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Ken767 said..
I'm surprised not more people have joined the wing group on ka72.

www.ka72.com/Groups/Group-Activity/groupid/69

Looks fun.
What does the JibeMaster Alpha500 measure?

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mcrt said..

Ken767 said..
I'm surprised not more people have joined the wing group on ka72.

www.ka72.com/Groups/Group-Activity/groupid/69

Looks fun.
What does the JibeMaster Alpha500 measure?

Simple answer: It's one of the speed categories that's used on the windsurfing site GPS Team Challenge. It basically measures how fast you gybe.

Complicated answer: It's your average speed over a full 180 degree turn. The speed is taken from 500m of that turn (that's why it's called alpha500). The turn must not be wider than 50m. Essentially you sail across the wind for roughly 250m, then gybe (or turn around some other way but gybes are usually fastest), then sail another 250m across the wind in the new direction and the alpha would be your average speed over that distance.

It would look like this usually:


That image is from another forum that explains it in even more detail: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/What-is-an-Alpha?page=1

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DJMax said..

mcrt said..

Ken767 said..
I'm surprised not more people have joined the wing group on ka72.

www.ka72.com/Groups/Group-Activity/groupid/69

Looks fun.
What does the JibeMaster Alpha500 measure?

Simple answer: It's one of the speed categories that's used on the windsurfing site GPS Team Challenge. It basically measures how fast you gybe.

Complicated answer: It's your average speed over a full 180 degree turn. The speed is taken from 500m of that turn (that's why it's called alpha500). The turn must not be wider than 50m. Essentially you sail across the wind for roughly 250m, then gybe (or turn around some other way but gybes are usually fastest), then sail another 250m across the wind in the new direction and the alpha would be your average speed over that distance.

It would look like this usually:


That image is from another forum that explains it in even more detail: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/What-is-an-Alpha?page=1

Ok,thx!.
18kt Alpha 500 is jibing like you stole it :)

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mcrt said..

DJMax said..

mcrt said..

Ken767 said..
I'm surprised not more people have joined the wing group on ka72.

www.ka72.com/Groups/Group-Activity/groupid/69

Looks fun.
What does the JibeMaster Alpha500 measure?

Simple answer: It's one of the speed categories that's used on the windsurfing site GPS Team Challenge. It basically measures how fast you gybe.

Complicated answer: It's your average speed over a full 180 degree turn. The speed is taken from 500m of that turn (that's why it's called alpha500). The turn must not be wider than 50m. Essentially you sail across the wind for roughly 250m, then gybe (or turn around some other way but gybes are usually fastest), then sail another 250m across the wind in the new direction and the alpha would be your average speed over that distance.

It would look like this usually:


That image is from another forum that explains it in even more detail: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/What-is-an-Alpha?page=1

Ok,thx!.
18kt Alpha 500 is jibing like you stole it :)

Haha yeah on a wing an 18kt alpha is very fast

The main issue with people claiming top speeds is the inaccuracy of GPS watches. Especially the Apple Watches have many many spikes.

Garmin are a little more reliable but not as reliable as the officially approved GPS devices.

Ka72 is a good place for people to check speed claims, you need to look at the speed difference between each second to determine whether the top speed is a spike or not. This happens a lot when you crash at high speed.

For me the 5 x 10secs runs are the better indicator of top speed. Anyway can achieve a quick 2 sec speed with/without a spike.

I've registered 25kn on my Garmin Fenix with Axis 799/380. But it could well have been just 24kn.

Food for thought.

Food for thought

boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2022/01/measuring-speed-errors-sampling.html?m=1

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Alysum said..
The main issue with people claiming top speeds is the inaccuracy of GPS watches. Especially the Apple Watches have many many spikes.

Garmin are a little more reliable but not as reliable as the officially approved GPS devices.

Good point. I use a garmin to view my speed on water and a motion mini to upload.i find the garmin is pretty accurate and is usually less than a knot difference from the motion.

Djmax, I'm using windsurf foil 580cm wide front wing and a 75cm fuse.

