I am now up to almost 8 hours (6 sessions) on the foil and finally getting the hang of it (foiling for 4-5 seconds consistently, but not falling too much anymore). I am on an Shinn El Stubbo board with Zeeko Blue and White foil, been out mainly in 12-15 knots (on 9m kite which felt underpowered at times) and not much chop/swell.

One thing that is really bugging me is that it feels like I need a LOT of weight on my back foot to get up on the foil - is this because I am underpowered/going too slow? Will this change as I get more speed up (once I am foiling for more than 4-5 secs)?

It may be that you are trying to lift off too early.
The foil travels along slower than lift off speed once you release the board drag and the trap is that you touch down then expect to pop up again. But you need to build a bit more speed.
Also you may have your back foot to far forward which is my problem at moment as I have the back strap on but I have my foot in front of it which as I'm progressing I'm finding I am having mores load on back leg but the step back to strap tests my patience when starting and I try to get up to soon and stall. A bit more time will cure this I'm sure.

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HeavyInt said...
I am now up to almost 8 hours (6 sessions) on the foil and finally getting the hang of it (foiling for 4-5 seconds consistently, but not falling too much anymore). I am on an Shinn El Stubbo board with Zeeko Blue and White foil, been out mainly in 12-15 knots (on 9m kite which felt underpowered at times) and not much chop/swell.

One thing that is really bugging me is that it feels like I need a LOT of weight on my back foot to get up on the foil - is this because I am underpowered/going too slow? Will this change as I get more speed up (once I am foiling for more than 4-5 secs)?

Where is the foil mounted on the board? I wonder if it or you are too far forward? Are you strapped or strapless?

Thanks Ral Inn - the GPS shows me going around 20kph, which I guess is fairly slow. I find it a lot easier to get up on the foil when the wind is blowing around 15 knots (vs when it drops to around 12 knots), my back foot is in the back strap. Maybe I just need more power/speed. Plummet - I now have front and back straps on, which helps heaps. There are three settings for the foil on the board, front/middle/back - I'm on the middle setting.

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Plummet said..

HeavyInt said...
I am now up to almost 8 hours (6 sessions) on the foil and finally getting the hang of it (foiling for 4-5 seconds consistently, but not falling too much anymore). I am on an Shinn El Stubbo board with Zeeko Blue and White foil, been out mainly in 12-15 knots (on 9m kite which felt underpowered at times) and not much chop/swell.

One thing that is really bugging me is that it feels like I need a LOT of weight on my back foot to get up on the foil - is this because I am underpowered/going too slow? Will this change as I get more speed up (once I am foiling for more than 4-5 secs)?

Where is the foil mounted on the board? I wonder if it or you are too far forward? Are you strapped or strapless?

I have the foil in the rear most position and my rear foot lives just in front of the rear foot pad (just touching it). Plenty of front foot pressure required.

Thanks bigtone - I will try that next time

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HeavyInt said...
I am now up to almost 8 hours (6 sessions) on the foil and finally getting the hang of it (foiling for 4-5 seconds consistently, but not falling too much anymore). I am on an Shinn El Stubbo board with Zeeko Blue and White foil, been out mainly in 12-15 knots (on 9m kite which felt underpowered at times) and not much chop/swell.

One thing that is really bugging me is that it feels like I need a LOT of weight on my back foot to get up on the foil - is this because I am underpowered/going too slow? Will this change as I get more speed up (once I am foiling for more than 4-5 secs)?

Zeeko provide a setup guide regarding the placement of the foil relative to the front footstraps. This distance is 370mm and quite critical to the balance and your resulting stance.

Note your back foot placement isn't as critical for cruising about (despite what you might think) and can be positioned really anywhere near the mast - usually just behind but I'd recommend taking the rear strap off temporarily and experimenting without it - you'll see you can move that foot around a lot more than you think without affecting the foil.

For example my stance riding toeside upwind is much different to riding downwind or across the wind on the same tack. Just like on strapless surfboard, you move to suit the direction of travel.

