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drc13 said..

timmcg89 said..
My mates selling his mountain bike and wants to get into foiling. He's got up behind a boat on my axis gear.. I said he should just invest in code from the start as that's what I would be riding if I wasn't so invested in axis, seems like the best reviews and saves the bother of re-selling and changing brands once he's progressed . would the 850s be viable to learn on? Tail wing? long fusalage? He's around 90kg

I'd also consider unifoil progression for his first kit, I've moved from Uni to Code but I feel the Uni was an easier kit to ride it's just not much good once you get into waves with a bit of energyIf he's a rank beginner and wants to go with code at 90kg I'd be going 980s at a minimum but the 1130s would be better again, long fuse and 158AR would probably go well with it but it's all going to depend on what level he is at right now and what kind of conditions he's going to be learning in.

Not at 90kg as he'll have to use the P170 and even on katana the screws come loose and you can feel flexing, plus if on the east coast of Australia, progressions aren't really suited for our conditions, I sold my uni setup pretty quickly after purchase, like many others.

Axis has a good following in Australia, he could pick up a cheap second hand setup, so resale won't be a problem and maybe an easier journey for a beginner.

Code foils are great, and once you own code, no need to look for other foils IMO, but I'm not sure I could've learnt on them.

Code 980 or 1130 with 175 or 188 tail. Super stable.

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noepoxy said..

drc13 said..

timmcg89 said..
My mates selling his mountain bike and wants to get into foiling. He's got up behind a boat on my axis gear.. I said he should just invest in code from the start as that's what I would be riding if I wasn't so invested in axis, seems like the best reviews and saves the bother of re-selling and changing brands once he's progressed . would the 850s be viable to learn on? Tail wing? long fusalage? He's around 90kg

I'd also consider unifoil progression for his first kit, I've moved from Uni to Code but I feel the Uni was an easier kit to ride it's just not much good once you get into waves with a bit of energyIf he's a rank beginner and wants to go with code at 90kg I'd be going 980s at a minimum but the 1130s would be better again, long fuse and 158AR would probably go well with it but it's all going to depend on what level he is at right now and what kind of conditions he's going to be learning in.

Not at 90kg as he'll have to use the P170 and even on katana the screws come loose and you can feel flexing, plus if on the east coast of Australia, progressions aren't really suited for our conditions, I sold my uni setup pretty quickly after purchase, like many others.

Axis has a good following in Australia, he could pick up a cheap second hand setup, so resale won't be a problem and maybe an easier journey for a beginner.

Code foils are great, and once you own code, no need to look for other foils IMO, but I'm not sure I could've learnt on them.

Good info. not sure I agree the codes are more difficult to learn on than others. I think that slight anhedral in the front and back makes them balanced and intuitive right out of the box especially if you are coming at it as a (fin) surfer.
My 12yo behind the boat on the 850. 3rd try:
www.instagram.com/reel/CypUaHRPJrv/?igshid=N2ViNmM2MDRjNw==

(I would suggest the 980 as a starting point for 90kg or maybe the 1130 but I have not ridden it just educated guess).

I own an artpro 951 and a 770r. @ 72kg on the ding. I find the 770r has a lower stall speed and a longer slower sink rate. The 951 feels faster but is harder to maintain pitch control, although it glides well it has a fast sink rate at just above stall speed. They both turn to hunt small lake waves equally well. My preference is the 770, it is more relaxing to ride at speed. .
951 crazy short advanced. 400p. (after much experimenting with fuse length and tails)
770r long fuse, ar150.

I own an artpro 951 and a 770r. @ 72kg on the ding. I find the 770r has a lower stall speed and a longer slower sink rate. The 951 feels faster but is harder to maintain pitch control, although it glides well it has a fast sink rate at just above stall speed. They both turn to hunt small lake waves equally well. My preference is the 770, it is relaxing to ride at speed and more fun at just above stall.
951 crazy short advanced. 400p. (after much experimenting with fuse length and tails)
770r long fuse, ar150.