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DJMax said..

EmiD said..
Really interested issue, thanks for posting! Always asking wingers their top speed, but not everyone cares about this. I really do since I feel winging slower than kitefoiling. Personal records:

1. 22knts on 700hps and 400ha rear, 90 mast, custom board of 80L, Vayu Vving 4m and 15-18knts of wind.

2. 21knts on art999 and 420ha rear, 90 mast Vayu Vving 5.4 on same wind conditions.

Just get art799, but havent tried yet, really looking forward to have wind conditions. I saw Foiltycoon posted on instagram 26.3 knots on art999 with 400 progressive rear. I have not heard good things about these new progressive rear wings, but would like to try them.

I've been looking at the art799. Would be interested to see how you go with it. I would be happy to do anything over 25 knots of speed on a wing. That is my goal

I think it is possible, especially on these art foils. Everyone seems to say they are very fast!

I have been riding art799 my last two sessions with the 420ha rear, ultrashort fus and 90 alu mast.

The first session was on heavy wind conditions and pretty choppy (25knts, 40 gust). Used Vayu 3.4m, felt really really confortable. Art799 feels very smooth and acelerates incredibly. However, dont feel it very fast, with lack of glide and pump. I reach same speed than with art999 and 1099. Pretty fun and tricky in transitions.

Yesterday was a softer windy session, 12-18knts, same foil quiver with Strike 5m. I did same speed mark, didnt reach 40km/h (21.6knt). Obviusly it's a matter of the rider (myself...), not the gear.

However, must say it lifts incredibly, once you are up its behaviour is amazing, no matter what the conditions are. In low wind conditions is surprisingly efficient. Yesterday I was able to make a long pumping way puddling with the wing until reaching the beach due to a shadow of wind, and it surprised me how good it behavied.

I will need more sessions. Now I feel more confortable trying to use it with low wind, because of the easy lift it has.

Due to the no difference of speed with art999 and 1099, I have been thinking on changing it by 899. On surfing the 799 I find it impossible to pump, i think 899 would behave better here. After seeing how the art799 lifts, I think art899 must be like an amazing allround front wing.

I am also thinking on getting a progressive rear, guess ARTs would carve better with them.

I will keep reporting.

Select to expand quote

EmiD said..

DJMax said..

EmiD said..
Really interested issue, thanks for posting! Always asking wingers their top speed, but not everyone cares about this. I really do since I feel winging slower than kitefoiling. Personal records:

1. 22knts on 700hps and 400ha rear, 90 mast, custom board of 80L, Vayu Vving 4m and 15-18knts of wind.

2. 21knts on art999 and 420ha rear, 90 mast Vayu Vving 5.4 on same wind conditions.

Just get art799, but havent tried yet, really looking forward to have wind conditions. I saw Foiltycoon posted on instagram 26.3 knots on art999 with 400 progressive rear. I have not heard good things about these new progressive rear wings, but would like to try them.

I've been looking at the art799. Would be interested to see how you go with it. I would be happy to do anything over 25 knots of speed on a wing. That is my goal

I think it is possible, especially on these art foils. Everyone seems to say they are very fast!

I have been riding art799 my last two sessions with the 420ha rear, ultrashort fus and 90 alu mast.

The first session was on heavy wind conditions and pretty choppy (25knts, 40 gust). Used Vayu 3.4m, felt really really confortable. Art799 feels very smooth and acelerates incredibly. However, dont feel it very fast, with lack of glide and pump. I reach same speed than with art999 and 1099. Pretty fun and tricky in transitions.

Yesterday was a softer windy session, 12-18knts, same foil quiver with Strike 5m. I did same speed mark, didnt reach 40km/h (21.6knt). Obviusly it's a matter of the rider (myself...), not the gear.

However, must say it lifts incredibly, once you are up its behaviour is amazing, no matter what the conditions are. In low wind conditions is surprisingly efficient. Yesterday I was able to make a long pumping way puddling with the wing until reaching the beach due to a shadow of wind, and it surprised me how good it behavied.

