If flat out speed is your goal, then I say stick to windsurfing or kiting. I think winging offers much more than pure speed but pushing the equipment towards it's speed potential is never the less a whole lot of fun. I mean who doesn't like to put the hammer down. I probably chase speed maybe 10% of my sessions, so it's not a priority. I've done over 40knts on a windsurf but feel doing 20knts on my wing sketchy as. Right now I'll work on a toe side tack but sneak in the odd speed session. Just for the record, I'll probably hit 30knts before I can toeside tack..arghhh.

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Pcdefender said..
i have been doing lots of research on winging but not yet tried short of for a few minutes without success.

Speed is their downfall no question.

Reaching 30 knots on a windsurfer is not that hard with the right equipment.

Most windsurfers don't get anywhere close to 30 knots in most sessions. The exception to that is flatwater spots used for speedsurfing. But even at relatively flat spots like the Canadian Hole, typical speeds are in the low 20s.

You'd also have to compare apples to apples. Many wingers are in early learning stages; for most windsurfers with a similar number of sessions, even 20 knots seems very fast. More advanced wingers are often into playing with waves or freestyle. Wave sailing can be a rather slow discipline, even if it's not "slog and catch". Freestylers are perhaps faster, but 30 knots on freestyle gear requires the use of sails that are much larger than what a freestyler would typically use (my top speed on freestyle gear of 32 knots was with a 5.5 when a 4.5 would have been the right size freestyle).

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Pcdefender said..
Today i was going past the wingers like they were sailing in reverse gear. Made me think its not really for me.

If you're really into speed, thenmaybeyour conclusion is correct. Or maybe not. I know quite a few speedsurfers who loved speed, but switched entirely to winging because they think it's more fun. And some of them live at spots where the conditions for speedsurfing are perfect, and speed sessions are a ton more fun than even at the best US East Coast spots.

I love speedsurfing when the conditions are right. It took me more than 20 wing sessions to understand why winging could be more fascinating, even at my current "half" speeds. Now, I am very glad that an upcoming trip gave me the motivation to get to this point.

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Pcdefender said..
Using much smaller foils and harness lines should help increase the top speed a few knots no doubt at a compromise of low end.

There is definitely a very clear trend towards smaller foils in winging. A lot of times, the motivator is not speed, however, but rather "better glide" for more fun with swell. The "compromise" at the low end is a lot smaller than one would think. Why wife now uses a 725 front wing in most conditions, and switches to her 1550 front wing (which she now calls "e foil") when the wind is much too light for windsurfers.

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Pcdefender said..
Hoping in a few years there will be a few keeping up with windsurfers but i doubt it.

The same was said a few years ago about windfoiling. It's not really true anymore, except for top speeds at speedsurfing-specific spots. At the top end, the 1 hour results at Lake Garda showed that fins can be faster than foils, even with long reaches where jibes do not matter much. At the other end, I take my own experience. For a couple of years, windsurfers would always pass me very easily when I was windfoiling, once they could plane. But eventually, my typical back-and-forth speeds increased to a level where my windfoil speeds are similar to many windsurfers at our home spot. I'm still quite slow on the foil, but so are most windsurfers here (although they mostly have decades of windsurfing experience).

At many windsurfing spots (including the Canadian Hole), the game most windsurfers play looks rather boring: go out on a beam reach, turn, come back, repeat. At these spots, most windsurfers don't really see an alternative - who wants to do freestyle? Nor do they see a need, since the boring game can actually be a lot of fun. Pushing speed is often just a way to make it less boring.

Winging is quite different. The chop that's good for nothing when windsurfing (except for loops and a bit of jumping) suddenly turns into a fun playground for swell riding. That's so much fun (at least according to the woman who is currently #4 in the overall rankings on the GPS Team Challenge, gpsteamchallenge.com.au/rankings/individual?gender=3) that there is little reason to pursue speed. Based on that, I'd also be skeptical that wing speeds will catch up with windsurf speeds. But I also know of wingers who mostly sail on very flat water, and they seem to be getting into "fun" races at surprisingly large numbers. I would not all all be surprised to see them wing faster than most windsurfers in a few years.

At my local 30 wingers range from learners to a few gybe/tack/360/jumpers, most are freeriding10-15 knots, the good guys 15-20 knots. It's rough when windy and one peaked 24 knots. In those rough conditions I (85kg) would windsurf 78/85l with 4.7m/4.2m and might hit 25 knots. In general winger faster into chop and windsurfer faster with chop.

FYI in international competition the guys were all saying the do 32 -34+ knots peak on their setups (not in the races though I think one guy hit 30 knots). They all use straight up kitefoil race foils (~525cm^2).

