Why avoid a single front strap?

ha yep, been riding strapless surf for yonks and love it, also no straps inserts in board, any tips to stick a strap on deck grip (temporary) haha, wld need to be secure, some force on take off

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Kamikuza said..
Why avoid a single front strap?

Getting pitched at high speed and not being able to release from the strap. Recipe for knee damage. When I was first learning I had a front strap, and it was "oh so handy". But even super loose I managed to get my foot stuck while being bucked off. I didn't hurt myself, but the potential was very high and I ditched it as soon as I could.

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dafish said..

Kamikuza said..
Why avoid a single front strap?

Getting pitched at high speed and not being able to release from the strap. Recipe for knee damage. When I was first learning I had a front strap, and it was "oh so handy". But even super loose I managed to get my foot stuck while being bucked off. I didn't hurt myself, but the potential was very high and I ditched it as soon as I could.

I started off with single front foot hook.

No chance of getting stuck in that. Worked good for the period of furious crashing in the first month.

But I have lots of swell, chop currents, wind gusts. All those things are super hard strapped or single front foot hook.

Once I got past that initial stage and could do control glides on each tack I ditched the foot hook for 2 super loose straps.
The straps a the way and the light for me. I have them so big and loose I can stand in the middle of them and feel like i'm strapless. Then I can lock my feet into them if need be.

I find the 2 loose straps easy to exit out of in a crash.

Yeah, ok. The Slingshot straps are tiny compared to the LF ones...I could see that happening if your luck was really bad.

To day was my second attempt

Very different not the success of the first day.
Wind 20kn and onshore in a new location. Too much for me this time.

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eddiemorgs said..
This thread has been great - so thought I might add my two cents of lessons as far

- Turning the board - upwind , downwind - seems to be twisting motion with your feet ??? Rather than leaning



Cheers

Eddie

I've found twisting at the hips when changing direction helps Eddie.
Hope you bring it down south, we can practice synchronize wipe outs together.

Don't have those straps to tight.
I thought mine were loose enough until a wipe out the other day. Ankle is paying for it.

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high as a kite said..

eddiemorgs said..
This thread has been great - so thought I might add my two cents of lessons as far

- Turning the board - upwind , downwind - seems to be twisting motion with your feet ??? Rather than leaning



Cheers

Eddie

I've found twisting at the hips when changing direction helps Eddie.
Hope you bring it down south, we can practice synchronize wipe outs together.

Don't have those straps to tight.
I thought mine were loose enough until a wipe out the other day. Ankle is paying for it.

You can still lean. You just have to be conscious of not edging just the board and forgetting the foil.

Get your head and the kite around, the rest will follow.

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high as a kite said..

eddiemorgs said..
This thread has been great - so thought I might add my two cents of lessons as far

- Turning the board - upwind , downwind - seems to be twisting motion with your feet ??? Rather than leaning



Cheers

Eddie

I've found twisting at the hips when changing direction helps Eddie.
Hope you bring it down south, we can practice synchronize wipe outs together.

Don't have those straps to tight.
I thought mine were loose enough until a wipe out the other day. Ankle is paying for it.

That's sort of what I meant by twisting the feet Ian- connected to the hips . Its something I already do a bit on a sb when riding the fins more than edging the board

I see Kami says we can lean slightly - but dont edge - which makes sense .

Me too , I also have slightly twisted an ankle!

Had a great session in wind and waves on Sunday - not bloody foiling !

Plan to be down at Robe around 1st Feb for a few weeks , so lets catch up and share the pain !
Bomber and the Copleys will be down as well

You can lean as much as you like, but you still have to keep it balanced all the way down to the foil. Just image your board is at the bottom of the mast

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Plan to be down at Robe around 1st Feb for a few weeks , so lets catch up and share the pain !
Bomber and the Copleys will be down as well

Make sure you order the wind. Its been a **** summer so far.
I guess first ramp will be the best spot for foiling?

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eddiemorgs said..
- Turning the board - upwind , downwind - seems to be twisting motion with your feet ??? Rather than leaning
Eddie

Got to admit, I can't quite get my head around this. It seems like you are describing that beginner snowboarding move where you use hip momentum (as opposed to carving the board) to turn the board.

In my head, I imagined I needed to turn the foil in the same way an aeroplane turns (assuming no rudder) - tilt to windward/leeward ,bank and tilt back to centre again. Is this wrong then?