I will need more sessions. Now I feel more confortable trying to use it with low wind, because of the easy lift it has.

Due to the no difference of speed with art999 and 1099, I have been thinking on changing it by 899. On surfing the 799 I find it impossible to pump, i think 899 would behave better here. After seeing how the art799 lifts, I think art899 must be like an amazing allround front wing.

I am also thinking on getting a progressive rear, guess ARTs would carve better with them.

I will keep reporting.

If you run the same tail on every front wing, you will see less difference in speed. Match your tail to each front wing to maximize performance.

325 with 799
350 with 899
375 with 999
400 with 1099

is good starting point

"If you run the same tail on every front wing, you will see less difference in speed. Match your tail to each front wing to maximize performance.

325 with 799
350 with 899
375 with 999
400 with 1099"

I'm using a 375 P stab with my 830 HPS on Ultrashort fuse, wondering if It would work better with a 350?

Select to expand quote

JonathanC said..

"If you run the same tail on every front wing, you will see less difference in speed. Match your tail to each front wing to maximize performance.

325 with 799
350 with 899
375 with 999
400 with 1099"

I'm using a 375 P stab with my 830 HPS on Ultrashort fuse, wondering if It would work better with a 350?

P tails are not for speed. 420/380 are, but 380 is ideal. Reports have guys >28 knots. Just need conditions and to send it. Also consider -1 on the tail to counter the stupid massive lift the 799 has.

Select to expand quote

DWF said..

EmiD said..

DJMax said..

EmiD said..
Really interested issue, thanks for posting! Always asking wingers their top speed, but not everyone cares about this. I really do since I feel winging slower than kitefoiling. Personal records:

1. 22knts on 700hps and 400ha rear, 90 mast, custom board of 80L, Vayu Vving 4m and 15-18knts of wind.

2. 21knts on art999 and 420ha rear, 90 mast Vayu Vving 5.4 on same wind conditions.

Just get art799, but havent tried yet, really looking forward to have wind conditions. I saw Foiltycoon posted on instagram 26.3 knots on art999 with 400 progressive rear. I have not heard good things about these new progressive rear wings, but would like to try them.

I've been looking at the art799. Would be interested to see how you go with it. I would be happy to do anything over 25 knots of speed on a wing. That is my goal

I think it is possible, especially on these art foils. Everyone seems to say they are very fast!

I have been riding art799 my last two sessions with the 420ha rear, ultrashort fus and 90 alu mast.

The first session was on heavy wind conditions and pretty choppy (25knts, 40 gust). Used Vayu 3.4m, felt really really confortable. Art799 feels very smooth and acelerates incredibly. However, dont feel it very fast, with lack of glide and pump. I reach same speed than with art999 and 1099. Pretty fun and tricky in transitions.

Yesterday was a softer windy session, 12-18knts, same foil quiver with Strike 5m. I did same speed mark, didnt reach 40km/h (21.6knt). Obviusly it's a matter of the rider (myself...), not the gear.

However, must say it lifts incredibly, once you are up its behaviour is amazing, no matter what the conditions are. In low wind conditions is surprisingly efficient. Yesterday I was able to make a long pumping way puddling with the wing until reaching the beach due to a shadow of wind, and it surprised me how good it behavied.

I will need more sessions. Now I feel more confortable trying to use it with low wind, because of the easy lift it has.

Due to the no difference of speed with art999 and 1099, I have been thinking on changing it by 899. On surfing the 799 I find it impossible to pump, i think 899 would behave better here. After seeing how the art799 lifts, I think art899 must be like an amazing allround front wing.

I am also thinking on getting a progressive rear, guess ARTs would carve better with them.

I will keep reporting.

If you run the same tail on every front wing, you will see less difference in speed. Match your tail to each front wing to maximize performance.

325 with 799
350 with 899
375 with 999
400 with 1099

is good starting point

Thanks for recommendation!

Select to expand quote

King Crash said..

JonathanC said..