See below with reference to your own setup :

To me it sounds like the rear strap is too far forward. I say ditch the rear strap for a session or 2 and see where your rear foot sits naturally.

Ps I think 20kph is fast. I'm foiling instantly from the wAter start. Maybe walking speed.

Just about to join you advanced beginners .
I have a Slingshot Alien with full beginners kit arriving tomorrow
I have taken a lot on from the above posts so lets see how it works out at my first day

20k's is maybe 10kts which to me is plenty fast .
The blue and white should be going close to 7/8 kts.
Maybe check that front strap position as detailed above.

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HeavyInt said..
I am now up to almost 8 hours (6 sessions) on the foil and finally getting the hang of it (foiling for 4-5 seconds consistently, but not falling too much anymore). I am on an Shinn El Stubbo board with Zeeko Blue and White foil, been out mainly in 12-15 knots (on 9m kite which felt underpowered at times) and not much chop/swell.

One thing that is really bugging me is that it feels like I need a LOT of weight on my back foot to get up on the foil - is this because I am underpowered/going too slow? Will this change as I get more speed up (once I am foiling for more than 4-5 secs)?

I know what you mean. I'm on a different foil and with the smaller kite I see the same thing. I think for me its a case of not heading upwind to tension the lines enough. With a bigger kite I can let the power in the kite give me the lift but with the smaller kite I think I need to head upwind a bit more to generate the extra tension in the lines to start taking a little of my weight to start the flight.

Can't remember where I read about it, but I recall someone talking about using heading more/less upwind as a secondary way of balancing out the height and not just using foot pressure.

When I first started foiling I needed standard wind and a larger kite to get up and begin to foil. As your technique improves kite size goes down. Biggest kite I use to foil now is a 10 REO. That is good down to the 8 to 10 knot range which is the best in our bay for speed as the chop has not built up. Riding strapless on a small board in those light winds the challenge is to keep enough pull on the kite to keep my feet stuck to the board to begin the power cycle to get up. I have found that by looping the kite at those low wind speeds I can get up and out of the water foiling in one motion, no planing just pop up and go and angle up wind to keep tension on the lines until enough speed is built. The hardest thing to realize when one is beginning is how forward you really need to be, and your back foot should be just about over the mast or slightly ahead, and not behind it. I guess some race foils might be different, but for the average freestyle foil the rear footplacement is more forward than that which feels natural.

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dafish said..
When I first started foiling I needed standard wind and a larger kite to get up and begin to foil. As your technique improves kite size goes down. Biggest kite I use to foil now is a 10 REO. That is good down to the 8 to 10 knot range which is the best in our bay for speed as the chop has not built up. Riding strapless on a small board in those light winds the challenge is to keep enough pull on the kite to keep my feet stuck to the board to begin the power cycle to get up. I have found that by looping the kite at those low wind speeds I can get up and out of the water foiling in one motion, no planing just pop up and go and angle up wind to keep tension on the lines until enough speed is built. The hardest thing to realize when one is beginning is how forward you really need to be, and your back foot should be just about over the mast or slightly ahead, and not behind it. I guess some race foils might be different, but for the average freestyle foil the rear footplacement is more forward than that which feels natural.

Dagish you using multiple loops to get going in these conditions ? I struggled yesterday on a 5.5 cloud, 20m lines in avg 12-14 knots. It surprised me actually - I could get out of the water ok but just couldnt build any speed The kite and my foil is new to me me and I found myself choking the kite and falling in backwards constantly. I'm sure it's just technique.

But what do you do when 1 or more loops won't pull you up out of the water ?? What then ? That also happens to me on small kites. Again, I have to come in and change.

Sounds like you have some pretty solid skills Dafish, using a 10m kite in 8-10 knots.

Unfortunately, that's not really the norm for most foilers I see here in Perth.

Last week I started playing with foiling with a 5m single strut kite. at first I tried it in 15-18 knots which was easy even with 15m lines, but then realized I was still able to use it in 10-12 knots! I was using 35m thin race lines in those winds which helped a lot. It surprised me as I didn't expect to get going in those winds with such a small kite. Funny thing is I was more confident to go at faster speeds when the winds were above 12 knots (compared to using my 12). To be honest I didn't feel like much difference power-wise in comparison to my 12m in those winds when going fast.