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weebitbreezy said..

eddiemorgs said..
- Turning the board - upwind , downwind - seems to be twisting motion with your feet ??? Rather than leaning
Eddie

Got to admit, I can't quite get my head around this. It seems like you are describing that beginner snowboarding move where you use hip momentum (as opposed to carving the board) to turn the board.

In my head, I imagined I needed to turn the foil in the same way an aeroplane turns (assuming no rudder) - tilt to windward/leeward ,bank and tilt back to centre again. Is this wrong then?

It's a combination of beginner snowboard sliding turn and a leaned over carving turn. Depends on the situation: more of one, less of the other. With that goes fore/aft weight shift too...

Weebitbreezy - I turn the foil primarily by leaning (or you could say edging) the foil exactly like you describe. I don't think about it too much to be honest, it seems to happen naturally. You know when you have reached the limits of the board when the rail starts hitting the water upwind - time to switch to a narrower race. board.

Having said all that, im finding on the spitfire I'm getting more consistent heel side rurns by sweeping my front foot back under me as well as edging the foil. This is new to me but I think it's a result of the spitfire has very little lateral resistance. I've always ridden race foils with wing tips before and these give a great tracking feeling. The spitfire has small flat wings and I really notice I can yaw the foil if I want. It's changing my riding style to a certain extent.

But it on a conventional setup I just bank the whole thing over and around she goes. I practised this by making small S turns that progressed to full carving gybes to and from toe side over time.

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weebitbreezy said..

eddiemorgs said..
- Turning the board - upwind , downwind - seems to be twisting motion with your feet ??? Rather than leaning
Eddie

Got to admit, I can't quite get my head around this. It seems like you are describing that beginner snowboarding move where you use hip momentum (as opposed to carving the board) to turn the board.

In my head, I imagined I needed to turn the foil in the same way an aeroplane turns (assuming no rudder) - tilt to windward/leeward ,bank and tilt back to centre again. Is this wrong then?

Hey Breezy, I think both Eddie and I are referring to small directional changes not carving. Board still on water.

Hmmm. I think there's some over thinking going on regarding turning the foil.

Just lean in and turn. To me the analogy is like riding a mountain bike on a burm or a bmx round a bmx track or a skateboard on around a skate bowl or a lazy carve on a wave.

All the same process. Lean into the turn. Don't fight it, relax into it. Fly the kite to keep power up. Job done.

On a side note. The biggest issue i have with my lumpy water is breaching the wings when leaning over. I have to be aware of how deep the foil is and what swell/chop is about to hit so i don't get any breaches.

Side note. I foiled in a flat lake with may 1 foot chop. Man that way easy peasy japanesey compared to my chop/swell combo!

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Plummet said..

INTHELOOP said..
Here is a little video i made a while back to help everybody to learn how to foil tack.The foil tack is the 1st manoeuvre you should learn. Then the foil gybe- will make an Instructional video about that soon..

make sure your foil/board is trimmed good. Having equal pressure on both feet a good starting point. Stance should be between 50-60cm ( measured closest strap screws)

Why learn the tack first? all other advice I've been given is learn the gybe first.

Care to share why you suggest the tack should be used first.

It is easier and safer. You need less lift to foil tack. You don't have to loop kite. Less body and feet movement. you can fly kite over head too at gybe but not easy to do.

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INTHELOOP said..

Plummet said..

INTHELOOP said..
Here is a little video i made a while back to help everybody to learn how to foil tack.The foil tack is the 1st manoeuvre you should learn. Then the foil gybe- will make an Instructional video about that soon..

make sure your foil/board is trimmed good. Having equal pressure on both feet a good starting point. Stance should be between 50-60cm ( measured closest strap screws)

Why learn the tack first? all other advice I've been given is learn the gybe first.

Care to share why you suggest the tack should be used first.

It is easier and safer. You need less lift to foil tack. You don't have to loop kite. Less body and feet movement. you can fly kite over head too at gybe but not easy to do.

Righto. Its on my agenda for next time conditions are right.

What's the progression before this? do the tack to toeside without foot charge?
Do you do a surface duck tack first?

Looks freaken cool.

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Plummet said..

INTHELOOP said..

Plummet said..

INTHELOOP said..
Here is a little video i made a while back to help everybody to learn how to foil tack.The foil tack is the 1st manoeuvre you should learn. Then the foil gybe- will make an Instructional video about that soon..

make sure your foil/board is trimmed good. Having equal pressure on both feet a good starting point. Stance should be between 50-60cm ( measured closest strap screws)

Why learn the tack first? all other advice I've been given is learn the gybe first.