I recently went to my local flatter water spot with a short time window and the intention to lay down some speed runs on my Armstrong kit. I had two rigs ready: 525/85M/70F/195T and 725/100M/50F/fv200. I tried the 525 rig first with a 5M and -2 shim. Two mast adjustments later further aft, I switched to a +1 shim. Never found a groove and it felt draggy. I chalked it up to the 70 fuse (never use). Only hit 19.3 mph.

Then I switched to the 100cm mast with 725 and 4M and hit a personal best 22.2 mph pretty easy. Not sure if the smaller wing helped.
I ran that same setup in DW conditions the next day and had a blast. Added the 925 in and he even more fun.

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JohnnyTsunami said..
FYI in international competition the guys were all saying the do 32 -34+ knots peak on their setups (not in the races though I think one guy hit 30 knots). They all use straight up kitefoil race foils (~525cm^2).

That under the water kit is already proven to cruise at 35+ knots with an Ozone R1 series kite. That's way more efficient though than these fat LE turds we are hanging on to with our hands. Maybe JH can hit 30knots for a split second or two on a wet sanded Mikes Lab 525 but seems like the hand wing has become the limiting factor.

I think Mid Atlantic is spot on there at about 22mph. That's about all you can really get out of stock gear. If I see anything on my watch over 23.5 or so I know it's an anomaly.

Video of Alan Cadiz easily hitting 25 to 28 mph -- check out Robert's interview with Alan from a year ago at the 27+ minute mark.

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dejavu said..
Video of Alan Cadiz easily hitting 25 to 28 mph -- check out Robert's interview with Alan from a year ago at the 27+ minute mark.

Yeah, ML foils are the gold standard currently.

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dejavu said..
Video of Alan Cadiz easily hitting 25 to 28 mph -- check out Robert's interview with Alan from a year ago at the 27+ minute mark.

Well...... The Gopro is notoriously inaccurate, we've all seen the video of Alex Aguera supposedly hitting 37mph with the same device. Even an Apple watch is better, approved gps recording devices have been discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseam.

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Thatspec said..

dejavu said..
Video of Alan Cadiz easily hitting 25 to 28 mph -- check out Robert's interview with Alan from a year ago at the 27+ minute mark.

Well...... The Gopro is notoriously inaccurate, we've all seen the video of Alex Aguera supposedly hitting 37mph with the same device. Even an Apple watch is better, approved gps recording devices have been discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseam.

The speed winging I saw Alex doing was ratified with a Locosys Gw60. 33.4MPH. But that was a long time ago. Nothing special about the gear.

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AnyBoard said..

Thatspec said..

dejavu said..
Video of Alan Cadiz easily hitting 25 to 28 mph -- check out Robert's interview with Alan from a year ago at the 27+ minute mark.

Well...... The Gopro is notoriously inaccurate, we've all seen the video of Alex Aguera supposedly hitting 37mph with the same device. Even an Apple watch is better, approved gps recording devices have been discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseam.

The speed winging I saw Alex doing was ratified with a Locosys Gw60. 33.4MPH. But that was a long time ago. Nothing special about the gear.

So "only" 29 knots
Much prefer seeing folks pursuing getting barreled

For the best speed logging device available, try a Mini Motion, (see the GPS and Speed forum over in Windsurfing), Wind Wanderers club in QLD had a few for sale on their website, price includes postage in Australia.

Rode the axis 699 today, 31mph with the hm mast and 34 with nolimitz. 300 tail and sillyshort. Reedin superwing v2 6m in 15-20mph wind

gotta try the 250 with short fuse in flatter water and more wind. Can probably get a few more mph out of it.

At UK speed event with approved GPS over 500m winger did 30 knots and fin windsurfer 38..

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patronus said..
At UK speed event with approved GPS over 500m winger did 30 knots and fin windsurfer 38..

And next year the in the same conditions the fin windsurfer will also do 38 knots, the winger?

This was the kit that the guy used at Weymouth to do 30 knots @ 500m. It looks like a windfoil setup with a long fuselage

30kt over 500m is blazing!

a friend of mine, reached 28kn in 2 sec. on small lake in gusty conditions.
over 10s, ist mostly reach 21.5kn all the time. his setup st:Sabfoil:940 front450 backand 93 Kraken mast.

Do you guys try to "close the gap" when going for upwind or speed efficiency?.Have you found any advantage you could feel or measure?.
Like this guy:
www.instagram.com/reel/CkJgXBLqOkG/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I have tried it but the position is not my "natural" stance and i feel i can push harder with a bit of room between board and wing.

It's nice to ride like that. A gust hits and your wing isn't going to flip and touch a tip, it's going to just hit the board. Of course a giant wing you can't hold that vertical, which is a major problem racing in light air.

I do find the wing a bit further out feels a bit more powered, but you want the wing vertical anyway and with a big wing you need to stability of the board to keep the wing in check. Lots of countervailing forces at play... who knows what the ideal method is.

There is also the endplate effect.