I figured out my problem today (needing to put a lot of weight on the back foot). A bit embarrassing - I set up the Zeeko foil incorrectly! What a f&*#en idiot I am - had the back wing on the bottom and the fin on top(!) An instructor noticed after having a go on my board (he noticed the foil was not right straight away).

Anyway - now that is resolved I am finally foiling!!! BigTone - I followed your advice and had the foil mounted in the rear position and my back foot was in front of the rear strap (partly on top of it). I am so stoked to finally be foiling! Best run was 20 seconds plus and I even managed a successful jibe (on the water not on the foil). Woohoo! It helped the wind was perfect - 13-16 knots and very stable, was on the 13m Edge, but ready to go back to the 9m now. Thanks for all the advice/tips - they have been very helpful

Great stuff

Doh! A guy at our beach had his mast and fuselage on backwards.

Oh no.

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Piros said..
For learning I recommend 2 loose straps. It just makes it so much easier to start and get set. The straps can be used like handles to pull the board bcak around. The foil gets caught in the current and pulls you around backwards and you have to ditch the board and body drag back . Really hard just with one strap plus when you start and blow it you get the painful ankle stretch just with one strap.

If you start and foil start up and fall continually try taking your back out and put it in front of the back strap this will let you start flat and not foil. It's a tough learning curve but I love just it. Hang in there it will come and your brain will switch off that back foot pressure to let you balance on the foil.

This is a video I did for Slingshot of my kite foil learning experience and the second one is us testing Lift foils on our Sups to see if they carry the weight of the board and rider , we plan to paddle in on these.

Today had my first kite foil attempt.
I was on Slingshot Alien and 15in mast.
Wind 10 to just under 15kn on flat water with 11m kite.
After taking into all above advice and experiences I went with front foot strap only which suited me perfectly.
Mast was also adjusted to the most further back position.
After a few false starts all fell into place with one run 200m both ways jybing to toe side on return and up on foil several times.
Wind droped to 10kn and all went bad so quit while in front. Keen for more.

Awesome to hear those reports from more first time foilers !

My 2c on kite size - i wouldn't rush to immediately ride to smaller kites after just one or two sessions, save this until you are making regular controlled foiling runs (50m+) on both tacks. Feedback from others has suggested this has set them back in their progression as what they achieved on their 12 couldn't be reproduced on their 8 in the same conditions (for example)

The only reason small kites work with foils is because of the apparent wind you can create when riding fast. To ride fast with less power (changing down right ?) we therefore need less drag, and this only happens when we are riding up on the foil. Getting foiling when underpowered can be quite tricky and a PITA if you are on a small board... why waste time with this when you really want to be logging hours up on the foil sorting out the nuances of foot pressure and angles etc.

In contrast, "normal" sized kites allow you to simply park and ride, allowing you to concentrate solely on what's happening under your feet. A large kite also gives you something to lean against - Wait till you start riding downwind and you have no line tension to lean against and you'll see - it gets much harder.

So don't be too quick to get rid of the bigger kites ! It won't take long till your pumping up kites half the size of your mates showing off your new skills.

Agree 100%

I'm starting to see why this foiling isn't a beginner experience. I am comfortable starting and riding the foil but most of my rides are ending as I run out of power and slowly drop in height as I slow down. Although no where near as experienced as many on the forum, I'm somewhat past being a total beginner but I'm feeling like I'm really going to have to sharpen up my kite skills if I'm going to progress.

Still, I'm starting to 'get' the board part of it so I'll hopefully soon be able to put a few more percent of my concentration back into what the kite is doing.

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weebitbreezy said..
I'm starting to see why this foiling isn't a beginner experience. I am comfortable starting and riding the foil but most of my rides are ending as I run out of power and slowly drop in height as I slow down. Although no where near as experienced as many on the forum, I'm somewhat past being a total beginner but I'm feeling like I'm really going to have to sharpen up my kite skills if I'm going to progress.

Still, I'm starting to 'get' the board part of it so I'll hopefully soon be able to put a few more percent of my concentration back into what the kite is doing.

So you water start, and start foiling. Then you loose power and slowly drop in height? that's a weird one. My foil will hold you up until you reach stall point then it just drops you onto the water.