Care to share why you suggest the tack should be used first.

It is easier and safer. You need less lift to foil tack. You don't have to loop kite. Less body and feet movement. you can fly kite over head too at gybe but not easy to do.

Righto. Its on my agenda for next time conditions are right.

What's the progression before this? do the tack to toeside without foot charge?
Do you do a surface duck tack first?

Looks freaken cool.

With your level of confidence you'll be just fine

hydrofoil bodyboard, what do u think? I'm gonna get one

@2:54

I think the two biggest mistakes people make are;

1. Thinking it's going to be hard.

2. Using techniques that work to ride other craft.


If you simply try and ride around with the board on the water (not foiling) for long enough you will reset you "normal" register and after a while you will just start foiling naturally without even understanding how you did it. Having a decent foil and putting your feet in the right spot (especially back foot) makes a big difference and obviously it helps to have someone that can foil already to watch and help tell you how to do that and what you're doing wrong. But I believe you could do that by yourself if you just remain patient and not try and foil too soon or aggressively.

I don't believe learning to foil is any harder than riding any other type of board properly. Once you have the technique riding a foil involves less variables than a normal board due to the water the foil moves through being more or less static (in comparison to the chop experienced riding other boards on top of the water).

My two cents.

I have to disagree somewhat Rowdy in the aspect if there is no one around to show you, (which was my case). It is harder than other boards because the crashes hurt more, the mast and wing cut easily (lines and bodies) and it is beast in the first few hours. However, I have been able to help others who are starting now and have used my experience to help them navigate the pitfalls. Even something as small as trying to body drag with a foil to deeper water is tricky until you have worked it out, but if someone shows you how to hold the board it makes it easier. Every board (not foil) has been easy compared to this. Also, the foil is hard at first to manage than other boards because every little micro move translates to a bigger move on the wing. Its easy to make a little adjustment and have the foil roll or pitch and then vent. On a surfboard you have so much contact with the water the board is quite stable regardless of the chop. But as one progresses you learn about subtle body movements, rolling the hips or dropping a knee to keep the foil steady in rising and falling swell. But like all things, with persistence and 5 to 10 hours of struggle town it is easy to get up and ride. Then comes the learning of the transitions, which is a whole other level of fun.

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dafish said..
I have to disagree somewhat Rowdy in the aspect if there is no one around to show you, (which was my case).

How do you disagree? I said it helps to have someone around to show you... so you're saying it doesn't?

In regards to the rest of what I said, when I say "foiling" I'm meerly talking about moving along the water with a degree of confidence. I believe that to be no harder than any other board I've ridden. Sure most can step on a surfboard and ride along poorly straight away maybe, but that's because they already learnt to ride a twintip... if you hadn't done that it would be just as hard. I'm just trying to point out that the skills needed are no harder than any other board, just different.

Most people who have learnt to foil look like they know what they are doing, I still see people 5years down the track that look out of control on a surfboard riding through chop... that was also the difference I was making (in regards to consistency of water). Certainly foil tacks and gybes are harder than on a surfboard or wakeskate, but there's also many other things that are hard you can do on a surf or wakeskate that you will never do on a foil. They are all as hard as each other (as hard as you make it).

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sir ROWDY said..
I think the two biggest mistakes people make are;

1. Thinking it's going to be hard.

2. Using techniques that work to ride other craft.


If you simply try and ride around with the board on the water (not foiling) for long enough you will reset you "normal" register and after a while you will just start foiling naturally without even understanding how you did it. Having a decent foil and putting your feet in the right spot (especially back foot) makes a big difference and obviously it helps to have someone that can foil already to watch and help tell you how to do that and what you're doing wrong. But I believe you could do that by yourself if you just remain patient and not try and foil too soon or aggressively.

I don't believe learning to foil is any harder than riding any other type of board properly. Once you have the technique riding a foil involves less variables than a normal board due to the water the foil moves through being more or less static (in comparison to the chop experienced riding other boards on top of the water).

My two cents.

You did say that you can do it by yourself if you are patient and I agree, however my learning curve would have been easier if I had someone to teach me or someone I could watch closely. If people had the kite flying skills down pat before they ever put on a tt they would certainly be able to ride straight away as the board is dead easy to master. But combined with being green with a kite in the air, and trying to get to your feet it is difficult. Most people learning to foil have mastered their flying skills, or are at least pretty good with the kite, and they hit struggle town in the first few hours of foiling. Also, bear in mind that you have above average skills and perhaps you are able to acquire them with greater ease than others.