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saltwaterwine said..
I own an artpro 951 and a 770r. @ 72kg on the ding. I find the 770r has a lower stall speed and a longer slower sink rate. The 951 feels faster but is harder to maintain pitch control, although it glides well it has a fast sink rate at just above stall speed. They both turn to hunt small lake waves equally well. My preference is the 770, it is relaxing to ride at speed and more fun at just above stall.
951 crazy short advanced. 400p. (after much experimenting with fuse length and tails)
770r long fuse, ar150.

Different things for different people.
The Axis ART pro 951 with skinny 359 x 40 chord has become my 90% choice in Lake conditions in wind from just over 10kn , me 74kg. no pitch issues.

Anybody have 300+ hours on a Code front foil wing yet? More importantly anybody over 90Kg?
This is what happens to my Lift wings after about 300 hours, tiny spider cracks start developing in that super thin web area where the TE attaches to the fuse (I also have a Go Foil wing doing the same) You'll see the salt crystals develop as it dries. Doesn't seem to go anywhere or have any impact to usability but still can't be good.

I would appreciate an honest assessment of Code longevity when you guys get some serious use on them.

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Thatspec said..
Anybody have 300+ hours on a Code front foil wing yet? More importantly anybody over 90Kg?
This is what happens to my Lift wings after about 300 hours, tiny spider cracks start developing in that super thin web area where the TE attaches to the fuse (I also have a Go Foil wing doing the same) You'll see the salt crystals develop as it dries. Doesn't seem to go anywhere or have any impact to usability but still can't be good.

I would appreciate an honest assessment of Code longevity when you guys get some serious use on them.

Only 150 to 200 hours on my 980 still looks new. The designers of the Code foils rode Lift and were aware of the issues and assured me they have addressed them with their construction. So far all good. Only problem I have had is the 85 mast connection was too tight. A bit of sanding and wear solved that.

I'd have apx same hours as Hilly spread out across the 720 , 850 , 980 & 1130 Code and no issues at all . My Cabrinha foils did the same as the Lift pics above plus I've fixed quite a few Lift rear wings doing the same thing for mates. This is my stats just for December 1378 waves on the Codes using a Prone foil drive . I don't come off foil unless I crash so this is a true text for the construction with plenty of bottom impacts . 31 sessions and that's only when I wore my watch at least another 10 session not recorded . I'm mates with Benny but still but my Codes so not a team rider ( there are none ) you just need to look at a Code , everything is thicker and stronger . The plate is longer , all connection points are built up and stronger . The fuse and wing connections are also the same. The boys main purpose was to build a stiff strong foil first which they have done and use quality carbon . It's not one of the lightest foils on the market buts it's definitely one of the strongest , if not the strongest .

Need a recommendation on my 2nd front wing.

I'm 75kg. I have 850S with 150AR with 85cm mast medium and long fuses.

Thinking about getting the R series for very light and for downwinding with the wing (go upwind with the wing and downwind back mostly in a small condition). I don't have a spot for DW with the paddle and my local conditions are mostly light.

I think about getting 860R but not sure about which tail to pair with. I want something to complement my AR150. What is your recommendation? Or I'd better get 770R? Is 770R enough to get me up in 8kt.

The DW Sup crew here run the 150 on both the 770 & 860 so really don't need a new rear wing . They also use the 770 as their first choice for DW . When I DW with them on the Ding I struggle to keep up on the 980s so the 770r is super quick , I'd be leaning towards that if I was you . IMHO

Appreciate the info guys. No way I can get a demo on Code until May most likely so keep us posted how things are ageing. It looks like a very nice system overall, and not stratospherically priced in the US like F-One. That's a pic of my 110X which just started showing cracks on both sides, had a 150X do the same. Lift has been great about a mast warranty issue I had but my dealer doesn't think this is a replacement issue yet. Obviously the resale value is diminished significantly though

