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bigtone667 said..
My two cents worth....

If you treat foiling in the same way you did initially learning, then there will be no disappointment in your rate of progression. I see really great kiters (superb kiters!) struggling because they expect to be up and running first go. And 1 percent are lucky enough to do this. For the rest of us, it's months of work or longer if you do not have a suitable local spot.

The other point I would make is, most good kiters take a foil along to ride until the conditions are good enough for their preferred style. This means they do not give themselves enough time to bed in the muscle memory.

I was suffered from both points above, but once I found a good local location and committed to a good hour or three each time I went kiting, i progressed enormously (and now, I don't even bother riding anything but the foil on small surf days).

I feel into trap one. Even though i knew progression would be challenging reading dudes experiences on the interweb and even though i knew my progression would also include learning to set up the foil as i made it myself without any prior experience. I still secretly expected to jump on the thing and ride like a legend from day 1. Day one came around and I was a complete muppet at just body dragging. WTF is this?
I was however got at taking the foil out in any condition that was possible. Often times i also tried conditions that were not possible..... hehehe.

How's this for a demonstration of kite control & foiling... (apologies for any reposts of old info)



or this one - solid footwork btw...

Greg Drexler is my inspiration big time. Supreme kite control. That Dutch dude with the Uno is pretty damn handy too!

Cool Vid with the Uno and Zeeko Carbon foil with Carver wing. the board pretty much makes sure you don't put your front foot too far forward hey!

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Plummet said..

bigtone667 said..
My two cents worth....

If you treat foiling in the same way you did initially learning, then there will be no disappointment in your rate of progression. I see really great kiters (superb kiters!) struggling because they expect to be up and running first go. And 1 percent are lucky enough to do this. For the rest of us, it's months of work or longer if you do not have a suitable local spot.

The other point I would make is, most good kiters take a foil along to ride until the conditions are good enough for their preferred style. This means they do not give themselves enough time to bed in the muscle memory.

I was suffered from both points above, but once I found a good local location and committed to a good hour or three each time I went kiting, i progressed enormously (and now, I don't even bother riding anything but the foil on small surf days).

I feel into trap one. Even though i knew progression would be challenging reading dudes experiences on the interweb and even though i knew my progression would also include learning to set up the foil as i made it myself without any prior experience. I still secretly expected to jump on the thing and ride like a legend from day 1. Day one came around and I was a complete muppet at just body dragging. WTF is this?
I was however got at taking the foil out in any condition that was possible. Often times i also tried conditions that were not possible..... hehehe.

I don't have your very serious swell, but I am taking the beasts out in anything up to thirty knots and any waves I can find. I had some really nice two foot rollers yesterday and it is just sensational sliding down/across a wave.

My challenge is to pick the correct kite so I do not end up being an uncontrollable missile going down the wave.

The Cloud kites are pretty cool and the de-power and small sizes are just awesome in the bigger winds.

I am up to figuring out how to swap feet, tack and wanting to do those little pirouettes that Greg Drexler is doing. I just haven't mentally visualised how to do any of it without smashing myself to bits. Helmet on, I say.

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bigtone667 said..

Plummet said..

bigtone667 said..
My two cents worth....

If you treat foiling in the same way you did initially learning, then there will be no disappointment in your rate of progression. I see really great kiters (superb kiters!) struggling because they expect to be up and running first go. And 1 percent are lucky enough to do this. For the rest of us, it's months of work or longer if you do not have a suitable local spot.

The other point I would make is, most good kiters take a foil along to ride until the conditions are good enough for their preferred style. This means they do not give themselves enough time to bed in the muscle memory.

I was suffered from both points above, but once I found a good local location and committed to a good hour or three each time I went kiting, i progressed enormously (and now, I don't even bother riding anything but the foil on small surf days).

I feel into trap one. Even though i knew progression would be challenging reading dudes experiences on the interweb and even though i knew my progression would also include learning to set up the foil as i made it myself without any prior experience. I still secretly expected to jump on the thing and ride like a legend from day 1. Day one came around and I was a complete muppet at just body dragging. WTF is this?
I was however got at taking the foil out in any condition that was possible. Often times i also tried conditions that were not possible..... hehehe.

I don't have your very serious swell, but I am taking the beasts out in anything up to thirty knots and any waves I can find. I had some really nice two foot rollers yesterday and it is just sensational sliding down/across a wave.

My challenge is to pick the correct kite so I do not end up being an uncontrollable missile going down the wave.

The Cloud kites are pretty cool and the de-power and small sizes are just awesome in the bigger winds.

I am up to figuring out how to swap feet, tack and wanting to do those little pirouettes that Greg Drexler is doing. I just haven't mentally visualised how to do any of it without smashing myself to bits. Helmet on, I say.