I'm trying to understand how this would happen.

1) you are significantly underpowered. Say 8m sub 10 knots. but you would have lots of trouble water starting and getting on the foil.
2) you are riding at the kite broad reach.
3) you have the kite in the complete wrong place.
4) trying to crank upwind too high?

What size kite are you running and what is the wind?
What angle are you going in respect to the wind?
Do you have to work the **** out the kite to water start and start foiling.

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weebitbreezy said..
I'm starting to see why this foiling isn't a beginner experience. I am comfortable starting and riding the foil but most of my rides are ending as I run out of power and slowly drop in height as I slow down. Although no where near as experienced as many on the forum, I'm somewhat past being a total beginner but I'm feeling like I'm really going to have to sharpen up my kite skills if I'm going to progress.

Still, I'm starting to 'get' the board part of it so I'll hopefully soon be able to put a few more percent of my concentration back into what the kite is doing.

I think I experience this when riding toeside with an under powered kite. When I turn heelside to toeside, and fly the kite through power zone, I am well powered. But then gradually lose power and drop slowly towards water surface. Then left riding with board on water surface until find enough power to get back up. That sound like it? If so, possible culprits:

1. angling too hard upwind....too extreme an angle and you lose your apparent wind. Bear off 90 degrees to it or even a little downwind to gain speed. You can then push upwind until you feel the loss of power, then bear off to gain speed, repeat, kind of an S turn pattern.

2. not working your kite enough....if under powered, you can't park and ride, need to sine it or loop it to gain power. (personally I find it really hard to sine kite riding toeside, so this is where i notice this most)

Not sure about the underpowered thing. I ride with my 7m kite in just about all conditions. I weigh 76kg. If the wind is strong enough to drag me through the sand a bit on the beach then I can foil. I did this almost from the start of foiling.

I don't think prescribing specific kites sizes is useful. It should only take one or two goes to work out what works for you. Initially go a bigger kite so you have the power to easily water start and stop yourself falling in. As soon as you can reliably ride on the foil try out smaller sizes.

Provided the wind is not blasting, I found riding a smaller kite in stronger winds much easier. The kite rarely crashes and relaunches easily. There was sufficient controllable power to deal with whatever events were happening with board and foil and kite. The adverse effects of waves are greatly overstated. The foil happily deals with chop up to half a metre.

Gorgo - what are the max winds you foil in with the 7m?

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HeavyInt said..
Gorgo - what are the max winds you foil in with the 7m?

25 gusting to 30 knots. Take the 30 knots with a grain of salt. That's the recorded gust on a weather station 4km away out in the bay.

20-25 is comfortable and fun. Above 25 can be a bit sketchy.

In a northerly it would be fairly accurate because the wind is offshore to the north so the fetch is short and the waves smaller.

In a southerly we get quite big waves so if it was a true 30 knots I would probably ride the surfboard. I have had sessions where we've done a coast run on the foil then I've switched to the surfboard for a bit of slashing and boosting.

I have moved to a higher performance carbon foil. It likes going faster in chop. The Liquid Force used to broach if it went too fast.

As a newb you will be hanging on with the kite vertical and getting more and more speed until you explode. The worst is when you come up behind a wave and the front wing shoots out the front. That passes with practice.

The technique is to lead with your head and shoulders and dip your body down into the troughs. That swoops the foil down and you get a neat little carve. You'll still get the odd face plant. They'll still hurt.

This was happening to me the other week but in an overpowered sort of way.
i haven't the skill level yet to control lots of power so with kite high and bar way out I was comfy but lowering kite and powering up was asking for a ride to oblivion so things sort of faded to touchdown.
after reading some of the advice above, I'm sure it was an overpowered thing and I just have to work through it.
in regards to smaller kites, going down to my 8m was the best thing I ever did.
and the longer lines.
that combo is my best friend.
now the target is to ditch the nervous energy and relax.