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Piros said..
I'd have apx same hours as Hilly spread out across the 720 , 850 , 980 & 1130 Code and no issues at all . My Cabrinha foils did the same as the Lift pics above plus I've fixed quite a few Lift rear wings doing the same thing for mates. This is my stats just for December 1378 waves on the Codes using a Prone foil drive . I don't come off foil unless I crash so this is a true text for the construction with plenty of bottom impacts . 31 sessions and that's only when I wore my watch at least another 10 session not recorded . I'm mates with Benny but still but my Codes so not a team rider ( there are none ) you just need to look at a Code , everything is thicker and stronger . The plate is longer , all connection points are built up and stronger . The fuse and wing connections are also the same. The boys main purpose was to build a stiff strong foil first which they have done and use quality carbon . It's not one of the lightest foils on the market buts it's definitely one of the strongest , if not the strongest .

I demoed the code and I'm sure it's well built and will last , but I've also been trying the uni progression and I would say it's more solid ,especially mast to wing connections which are M8 instead of M6. The plugs on the uni mast are easily replaced if you did ever snap an M8 screw but the code M6 ones are buried in the mast and if you did strip one I don't know how you would fix it . Code is also using brass inserts which is softer and stainless screws to go into them but that should be fine.Code do warn about over tightening as they won't be responsible for stripped inserts, mainly for people who use impact tools I think. I don't see any probs with Code system but it's not as heavy duty as the uni.

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kobo said..

Piros said..
I'd have apx same hours as Hilly spread out across the 720 , 850 , 980 & 1130 Code and no issues at all . My Cabrinha foils did the same as the Lift pics above plus I've fixed quite a few Lift rear wings doing the same thing for mates. This is my stats just for December 1378 waves on the Codes using a Prone foil drive . I don't come off foil unless I crash so this is a true text for the construction with plenty of bottom impacts . 31 sessions and that's only when I wore my watch at least another 10 session not recorded . I'm mates with Benny but still but my Codes so not a team rider ( there are none ) you just need to look at a Code , everything is thicker and stronger . The plate is longer , all connection points are built up and stronger . The fuse and wing connections are also the same. The boys main purpose was to build a stiff strong foil first which they have done and use quality carbon . It's not one of the lightest foils on the market buts it's definitely one of the strongest , if not the strongest .

I demoed the code and I'm sure it's well built and will last , but I've also been trying the uni progression and I would say it's more solid ,especially mast to wing connections which are M8 instead of M6. The plugs on the uni mast are easily replaced if you did ever snap an M8 screw but the code M6 ones are buried in the mast and if you did strip one I don't know how you would fix it . Code is also using brass inserts which is softer and stainless screws to go into them but that should be fine.Code do warn about over tightening as they won't be responsible for stripped inserts, mainly for people who use impact tools I think. I don't see any probs with Code system but it's not as heavy duty as the uni.

You've missed the point of the design of the code fuselage to mast connection. It is designed in a way where is does not rely on screws for strength, hence why only m6.

I had uni progression/katana for roughly 4 months, 98kgs, the connection wasn't strong and mast to fuse fitting wasn't as tight as code and uni relied on bolts for strength, I could feel the uni gear moving/loosening under me, and mine came loose all the time, plus it is not the right foil for east coast of australia, well progression wings that is, too much drag and slow, mast has a lot of drag too, hence why I sold it quickly.

Actually uni was the quickest turn over in foil brand I have had.

Code is the next level compared to uni progressions and katana masts, can't compare to vypers as different design completely and the vypers were/are good foils.

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noepoxy said..

kobo said..