Sounds like I am at a similar progression level. Yeah the missile going down the wave is an issue. My solution is to rig as stupidly small as possible and then shut the power down of the kite on the wave. If youi have the wave and kite power combo that is when you become a missile. I'm also experimenting in slowly down close to stall speed before the wave hits. So when the wave hits it speeds you up to normal speed rather than going normal speed to missile speed.

Sometimes the just charges straight past me!.... its a challenge.

that ozone video is interesting. Like riding attached to an angry bumblebee. I found it helpful in better understanding how it is all these guys are posting reports about riding 3m kites in 20kts -- a lot of looping and then a lot of speed with apparent wind once you get going.

Problem is, my interest is in riding those little swell trains down-wind ... I question if it would be possible with such a small kite. With so much looping and attention to the kite to keep it from crashing, seems like you couldn't really concentrate on carving in the waves. Ozone guy does it briefly around 3min mark ... and then you notice that nice silence when he's going with the wind.

I suspect a larger kite is in order ... ideally with enough power that it can drift without attention. But then you run into the downwind surf missile problem you two are talking about (I like that missile description by the way). Maxed out straight downwind riding on your tiptoes hoping it will just slow down even just a tiny bit so that you can start a turn....

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juandesooka said..
that ozone video is interesting. Like riding attached to an angry bumblebee. I found it helpful in better understanding how it is all these guys are posting reports about riding 3m kites in 20kts -- a lot of looping and then a lot of speed with apparent wind once you get going.

Problem is, my interest is in riding those little swell trains down-wind ... I question if it would be possible with such a small kite. With so much looping and attention to the kite to keep it from crashing, seems like you couldn't really concentrate on carving in the waves. Ozone guy does it briefly around 3min mark ... and then you notice that nice silence when he's going with the wind.

I suspect a larger kite is in order ... ideally with enough power that it can drift without attention. But then you run into the downwind surf missile problem you two are talking about (I like that missile description by the way). Maxed out straight downwind riding on your tiptoes hoping it will just slow down even just a tiny bit so that you can start a turn....

Yes you can ride down wind on those little kites. As an experiment in shifty winds yesterday I put up my 10 and was over powered. I put up one of my school 6 meter Cats just to see what it would be like as I only have 8 Reo as my smallest personal kite. Was riding it in 12 knots to 15 and sometimes dropping right off 8 or knots. The down wind reach was no different than my 10 as you already have your speed. If the kite started to drop out a simple loop or two across a narrow part of the power zone would zip it back up again. I am now going to go out and either get a little Cloud, or an Uno. At 20 knots plus these kites are the go for the style of riding I like. The only difficulty would be for those who don't have their transitions down and they kill off all there speed in the turn. Little kites need plenty of loops to regenerate the power.

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juandesooka said..
that ozone video is interesting. Like riding attached to an angry bumblebee. I found it helpful in better understanding how it is all these guys are posting reports about riding 3m kites in 20kts -- a lot of looping and then a lot of speed with apparent wind once you get going.

Problem is, my interest is in riding those little swell trains down-wind ... I question if it would be possible with such a small kite. With so much looping and attention to the kite to keep it from crashing, seems like you couldn't really concentrate on carving in the waves. Ozone guy does it briefly around 3min mark ... and then you notice that nice silence when he's going with the wind.

I suspect a larger kite is in order ... ideally with enough power that it can drift without attention. But then you run into the downwind surf missile problem you two are talking about (I like that missile description by the way). Maxed out straight downwind riding on your tiptoes hoping it will just slow down even just a tiny bit so that you can start a turn....

Nah, The smaller the kite the better for waves. It drifts better, it loops better, its positionable faster, relaunches fast. With the correct amount of power on tap you can fly and loop them anywhere in the window without being pulled of the board. Board direction changes are easier.

Essentially everything is better for running with the swell on a smaller kite. With one exception. If you then want to head back out to sea and get closed out by a monster set you wont be boosting over the white wash any time soon on a teny tiny kite.

You just need to get your head around the fast flying kites and the change in technique from big lazy kites.

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Plummet said..

You just need to get your head around the fast flying kites and the change in technique from big lazy kites.

Fair enough. For wave kiting, the best case scenario for me is "set and forget" wave kites....just drift along with you waiting for instructions, ride the wave then re-engage kite and off you go.

For foiling, I have found this is also the case for downwind swell rides, kite just happily sits there at 11:30ish while cruising and carving along. However, for the kite to do that, you are pretty juiced up for the regular cross wind winds. I have been experimenting with going a sizes smaller than would be possible with surfboard, say 6m at 18-20kts. This makes for fun, effortless riding, but if I attempt the drift downwind routine, the kite will back stall. So yes, I guess if I want to do this and ride a smaller kite, I am going to have to learn to loop more effectively.