Turning and downwind riding are so much more fun on small kite. Small kites seem to drift better and in my case with a single strut (vs 5 struts) was actually stalling less than my 12m!

Using a smaller kite helped improve my water start skills and made me realize how much I was used to getting up with lots of power.

Foiling definitely changed my perception about the usefulness of very large kites...

Christian

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jamesperth said..

dafish said..
When I first started foiling I needed standard wind and a larger kite to get up and begin to foil. As your technique improves kite size goes down. Biggest kite I use to foil now is a 10 REO. That is good down to the 8 to 10 knot range which is the best in our bay for speed as the chop has not built up. Riding strapless on a small board in those light winds the challenge is to keep enough pull on the kite to keep my feet stucI'm k to the board to begin the power cycle to get up. I have found that by looping the kite at those low wind speeds I can get up and out of the water foiling in one motion, no planing just pop up and go and angle up wind to keep tension on the lines until enough speed is built. The hardest thing to realize when one is beginning is how forward you really need to be, and your back foot should be just about over the mast or slightly ahead, and not behind it. I guess some race foils might be different, but for the average freestyle foil the rear footplacement is more forward than that which feels natural.

Dagish you using multiple loops to get going in these conditions ? I struggled yesterday on a 5.5 cloud, 20m lines in avg 12-14 knots. It surprised me actually - I could get out of the water ok but just couldnt build any speed The kite and my foil is new to me me and I found myself choking the kite and falling in backwards constantly. I'm sure it's just technique.

But what do you do when 1 or more loops won't pull you up out of the water ?? What then ? That also happens to me on small kites. Again, I have to come in and change.

I'm getting 9-10 knots low end on the 8m catalyst.

Im only 3 months in foiling but have 12 years experience kiting light winds landkiting. So my light wind technique is solid! and interestingly foil flying and kitebuggy flying techniques are almost identical!


Try a big ass loop. not a tight pussy loop. Try warping the kite low and to the wrong side of the window first to lift you up then dive/downloop back through the powerzone. figure 8 it, loop im right in the middle of the powerzone. Keep the power on via loops and smashing deep into the powerzone. If that doesn't work then your screwed.

If your back stalling bar out obviously. but also trim at the bar too.

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jamesperth said..

Dagish you using multiple loops to get going in these conditions ? I struggled yesterday on a 5.5 cloud, 20m lines in avg 12-14 knots. It surprised me actually - I could get out of the water ok but just couldnt build any speed The kite and my foil is new to me me and I found myself choking the kite and falling in backwards constantly. I'm sure it's just technique.

But what do you do when 1 or more loops won't pull you up out of the water ?? What then ? That also happens to me on small kites. Again, I have to come in and change.

Just my 2 cents worth below . . . maybe helpful, maybe not

I have been foiling with the 3.5 cloud for a short while . . . it is sweet

You probably are aware of the cloud's sensitivity to line lengths. The front and rears have to be the same length when the bar is pulled in against the trim loop or whatever is there at the end of the trim line. They fly on low V, front line safety setups.

I find that sometimes diving once and then back up for a figure 8 pattern usually gets me up on the second dive.

If looping, definitely not the tight turn type.

Once up on the board, a wide loop should easily pull you up on the foil if you do not choke the kite.

Thanks guys. youve reminded me to check the line lengths - I'm using the CCS bar and Greg had told me this was important to check after a the first few sessions (and I haven't done it). I didn't use the kites over winter and have just bought the 3.5 and 5.5 out last week for the first time. Quite a big change for me coming of my race foil kites to these low AR lei's.

Figure 8 also makes more sense - I've been pussy looping as plummet described. Max_ob - have you experimented with longer lines on these clouds ?