Piros said..
I'd have apx same hours as Hilly spread out across the 720 , 850 , 980 & 1130 Code and no issues at all . My Cabrinha foils did the same as the Lift pics above plus I've fixed quite a few Lift rear wings doing the same thing for mates. This is my stats just for December 1378 waves on the Codes using a Prone foil drive . I don't come off foil unless I crash so this is a true text for the construction with plenty of bottom impacts . 31 sessions and that's only when I wore my watch at least another 10 session not recorded . I'm mates with Benny but still but my Codes so not a team rider ( there are none ) you just need to look at a Code , everything is thicker and stronger . The plate is longer , all connection points are built up and stronger . The fuse and wing connections are also the same. The boys main purpose was to build a stiff strong foil first which they have done and use quality carbon . It's not one of the lightest foils on the market buts it's definitely one of the strongest , if not the strongest .

I demoed the code and I'm sure it's well built and will last , but I've also been trying the uni progression and I would say it's more solid ,especially mast to wing connections which are M8 instead of M6. The plugs on the uni mast are easily replaced if you did ever snap an M8 screw but the code M6 ones are buried in the mast and if you did strip one I don't know how you would fix it . Code is also using brass inserts which is softer and stainless screws to go into them but that should be fine.Code do warn about over tightening as they won't be responsible for stripped inserts, mainly for people who use impact tools I think. I don't see any probs with Code system but it's not as heavy duty as the uni.

You've missed the point of the design of the code fuselage to mast connection. It is designed in a way where is does not rely on screws for strength, hence why only m6.

I had uni progression/katana for roughly 4 months, 98kgs, the connection wasn't strong and mast to fuse fitting wasn't as tight as code and uni relied on bolts for strength, I could feel the uni gear moving/loosening under me, and mine came loose all the time, plus it is not the right foil for east coast of australia, well progression wings that is, too much drag and slow, mast has a lot of drag too, hence why I sold it quickly.

Actually uni was the quickest turn over in foil brand I have had.

Code is the next level compared to uni progressions and katana masts, can't compare to vypers as different design completely and the vypers were/are good foils.

I must of missed how the code is designed not to rely on the M6 screws, can you explain how it's different from the others that use the mast into front wing design for me please ? I thought it was exactly design as in lift,uni, latest cloud9 etc. Thats definitely the most simple and strongest connection anyhow.

Always interesting to get other experiences I'm 80 kg and I rode the code 75/850s/150 no shim with medium fuse. I'm comparing it to the uni progression 140/83katana/shiv no shim medium fuse.

I would be happy with either setup for prone I recon , not that much in it really, The uni mast is pretty heavy but don't notice that in the water, Speeds felt pretty much the same to me , the uni is virtually fool proof to pump and never seems to stall whereas the code did stall on me pumping but it was in a rip. The progression has a smoother rail to rail turning feel but the code turned well too it just had a small locked in sensation before roll over but not a big deal. Comparisons are really hard when a different fuse,tail or shim can make a lot of difference but both setups are pretty good I recon.I'm about to try the new Armstrong HA880 so that should be interesting as they really haven't had a surf specific wing up till now. Got a feeling that they are all starting to converge now and the differences between brands is getting smaller.

For the type of mast fuse connection used by Code, Uni, Lift, and Omen etc. two M6 bolts are more than strong enough. Not my opinion but that of one of the designer / engineers from Omen. The bolts are only in tension and not subject to any bending forces like F-one, AFS, Mikes Lab, etc.

That said I'd still prefer M8's with replaceable stainless inserts down there. I'm sure the Code inserts could be drilled out and replaced with relative ease.

I have no affiliation with code and I vote with my wallet and pay full retail (don't want to brand bash just interested in good gear that works for me at my weight and conditions), one cannot compare the mast fuse connection of code vs uni and have no idea about other brands. Look at racing yacht keel design, tons of weight holding on by a couple of tiny bolts, same principle applies with code, hence the m6. I suggest watch the code mast video to gain an appreciation of their USP compared to other brands. Uni relies on M8's to take the load, which is the opposite of code.

@kobo 80kg rider vs 98kg rider = big difference, FWIW I rode mainly the p170 and p140/med fuse and 14 shiv, mainly winging, and sup foil.