However, if you advance to 3:07 in that ozone video.....I don't buy it that that kind of tiny kite flying is going to work while wave riding. Picture doing bottom turn, top turn combos carving down the line, while also frantically looping like that? That seems vaguely like riding a unicycle while juggling ... may be possible, but may be a different style than I'm after. ;-) [dunno, all just guesswork at this point, not enough foil riders around here, I need to see it done in person]

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juandesooka said..

However, if you advance to 3:07 in that ozone video.....I don't buy it that that kind of tiny kite flying is going to work while wave riding. Picture doing bottom turn, top turn combos carving down the line, while also frantically looping like that? That seems vaguely like riding a unicycle while juggling ... may be possible, but may be a different style than I'm after. ;-) [dunno, all just guesswork at this point, not enough foil riders around here, I need to see it done in person]

That kite flying at 3.07 + is a back stalled pivot turn. He's choosing to do that for ****s and giggles. You dont have to do that if you don't want to. It does have some nice advantages of looping with almost no power and then provides a wang of power when you let it out of the loop.

But you are right its a different style to simply drifting. I personally prefer the work it style than the drift it style.

Have you tried drifting your 6m in light winds completely letting go of the bar? that might help with back stalling in lighter winds.

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Plummet said..

That kite flying at 3.07 + is a back stalled pivot turn. He's choosing to do that for ****s and giggles. You dont have to do that if you don't want to. It does have some nice advantages of looping with almost no power and then provides a wang of power when you let it out of the loop.

But you are right its a different style to simply drifting. I personally prefer the work it style than the drift it style.

Have you tried drifting your 6m in light winds completely letting go of the bar? that might help with back stalling in lighter winds.

Letting go....that sounds like chaos!

Reminds me of the advice in one of the Ben Wilson how to videos....
Rule #1: when you wipeout in waves, always fly your kite. Rule #2: if you can't fly your kite, let go.

Like convincing the kite newbie with the death grip that the safest route is to release control ... where kiting meets zen buddhism.

Anyways I digress, sorry to derail the thread with non first foil experiences.

Downwind missile :) that is exactly what I've been experiencing too. It all starts off fine until I catch a wave which immediately accelerates me down the face and thru the one in front too. Having some epic crashes which hurt :)

I've been riding an 8m in 20 knots which is way too big, but I've now just ordered a 5m Boost 2. I have also a 3.5 Cloud but the power is too peaky / binary for me .... I find it harder to ride than my 8m which just plods along.

Im yet to feel I'm foil surfing, it's more like powered foiling in waves to date. The exceptions few and far between where I've virtually let go of the bar and had a beautiful silent drift down the face. That's the goal for me.

Shouldn't this entire thread be moved to the newbie section ?

Laurie please do it FFS

Thought this was too good not to share.

Just proves it still goes wrong for the experienced riders too !

faaark, lucky you weren't hurt crashing in to your foil like that! phew!

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jamesperth said..
Thought this was too good not to share.

Just proves it still goes wrong for the experienced riders too !

Gybing is soooooo much safer ... lol

Ive been thinking about this looping verses drifting downwind business.

I think you can only go so far down wind drifting. After that point you must loop.

Or put another way you can go deeper using the looping technique.

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Found myself on some shoulder high clean peeling faces today on the foil.

So I tried out the techniques I've been working on in the wind swell.

They worked a treat. I can claim several successful wave rides with out downwind rocket ship missile.

Woohoo!

Anyone have any tips for dealing with lots of short period, disorganised wind swell while foiling in gusty light winds? I'm finding it hard to to keep balanced between the foil, swell and on/off wind {11-17 kts} . The main issue is my mast/foil goes from fully buried one second to barely covered/cavitating the next. Trying to go up and down with the swell, but given the very short period and flukey wind, it's very unstable.

Any views on:
- longer mast (riding a 30" / 76cm mast)?
- or bigger kite/more power (was on a 7m Pivot)?
- better technique?

longer mast for sure....and as you go over the short period swell or chop drive your front foot down more. Early days of foiling I was struggling with chop swells wanting to roll the wing on me resulting in many crashes. It's easier now with more time foiling to correct without getting slammed. Every micro movement used to send me into the drink. Don't know what type of foil you ride or your weight, but you should be fine with that kite.

Thanks, will try the longer mast. Pushing the nose down is a little tricky as the angle of wind and swell at my local means I keep pushing the nose of my board into the next wave.

On Jim Stringfellow foil set up (quite stable) that is bolted to an old LF Fish. Thinking of switching to a shorter wakeskate soon as well.

Definitely go to longer mast.
I've had a couple of goes in lake chop and just been skimming tops and hearing wing starting to vent. And that's with a 90cm mast.

Pump through the chop like a bmx rider riding through a rhythm section.

Yes. Longer mast.

A bit of foil porn for you guys