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jamesperth said..
Thanks guys. youve reminded me to check the line lengths - I'm using the CCS bar and Greg had told me this was important to check after a the first few sessions (and I haven't done it). I didn't use the kites over winter and have just bought the 3.5 and 5.5 out last week for the first time. Quite a big change for me coming of my race foil kites to these low AR lei's.

Figure 8 also makes more sense - I've been pussy looping as plummet described. Max_ob - have you experimented with longer lines on these clouds ?

hey James . . . I only have the 3.5m . . . a bit off topic so have emailed you my thoughts.

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jamesperth said..

dafish said..
When I first started foiling I needed standard wind and a larger kite to get up and begin to foil. As your technique improves kite size goes down. Biggest kite I use to foil now is a 10 REO. That is good down to the 8 to 10 knot range which is the best in our bay for speed as the chop has not built up. Riding strapless on a small board in those light winds the challenge is to keep enough pull on the kite to keep my feet stuck to the board to begin the power cycle to get up. I have found that by looping the kite at those low wind speeds I can get up and out of the water foiling in one motion, no planing just pop up and go and angle up wind to keep tension on the lines until enough speed is built. The hardest thing to realize when one is beginning is how forward you really need to be, and your back foot should be just about over the mast or slightly ahead, and not behind it. I guess some race foils might be different, but for the average freestyle foil the rear footplacement is more forward than that which feels natural.

Dagish you using multiple loops to get going in these conditions ? I struggled yesterday on a 5.5 cloud, 20m lines in avg 12-14 knots. It surprised me actually - I could get out of the water ok but just couldnt build any speed The kite and my foil is new to me me and I found myself choking the kite and falling in backwards constantly. I'm sure it's just technique.

But what do you do when 1 or more loops won't pull you up out of the water ?? What then ? That also happens to me on small kites. Again, I have to come in and change.

I am only having to loop once. I should have clarified that I am using 25 meter lines. I also find that I can reach my fastest downwind reaches when it's 10 knots because of the smoothness of the water. I have a 6 meter Cat that I use in my school that I will try when it gets into the 15 to 20 knot range, but really I would LOVE to try a 3.5 Cloud. I have a 14 Cloud that sadly is now redundant for me as I can't see myself ever needing a kite that big again.
I have decided too that when things slow down for me I am going to build another Paipo, same size, but this time with some nose rocker. It will be more forgiving when I mess up a gybe or the foil ventilates..

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dafish said..

I am only having to loop once. I should have clarified that I am using 25 meter lines. I also find that I can reach my fastest downwind reaches when it's 10 knots because of the smoothness of the water. I have a 6 meter Cat that I use in my school that I will try when it gets into the 15 to 20 knot range, but really I would LOVE to try a 3.5 Cloud. I have a 14 Cloud that sadly is now redundant for me as I can't see myself ever needing a kite that big again.
I have decided too that when things slow down for me I am going to build another Paipo, same size, but this time with some nose rocker. It will be more forgiving when I mess up a gybe or the foil ventilates..

The 3.5 cloud is awesome but you really have to love kites that feel alive. Definitely not for everyone but suits me.

Line lengths:
for the cloud, ccs bar copy with 21m +trim line
6m NEO 24m lines std bar
8m OR Razor 27m lines

I have built a Paipo outline board . . . it has 9 to 9.5 cm scoop starting from around the rear insert of the front strap if you had one. The scoop certainly makes life easier with touchdowns. Find the shape works well.

Am going to build a short version but not sure of how much scoop to use as yet.

I am using the Zeeko carver and loving it . . . especially for carving on swells Probably similar to your Stringfellow wing.

I'm using the figure 8 system using the backwards part to pop up then the forward part to get moving.
I only now use my 8m Notus Air on 27m lines.

www.instagram.com/p/BO52KaXAz8Q/

A clip of Kai Lenny foiling a boat's wake

Another idea for learning to foil or foiling when there is no wind. I guess you could call it wakefoiling

Usually, when I see people surfing behind boats the wake is massive, seems like you don't need such a big wake to make it happen with a foil...mind you Kai is pretty skilled.

Christian

Kai is the real deal. Triple threat and then some.