I'm sure everyone has a diff opinion on brands but just find what works for your style, disciplines and weight and your local conditions!

I'm getting closer to finding mine, but haven't seen any guys > 95kg down winding with code yet...so one brand might not be enough for me...

I have North and Code foils

One thing I really like North as a system is they only use M8 in every connection points so you need one T40 screw driver. And they use titanium screws with label on all parts so you are not confuse when change front wing (for example thicker SF front wing need longer screw than the thinner HA wing.)

The mast/fuse connection on North foil is geometry lock like code but they manage to use M8 on that connection point and it feel very solid and assuring.

But I understand why code use M6. They want the front wing fuselage to be as narrow as possible if they use M8 it will be a few milimeters wider. Those screws is not subject to shear force and bending moment so it should be fine.

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noepoxy said..
one cannot compare the mast fuse connection of code vs uni and have no idea about other brands....

They are virtually identical. There's a reason so many brands have gone this route, the bolts are just there for safety, they bear almost NO load. It's a simple Morse taper that's been in use for 150 years. 80Kg vs 98Kg is indeed a very big difference but a Morse taper is unfazed by that tiny dif. 98Kg on an F-one system, it's going to fail a lot sooner. Forget to check the bolts and you've lost the plane. Never going to happen with Code, Uni, Lift, et. al. I'd sell those Uni titanium M8's and replace them immediately with stainless though.

Meanwhile... how about those Code foils eh?

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I must of missed how the code is designed not to rely on the M6 screws, can you explain how it's different from the others that use the mast into front wing design for me please ? I thought it was exactly design as in lift,uni, latest cloud9 etc. Thats definitely the most simple and strongest connection anyhow.

Always interesting to get other experiences I'm 80 kg and I rode the code 75/850s/150 no shim with medium fuse. I'm comparing it to the uni progression 140/83katana/shiv no shim medium fuse.

I would be happy with either setup for prone I recon , not that much in it really, The uni mast is pretty heavy but don't notice that in the water, Speeds felt pretty much the same to me , the uni is virtually fool proof to pump and never seems to stall whereas the code did stall on me pumping but it was in a rip. The progression has a smoother rail to rail turning feel but the code turned well too it just had a small locked in sensation before roll over but not a big deal. Comparisons are really hard when a different fuse,tail or shim can make a lot of difference but both setups are pretty good I recon.I'm about to try the new Armstrong HA880 so that should be interesting as they really haven't had a surf specific wing up till now. Got a feeling that they are all starting to converge now and the differences between brands is getting smaller.

To me Code vs Uni Prog, I would say Code turns better but both are really good for surf foiling. But to me the main difference is the speed (code are way faster) and how smooth are the Codefoils, hard to go back to something else.

I guess because they don't offer the exact same size I would say, some people will feel better for exemple on the Prog140 because they don't feel comfortable on the 850S and don't want to be on the 980S and vice versa and for others sizes.

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kobo said..

Piros said..
I'd have apx same hours as Hilly spread out across the 720 , 850 , 980 & 1130 Code and no issues at all . My Cabrinha foils did the same as the Lift pics above plus I've fixed quite a few Lift rear wings doing the same thing for mates. This is my stats just for December 1378 waves on the Codes using a Prone foil drive . I don't come off foil unless I crash so this is a true text for the construction with plenty of bottom impacts . 31 sessions and that's only when I wore my watch at least another 10 session not recorded . I'm mates with Benny but still but my Codes so not a team rider ( there are none ) you just need to look at a Code , everything is thicker and stronger . The plate is longer , all connection points are built up and stronger . The fuse and wing connections are also the same. The boys main purpose was to build a stiff strong foil first which they have done and use quality carbon . It's not one of the lightest foils on the market buts it's definitely one of the strongest , if not the strongest .