"If you run the same tail on every front wing, you will see less difference in speed. Match your tail to each front wing to maximize performance.

325 with 799
350 with 899
375 with 999
400 with 1099"

I'm using a 375 P stab with my 830 HPS on Ultrashort fuse, wondering if It would work better with a 350?

P tails are not for speed. 420/380 are, but 380 is ideal. Reports have guys >28 knots. Just need conditions and to send it. Also consider -1 on the tail to counter the stupid massive lift the 799 has.

799 definetely lifts... thanks! I will try the 380 rear!

anybody know who accurate/inaccurate the GoPro GPS is? I bought a Max so I could use the GPS speedometer overlay. I'm not really into speed sailing, but people always ask me, "how fast do you go on those things?" My answer has always been around 20mph for most people, fast people 25kt, and really fast people 30kt. don't know if my mixing units confuses them or not.

Used the GoPro winging for the first time in light wind and hit 26mph peak speed. Most runs I could hit 23 or 24mph. Wind was light... most guys on 6.5s and 7.0s. I was on Sky Wing 5'0", Unit 4.5, SABFOIL W1000 & S400, Project Cedrus 90cm mast. I'm about 83kg.

Also, what I was interested in was start speed, stall speed, speed through transitions, etc... Seems like my takeoff speed is around 7-8mph, stall speed under that. usually fall under 10mph on a tack, but some I can stay just above that. Fastest jibe bottomed out around 16 or 17mph.

sorry for all the imperial units.

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sunsetsailboards said..
anybody know who accurate/inaccurate the GoPro GPS is? I bought a Max so I could use the GPS speedometer overlay. I'm not really into speed sailing, but people always ask me, "how fast do you go on those things?" My answer has always been around 20mph for most people, fast people 25kt, and really fast people 30kt. don't know if my mixing units confuses them or not.

Used the GoPro winging for the first time in light wind and hit 26mph peak speed. Most runs I could hit 23 or 24mph. Wind was light... most guys on 6.5s and 7.0s. I was on Sky Wing 5'0", Unit 4.5, SABFOIL W1000 & S400, Project Cedrus 90cm mast. I'm about 83kg.

Also, what I was interested in was start speed, stall speed, speed through transitions, etc... Seems like my takeoff speed is around 7-8mph, stall speed under that. usually fall under 10mph on a tack, but some I can stay just above that. Fastest jibe bottomed out around 16 or 17mph.

sorry for all the imperial units.

same story for me. Gopro is supposed to have a more accurate GPS than the apple watch. You were cooking in that footage. How light was the wind? I dont see any white caps.

Gopros (and Garmin cams) do 10hz (10 gps points per second), all other watches do 1hz (1 reading per second) at their highest setting - with the exception of obscure speed watches that some use on this forum.

You're cookin'.

Select to expand quote

JohnnyTsunami said..
Gopros (and Garmin cams) do 10hz (10 gps points per second), all other watches do 1hz (1 reading per second) at their highest setting - with the exception of obscure speed watches that some use on this forum.

You're cookin'.

Which Garmin model can do 10 Hz?

In manual it says that highest accuracy can be get with Fenix 6:
"Every Second recording will record a GPS point once per a second, regardless of direction, speed, heart rate or elevation. Every Second recording will produce highly detailed tracks of your activities. A more detailed track will lead to more accurate speed and distance data".

Apple watches use other things as well, wifi if available, 4G, accelerometers and the GPS. The Garmin Fenix 5 I had was all over the shop.
This is a standard session using strava app:



The max would be on a wave.

Select to expand quote

gription said..

sunsetsailboards said..
anybody know who accurate/inaccurate the GoPro GPS is? I bought a Max so I could use the GPS speedometer overlay. I'm not really into speed sailing, but people always ask me, "how fast do you go on those things?" My answer has always been around 20mph for most people, fast people 25kt, and really fast people 30kt. don't know if my mixing units confuses them or not.