1st full length hover glide with alien 4.8 ocean sess strapless today, ages to get started, short stoked run once up (previous 3hrs slingy short mast strapped 500m runs) not easy, 35" foil too heavy to stay on side, board stays flat, sooo... any hot tips for strapless foil deep water ocean starts without getting the board on its side? ps. board is strapless only, no inserts

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pmk said..
1st full length hover glide with alien 4.8 ocean sess strapless today, ages to get started, short stoked run once up (previous 3hrs slingy short mast strapped 500m runs) not easy, 35" foil too heavy to stay on side, sooo... any hot tips for strapless foil deep water ocean starts without getting the board on its side? ps. board is strapless only, no inserts

Nah

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bigtone667 said..

pmk said..
1st full length hover glide with alien 4.8 ocean sess strapless today, ages to get started, short stoked run once up (previous 3hrs slingy short mast strapped 500m runs) not easy, 35" foil too heavy to stay on side, sooo... any hot tips for strapless foil deep water ocean starts without getting the board on its side? ps. board is strapless only, no inserts

Nah

just do it eh once up short light soft board strapless defo felt better

It's the length of that mast which is the issue , it's a bitch to start learning. Use your back hand to pull the board over not the front hand to start. A single front strap makes it easier to learn on longer mast . I know you don't have mounts but you can buy a stick on strap and remove it later or just persevere you'll get it.

@showyrboard
so small and lively
mike from kitethrills sorted it out

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pmk said..
1st full length hover glide with alien 4.8 ocean sess strapless today, ages to get started, short stoked run once up (previous 3hrs slingy short mast strapped 500m runs) not easy, 35" foil too heavy to stay on side, board stays flat, sooo... any hot tips for strapless foil deep water ocean starts without getting the board on its side? ps. board is strapless only, no inserts

The only way I've seen anyone start strapless is by holding their rail with the back hand to keep the board angled, and fly the kite with the front hand. As soon as the kite starts to fly down it will pull you towards the board and you can then put both hands back on the bar. All of the foils I've owned have all sunk too - this has been the only solution.

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jamesperth said..

pmk said..
1st full length hover glide with alien 4.8 ocean sess strapless today, ages to get started, short stoked run once up (previous 3hrs slingy short mast strapped 500m runs) not easy, 35" foil too heavy to stay on side, board stays flat, sooo... any hot tips for strapless foil deep water ocean starts without getting the board on its side? ps. board is strapless only, no inserts

The only way I've seen anyone start strapless is by holding their rail with the back hand to keep the board angled, and fly the kite with the front hand. As soon as the kite starts to fly down it will pull you towards the board and you can then put both hands back on the bar. All of the foils I've owned have all sunk too - this has been the only solution.

yep cheers, shorter arms dont help, will just have to dominate the foot pressure with downwind kite movement, light winds and dw current test technique

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pmk said..
1st full length hover glide with alien 4.8 ocean sess strapless today, ages to get started, short stoked run once up (previous 3hrs slingy short mast strapped 500m runs) not easy, 35" foil too heavy to stay on side, board stays flat, sooo... any hot tips for strapless foil deep water ocean starts without getting the board on its side? ps. board is strapless only, no inserts

It's just hard to do. And you will have to keep at it until you find your own solution.

I have tried front hand, back hand, it's just hard.

As a result I am still foiling with a front strap for launching purposes. And this is limiting my ability to swap feet when up on the foil.

thx think its harder than strapless surfboard, that took a while, means not many doing it lol, will persist...

It's nearly impossible in light wind for me...easier when there's some wind.Board on it's side by holding the tail's rail with the back hand.
Let the kite pull...so don't be leaving it at zenith.
Get a foot on the board; back foot first.
Focus on the back foot heel, pushing against the pull of the kite, holding the board in place...and on its side.
Let go the back hand, get the front foot on.
Redirect the kite and ride.

Basic idea in light wind is to do it all at once as you redirect the kite but the timing is tough. High volume board that wants to go flat constantly is extra tough

My plan is to get up and on top of the board using the power stroke...but timing the redirect of the kite back UP as soon as I'm on the board so I'm not being pulled forwards. Assuming your feet are in the right place, you can use the up stroke to pop it up on the foil too...

You'll have to aim to go more downwind when water starting strapless too...

yep upstrokes downstrokes foot movement etc all while board spins and rolls in waves and current, it just doesnt like being sideways... maybe they could make the foil more buoyant, maybe air pocket inside, to assist it floating on side for dragging and starts, without affecting ride performance?