Way back it became apparent that kiteboarding was over 90% kite flying skills.
it is also apparent that each new level you move to again tests your kite flying skills.
i am wondering just what level of kite flying skills would be the minimum to start foiling.

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RAL INN said..
Way back it became apparent that kiteboarding was over 90% kite flying skills.
it is also apparent that each new level you move to again tests your kite flying skills.
i am wondering just what level of kite flying skills would be the minimum to start foiling.

IMO you hardly use your kite once on a foil (at least when I learnt). Just make sure you have enough power to almost ride along ok on a normal board (not overpowered). You can get moving and then when you start foiling move the kite directly over your head and leave it there, this requires very little kite flying skills (obviously turning around etc is a whole different thing).
What I've seen from watching friends learn is that most think they need to use the kite more than they actually do, i.e. swooping it too much, muscling the bar too much - instead of just leaning back on the chicken line and lightly handling the bar with small inputs once riding.

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dafish said..

You did say that you can do it by yourself if you are patient and I agree, however my learning curve would have been easier if I had someone to teach me or someone I could watch closely. If people had the kite flying skills down pat before they ever put on a tt they would certainly be able to ride straight away as the board is dead easy to master. But combined with being green with a kite in the air, and trying to get to your feet it is difficult. Most people learning to foil have mastered their flying skills, or are at least pretty good with the kite, and they hit struggle town in the first few hours of foiling. Also, bear in mind that you have above average skills and perhaps you are able to acquire them with greater ease than others.

Ok, so you agree and that is also what I think/ said .

Foiling has the added 3rd dimension of up/down in relation to forward/back, side/side. So really we should be comparing apples to apples - riding a TT and doing jumps would be the same level as riding on the foil. Thus foiling would be similar to someone trying to get air on a TT in their first session... which IMO would be just as hard.

Riding any type of board is relative. Yes foiling properly is harder than riding a TT poorly, but all craft are as hard as each other to ride properly (just my opinion of course from riding them).

People put themselves on a back foot by thinking Foiling is going to be super hard because all their friends have told them so. I'm merely trying to change that perspective as I honestly don't feel it's that hard, people just have the wrong outlook on it and loose confidence as people are telling them they aren't going to do it very quickly. I think this makes a big difference to people.

p.s.
You should note I did actually say "I don't think foiling is any harder than riding any other type of board properly" (which is different to if I'd said - riding for the first time, or poorly).

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RAL INN said..
Way back it became apparent that kiteboarding was over 90% kite flying skills.
it is also apparent that each new level you move to again tests your kite flying skills.
i am wondering just what level of kite flying skills would be the minimum to start foiling.

I think Ral Inn and Sir Rowdy both made excellent points above.

Riding the board flat on the surface is an excellent way to reset the muscle memory from years of back foot biased twin tipping and SB riding. Getting control of it in terms of being able to ride upwind, downwind and so on flat I think is a must before you try the same thing flying on the foil.

In terms of kite skills, my own opinion is that there is so much new information to process with a hydrofoil that kite skills ideally would be at that second nature stage where you don't have to watch the kite constantly and being able to fly onehanded is a must , especially for those who want to learn strapless.

Light wind foiling?like sub 10 knots - I think kite skills are critical. I consider myself a competent kiter after 7 season but still get shown up regularly by cbulota when it comes to light winds. I always get off the water wishing I was better in one way or another - partly it's what keeps me coming back and that's what foiling has given me last two summers .... a new challenge

My two cents worth....

If you treat foiling in the same way you did initially learning, then there will be no disappointment in your rate of progression. I see really great kiters (superb kiters!) struggling because they expect to be up and running first go. And 1 percent are lucky enough to do this. For the rest of us, it's months of work or longer if you do not have a suitable local spot.

The other point I would make is, most good kiters take a foil along to ride until the conditions are good enough for their preferred style. This means they do not give themselves enough time to bed in the muscle memory.

I was suffered from both points above, but once I found a good local location and committed to a good hour or three each time I went kiting, i progressed enormously (and now, I don't even bother riding anything but the foil on small surf days).

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bigtone667 said..
My two cents worth....

If you treat foiling in the same way you did initially learning, then there will be no disappointment in your rate of progression. I see really great kiters (superb kiters!) struggling because they expect to be up and running first go. And 1 percent are lucky enough to do this. For the rest of us, it's months of work or longer if you do not have a suitable local spot.

Yeh pretty close to the truth Big T.