Used the GoPro winging for the first time in light wind and hit 26mph peak speed. Most runs I could hit 23 or 24mph. Wind was light... most guys on 6.5s and 7.0s. I was on Sky Wing 5'0", Unit 4.5, SABFOIL W1000 & S400, Project Cedrus 90cm mast. I'm about 83kg.

Also, what I was interested in was start speed, stall speed, speed through transitions, etc... Seems like my takeoff speed is around 7-8mph, stall speed under that. usually fall under 10mph on a tack, but some I can stay just above that. Fastest jibe bottomed out around 16 or 17mph.

sorry for all the imperial units.

same story for me. Gopro is supposed to have a more accurate GPS than the apple watch. You were cooking in that footage. How light was the wind? I dont see any white caps.

i think the wind was gusting about 15kt maybe a little bit more. i couldn't do a regular jibe b/c the sail would backwind. there was one other guy on a 4.5, but everybody else was on 6.5 or 7.0. There were times I had to wait several minutes for a puff to get going. there's one "blast zone" at this spot where the wind accelerates around/off the cliff... perhaps the wind here was a little bit stronger. Conditions were fast... went the next day which was slightly, and I had lower speed overall. Hit the same top speed, but didn't have the effortless glide just felt a lot harder to push it.

I actually did a "new to me" 360 the first day... I was grabbing the LE handle with my back hand to do a jibe and i was outrunning the wind and towing the wing straight downwind, so I just kept carving around. surprised the hell out of me that it worked so well. super fun way to do a 360 and very uncomplicated if the wind is light and you have good speed..



hit 30mph on the slapper today... freestyle board, 19cm fin, 4.0 sail. definitely have gone much faster than that but never had a GPS with me. kind of fun having a speedometer. going to be interesting to pump the turns on the foil to see if i can keep my speed up better. my W940 seems better at this, at least when riding swells.

Very cool. Thanks for the detailed follow up! Looks like an impressive wing.

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Siksvan said..

JohnnyTsunami said..
Gopros (and Garmin cams) do 10hz (10 gps points per second), all other watches do 1hz (1 reading per second) at their highest setting - with the exception of obscure speed watches that some use on this forum.

You're cookin'.

Which Garmin model can do 10 Hz?

In manual it says that highest accuracy can be get with Fenix 6:
"Every Second recording will record a GPS point once per a second, regardless of direction, speed, heart rate or elevation. Every Second recording will produce highly detailed tracks of your activities. A more detailed track will lead to more accurate speed and distance data".

Garmin cams. The video camera.

Be wary of GoPro's speedometer. Alex Aguerra was posting some tongue in cheek high speed screen grabs from his camera and later mentioned in an interview that they are not at all accurate.
you should try bringing your phone along with another gps app to cross reference. I'm curious!

actually, I use a max and an Apple Watch. Haven't tried the gps overlay with the max. I'll fire that up next session.
I find it hard to believe you were going that fast in those conditions. My PB is like 21mph according to Waterspeed and the wind was 20-30, flat water with Armstrong 925 and a 4M wing. At 21mph it felt fast! Fully powered up bearing off wind on a broad reach.

For speed, I'd think a much smaller front and rear wing is needed. Maybe 1/2 the size most of you use.
Current fast windfoil for slalom range from 370-650 front wings, so stabs 150-220.
I know Sunset Sailboards gas been using a 1000 foil with a 4.0 wing in 10-18 mph, not the formula for high top speeds.

Select to expand quote

MidAtlanticFoil said..
Be wary of GoPro's speedometer. Alex Aguerra was posting some tongue in cheek high speed screen grabs from his camera and later mentioned in an interview that they are not at all accurate.
you should try bringing your phone along with another gps app to cross reference. I'm curious!

actually, I use a max and an Apple Watch. Haven't tried the gps overlay with the max. I'll fire that up next session.
I find it hard to believe you were going that fast in those conditions. My PB is like 21mph according to Waterspeed and the wind was 20-30, flat water with Armstrong 925 and a 4M wing. At 21mph it felt fast! Fully powered up bearing off wind on a broad reach.

