse! But applying a Donaldson trailing edge solved the problem (See second video below).

The Phantasm kite 633 is basically the Slingshot Apollo and the Door is using it for windfoiling. He really likes it -- he has an active thread about why he likes it so much.

The Moses 1100 is a really big foil and it is not recommended for the longer Moses masts (they're not stiff enough).

simonp123 -- are you using the 1100 with the 90 cm. mast or the 102 cm. mast? I'd be interested in knowing if the 102 cm. mast is stiff enough to handle the Moses 1100.

Select to expand quote

simonp123 said..
I've been using the Phantasm Kite 633 for a few weeks now for winging. Mostly with the Moses W1100 wing as described in the video below. Here's a few things I've found:

- The construction seems good quality - much better than the Hover Glide

- The foil kit comes with a nice bag and a set of wing covers. The wing covers are much improved because they have toughened patches to stop the wing tips wearing through

- The fuselage is still relatively heavy - can't we have titanium and/or carbon?? The foil weights about 4.3 kg with the 633 wing whereas my Lokefoil LK 1 Performance is only 3.8 kg with a larger wing

- In my opinion the mast isn't super stiff as claimed in the video. It might be slightly more flexible than the Lokefoil but it is a kite / wing mast

- The Moses W1100 wing actually fits slightly better than the Phantasm wing! I didn't use any packing like they did in the video.

- The Phantasm 633 wing is great. I used in winging in about 15 - 20 knots. I think it would be great for windfoiling.

-The foil mast was very noisy from about 12 knots. My first attempt at wet sanding a slightly sharper trailing edge made it worse! But applying a Donaldson trailing edge solved the problem (See second video below).

Thanks for that. I'm thinking of getting the 92 kitemast to go winging with Moses 1100 and windfoiling with the 790. Phantasm windfoiling masts are too long for my liking, so any input on whether the phantasm 92 kitemast is stiff and durable enough is welcome. The Moses 82 works fine for winging, but not for windfoiling with my kit.

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simonp123 -- are you using the 1100 with the 90 cm. mast or the 102 cm. mast? I'd be interested in knowing if the 102 cm. mast is stiff enough to handle the Moses 1100.

I'm using the Moses 1100 wing with the 92cm mast. It seems to be fine although it's taken me a while to get used to gybing the 1100 wing. The wingspan is so massive it seems to need a lot of input to make it turn. I've also had a few wobbles at low speed mid-gybe. Not sure if that is caused by flex in the mast.