I learned strapless and still ride strapless. Learned on a LF Fish. Heavy as so will sink fast. But the board was not very boyant hence it did sit half way under water, therefore having the foil perfectly parallel on the water surface. Technique as Kami describes. Grab mid-ish, bit more towards the back of the board with back hand, hold on rail. Use your elbow pressed into the board pad to bring it up. Once up put your feet on it and then use the kite to balance and correct your position. While holding onto the rail of the board mid board, legs obviously bent. Back hand or front had does not matter. Don't start when you are off balance, even just a tiny bit. It will just not work and you rather hurt yourself and waste energy. Better start over again. I then move kite to the opposite directly slightly, then sine, but not too much, just enough to be able to redirect upwards, pull the bar in to have a bit of lift. And yes slightly bear off downwind to pick up speed but don't lose line tension. I let off the board just when sining the kite. Needs practise but works eventually. I am now on a super light and super boyant carbon set up. A bit more nervous in chop. But stays up on its side for half an hour lol, so easier from that perspective.

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Plummet said..

weebitbreezy said..
I'm starting to see why this foiling isn't a beginner experience. I am comfortable starting and riding the foil but most of my rides are ending as I run out of power and slowly drop in height as I slow down. Although no where near as experienced as many on the forum, I'm somewhat past being a total beginner but I'm feeling like I'm really going to have to sharpen up my kite skills if I'm going to progress.

Still, I'm starting to 'get' the board part of it so I'll hopefully soon be able to put a few more percent of my concentration back into what the kite is doing.

So you water start, and start foiling. Then you loose power and slowly drop in height? that's a weird one. My foil will hold you up until you reach stall point then it just drops you onto the water.

I'm trying to understand how this would happen.

1) you are significantly underpowered. Say 8m sub 10 knots. but you would have lots of trouble water starting and getting on the foil.
2) you are riding at the kite broad reach.
3) you have the kite in the complete wrong place.
4) trying to crank upwind too high?

What size kite are you running and what is the wind?
What angle are you going in respect to the wind?
Do you have to work the **** out the kite to water start and start foiling.

Yep. Waterstart, ride up to speed. Start foiling for say 50-100m and start sinking down. Touch down. Dive kite to pick up speed and go for another glide. Travelling more like beam reach in direction. Don't think I'm going to close to the wind.

I'm riding a 12m in circa 12-15knots so I should have the power. I suspect its because I'm just parking the kite as I'm concentrating on the board. I seem to remember this being something that happens when learning on a twin tip too. I'm taking the positive that I'm starting to get the muscle memory to balance. Then hopefully I can sort out my kite control again.

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pmk said..
1st full length hover glide with alien 4.8 ocean sess strapless today, ages to get started, short stoked run once up (previous 3hrs slingy short mast strapped 500m runs) not easy, 35" foil too heavy to stay on side, board stays flat, sooo... any hot tips for strapless foil deep water ocean starts without getting the board on its side? ps. board is strapless only, no inserts

As mentioned, the back hand is your friend holding the board on edge. I ride a small wooden paipo that sinks. It took me a session or two to get the hang of getting pressure on my feet so they would stick on the board creating resistance until I swooped the kite. You will get it, but stick with the back hand, As you fly your kite down your feet will stick and you can let go, or if the wind is strong enough you can let go as the kite is pulling. Two things I found helpful: 1. Make sure when you plant your front foot it's in the right place. This is the critical part as it will be easier to move your back foot once you are planing in order to set the foil. 2. Use your back knee to stabilize the pressure before you power your kite and then its easy to let go of the rail and grab the bar with two hands. As you start to power up shift your foot to where your knee was. This helps short armed people such as myself.
As you improve you can keep the kite lower in super light winds to get the pull, then you can loop the kite for more power to get the initial pop out of the water.
On my first session without a front strap I thought I would never get it, but like all things, you eventually figure it out and later you wonder what all the fuss was about. You will be there in no time at all.

The answer is booties

Or a floatie on the bottom of the mast

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pmk said..
thx think its harder than strapless surfboard, that took a while, means not many doing it lol, will persist...

Strapless surfboard is an absolute breeze in comparison.