Seems like the best way to balance all of this uncertainty is to use average speed over a given distance. I use my gopro and apple watch regularly. Gopro is often higher, but not always.

Select to expand quote

gription said..

MidAtlanticFoil said..
Be wary of GoPro's speedometer. Alex Aguerra was posting some tongue in cheek high speed screen grabs from his camera and later mentioned in an interview that they are not at all accurate.
you should try bringing your phone along with another gps app to cross reference. I'm curious!

actually, I use a max and an Apple Watch. Haven't tried the gps overlay with the max. I'll fire that up next session.
I find it hard to believe you were going that fast in those conditions. My PB is like 21mph according to Waterspeed and the wind was 20-30, flat water with Armstrong 925 and a 4M wing. At 21mph it felt fast! Fully powered up bearing off wind on a broad reach.

Seems like the best way to balance all of this uncertainty is to use average speed over a given distance. I use my gopro and apple watch regularly. Gopro is often higher, but not always.

I like how Waterspeed App (used with apple watch) will give you breakdowns of fastest 100M, 1KM, Best 1 sec, 3 sec, 10 sec ect. bunch of different metrics. You can spot odd surges and delete them (My fastest speed was from one of my first sessions and clearly was from a wipeout or something).

So there is theory on fast setup and there is skill for a setup that need to be take in consideration. I know larger board are more stable, so you can push more the foil and probably had drag. Same with length of fuse and size of stab. So in wing racing they are currently using average of 90 l board according to kd Maui.

now i assume the more skilled will reduce stab and fuse but do someone knows how long or short fuses are on wing racing vs what we are using?
in theory, longer fuse you can reduce the stab and have the same lift(longer lever)

Select to expand quote

NordRoi said..
So there is theory on fast setup and there is skill for a setup that need to be take in consideration. I know larger board are more stable, so you can push more the foil and probably had drag. Same with length of fuse and size of stab. So in wing racing they are currently using average of 90 l board according to kd Maui.

now i assume the more skilled will reduce stab and fuse but do someone knows how long or short fuses are on wing racing vs what we are using?
in theory, longer fuse you can reduce the stab and have the same lift(longer lever)

That is an interesting concept... I don't know what size fuse the pros use for racing...

I know windsurf foils use longer fuselages, I think to give them more lift and pitch stability.

Besides foil drag the drag of the wing will imo an big factor too.I,m (too)close to 100kg and on my 90l board and Sabw1000+399 stab with an 3m really powered up I did a 3 5 sec runs of 42.3/4.4.5/45.7km p/h measured with my Suunto watch. I,m not sure how accurate that thing is so it could be less, but the point I wanna make is that with an 5m and the same foil I never reach that speeds measured with the same watch.
Funny thing is that those speeds feel are a LOT more scary as the 80+ km p/h I did on windsurf gear in the past.

agree with hand wing drag being a big factor... my Unit v2 4.5 feels way faster than my old v1 Unit 4.0 or 3.3... haven't measured w/ GPS, so could all be perceptual BS, but the slipperiness through the air feels much different. People I've demo'd it out to seem to have similar experience w/ respect to efficiency and upwind ability.

will be fun to use an Apple Watch or borrow a Locosys to see what kind of speeds I am eeking out and whether the GoPro GPS is complete BS or not.

Select to expand quote

sunsetsailboards said..
agree with hand wing drag being a big factor... my Unit v2 4.5 feels way faster than my old v1 Unit 4.0 or 3.3... haven't measured w/ GPS, so could all be perceptual BS, but the slipperiness through the air feels much different. People I've demo'd it out to seem to have similar experience w/ respect to efficiency and upwind ability.

will be fun to use an Apple Watch or borrow a Locosys to see what kind of speeds I am eeking out and whether the GoPro GPS is complete BS or not.

I just sailed with inflatable wing on hard snow 44 knots and limit was wind speed not a drag of wing. I'm sure I can make over 50 knots if conditions are right. Maybe lot more on the ice. Surely smaller wings are faster than large ones because of drag.