I demoed the code and I'm sure it's well built and will last , but I've also been trying the uni progression and I would say it's more solid ,especially mast to wing connections which are M8 instead of M6. The plugs on the uni mast are easily replaced if you did ever snap an M8 screw but the code M6 ones are buried in the mast and if you did strip one I don't know how you would fix it . Code is also using brass inserts which is softer and stainless screws to go into them but that should be fine.Code do warn about over tightening as they won't be responsible for stripped inserts, mainly for people who use impact tools I think. I don't see any probs with Code system but it's not as heavy duty as the uni.

Im not sure why you think the threaded inserts are brass. Brass is a strange choice in a salt environment. Bronze is far superior to brass and stainless. Have Code clarified their spec.

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saltwaterwine said..

kobo said..

Piros said..
I'd have apx same hours as Hilly spread out across the 720 , 850 , 980 & 1130 Code and no issues at all . My Cabrinha foils did the same as the Lift pics above plus I've fixed quite a few Lift rear wings doing the same thing for mates. This is my stats just for December 1378 waves on the Codes using a Prone foil drive . I don't come off foil unless I crash so this is a true text for the construction with plenty of bottom impacts . 31 sessions and that's only when I wore my watch at least another 10 session not recorded . I'm mates with Benny but still but my Codes so not a team rider ( there are none ) you just need to look at a Code , everything is thicker and stronger . The plate is longer , all connection points are built up and stronger . The fuse and wing connections are also the same. The boys main purpose was to build a stiff strong foil first which they have done and use quality carbon . It's not one of the lightest foils on the market buts it's definitely one of the strongest , if not the strongest .

I demoed the code and I'm sure it's well built and will last , but I've also been trying the uni progression and I would say it's more solid ,especially mast to wing connections which are M8 instead of M6. The plugs on the uni mast are easily replaced if you did ever snap an M8 screw but the code M6 ones are buried in the mast and if you did strip one I don't know how you would fix it . Code is also using brass inserts which is softer and stainless screws to go into them but that should be fine.Code do warn about over tightening as they won't be responsible for stripped inserts, mainly for people who use impact tools I think. I don't see any probs with Code system but it's not as heavy duty as the uni.

Im not sure why you think the threaded inserts are brass. Brass is a strange choice in a salt environment. Bronze is far superior to brass and stainless. Have Code clarified their spec.

Ben Tardrew from code on Instagram said they were brass ? but maybe they are bronze, easy to confuse

The video below at 1:15 goes into the mast to foil connection in some detail.

Code make a fair bit of fuss about designing their products for durability and longevity. I have a kite foil mast with a similar connection (obviously not Code). It's got 900 hours of jumping and riding into the bottom on it with no sign of wear or damage. My mast has stainless barrel nuts which are very robust and easy to replace, not that they've needed it. My foil came with spares.

My Gofoils have stainless helical inserts. Not particularly robust but easy to replace. The mast has 400 hours with no more than a few chips and scratches.



?si=3yCkLL_WH7XU5oQI

Just frothing on the 850s
?feature=shared

Can someone give a direct comparison between the 770r and 860r on the ding please.
your wieght, set up and conditions included.

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saltwaterwine said..
Can someone give a direct comparison between the 770r and 860r on the ding please.
your wieght, set up and conditions included.

According to the designer.
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I have 850S and just order 860R for light condition. I'm 75kg.

Not try any R series but for 850S I need 12kt. I try it in 10kt and it worked but too much work for that condition.

According to Ben, 770R has a bit more lift than 850S so I go big to be sure that it can work as my lightwind setup.

hi, somebody tried the flatwater pop up with the R860?

Lite up on the 980s & 85 mast.

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max72 said..
hi, somebody tried the flatwater pop up with the R860?

Yes I can flatwater paddle it quite easy for me, question?
I'm 78kg and downwind a lot.

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Cygnify said..

max72 said..
hi, somebody tried the flatwater pop up with the R860?

Yes I can flatwater paddle it quite easy for me, question?
I'm 78kg and downwind a lot.

..... perfect,which tail and fuse are you using?