My two cents on learning to foil, worrying about precise mast and strap positioning and kite size is pointless when you still haven't got to square one. You need to be 40-50 hours in before any of that matters. This is my opinion, and also the advice of the man who made my foil. Start off out of the straps. Learn stuff. Adapt.

To start with, position your straps so they're out of the way, particularly the back strap. All you're using it for is as a handle to manage the board and steady it for water starting. Don't water start in it. Don't try to ride in it. The front strap seems to be easier to use and position and is less critical than the rear.

When you're learning you want your back foot well forward, in front of the mast. As you practice you will move it back and forth as you learn what feels right for you. The default position for a beginner will be somewhere in front of the mast. Once you're foiling reliably you will want it on top of the mast and move back or forward within the bounds of the front and rear bolts.

Don't think about how to get up on the foil. It will do that by itself. In fact, one of the skills you will have to work on is keeping it down when it wants to come up. Once you're reliably foiling you can experiment with various movements to get up on the foil.

Speed to come up onto the foil is irrelevant. It's not speed, it's water flow. You're aiming to get the foil moving smoothly through the water. Once you get that you can water start straight onto the foil and you can be foiling almost stationary (particularly in an underpowered gybe). Again, it's a feel thing, not a speed thing.

When you're a total newbie and riding around flat on the water then a normal size kite will do. Once you're foiling reliably then you can move down at least one and maybe two sizes. I weigh 76kg and started with a 10m, then moved to a 7m as my most used kite. I will ride that from below 15 knots to over 25. I am thinking about getting a 5m or smaller.

Once you've got through that newbie stage you will be up and foiling and riding around having fun. That's about 20-50 hours. Once you're through that then the learning can really start. Adding in both straps and learning how to really trim a foil is what makes for the biggest gains. Trimming a foil is all about centre of gravity. Your feet have something to do with that but the biggest effect comes from positioning your upper body and head and shoulders. Once you can feel that you're off and blasting.

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dafish said..
Kai is the real deal. Triple threat and then some.

Kai could ride a block of concrete covered in cow s**t and make it look good.

Gorgo that's a good post. I am about 18 months on the foil now, just switched from regular race foils to the Zeeko canard setup and adapting to that.

I would say that it's helpful if your mast is basically in the right spot (not precisely) if you are riding with straps because they will stop you moving naturally to balance out the foil.

And higher performance foils like levitaz, sword, kfa and so on will have a higher starting speed than learner foil ( my LF Foil Fish would fly at walking pace). So sometimes speed does count.

Now the suffering begins hopefully reduced with the help in above posts

PS
Surf FX again came up with the goods and excellent service. Jon and team are the most consistently honest and reliable guys I have delt with in the kiting and SUP retail industry.
I have absolutely no affiation with them only their excellent service.

Looks good!

The old Alien Air has 45L of volume so you'll have an easy time of getting up onto the board then riding it before foiling.

Ditch the rear strap to start with and open up that front one as far as you can...they're really small/short IMO and a bit snug, especially with booties.

Put the foil together at home first. The bolts on mine were a bit of a snug fit, and needed a bit of easing with sandpaper. I'd recommend taking it apart after sessions in salt water, at least removing the wing and fuse...we've got a couple of here jammed up good. The plate and mast are pretty cheap to replace so I wouldn't worry about them so much...

For learning I recommend 2 loose straps. It just makes it so much easier to start and get set. The straps can be used like handles to pull the board bcak around. The foil gets caught in the current and pulls you around backwards and you have to ditch the board and body drag back . Really hard just with one strap plus when you start and blow it you get the painful ankle stretch just with one strap.

If you start and foil start up and fall continually try taking your back out and put it in front of the back strap this will let you start flat and not foil. It's a tough learning curve but I love just it. Hang in there it will come and your brain will switch off that back foot pressure to let you balance on the foil.

This is a video I did for Slingshot of my kite foil learning experience and the second one is us testing Lift foils on our Sups to see if they carry the weight of the board and rider , we plan to paddle in on these.

1st time gliding over ocean swell on hover glide this arv, so quiet and smooth mission underway